Describe irish political parties in a nutshell

leahcim

Hi,

I am trying to figure out what each of our political parties stand for.

Would the following be correct?

Fianna Fail :
Believe in lower corporate taxation to generate wealth by creating jobs to pay for social services. Wealthy people pay for private health care etc the less well off get taken care of by the state.

Fine Gael :
Same as Fianna Fail but traditionally had a more rural focus.

PD :
Like Finna Fail but believe more in creating personal wealth to pay for services.

Labour :
Believe in high personal taxation where all social services are paid for by the state.

Green Party :
Like Labour but with an environmental focus.

Sin Fein :
Like Labour but percieved to to be better local activists.

Thanks,
leachim.

bobbyjoe

Describe irish political parties in a nutshell

Squashed really close together shouting "help help I'm trapped in a nutshell"

Sorry

Leaving now....................

oceallachain

I think this is an interesting Question and one that I can't really answer. I never really understood how the large USA could get by with 2 political parties and we have 4 or 5 times more and would ya look at the size of us.

I'd love someone who knew what they were talking about to answer this.

Badabing

I think you got it basicilly spot on, Sinn Fein would be further left than Labour similar to Joe Higgins Socailist party, we know what there against but what are they for in terms of tax, waste management,transport etc...

spanner

i think ff, fg, and labour are all fighting for some space in the centre

IronMan

Sinn Fein like to put the image across they are of the left, but in reality they are fascists, with a private army and a refusal to accept the laws and ethics of the countrry.

gom

Hi leahcim et al,
leahcim, you either vote FF or no one at all. Your desciptions of Irish Political Party ideals are completely well off the mark. What you should do is look at the actions of the parties. Not what you belief to be the situation from reteric or meida reports.

I'll take a shot at it so:

Fianna Fail:
Populist true and true. Do nothing until its too late then blame the Market system. Dancing between Centre and Centre-Right politics. Belief in the use of Kynesist policies in action but never admit to it. Describe themselfs as Republican as they don't really have any unifying image for all the party to follow. Many of the issues TDs focus on are purely local and do so because FF has succeeded in weakening Local democracy especially in Dublin. Very reliant on swing votes.

Fine Gael:
Used to be Left-of-Centre but only on Civil Rights and not economic grounds. Presently and probably for the medium to long-term also a Centre-Right party(more right than FF). Belief in Supply-Side Economics and would probably avoid election spending sprees like FF. FG is not just a Farmers party. However, It has a history of Social Democracy so has a habit of taking Labour votes in rural areas(probably will change after the next general as all the Social Democrats are gone since 2002). PDs are its number one enemy as they have similar policies on crime and budget balancing.

Labour:
History of Democractic Socialism but presently changing into more of a Third Way party. Rebranded to "Fair Society". Labour has no history of running huge fiscal deficits unlike FF and differ from other European Social Democractic parties in that regard. While many in the media(especially the Indo and tony o'reilly) rant about taxes sky rocketing under Labour I think all they would do is remove the loopholes that FF have created such as Tax Free stud farming etc. Historically in the left, Labour is now very comfortible as a Left-of-Centre/Centre-Left party. Populist on Crime. Can claim to have a core vote of 15% of the population. Main rival FF and apathy in the middle classes and SF in the working class.

Sinn Fein:
Is the IRA. Marxist. I would not see them raising any longer for the next 10 years thanks to recent feck ups.

PDs:
Believe in Regressive Taxation, Minimal state involvment and individualisation of society. Neo-Liberial economics through and through. Throw away the key crime policy. Anti-Immigration. Anti-Civil Liberties. The party of those that think they are wealthy. Main enemy is a recession or a more rightwing FG.

BlitzKrieg

shouldnt the historical factors surronding the parties be taken into account in some form?

I mean Fianna Fail was Devalera's party and is seen as repbulican because it was the party which got rid of the treaty etc. And this makes the populist image of the party more accessible.


Fine Gael: Successors to Cumhan na Gheal more right wing, less populist more focused (in my view) on practical economic policies.

Sinn Fien: Historically linked to extreme republican...today has marxist elements.

Roisin Dubh

Fianna Fail: Party with no ideology other than Republicanism. Policies vary depending on Coalition partner, except when they feel the wind is blowing in a particular direction they will follow it.

