The Slapping Debate.

Zulu

Ludo wrote: »

And when that day arrives there will be lots of very "windy" babies around as parents won't be able to do it properly.

I doubt that very much.

After all if I lightly "slapped" you on the back, I could be done for assault.

"could" being the operative word here. I would safely bet that you wouldn't be prosecuted unless it was assault. To date, have you been done for assault? ...because I'd imagine that through out your life, at some stage or other, you've slapped someone on the back. However did you avoid prosecution? :rolleyes:

All feeding would have to be done in the privacy of your own home with the blinds drawn!

Not feeding Ludo, just abuse.

BostonB

If the child slaps the parent should we make that illegal. How about if a child slaps another child.

tallaght01

Ludo wrote: »

And when that day arrives there will be lots of very "windy" babies around as parents won't be able to do it properly. After all if I lightly "slapped" you on the back, I could be done for assault. I guess all parents would have to find other ways to give their little ones relief for fear of being prosecuted after being reported by some busy body if feeding in public. All feeding would have to be done in the privacy of your own home with the blinds drawn!

?????

I've given adults backslaps when they were choking. The thought of being done for assualt never entered my mind.

BostonB wrote: »

If the child slaps the parent should we make that illegal. How about if a child slaps another child.

No, the situation where a 80kg child is hitting his 10kg buddy is unlikely to arise.

We have to differentiate between normal adults who are A) Big and can and should be held responsible for their actions, and children who are A) Small and Are usually not held accountable in law for their actions.

As a paediatrician I'm biased in favour of maximum protection for kids, especially as there are so many other ways to discipline children that don't involve hitting them.

In our behavioural clinic, about 90% of the kids who have problems with physical aggression have been slapped at home. So, rather than "disciplining" them , we may be pushing them in the opposite direction by sending out the signal that violence is an acceptable way to make someone do what you want.

In the world of the kiddy brain, what mummy and daddy do are what becomes acceptable to the child.

Zulu

+1 Good post Tallagh01.

Jaysoose

I agree with tallagh and Zulu.

BostonB

tallaght01 wrote: »

?????

I've given adults backslaps when they were choking. The thought of being done for assualt never entered my mind.

Wouldn't surprise me in the least, especially somewhere like the US. Maybe I'm watching to many US Law soaps.

tallaght01 wrote: »

...In our behavioural clinic, about 90% of the kids who have problems with physical aggression have been slapped at home. So, rather than "disciplining" them , we may be pushing them in the opposite direction by sending out the signal that violence is an acceptable way to make someone do what you want....

Thats anecdotal story without scientific context or anything to compare it against. For example, what percentage of kids who don't have problems were slapped at home? Is it also 90% is it 10%? Why add that your a paediatrician in a behavioural clinic etc. You could be a free living biker for all I know, who collects butterflies. Its the internet. If you've stats and case studies to prove your point thats a much better way to argue your point IMO.

Theres also the case to be made that many alternatives to slapping could be construed as mental torture or bullying. Is there a corrolation in non physical bullying we hear about, like cyber bullying etc.

Some of the most mal adjusted kids/adults I've seen have been those that were never slapped. I don't take that at face value that this is always the outcome of not slapping kids. Probably the vast majoirty of people alive in the world today were slapped at some point. But I'd assume the vast majority of people don't have problems with physical aggression. I don't take that to mean there isn't a better way either.

faceman

BostonB wrote: »

Probably the vast majoirty of people alive in the world today were slapped at some point. But I'd assume the vast majority of people don't have problems with physical aggression. I don't take that to mean there isn't a better way either.

Even if the majority of people in the world were slapped at some point, it doesnt make it right.

Using violence as a disciplinary method doesnt necessarily instill violent behaviour in all children, but it's hardly a positive tool to help with a child's development. After all it could instill a fear in a child that makes the child never want to upset anyone else for fear of reprisal.

luckat

The definitive answer to this thread: no, it is not illegal to slap your child.

Whether it's right or not is another question.

I've been reading Cottage Dialogues Among the Irish Peasantry by the Kildare Quaker Mary Leadbeater, published in the 18th century. It's very interesting the way the 'model' family have parents who are gentle and forgiving with their children, while the family obviously heading for difficulty have parents who, while willing and loving, are irritable and prone to slap.

Zulu

Hi Luckat, IIRC the thread title has been changed. No one is suggesting it is illegal here, just that it's wrong/should be.

TequilaMockingBird

Zulu wrote: »

Hi Luckat, IIRC the thread title has been changed. No one is suggesting it is illegal here, just that it's wrong/should be.

Thread title is still whether it is illegal or not. The poll is whether you would/wouldn't.

Should of course be illegal.
I would rather cut off my arm than use physical punishment on a child.

Paddyo

Zulu

The title of the thread has not changed since I started it way back then.

As I stated at the begining it was simply a quesiton about the legal status of slapping children. Not whether it is right or wrong to do so. It seems to have developed into somthing completely different.

Not sure where the poll came into all of this - I did not start it.

