The Slapping Debate.

arybvtcw0eolkf

nesf wrote: »

I'd have no trouble with you beating a dog away from something if it was necessary. I'd have trouble with you doing it for the sake of it but if you were separating two fighting dogs and lacked any better method etc. The thing is, you're unlikely to get badly scarred separating two fighting toddlers with your bare hands..

Look at my sig!..

For info, I have a Pitbull Terrier and a Staffordshire Bull Terrier. With lots of love & affection both make wonderful pets. Since they were pubs thats all they've received, never once have I raised a hand to either because I honestly and truely believe that nothing positive comes from inflicting hurt and pain.

It works that way with people and animals.

Ickle Magoo

The way I look at it, who do you work harder for? The boss who bullies you, make threats about your pay & conditions & crowds your personal space to intimidate you - or the listening, understanding but no nonsense boss?

I think kids work in much the same way. My two are nearly three & 19 months & they can certainly be a handful but they are going to be boisterous & cheeky & test boundaries because that's what they do at that age - they are not going to stop because I smack them. If I can channel their energy into more positive pursuits than causing havoc (like taking them for huge walks so they have no energy left over to misbehave!) then that's by far the best option afaiac.

There are very few occasions when either have done something that is not my fault anyway. It's my job as a parent to try to ensure they are not put into dangerous situations or given the opportunity to break things. At the moment I think the majority of their mis-behaviour is down to frustration & that's not something I am willing to punish. I can see a time in the future when they are more aware of their actions & by then they will be able to understand consequences like grounding or taking away a favourite toy. Until then, I just try to see the world from their perspective.

mox54

It's very rare I'd smack ones so young, 3 and 19 months, they're learning and sometimes a little slap on the arse might take the sting out of a situation but mostly it makes it worse, it's when they're older that they need a firm hand but not so young!!, imo

Ickle Magoo

I think the older a child is the more they understand danger, reason & consequence & there is even less excuse for smacking, tbh...

nesf

Mairt wrote: »

Look at my sig!..

For info, I have a Pitbull Terrier and a Staffordshire Bull Terrier. With lots of love & affection both make wonderful pets. Since they were pubs thats all they've received, never once have I raised a hand to either because I honestly and truely believe that nothing positive comes from inflicting hurt and pain.

It works that way with people and animals.

My point is that if you had two large dogs who were fighting and where one of them had locked their jaws around the other one's neck then you might have to resort to violence to get it to stop before one of them was killed/seriously hurt. Not a day to day thing, or a way to raise an animal but something that might just come up. Similar to how you might hurt a child pulling them away from a road etc. Occasionally you might need to hurt a child or animal for their own good, though this kind of situation would be very rare and wouldn't justify smacking as a regular part of discipline in either case.

l3LoWnA

Mairt, never noticed you're sig, it's tough how dogs are branded by breed alone, it's very wrong! Anyways, I agree with what you've said onthe smacking subject and your daughters case was gladly diagnosed and it looks like that changed her life around.

I don't agree with smacking routinely. I also have a bully-boss and it's horrible, no-body in work respects this woman and when she's out of the office, no-body does ANY work as it's like all our christmasses come together. It works the same way for a bully-parent who inflicts pain on a child in order for the parent to gain power over the child in the quickest and easiest way possible. It's not only lazy but it's cruel. (I'm talking about parents who smack children regularly, who make it a part of their parenting....)

I don't look-down upon parents who give their children a quick little smack on the hand if they've done something, deliberately, that they know, and have been told over and over again, is dangerous and/or extremely naughty, if they've put themselves in a life-threatening situation for example, even after being warned of the dangers....this should only ever happen rarely though in a normal childs life, and should be avoided if possible. Maybe in a situation, where the parent has got a huge fright (child almost walked onto road or stuck knife in socket) a little slap could be used to, in turn frighten the child (who should not be USED to getting smacked) into never EVER doing that again. I'm not condoning this, but I do understand when a parent might very occasionally use a light smack to put the frighteners on a child never to do a certain thing again.

However, I hate to see mothers or fathers who smack their children simply because they don't adhere to their rules....I mean, sitting in a cafe, those children were bloody bored, bring them home where their toys are, where you can relax in the knowledge that they are away from harm and are safe and let them play, then relax with a coffee yourself. If you can't handle your children without hitting them, don't bring them out into situations where you yourself will be stressed and your children will be acting up through sheer boredom and possibly excitement. Leave them with a childminder or don't go at all.