FG: Party with no ideology other than partitionism and pro-Unionism, and whatever its Coalition partner wants. It's Coalition partner is always Labour so they will not want to rock the boat so they will not try to privatise anything (unfortunately) when in power.

Labour: Socialist dinosaurs whose main driving force is protecting the power of the trade-unions. To this end, they oppose introducing competition against semi-state companies. Supposedly anti-inflation yet seemingly oblivious to the inflationary affects of protecting the monopolies from having to engage in price wars with competitors. VERY liberal on immigration as witnessed by their constant protesting that our asylum-system is somehow too strict, and their opposition to the Citizenship amendment. Labelling those favouring tighter immigration controls as racist, e.g. Labour's Brendan Ryan before the Citizenship poll. Pro abortion rights (I have mixed views on this). Supports Gay civil unions and this is the only really good aspect of the party for me.

PD: Liberal party supporting the right of the Irish consumer to choice what companies provides services for them. Portrayed as fascist by their leftwing opponents. Favouring giving the Irish worker back more of their hard-earned cash, instead of throwing it away on inefficient state programs that, due to a lack of profit motive, have no incentive to spend it wisely. Believes in creating a climate favourable to multinational investment, with low corporation taxes, and freedom from excessive red-tape and excessive trade-union powers. Personally, I feel closest in political ideology to this party, but if they don't put a candidate in my area, I can't vote for them.

SF: Not even a slightly constitutional party. A party whose leaders were largely in the IRA in the past, and whose leaders are alleged to have had involvement in planning the Northern Bank robbery - which did nothing for a "free Ireland". Seems to believe that the IRA is incapable of committing crime. Forever blaming labyrintine conspiracies of British securocrats and Irish political Establishment for allegations against SF. The most leftwing of Irish political parties, supporting high taxes on business which would drive away the multinationals upon which we depend. Claims descent from the Old IRA 1919-1921, which actually is an insult to those who fought a campaign back then which did not primarily target civilians. Fiercely hostile to the EU. Even so, I might have voted for them years ago if I lived in NI, simply to express my intense hatred of the border. But no way down here! And now, I am not sure I could vote for them in NI.

Greens: Good points: Environmentalism and correctly supporting moving Ireland away from pollution and towards renewable energy of the non-nuclear/non-Chernobylesque kind. Bad points:Anti European, too left wing, favouring oppressive taxes on businesses.

There!

ziggy

This post has been deleted.

billy the squid

PD: Liberal party supporting the right of the Irish consumer to choice what companies provides services for them.

yet they allowed foreign companies buy up our local and national independent radio stations. yet the persons right to choice in radio in this country is proportional to the number of people living around you. yeah if the progressive democrats are in favour of competition then lets see it in the broadcasting sector i.e. more local radio stations. Tim o malley promised to address this issue when he was canvassing for the last election, he even went on local unlicenced station RLO to promise it. still no new licences.

Favouring giving the Irish worker back more of their hard-earned cash,

Tell that to the poor bastard who is going to have to pay for medicines that they cannot afford, thanks to mary harneys new KVI medical card. and you can add €40 per anum levy on credit cards, the increase in government charges in general. up something like 104 percent over the last 3 years.(source)

instead of throwing it away on inefficient state programs that, due to a lack of profit motive, have no incentive to spend it wisely.

*cough*port tunnel*cough*LUAS*cough*

both necessary developments but the cost of both spirelled out of controll far beyond what the people building them promised.

Believes in creating a climate favourable to multinational investment,

I'm sure the business people in Dundrum whose shops are being demolished to make way for the international chainstores are singing the praises of the government.

Nuttzz

billy the squid wrote:

yet they allowed foreign companies buy up our local and national independent radio stations. yet the persons right to choice in radio in this country is proportional to the number of people living around you. yeah if the progressive democrats are in favour of competition then lets see it in the broadcasting sector i.e. more local radio stations. Tim o malley promised to address this issue when he was canvassing for the last election, he even went on local unlicenced station RLO to promise it. still no new licences.

this is the communication ministers remit, who happens to be a FF minister

billy the squid wrote:

Tell that to the poor bastard who is going to have to pay for medicines that they cannot afford, thanks to mary harneys new KVI medical card. and you can add €40 per anum levy on credit cards, the increase in government charges in general. up something like 104 percent over the last 3 years.(source)

all public sector charges are controlled by the dept of finance, which happens to be controled by an FF minister

billy the squid wrote:

*cough*port tunnel*cough*LUAS*cough*

*cough* transport *cough* FF *cough*

billy the squid wrote:

I'm sure the business people in Dundrum whose shops are being demolished to make way for the international chainstores are singing the praises of the government.

see Dun Laoghaire/Rathdown County Council for this who allowed the planning on this, not a government decision

logonapr

Fianna Fail :
Traditional, Rural party of the centre. Tolerates corruption & low standards.

