The Slapping Debate.

kleefarr

luckat wrote:

Smack and slap are different? How, please?

Well in our minds, a slap would be used as a form of aggression on an adult, whereas a smack is given as a disciplinary measure for children not as hard as a slap and on the hand or bottom.

luckat wrote:

My own take on the question is that we should actually turn our focus away from prevention and punishment and boldness, and turn it towards the desired behaviour.

There's a method you can use, where you give specific 'points' (expressed as tangible rewards if you like, such as tokens, marbles, dinky cars, stars, or whatever you choose) for specific 'good behaviours'.

These methods are used by us only for purposes of rewarding for achievement and outstanding behaviour, like helping others, not for general behaviour. Don't want to spoil our sons. General behaviour is one that is regarded as the norm, no need to reward that.

luckat wrote:

The same basic methods can be used in all areas where children are learning self-control (which is, in fact, when slapping is used): bedtimes, rudeness, homework, schedules, getting dressed in time, etc.

Complete and utter madness! We would never think of smacking our children in most of the above cases, with exception of rudeness and again that would be only as a last resort and if it was completely unacceptable behaviour where explanations were having no effect and the behaviour continued.

All of the time while being a parent we are hopefully teaching our children how to behave acceptably. Once they are adults we would hope that they would know better and make their own mind up. That is something we are looking forward to. :rolleyes:

I have noticed though, with our two sons, they really don't get smacked very often at all and it seems to be the case that whenever there is a smack we very rarely have to repeat it later on.

I don't know, everyone has their own ways and what they think is best, but the main objective is the same. Children who turn into adults that will be socially acceptable.

In my day, I used to get the same treatment and whilst at boarding school when very naughty used to get the slipper and cane now and again as well, not too often though. :rolleyes: It's done me no harm what so ever.

RainyDay

kleefarr wrote:

It's done me no harm what so ever.

That's debatable. It seems to have numbed your sensibilities regarding hitting very small people, for a start.

But regardless, if that is the best thing you can say about smacking, I think the case is closed. It's just not good enough to say it does no harm.

BostonB

Unless you are going to talk about the hard data from studies, most of this thread is purely anecdotal and your going around in circles on both sides of the argument, and proving nothing.

nesf

BostonB wrote:

Unless you are going to talk about the hard data from studies, most of this thread is purely anecdotal and your going around in circles on both sides of the argument, and proving nothing.

Welcome to parenting in general.

Plus, this is as much an ethical issue as anything else, which while not precluding discussion of studies/data, can be worthwhile debating purely from ideological viewpoints.

OTK

Hitting children is a habit. Probably doesn't do them much harm if you don't hit them too hard. Other methods of disciplining children take more effort. I don't hit my kids but I don't find that I am fighting the urge because I am not in the habit of hitting them.

Parents wil always defend their parenting methods and post-rationalise them. To do otherwise is to admit to being bad people.

Fear and respect are different things. Think of the boss who threatens to fire you every week or dock your pay as opposed to the one who can motivate and inspire loyalty.

Nevyn

New Zealand passes smacking bill
16/05/2007 - 09:03:13

A law that outlaws child beating but does not criminalise parents who use “inconsequential force” was overwhelmingly passed in New Zealand today.

The new law closed a legal loophole in the country’s Crimes Act that allowed “reasonable force” to be used by parents to discipline a child.

That provision had been used as a successful legal defence in child abuse cases in New Zealand courts.

The new law makes it an offence for parents to use force to discipline children; however, it gives police the discretion “not to prosecute complaints ... involving the use of force against a child where the offence is considered so inconsequential there is no public interest in proceeding with a prosecution”.

I wonder what they define as inconsequentail force.

Linford

I would imagine "inconsequential force" as force that does not cause injury or leave a mark on the child.

metrovelvet

Nothing that produces evidence I would imagine.

bored and tired

im not sure how they would define “inconsequential force”. However there was an Interesting debate on TV while ago i think it was late late show but not quite certain, re banning of smacking in ireland. i am interested in parents views on smacking here.

Do you smack, have you smacked. At what age did you start smacking. Would you support total ban or new zealand model.

Nevyn

There have been several very heated threads on this already
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055002150 was the last one.

WindSock

This is good. There is a high rate of infanticide and domestic violence in New Zealand. I think it will help the situation.

Nevyn

Reallly boreds can you link me to some studies on this please ?

WindSock

This is a good website...

http://www.nzfvc.org.nz/NewsItem.aspx?id=95

There are loads of anti violence intitiatives and charitable trusts being set up. The Re elected Labour government are seemingly getting heavy with this issue, along with the Green Party.
New Zealand has the 3rd highest rate of infant mortality in the OECD (I was wrong to say infanticide)

http://www.savethechildren.org.nz/new_zealand/newsroom/child_abuse_deaths.html

Nevyn

I am aware of the infant mortality rates at the main study which came out against co sleeping was a new zeland study, the save the children site doesnt'have any current data.

