The Slapping Debate.

RainyDay

lisa.c wrote:

some times kids need a smack and i do smack my lad if all else fails but more often than not it dosent work and has no effect!!!

Read what you wrote. Read it again. Read it again.

Now tell me again why you hit someone when you know it actually doesn't fix the discipline issue.

Nevyn

This can be a highly emotive topic, please keep the rules in the charter in mind.
You can disagree with out disrespecting the other posters and parents here.
I have yet to ban anyone from this forum and while it is something I would loathe to do I will.

Thaedydal

Vangelis

pchead wrote:

All children were smacked/slapped up to a number of years ago when all this malarkey about cruelty/human rights etc started up. Can we honestly say that kids who were never smacked are better behaved?

We can in many cases. They feel better about themselves, are not so afraid to disappoint their parents, they're not afraid of their parents.

Thank God for human rights.

RainyDay

pchead wrote:

Can we honestly say that kids who were never smacked are better behaved?

Wrong question - The real question is 'Can you honestly say that kids who ARE smacked are better behaved?'

mountainyman

There is no point smacking 2 year olds. They can't form the connection and don't understand that there are norms of behaviour.

Whatever about the long term effects smacking toddlers won't change behaviour.


MM

PJG

mountainyman wrote:

There is no point smacking 2 year olds. They can't form the connection and don't understand that there are norms of behaviour.

Whatever about the long term effects smacking toddlers won't change behaviour.


MM

Smacking 2 year olds is disgraceful, the affects it must have on the child who can’t understand why the parents are doing this to them.

TempestSabre

mountainyman wrote:

There is no point smacking 2 year olds. They can't form the connection and don't understand that there are norms of behaviour.
Whatever about the long term effects smacking toddlers won't change behaviour.
MM

PJG wrote:

Smacking 2 year olds is disgraceful, the affects it must have on the child who can’t understand why the parents are doing this to them.

What studies are you basing that on? 2yrs olds are pretty smart. Mine often says "bold/naughty" to himself when hes dones something wrong, and goes out and sits on the step. Or puts his teddy there. That with no interaction from us. Then theres time when he refuses to go out there, and fights the discipline tooth and nail. He knows what he's doing IMO. Its action/reaction response. I don't think a slap is any different.

Incidentally mine has picked a whole range of Ninja moves from the other toddlers in the creche. Biting, scratching, kicking, punching slapping, and even head butting. We certainly didn't teach him that,and we try not to let him see much TV, and definately nothing with that kinda stuff in it. From my reading on the subject kids in creches tend to do this more often. That said we have a friend who doesn't put their child in a creche, doesn't slap, and their guy still hits out the same as the rest of the kids. IMO hes does it more often with the other kids because hes not used to sharing or mixing.

As always kids tend to be vary different. What works with one doesn't work with another. Also their habits change, so you have to be quick to notice when one technique isn't working and find something else. One thing I saw on the TV (supper nanny or something) is that 2yrs olds have a short attention span, so if you are punishing them, it shouldn't last very long. A minute or two at most. Because by then they've forgotten what they've done. I reckon its bit longer than that for our guy but the principle seems sound.

All that said as a society we do have a growing problem with behavioural problems with kids. It maybe just coincidence that slapping at home and school has deminished at the same time. I dunno if any of you were in school when it was stopped but the kids in mine went willd and it caused huge problems at the time. Discipline in schools is a major problem now. There was a report in the paper about it this week.

luckat

We have a problem with bad behaviour by *adults* too. Go along the city streets any night and you'll see all kinds of misbehaviour, from adult men pissing against walls to people behaving loutishly towards each other.

And the general standard of manners and just *kindness* towards each other seems to be falling, in work and in public anyway. But maybe this is inaccurate observation.

I'd love to do a candid camera show where you put a €100 note on the ground and followed what happened to it - how many people would pick it up and pocket it, how many would pick it up but call a garda, etc.

But in terms of actual crime levels, as far as I know they're dropping.

Anyway, is it wrong to slap a two-year-old? Yes, I think so. A two-year-old may understand a lot, may be bright, but hasn't reached what we used to call "the age of the use of reason", a point at which behaviour is largely subject to the intellect.