Fine Gael :
Even more rural party than FF and hence it attracts farming voters. Doesn't know what it stands for and spends more time opposing whatever FF stands for than trying to be unique

PD :
Splinter from FF. Middle class support and policies tending towards the right

Labour :
A very slightly left wing party that endeavours to attract the working vote by putting forward well heeled candidates

Green Party :
Eccentric policies usually based more on idealism than on practicalities. Why let logic get in the way

Sinn Fein :
Wrap the Green flag around me party that is hugely infiltrated by Thugs & Criminals of all kinds

esperanza

Roisin Dubh wrote:

Greens: Good points: Environmentalism and correctly supporting moving Ireland away from pollution and towards renewable energy of the non-nuclear/non-Chernobylesque kind. Bad points:Anti European, too left wing, favouring oppressive taxes on businesses.

I disagree with your statement that the Irish Green Party is anti-European.

Admittedly, the European Greens tend to either have a pro-European or anti-European stance, namely in Denmark and Germany respectively. In the case of the Irish Greens, however, John Gormley and Patricia Mc Kenna have repeatedly stated that their party is pro-European.

I think you also have to define what kind of Europe the Irish Green Party is opposing or has opposed to date. The EU of today is a Europe where individual countries are losing their voice in a Europe of 25 and growing (Bulgaria, Romania, Turkey and Croatia, next on the list for membership). Also, the Lisbon Agenda, which has the aim of making Europe a counterweight to the United States by strengthening Europe's economic, military and political power on the international stage, has many opponents and quite rightly too.

It is clear that enlargement is one of the strategies employed by the EU in order for the EU to become the US's equal. In my opinion, while European enlargement does offer great opportunities to disadvantaged countries - in fact, many new members see Ireland as a model to follow in terms of economic growth - you have to look closely to see whether these new members will be allowed to make real contributions to the decision-making process in today's Europe.

I think Europe is a good thing, but if smaller countries lose decision-making powers this could have drastic consequences, as power-playing will become primordial in Europe's quest to compete with the US.

If you think the Green Party is anti-European, it is most likely because the party opposes the kind of Europe in construction today: a Europe, in which only the big players make the decisions and the smaller players are powerless.

Sorry, if I haven't supported my statements ... however, this document more or less explains the Greens' opposition to the Nice Treaty and hence, explains why most Irish people view the Green Party as anti-European. A more abstract view of Green Party politics should be adhered to before incorrectly classifying this party.

http://www.pmckenna.com/agenda/treaty/nice/green-position.html

Roisin Dubh

esperanza wrote:

I disagree with your statement that the Irish Green Party is anti-European.

Admittedly, the European Greens tend to either have a pro-European or anti-European stance, namely in Denmark and Germany respectively. In the case of the Irish Greens, however, John Gormley and Patricia Mc Kenna have repeatedly stated that their party is pro-European.

I think you also have to define what kind of Europe the Irish Green Party is opposing or has opposed to date. The EU of today is a Europe where individual countries are losing their voice in a Europe of 25 and growing (Bulgaria, Romania, Turkey and Croatia, next on the list for membership). Also, the Lisbon Agenda, which has the aim of making Europe a counterweight to the United States by strengthening Europe's economic, military and political power on the international stage, has many opponents and quite rightly too.

It is clear that enlargement is one of the strategies employed by the EU in order for the EU to become the US's equal. In my opinion, while European enlargement does offer great opportunities to disadvantaged countries - in fact, many new members see Ireland as a model to follow in terms of economic growth - you have to look closely to see whether these new members will be allowed to make real contributions to the decision-making process in today's Europe.

I think Europe is a good thing, but if smaller countries lose decision-making powers this could have drastic consequences, as power-playing will become primordial in Europe's quest to compete with the US.

If you think the Green Party is anti-European, it is most likely because the party opposes the kind of Europe in construction today: a Europe, in which only the big players make the decisions and the smaller players are powerless.