WindSock

Stats for offences in the last 10 years

New Zealand


Country Reports on Human Rights Practices - 2006
Released by the Bureau of Democracy, Human Rights, and Labor
March 6, 2007



''Child abuse continued to be of concern to the government. The government promoted information sharing between the courts and health and child protection agencies to identify children at risk of abuse. For the period July 2005 through June, there were 20,833 applications to Family Court for guardianship and parenting orders under the Guardianship Act or Care of Children Act and 7,782 applications for protection orders under the Domestic Violence Act.
There were 630 prosecutions and 254 convictions involving assaults on children in the 12-month period ending June 30''.


Thats as recent as I can find at the moment. Considering the population of NZ is at 4.1 Million almost the same as Ireland, I would think this is very high. I do not have statistics like this for here.

spurious

There have been some dreadful high-profile cases in NZ over the past number of years where 'smacking' ended up with a dead child. They have three times the rate of UK child deaths due to maltreatment:
Save the Children report
These reports are very upsetting to read (warning):
http://wairarapa.co.nz/times-age/weekly/2001/lillybing.html
http://tvnz.co.nz/view/page/1118042

BostonB

spurious wrote:

There have been some dreadful high-profile cases in NZ over the past number of years where 'smacking' ended up with a dead child. They have three times the rate of UK child deaths due to maltreatment:
Save the Children report
These reports are very upsetting to read (warning):
http://wairarapa.co.nz/times-age/weekly/2001/lillybing.html
http://tvnz.co.nz/view/page/1118042

Ignoring my own reservations about smacking, and I won't comment on that since that debate goes nowhere. But its a large leap and perhaps even disingenuous to claim smacking ended up with a dead child in these cases. Theres a difference in smacking and beating/scalding a child to death.

...During the two week trial the court heard how they subjected the boy to regular beatings using a baseball bat, vacuum cleaner pipe, rods and a wooden spoon, and punched him in the face....

I can't even quote from the other link its too horrendous. But suffice to say it goes far beyond smacking. You can't claim that smacking directly leads to this level of abuse either, as in the vast majority of cases it doesn't. Thats not meant to be an argument pro smacking either.

ic4564

I am in my 40's, I was raised in the 70's when if a child stepped out of line, they would get spanked. Older children often got the belt, the strop, or the cane.
Both myself and my sisters were punished in this way, and in truth while it was embarrassing and sore at the time, it did none of us any harm. Nor were we unusual, most of the lads and girls in our street got the same.
These days teachers are not allowed to discipline kids, and few parents dare to raise their hands to their kids, and what do we have as a result:

Teens with no repect for anyone or anything
an out of control drug culture
Highest rates of teen pregnancy in europe
Many buses are no go areas because of the teen drinking/smoking/abuse
The higest rate of youth suicide in the world!

I have four kids, two lads and two girls, all grown up now, they were all reared in a good home where if it was needed a slap was given, or indeed on occassion the strap was produced. none of them ever got into any trouble, they all did well in school, and none of them think that they were abused!!

So is it time to return to the tried and tested ways, and bring back the cane?

red_ice

im 23, my sisters kid is 4 and tbh if i had my way her arse would be redraw from slapping when she stepped out of line. Im a firm believer in spanking and id did me the world of good. When i stepped out of line i used to DREAD the consequences. And when they came i would swear never to do that agan.

My sisters kid gets 'the naughty step'. which imo is useless. The child keeps trying her luck then saying 'mammy lets me' when ever she gets told no. I threaten the child with a slap, but due to my position in the family its not my business.

My kids will get a serious slapping for anything they do wrong, but i will never take a blunt instrument to another person regardless of their age, be it a belt, kane or what have you. That will give them ideas.

G&T

My parent's didn't slap us as kid's,
they used the guilt trip method,
Telling us their hearts were broken when we were bold.

This was grand till we were 8,
after that we just thought our parent's were whimp's.

My mother also tried to make our dad the bad guy
"wait till your father get's home"
He hated having to come in from work and give out for something that happened hours before.

They did a good job,none of us ended up in gaol
but neither did we respect them.

Think what ever you do to dicipline, the parent's
need to be very united and both do it together when they can.

gaeilgegrinds

I will never hit my children. It taught me nothing other than what it feels like to feel humiliated. Does not work. Can quite honestly say that all it did to me was severe damage.

barrett1965

Best advice I ever got was - in relation to spanking kids - to pick on someone your own size.

jimmycrackcorm

I believe that spanking is wrong and I dont use it. In simplistic terms I think it just teaches a kid that aggression gets a result.