TempestSabre

luckat wrote:

....hasn't reached what we used to call "the age of the use of reason", a point at which behaviour is largely subject to the intellect.

Can't find anything on the "age of the use of reason" other then history and religious stuff. Any links to good articles on it?

luckat

No, it is a religious concept, and was also used in theory of legal responsibility in medieval times. The idea was that around 7 you became responsible for your actions; before that, you weren't considered really able to control what you did, or not enough that you could be hanged if you stole a hanky, say. I was using it as shorthand really.

But anyway, the hell with whether it's appropriate to hit a two-year-old or a six-year-old or a 50-year-old or an 80-year-old. It's not appropriate to hit anyone.

Or at least not anyone you like! Do you like your children?

ArthurDent

I've a 4 and 6 year old and won't pretend that I've never slapped them, it's happened very occasionally and on each of those occasions the reason I've swatted their behinds is because I've been totally frustrated in my efforts to get them to behave. It's my failure thats caused me to lash out in frustration, nothing to do with thinking that a quick slap will bring about an improvement in their behavoiur - in fact what it tends to do is a) cause them to get very angry (and rightly so) and b) make them very stubborn and even less ameniable to doing as I ask.

I see it as a failure in my parenting when it happens and is more about me not being able to control myself.


However there is a world of difference between the occasional smack on the bum and systematic corporal punishment, the second is an immediate danger to child (and I've seen kids in the school I'm involved with bruised from being whipped) and should be criminalised, but do you really want to criminalise the former? It's a very difficult one to legislate for.

TempestSabre

luckat wrote:

No, it is a religious concept, and was also used in theory of legal responsibility in medieval times. The idea was that around 7 you became responsible for your actions; before that, you weren't considered really able to control what you did, or not enough that you could be hanged if you stole a hanky, say. I was using it as shorthand really.

...medieval times... and here was I thinking it was some new theory, on child development. Pity. In medival times would we be having this discussion?

luckat wrote:

But anyway, the hell with whether it's appropriate to hit a two-year-old or a six-year-old or a 50-year-old or an 80-year-old. It's not appropriate to hit anyone.

Self defense? :eek:

luckat wrote:

Or at least not anyone you like! Do you like your children?

Ask me in a year.

mountainyman

Saying 'bold' is just a way of getting attention/ approval from you. How do you react when he says it.
Could also be imitative play, you say it to him he says it to Rabbit.
Toddlers are desperate not to upset you but it doesn't EVER occur to them that destroying your CDs might upset you.

Toddlers don't give a **** about being good and there isn't much you can do to change their behaviour though discipline.

Try making him sleep, getting them to play calmly, giving them water and not giving them heavily processed food. Also gibe him time to get out of Tantrums

Hitting him will do no good and some harm so why bother? I'm not talking about hitting someone who nearly runs under a car or sticks his tongue in a light socket or eats glass or anything like that. I mean as punishment for a toddler.

4 and 6 is totally different, They CAN understand why they've been hit. Still don't think you should hit kids though.

MM

Vangelis

A good link that should make parents think with their minds and not their hands.

http://www.endcorporalpunishment.org/pages/frame.html

Look especially under RESEARCH on children's views and effects of corporal punishment.

The children's expressions of the pain they feel when hit is heart-breaking.

Another good link with advise on how to stop hitting: Talk til it stops!

http://www.nspcc.org.uk/html/home/newsandcampaigns/Talk_til_it_stops.htm

I beg all parents who hit their children to read these carefully and try to imagine what it is like for their own children to be hit. Interviews from children from many countries show the same reactions and emotional pain.

End of Corporal Punishment!

Nevyn

Vangellis the links are welcome your atitude is not.
IT is fins to have strongly held beliefs but I will not put up with the condeming of anyone here in such a fashion.
There is a difference between spanking and hitting.
Again this is a very hot topic and while debated and dicussion is welcome vilifing people and parents over this topic is not.