Paddyo

Nevyn

This topic comes up again and again and again so all the threads were merged.

Einstein

wow, mwga merge...

So tell me...I'm curious, my mam slapped me on the back of the hand or on the leg if I was overly bold as a youngster.

Is that violence? Is that wrong?

In my eyes, absolutley not. And it made dam sure I thought twice about doing that again...
I'll have no problem with giving my kids a slap on the wrist etc if they've been really bold....I'm not gonna punch them around the kitchen for spilling milk (which I have no doubt happens in some households) but don't try and tell me that they're essentially the same thing and are both wrong?!

Paddyo

Thaedydal wrote: »

This topic comes up again and again and again so all the threads were merged.

Fair enough -

Paddyo

Quality

I cannot understand how anyone can say that slapping or hitting a child is an acceptable sort of punishment.

What is right about hitting a child?

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

BostonB wrote: »

If the child slaps the parent should we make that illegal. How about if a child slaps another child.

Seen it happen... then saw the adult slap the child to show that it's wrong.

Could someone in the slapping-is-cool camp PLEASE explain the positives of that one? No? Didn;t think so...

SerialComplaint

Einstein wrote: »

So tell me...I'm curious, my mam slapped me on the back of the hand or on the leg if I was overly bold as a youngster.

Is that violence? Is that wrong?

In my eyes, absolutely not. And it made dam sure I thought twice about doing that again...
I'll have no problem with giving my kids a slap on the wrist etc if they've been really bold....I'm not gonna punch them around the kitchen for spilling milk (which I have no doubt happens in some households) but don't try and tell me that they're essentially the same thing and are both wrong?!

Is it OK for your boss in work to slap you round the face if he reckons you are not up to scratch? Is it OK for me to slap the next shop assistant who doesn't understand my order?

Or perhaps it is just OK to hit little ones?

username123

SerialComplaint wrote: »

Is it OK for your boss in work to slap you round the face if he reckons you are not up to scratch? Is it OK for me to slap the next shop assistant who doesn't understand my order?

Or perhaps it is just OK to hit little ones?

+1

Slapping should not be used as discipline EVER, its about creating boundaries and sticking to them, if you slap a child he/she is going to grow up thinking its ok to raise a hand to someone because of a difference of opinion - and it is not.

Rev Hellfire

I think you'll find that slapping is typically used for only very small children and only then when instant compliance is required. And inconvenient though it might be to the anti-slapping, pro-government regulated parenting lobby a pat on the back of the hand is not the same forceful slap/punch which they wish to imply is the norm.

Lets be honest here small children as in < 5 do not have the reasoning ability of an adult, to compare the two is ludicrous. Picking up and carrying child for example who is in a shop screaming for sweets would be assault if done to an adult, perhaps we should ban that as well. Shouting at children is verbal assault, ban that as well.

Ludo

username123 wrote: »

+1

Slapping should not be used as discipline EVER, its about creating boundaries and sticking to them, if you slap a child he/she is going to grow up thinking its ok to raise a hand to someone because of a difference of opinion - and it is not.

I'm sorry but that is a gross generalisation, has no basis in reality and is completely incorrect. I was slapped on occasion when I was young (as I figure a lot of us were). I have never hit another person and certainly don't think it is ok to raise a hand to anyone because of a difference of opinion or for any other reason other than self defense.

This is why this discussion is so rubbish. People spout complete and utter rubbish and present it as a fact.

As for the crazy slapping a shop assistant argument above, do you not recognise there is a difference between discipling a child and reasoning with an adult. Children of a certain age won't exactly understand a reasoned logical discussion like (some) adults will. Again I am not advocating slapping but the comparisons being used in this discussion are completely irrelevant.

username123

Ludo wrote: »

Children of a certain age won't exactly understand a reasoned logical discussion like (some) adults will.

No - but they similiarly wont understand a slap. Its about adults pushing boundaries too, if an adult slaps a child often enough they MAY push their own boundaries out and end up doing much worse than a slap.

No matter what way you call it, an adult should know better than to slap a child.

As you say Luda - a child under a certain age wont understand verbal reasoning - they wont understand slapping either.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

I think you'll find that slapping is typically used for only very small children and only then when instant compliance is required. And inconvenient though it might be to the anti-slapping, pro-government regulated parenting lobby a pat on the back of the hand is not the same forceful slap/punch which they wish to imply is the norm.
.

So, the smaller the child, the more ok it is to hit...?

The bit in bold: this, I would not class as "slapping".

Ludo wrote: »

I'm sorry but that is a gross generalisation, has no basis in reality and is completely incorrect. I was slapped on occasion when I was young (as I figure a lot of us were). I have never hit another person and certainly don't think it is ok to raise a hand to anyone because of a difference of opinion or for any other reason other than self defense.

This is why this discussion is so rubbish. People spout complete and utter rubbish and present it as a fact.

I was slapped as well and I had a lot of problems with agression in my early teens. On one occasion, my mother hit me for something I hadn't done, I hit back and did enough damage to send her to a doctor.