I hate to see mothers/fathers smacking children in public (mainly on busy steets or shopping centres - no place for children) Personally, I very rarely bring my daughter who is 3, shopping (she HATES it and I understand that completely as I did too when I was a kid) I only ever bring her if I'm nipping in to get one or two things or I plan the trip to suit her needs as well as my own! (ie. toy-shop to have a browse and buy her something cheap which will then keep her occupied whilst I quickly browse for a new top in the clothes shop - it's unfair to expect little children to act like grown-ups and do all your grown-up things with you without getting bored)

The best way to get a child to behave is to give the child attention or divert their attention from whatever situation is causing them to misbehave. A person trying to sit down and have a coffee or something to eat simply can't do this. I know children need to learn manners as they grow up, but a stressful situation like this is not the best place to try and teach them.

On holidays with my daughter this year, she was a dream in every restaurant we went to, she sat, just like the rest of us, enjoying the chat and the food and showing off a bit but having manners and she ate dinner with all of us adults. If she was bored I'd go outside with her for a walk between courses or whatever was needed, I couldn't expect her to enjoy sitting wth us listening to adult conversation and not get a little restless from time to time. I didn't try and stick around chatting and drinking after our meals either, that would have been too much for a 3 year old to handle without getting bored - I'd take her away and we'd do something together while we waited for the others, you just can't expect a child to behave the same way as an adult.

There are so many parents out there today who want these perfect model children who behave like little grown ups. They use very negative methods of power and control with their children, inflicting pain on them in order for the child to behave the way they want to, not just because the child is actually being incredibly naughty. These people need to lighten up and not be so lazy, and realise that children are children and that beating children is wrong. Praise is a far better tool than pain, and in my opinion, it works the same for dogs as children. Praise and reward for the good behaviour, point out that bad behaviour is wrong, certainly, but focus more on the good behaviour and a child gets the idea very quickly. That's the way I work things anyways, there's really no need to inflict pain, there's other ways to deal with misbehaviour.

arybvtcw0eolkf

nesf wrote: »

Occasionally you might need to hurt a child or animal for their own good, .

There's a good way of hurting your child, pray tell?.

Nevyn

I'd soon give a two year old a light smack on the hand then have them put their hand in the fire.

giddyup

A few people are saying things along the lines of - the only thing it teaches is that it's ok to hit blah blah. I got the arse slapped off me on many occasions as a nipper. Never once did I think - hmm well I've just learned that it's ok to slap people or that violence is the way or any cobblers like that. I usually just thought - I'd better not do that again and now I can't watch Mork and Mindy.

Having said that I have a 3.5 yr old and an 18mth'r and never once have I even considered raising a finger to them and I think/hope that will continue. I can't ever imagine them being so out of line that I'd want to strike them. I'd like to think that we're doing a decent job raising them and teaching them along the way what the tipping point is where they need to stop what they are doing.

And on the first post I don't think I'd ever approach someone disciplining their own child unless I felt the kid was in some kind of danger. If I did end up clipping my own kid for whatever reason and someone approached me I wouldn't be long about telling them to fcuk right off.

Ickle Magoo

Thaedydal wrote: »

I'd soon give a two year old a light smack on the hand then have them put their hand in the fire.

See, I'd rather make sure there is no fire my two yr old can put their hand in than punish them for my putting them in the position whereby they can burn themselves...

Nevyn

And you think I would not ?
Some children are beyond persistant to being bloodyminded when they are between 2 to 4.

Ickle Magoo

That's what I mean - fire-guards, turning the fire off, taking child away from fire & distracting them, etc, etc - all better methods of burn prevention than smacking the child for going near a fire imo.

I'm 30 & fires & naked flames hold a certain fascination - for a wee person it must be like magic...:)

kelle

Thaedydal wrote: »

I'd soon give a two year old a light smack on the hand then have them put their hand in the fire.

When the child has grown up, he/she will have long forgotten that light smack but they won't have forgotten if their hand/face was badly burned and scarred.
The same goes for the child running across the road. The child won't forgive you if they end up with horrific injuries or disabilities, but they will have long forgotten the slap that deterred them.
Of course, I avoid the above situations happening by use of buggies, harnesses and fire surrounds. But I would NEVER criticise a parent that slaps with shock in these situations.