I see the problem in parents who do not have enough patience. If, as a parent, you can have enough patience to make the consequences last then you'd have a much more positive result. But it's too tempting to get into the ten second lash-out. After all, if as adults, we don't have a punishment system of beating criminals then why is it good enough for our kids?

Nevyn

If a parent is lashing out at a child then that is to my mind abuse.
There is a huge difference between phyical chastisment and phyically abusing your children.

kashi

Spanking children is one of those subjects that people feel very strongly about.......and rightly so. I did child care in college, and I now work in a school as a special needs assistant.

The odd spanking is not classified as child abuse.......child abuse tends to be regular and far more serious than a slap. The most dangerous form of abuse is emotional or mental abuse. That is what we were thought in college. And as for working with kids.....there are days you'd love to strangle some of them. An abuser would......there is the difference. Kids know exactly what buttons to push, and they will.

Children do need discipline, and it needs to be constant. Wether it be both parents doing the same thing, or keeping to that discipline all the time (e.g the naughty step). As for spanking, I know that I was spanked the odd time. But honestly being put to bed was the worst thing ever. Although I never cursed at my dad again when I got a slap for doing it when I was 4!

I think sometimes people spank out of fright. If my child went to run out in front of a car, I would be seriously tempted to spank him/her lightly on the bum. Again I'm only pregnant and I don't have a child yet. I will try not to spank, but it wouldn't surprise me if I did spank at least once. And as for tantrums......... I find ignoring it totally works. Rewards are better than any punishment. Every child is different........so the punishment and reward will be different for each child. Use their personality, and what they like in the decisions.

I remember being a teenager and thinking I knew everything, and my parents knew nothing. Some things never change, and I don't even want to think about when my lil sprog will be a teenager. So I think I'll block that part out for a few years.

Sorry for blabbering on a bit, but esp comparing a spank to child abuse that can kill a child is a bit of an over reaction. I was spanked but I wasn't abused.....there is a difference.

kelle

kashi wrote:

. And as for tantrums......... I find ignoring it totally works. Rewards are better than any punishment. .

When my son took public tantrums, he'd actually run away screaming! That was the form he took, and it was scary if you were in a crowded shopping centre as he'd run out the door and possibly in front of a car if I just simply "ignored" him! I had no other choice except to grab him and carry him out of the place and straight home.
He was a regular tantrum-taker, but he's now 6 and I couldn't ask for a more wonderful son. He got an excellent report from school, he is of great help to me around the house and so good with his 8-month-old sister. And a lot of people told me he was going to be a problem child and adult.
I don't use spanking on my children, but don't criticise parents who use it. To describe somebody who uses it as a controlled form of discipline as a child abuser is taking it too far. You read enough awful stories nowadays about real child abusers and they're on a completely different scale. I got smacked as a child and didn't do me any harm, I would be very angry with anybody that placed my parents on the same par as child abusers.

Incidentally, I've noticed this thread was re-ignited following the "pikeymikey" case - I wonder why?:D

kashi

kelle wrote:

When my son took public tantrums, he'd actually run away screaming! That was the form he took, and it was scary if you were in a crowded shopping centre as he'd run out the door and possibly in front of a car if I just simply "ignored" him! I had no other choice except to grab him and carry him out of the place and straight home.

Wow that must have been scary. Well in fairness there is no way you could ignore him when he was doing that. I meant the throwing themselves to the ground kicking type of tantrums........maybe I should have specified. They can be such little terrors at times.....and know exactly where to throw a wobbler. I'm glad he has outgrown it though kelle.

I have seen some people who are very inconsistent with their kids though, and they are the kids that cause more problems than the ones whose parents are consistent in their discipline.

G&T

kashi wrote:

I have seen some people who are very inconsistent with their kids though, and they are the kids that cause more problems than the ones whose parents are consistent in their discipline.

This is so true

Clytus

I was in the square today doing a bit of christmas shopping. I decided to have a bite to eat and sat down in one of the restraunts. I was half way through my meal when a young family sat at the table right beside me.

Anyway,one of the children ,who was Id guess about 3, wasnt interested in eating her sausages,she just wanted to get down and run around....like kids do...but the mother seemed very agitated...she screamed at "Natalie" to get back over to the table....but when the child refused,the mother walked over,picked her up and slapped the child 3 or 4 times across the front of the hand.

Now...Iv always been of the opinion that a little slap never did me any harm,so theres not too much wrong with it....but this woman seemed intent on causing "pain" to her child...why else would she have slapped more than once.TBH I felt like I should have said something to that woman,but of course the "Mind your own business" attitude kicked in.

But I was wondering what other peoples opinions on smacking were?

utick

well if the kid is running around id say the parent did the right thing. of course the smack has to cause a little pain to be effective and kids are tougher than most adults realise