This is why this discussion is so rubbish. People spout complete and utter rubbish and present it as a fact.

tallaght01

username123 wrote: »

No - but they similiarly wont understand a slap. Its about adults pushing boundaries too, if an adult slaps a child often enough they MAY push their own boundaries out and end up doing much worse than a slap.

No matter what way you call it, an adult should know better than to slap a child.

As you say Luda - a child under a certain age wont understand verbal reasoning - they wont understand slapping either.

nail....on.....head

Zulu

Ludo wrote: »

As for the crazy slapping a shop assistant argument above, do you not recognise there is a difference between discipling a child and reasoning with an adult. Children of a certain age won't exactly understand a reasoned logical discussion like (some) adults will.

And unfortunately thats kinda the point - some adults don't understand the difference and leather the almighty crap out of their children, or slap them for very minor offences.
As it's impossible to police the force of a slap, you have two options: let this type of behaviour continue, or as a society, stop it.
Personally, as other choices exist, I'd opt for them, and side with protecting the minority of minors, from overly aggressive parents. If this means forcing a majority to work harder as parents, or become more creative - so be it.

Rev Hellfire

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

So, the smaller the child, the more ok it is to hit...?

In a nutshell yes, but that said they need to have a certain level of cognitive ability. That said I feel a slap should be the exception, I'd agree that if it is a common occurrence its effectiveness is greatly diminished. I'm sure those of us old enough to have experienced corporal punishment at school can testify to that fact.

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

The bit in bold: this, I would not class as "slapping".

This is the problem with the 'slapping' debate, its all subjective. I would call that a slap, clearly you don't. But its still a level of violence but where is the bar of acceptability set ?

Ludo

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

So, the smaller the child, the more ok it is to hit...?

The bit in bold: this, I would not class as "slapping".

I agree with you but isn't that the problem though...when does a slap" become a "slap"? It may be acceptable to you but others will see it as assault or abuse. Hence this whole long thread going around in circles.

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

I was slapped as well and I had a lot of problems with agression in my early teens. On one occasion, my mother hit me for something I hadn't done, I hit back and did enough damage to send her to a doctor.

This is why this discussion is so rubbish. People spout complete and utter rubbish and present it as a fact.

Thank you for completely ignoring the point. The original post I replied to said being slapped as a child always results in aggressive adults. This is simply not true from personal experience and a gross generalisation. Of course it will happen to some like you. But there are also people who were never slapped as a child who have aggression problems.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Ludo wrote: »

The original post I replied to said being slapped as a child always results in aggressive adults. This is simply not true from personal experience and a gross generalisation. Of course it will happen to some like you. But there are also people who were never slapped as a child who have aggression problems.

This was not ignoring the point, this was simply generalising in the opposite direction to bring about balance.

The thing is this: no one see's it from the child's point of view. A four year old copies what it sees and if it sees children being hit/slapped/whatever then that's what it will do, bringing about not nessecarily violence, but certainly aggression.

Ludo

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

This was not ignoring the point, this was simply generalising in the opposite direction to bring about balance.

I didnt generalise...I was simply pointing out that the original generalisation was incorrect. Of course there are examples of aggression resulting from being "slapped" but the oppisite also applies. Everyone is different and learns behaviour in different ways. Nurture v nature and all that comes into play also.

SerialComplaint

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

Picking up and carrying child for example who is in a shop screaming for sweets would be assault if done to an adult, perhaps we should ban that as well.

Any property owner is entitled to use reasonable force to remove a trespasser from their property.

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

I think you'll find that slapping is typically used for only very small children and only then when instant compliance is required. [...] Lets be honest here small children as in < 5 do not have the reasoning ability of an adult, to compare the two is ludicrous.

Ludo wrote: »

As for the crazy slapping a shop assistant argument above, do you not recognise there is a difference between discipling a child and reasoning with an adult. Children of a certain age won't exactly understand a reasoned logical discussion like (some) adults will.

OK, now I get it - slapping is OK for people with poor understanding or low reasoning ability. So if I find myself having difficulty explaining my requirements to a low-earning SPAR staffer, it is OK for me to slap him around to make sure he gets it. And if I am dealing with adults with learning disabilities, it is OK for me to slap them around if they don't understand me - right?

Rev Hellfire

SerialComplaint wrote: »

OK, now I get it - slapping is OK for people with poor understanding or low reasoning ability. So if I find myself having difficulty explaining my requirements to a low-earning SPAR staffer, it is OK for me to slap him around to make sure he gets it. And if I am dealing with adults with learning disabilities, it is OK for me to slap them around if they don't understand me - right?

I actually believe it is in a situation where they may do themselves harm.
And lets face it that's what this is about, the majority of people who reserve the right to slap do so for situation like that.
Its interesting the way those opposed to slapping use emotive language like 'slapping around' because that's what most people like to do to their children. Find me one post from a poster here who supports slapping them around and I'll cede the point.

ps. nice play with the kripple kard.