Sorry, if I haven't supported my statements ... however, this document more or less explains the Greens' opposition to the Nice Treaty and hence, explains why most Irish people view the Green Party as anti-European. A more abstract view of Green Party politics should be adhered to before incorrectly classifying this party.

http://www.pmckenna.com/agenda/treaty/nice/green-position.html

Entitled to your opinion. However, if the Greens are opposed to a counterweight to the US, even in economic/trade terms, then is this not self-defeating, considering their constant criticism of US foreign-policy? I feel that a larger EU, with a larger share of world trade than a US-led trading bloc, will be better able to promote European values of democracy and human rights via trade-sanctions on countries like Israel,Belarus, Burma etc. It's no good for the Greens to make these criticisms of the US while simultaneously trying to frustrate efforts to improve the lot of those harmed by US foreign-policies.

I reject your claim that the big countries are taking over. One of the reasons why the French referendum on the EU Constitution looks like its going to be close is that many French people feel that enlargement means that they no longer have the kind of power their country once had in the smaller EU, since France and Germany can now be outvoted much easier in terms of their initiatives being blocked.

esperanza

Most French people are actually in favour of the EU Constitution. Nikolas Sarkozy , head of the UMP is calling for a "Yes" vote on May 29 and the PS has an aggressive "Yes" campaign. Opposition is coming from, not surprisingly, Le Pen's FN. It is primarily the entry of Turkey into the EU which the French are increasingly opposing.

The language used in the Constitution is incomprehensible for most average French citizens. French legalese is renowned for its ambiguities and high register. So, in reality, the French have little idea about what they are voting for or against.

FTA69

IronMan wrote:

Sinn Fein like to put the image across they are of the left, but in reality they are fascists

So we are "fascists" as well as "Marxists", and people like Dick Roche also label us with capitalist traits eg "Armani Shinners". Perhaps people might want to clarify exactly what we are? To examine these labels:

Facist; often Fascism
A system of government marked by centralization of authority under a dictator, stringent socioeconomic controls, suppression of the opposition through terror and censorship, and typically a policy of belligerent nationalism and racism.
A political philosophy or movement based on or advocating such a system of government.
Oppressive, dictatorial control.

Regarding, dictatorship, do we seek to install Gerry Adams as Das Fuhrer? No we don't.

Do we suppress our opposition through censorship? No, in fact we were victims of that policy ourselves.

Are we an advocate of racism? No, and our policies on and work with immigrants prove that. So we can now safely say Sinn Féin are not "Fascists".

Regarding Marxism;

The political and economic philosophy of Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels in which the concept of class struggle plays a central role in understanding society's allegedly inevitable development from bourgeois oppression under capitalism to a socialist and ultimately classless society.

Now when was the last time Sinn Féin advocated the overthrow of the "bourgeoisie" and the establishment of workers' soviets which were to be used to control the means of production and distribution? When did we last profess to follow the "political and economic philosophy of Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels"?

I think we can also safely say Sinn Féin are not Communist.

Sinn Féin is a left-wing party which seeks to create a unitary Irish state with an equitable social system.

Rock Climber

FTA69 wrote:

So we are "fascists" as well as "Marxists", and people like Dick Roche also label us with capitalist traits eg "Armani Shinners". Perhaps people might want to clarify exactly what we are?

A hypocritical mish mash of all three?

Regarding, dictatorship, do we seek to install Gerry Adams as Das Fuhrer? No we don't.

You seek a 32 county socialist Republic...
Not much of a majority here for the socialist part,the rest is fine, except you pander to people who wanted to bring this about by revolutionary means, ie guerilla warfare without the consent of the people and still do given that they wont call it a day.
So yeah,I'd say that pretty much equates to dictatorship, yeah.

Now when was the last time Sinn Féin advocated the overthrow of the "bourgeoisie" and the establishment of workers' soviets which were to be used to control the means of production and distribution? When did we last profess to follow the "political and economic philosophy of Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels"?

when you created love in ties to Fidel Castro's Cuban regime perhaps...?
Oh wait he runs a dictatorship aswell,a model for all of ye to follow

FTA69

You seek a 32 county socialist Republic...

I thought we were Fascist/Capitalist/Communists?