Ickle Magoo

I think grabbing a child to prevent them running across a road or yanking them back from a fire is one thing - smacking them for doing something like nearly running into the road or touching a fire is something else. Regardless of precautions my kids have managed to get into scrapes that have involved me grabbing them for their own safety - but I wouldn't smack them for doing something when I allowed the situation to happen in the first place.

I suppose it all comes down to whether you think smacking works as a deterrent to it happening again...in my experience, it doesn't. I have friends who smack their kids & their kids are certainly no better behaved or road/fire savvy than mine...

nesf

Mairt wrote: »

There's a good way of hurting your child, pray tell?.

If I had to grab him and pull him away from an incoming truck or lorry it would be ok if I hurt him while doing it. I might accidentally hurt his shoulder while pulling him back etc.

sunnyjim

kelle wrote: »

Thaedydal wrote:

I'd soon give a two year old a light smack on the hand then have them put their hand in the fire.

When the child has grown up, he/she will have long forgotten that light smack but they won't have forgotten if their hand/face was badly burned and scarred.
The same goes for the child running across the road. The child won't forgive you if they end up with horrific injuries or disabilities, but they will have long forgotten the slap that deterred them.

I have a lot of respect for the small precise points Thaedydal is putting across.

A light slap doesn't have to hurt a child. Kids cry because they are being admonished, and not because they have a searing pain across their hand, no?

Of course, anyone who gives their 10 year old child a wallop off a stupidly frustrated father, or the baby who won't sleep, obviously needs one themselves...

senordingdong

Mairt wrote: »

Ok here's my case. Two examples.

My case first.

As a child I had a terrible temper, I was also terrible in school. I was routinely 'slapped', but sometimes it went further than that. In one case I ended up in the old Richmond hospital (Dublin) after a beating.

As soon as I could I left home, when I turned 18 I joined the army and have had a pretty successful career to date (22yrs later).

My daughter's case..

Pretty similiar to me with a terrible temper and bad school work. Alot of what she was going through I could indentify with, I knew and could feel the fire in her. I used to hug her during her rages, and I felt she knew that I understood.

(We never slapped her, not once, or my son).

Myself and my wife went to the school and asked what kind of help was out there for us. Thankfully we were pointed in the right direction ..

(I'm cutting out alot of the information from this period to keep this short)

After assessment we were told my daughter was probably dyslexic and we were preferred to the National Dyslexic Assoc. for private assessment (best money I've ever spent).

My daughter was dyslexic, and pretty bad too. The people there explained how it was often genetic (on the fathers side) and suggested I was assessed too. GUess what, I was found to be dyslexic too!.

(Sorry about the lenght of this).

As I've been successful in my career I could have taken the view that a slapping never hurt me (except that once) and given my daughter a few slaps and be happy to leave it at that. Except would it have stayed at that?.. No, because she'd have carried it through to her children.

Now my daughter (she's 12) is a completely different child. She's calm, she's articulate, she's doing wonderfully in school (I could go on).

All that we've achieved with my daughter, and my understanding of my dylexia would have been lost had I resorted to violence.

Please excuse the long post, but I tried editing alot out.

Well the only point I can make in that regard is that you didn't bring your daughter to see a specialist because of her outbursts, but because of the underlying problem that was causing her outburtsts.
Bad behaviour has to be disciplined or a child can grow up terribly un-adjusted to the real world.

Nevyn

And disciplining a child and correcting them is what it is about.

How we do this changes with the development of the child.
When a child has reached the stage where they are emotionally attached to the parents we used emotional blackmail to get across to them the impact of their behaviour.

'Don't do that it makes Mammy/Daddy Sad' and we show them we are sad at their behaviour. This should be balanced in at least equal measure of showing them that thier good behaviour makes us happy and that can be sone with praise and hugs.

When they get older and developed reasoning and learn about consequences we teach them that there are certain rules and types of behaviors which are not acceptable and that they have a range of consequences. Ideally these are well known and automatic consequences, kick your sister = 20 minutes times out, throw a tantrum = loose tv/pc/game privileges ect. And the same applies to excellent behaviour it is to be rewarded.

But there is an age where a child has not developed the emotional or logical reasoning required for this. It is the age that they are figuring out boundaries and think they can control them self and the world. I have found from the ages of 2 to 4 that some times there is a need for a smack on the bum or the hand.

Never the face, never a thump, never lashing out in anger, never several slaps.