Not much of a majority here for the socialist part,the rest is fine, except you pander to people who wanted to bring this about by revolutionary means, ie guerilla warfare without the consent of the people and still do given that they wont call it a day.
So yeah,I'd say that pretty much equates to dictatorship, yeah.

Sinn Féin (nor the IRA for that matter) has always professed an equitable social system can only come about through the consent of the people.

Rock Climber

FTA69 wrote:

I thought we were Fascist/Capitalist/Communists?

Well I did say a hypocritical mish mash.
The fascist part comes from your advocacy of IRA punishment killings being justified(and you are here advocating we vote for Sinn Féin aswell) especially in the they danced on his head thread and others,coupled with the fact that Sinn Féin wont declare those type of things a crime.
They'll now say they were wrong but by virtue of not declaring them a crime(and ergo meaning they are not punishable in a transparent democratic way by the state) and thats where the fascist part comes from.

As I say a hypocritical mish mash of all three.

cdebru

FTA69 wrote:

So we are "fascists" as well as "Marxists", and people like Dick Roche also label us with capitalist traits eg "Armani Shinners". Perhaps people might want to clarify exactly what we are? To examine these labels:



Regarding, dictatorship, do we seek to install Gerry Adams as Das Fuhrer? No we don't.

Do we suppress our opposition through censorship? No, in fact we were victims of that policy ourselves.

Are we an advocate of racism? No, and our policies on and work with immigrants prove that. So we can now safely say Sinn Féin are not "Fascists".

Regarding Marxism;



Now when was the last time Sinn Féin advocated the overthrow of the "bourgeoisie" and the establishment of workers' soviets which were to be used to control the means of production and distribution? When did we last profess to follow the "political and economic philosophy of Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels"?

I think we can also safely say Sinn Féin are not Communist.

Sinn Féin is a left-wing party which seeks to create a unitary Irish state with an equitable social system.

not fascist
not communist

but a strong totalitarian streak????

FTA69

The fascist part comes from your advocacy of IRA punishment killings being justified(and you are here advocating we vote for Sinn Féin aswell) especially in the they danced on his head thread and others,coupled with the fact that Sinn Féin wont declare those type of things a crime.

I believe I blatantly pointed out the fact that Sinn Féin opposed such activities and I even provided a link to West Tyrone Sinn Féin condemning it. To actually address the reasons behind such attacks is not equated with fascism.

FTA69

cdebru wrote:

not fascist
not communist

but a strong totalitarian streak????

Such as?

Rock Climber

FTA69 wrote:

I believe I blatantly pointed out the fact that Sinn Féin opposed such activities and I even provided a link to West Tyrone Sinn Féin condemning it. To actually address the reasons behind such attacks is not equated with fascism.

Well you see if you go back and read my post again , you will see that I get the fascist description from your approval of IRA torturing and killing informers and you say this while you also say you are a member of Sinn Féin
That and they not saying such things are crimes ie not punishable by the state but rather left to an IRA kangeroo court.
Now thats closer to fascism than democracy.
It's a hypocritical mish mash of socialism,fascism and communistic dictatorship when you factor in the Castro love in.

FTA69

Ok, so the refusal to condemn the killing of informers makes one a fascist? By that logic the IRB, IRA, Free French and ANC were all "fascists". Fascism is a defined system of government, it isn't a slur to be thrown about by people at those who they might disagree with.

Rock Climber

FTA69 wrote:

Ok, so the refusal to condemn the killing of informers makes one a fascist? By that logic the IRB, IRA, Free French and ANC were all "fascists". Fascism is a defined system of government, it isn't a slur to be thrown about by people at those who they might disagree with.

Well I dont know about those types of statements,I mean the catholic church took part in the spanish inquisition, but that was a long time ago-the catholic church as they exist today are not murderers that I'm aware of.
IRA people who have been convicted of murder are though,albeit people gave them the benefit of the doubt on that for the sake of a peace process,they still are legally people who committed murder for a cause otside of the law and without the will of the people of Ireland behind.
I would think that summarally executing someone outside of the law of the land and proclaiming the right to do so because you are the law of the land when you are not is more of a fascist trait than a democratic one
From dictionary.com

A system of government marked by centralization of authority under a dictator, stringent socioeconomic controls, suppression of the opposition through terror and censorship, and typically a policy of belligerent nationalism and racism.

Now not condemning punishment killings and the missing bodies of the "disappeared" is to not condemn a fascist act.
To call it not a crime is to make calling it wrong hollow as it leaves the say so up to the unelected IRA and not the actual law of the land.
I think the better description would be that Sinn Féin is not a fascist party per say, its an apoligist party for the fascist IRA.

FTA69

Rock Climber wrote:

IRA people who have been convicted of murder are though,albeit people gave them the benefit of the doubt on that for the sake of a peace process,they still are legally people who committed murder for a cause otside of the law and without the will of the people of Ireland behind.

The extra-judicial killing of someone does not automatically equate with fascism at all, and my point still stands, if you apply that logic to South Africa the ANC would be considered "Fascists" as would the 1916 rebels etc. The ANC were outside the "law of the land" as were the 1916 rebels who hadn't the "will of the people behind". The term fascism applies to the fascist system of government and nothing else.

In the definition you posted from dictionary.com a hallmark of fascism is mentioned, that being censorship of opposition views. Are all the Dublin and British Governments from between 1973 and 1993 "fascists" for their censorship campaign? Your definition of the term is too loose to have any credence to be honest.

Rock Climber

FTA69 wrote:

In the definition you posted from dictionary.com a hallmark of fascism is mentioned, that being censorship of opposition views. Are all the Dublin and British Governments from between 1973 and 1993 "fascists" for their censorship campaign? Your definition of the term is too loose to have any credence to be honest.

Well if you want to nit pick, one could argue that Mrs McConville had an opposing view to the IRA on British soldiers, so she got the ultimate censorship , she was murdered.
Regarding section 31, well no they were only understandably censored from the broadcast media, as back then there was even less distinction between the murderers and the politicians than there is now,they kept repeating how good the IRA were for bombing and shooting and the Irish people kept electing governments that supported the broadcast censorship of that message.

The extra-judicial killing of someone does not automatically equate with fascism at all, and my point still stands, if you apply that logic to South Africa the ANC would be considered "Fascists" as would the 1916 rebels etc. The ANC were outside the "law of the land" as were the 1916 rebels who hadn't the "will of the people behind". The term fascism applies to the fascist system of government and nothing else.

I see so you cant be a fascist unless you run a government-thats a new one on me and I suspect, most everybody else aswell.
As regards, your historical examples,I thought I told you that the catholic church were responsible for the spanish inquisition, but that doesnt mean they are all murderers today... they've long long since discontinued the practice.
On the other hand, the IRA released a statement the other day, indicating that they were willing to sumarally shoot 3 men with out a by you or leave you to the law of the land.
Theres also plenty of anecdotal evidence quoted to you in various threads here on this forum of their brutish attitude towards anyone that opposes them.
Now I see you went ahead with your last post yet ignored my clarification of what I thought would be a better description of SF, yes I think they are a mish mash of all three but as for the fascist part...I'll settle for this quote of myself:

Rock Climber wrote:

I think the better description would be that Sinn Féin is not a fascist party per say, its an apoligist party for the fascist IRA.

Ok 11 posts about one party here, where there are enough threads discussing them already.
If this continues the thread will be closed.

cdebru

FTA69 wrote:

Such as?

totalitarian

Of, relating to, being, or imposing a form of government in which the political authority exercises absolute and centralized control over all aspects of life, the individual is subordinated to the state, and opposing political and cultural expression is suppressed

i think that describes some aspects of sinn fein better than the label fascist or communist

political differences and open discussion are not tolerated in sinn fein in general the leadership tells the party what the line is and the membership follows or leaves

various attempted debates on abortion at ard fheis for example were supressed i still don't know if sinn fein has formulated a policy

the GFA there was little or no discussion within sinn fein the leadership decided this was the party line shape up or ship out even though it went against everything sinn fein had being fighting for no discussion


sinn fein complain about political censorship yet they are not very tolerant of opposing views within the nationalist community in the north

the PSNI at the moment they are unacceptable yet we all know that they nearly became acceptable in december and they will be acceptable in a few months once the leadership decide

when the independent republican councillor from newry i believe called for people to pass information on the murder of robert mccartney he was branded a tout by local sinn fein councillors yet when adams says much the same thing he is given a standing ovation

esperanza

Earthman wrote:

Ok 11 posts about one party here, where there are enough threads discussing them already.
If this continues the thread will be closed.

Yeah, I'm sick of this Sinn Fein/IRA thread too! Have a private conversation!