It is not beating or abusing a child but correcting a child with a consequence and re enforcing what is the correct behaviour, while explaining what they are not allowed do.

If a child can be disciplined in other ways great, if the time out or the naughty chair can work great but there is that age where they don't understand consequences until it is thought to them and a smack can be part of that process.

If a child does not respect and understand your authority by the time they ae 4 you are in for a hell of a struggle with them.

arybvtcw0eolkf

senordingdong wrote: »

Well the only point I can make in that regard is that you didn't bring your daughter to see a specialist because of her outbursts, but because of the underlying problem that was causing her outburtsts.
Bad behaviour has to be disciplined or a child can grow up terribly un-adjusted to the real world.

You know, that has left me stumped for a reply!.

So tell me, how do you re-adjust your children?. I'm not speaking in general terms, I mean you yourself. Tell me about behavioural re-adjustment please?.

senordingdong

You seem to mis-interpret what I said.
What I was saying was that obviously smacking would not have worked in your daughters case and that could have ended terribly if that's how it was dealt with.

But there are more then a few children out there who need this, other type of discipline.

arybvtcw0eolkf

senordingdong wrote: »

You seem to mis-interpret what I said.
What I was saying was that obviously smacking would not have worked in your daughters case and that could have ended terribly if that's how it was dealt with.

But there are more then a few children out there who need this, other type of discipline.

I think we both misunderstood each other.

I think the parents of these children, and I know the type your talking about (or at least I think I do) need some behavioural re-adjustment!.

I'm sure you've seen it, you see the parents and you just know the children don't stand a chance. I think in that case the parents need a lot of supervision too.

*Page*

I dont agree with smacking children...

sometimes when someone isn't in control they resort to hitting (open handed force) and slapping(open handed less force) a child.

stern words to me seem more effective.

Its more a tone rather than screaming and shouting.

Latchy

Totally against smacking children ,seen to much of it growing up in ireland were children were punished for little or nothing and somtimes smacked very hard indeed .Everybody was doing it ,mothers in the street ,in the home ,schools .You cant teach children correctly if they are in fear of being bullied ,yes thats the term i use bullys , the strong picking on the weak and it goes on .I hate bullys

faceman

those who are pro smacking, is it ok for someone else to smack your child?

Zulu

faceman wrote: »

those who are pro smacking, is it ok for someone else to smack your child?

Oooh, good question Faceman!

...and if not - why not? Assuming it was an "appropriate amount of force on the hand/bum".

Nevyn

Define who that person is and what role the play in the childs life.

When I was working and my parents had my son then yes I would not have had a problem with a smack on the hand or on the bum within the parameters of his age and agreed terms for disciplining.

metrovelvet

"This hurts me more than this hurts you." Ok then, lets switch places. How often did I hear that?

It just doesnt work.It can create negative attention seeking.

I wouldnt lift a hand to a child and if anyone lifted theirs to mine, whether my family or not, they'd feel pain so hard they'd wish for an early death.

faceman

Thaedydal wrote: »

Define who that person is and what role the play in the childs life.

When I was working and my parents had my son then yes I would not have had a problem with a smack on the hand or on the bum within the parameters of his age and agreed terms for disciplining.

lets split it into general categories:

- Teachers
- Immediate family
- Extended family
- Gardai
- Friends of the family

I know its a generalised question with generalised categories, but its just to spur the debate further

arybvtcw0eolkf

Thaedydal wrote: »

When I was working and my parents had my son then yes I would not have had a problem with a smack on the hand or on the bum within the parameters of his age and agreed terms for disciplining.

You make all this sound like we enter into a contract with our children, and their peer's/guardians. And this make's you come accross as a very cold and calculated person.

You really can not see that some people, adults who operate with the power of reason, see your action's as violence against the people we love most?.

Nevyn

We do enter into a contract with out children from the moment we are born to raise and rear them to the best of our ability and we strive to learn new skills to be able to do that so that one day they will leave us to live thier own lives as hopefully happy and productive memeber of our society.

I am person who likes to be clear about bounaries that way they don't get stepped over due to 'misunderstanding'. I find it something that serves me and my children well.

I see that different people have different parenting sytles and make choices for them and thier children based on how they choose to live thier lives.

I may not like the idea of new borns or 1 year olds having thier ears peicred that I consider child abuse and mulitlation would never to do my child, but if other people make that choice then it is thier child.