Vangelis

That's not my intention either. I'm just trying to do a little campaigning.
I think it's important to try to influence people - with a positive attitude.
I know this is a sensitive topic, but that is exactly why it needs to be discussed. You express that there is a difference between spanking and hitting. That is your opinion and I don't see any difference. Both are equally painful to the child. Are you discerning between them because of their different natures or because the of the differences in the pain and emotional torture they create? I think the latter one is the most significant, the one that will matter when all comes to an end.

However, I realise that we're all human, we make mistakes, and we have our limits. A difficult child is difficult to handle, but it is my opinion that hitting/spanking is the easy way out. And with little effect.

Has anybody watched Nanny 911? There have been parents who hit their children and because of that the children are angry and they cry. Talking together, making a deal and setting clear rules has a positive effect and the hitting and emotional pain stops. This is a good example that things can be done differently, but it takes hard work. From all parties.

Questions: When parents hit their children, do they hit them in public or in private? If public, why? If private, is that because it feels shameful and one is afraid of being stigmatised? Or for another reason?

RainyDay

Thaedydal wrote:

Vangellis the links are welcome your atitude is not.
IT is fins to have strongly held beliefs but I will not put up with the condeming of anyone here in such a fashion.
There is a difference between spanking and hitting.
Again this is a very hot topic and while debated and dicussion is welcome vilifing people and parents over this topic is not.

Vangellis's post does not condemn or vilify anyone.

luckat

What *is* the difference between spanking and hitting?

**leafing frantically through dictionary**

PJG

Vangelis wrote:

That's not my intention either. I'm just trying to do a little campaigning.
I think it's important to try to influence people - with a positive attitude.
I know this is a sensitive topic, but that is exactly why it needs to be discussed. You express that there is a difference between spanking and hitting. That is your opinion and I don't see any difference. Both are equally painful to the child. Are you discerning between them because of their different natures or because the of the differences in the pain and emotional torture they create? I think the latter one is the most significant, the one that will matter when all comes to an end.

However, I realise that we're all human, we make mistakes, and we have our limits. A difficult child is difficult to handle, but it is my opinion that hitting/spanking is the easy way out. And with little effect.

Has anybody watched Nanny 911? There have been parents who hit their children and because of that the children are angry and they cry. Talking together, making a deal and setting clear rules has a positive effect and the hitting and emotional pain stops. This is a good example that things can be done differently, but it takes hard work. From all parties.

Questions: When parents hit their children, do they hit them in public or in private? If public, why? If private, is that because it feels shameful and one is afraid of being stigmatised? Or for another reason?

I see nothing wrong with either of your posts, as far as I can see you are perfectly entitled to express your opinion like everyone else.

‘no difference between spanking and hitting’. Agreed
‘Both are equally painful to the child.’. Agreed
‘hitting/spanking is the easy way out. And with little effect.’ Agreed.
‘Talking together, making a deal and setting clear rules has a positive effect and the hitting and emotional pain stops.’ Agreed

Vangelis

luckat wrote:

What *is* the difference between spanking and hitting?

**leafing frantically through dictionary**

Have you found any definition? Is there really anything more than a distinction between these two acts other than the way it is done?

The way physical punishment is done, by hitting or spanking, does not make one more acceptable than the other, or better than the other, or worse than the other. They both cause pain and it is the pain that hurts the child, not necessarily the way it is inflicted on the child. The result is what is crucial and will have negative effects on the child: fear, anger, aggressive behaviour. Can I mention more?

McGinty

Ìts my opinion that discipline and smacking seem to be thrown together. I'm not sure about smacking, where it is a bad thing or not, as a parent I don't like doing it, but I'm not against it either. However I do believe in discipline, and I think this is where a lot of parents struggle, myself included (except for the wisdom of some friends and family of mine), we seem to be afraid to challenge and discipline kids, parents and teachers seem to be afraid to say to the child your behaviour is wrong and if you don't change it, the consequences will be x (say sitting on a chair, detention, etc). Parents and others don't seem to do that, because it requires effort and thats the problem, well at least one of them. We have to be consistent, if something is not acceptable, we have to consistently tell the child its not acceptable, yet at the same time maintain their dignity. Nanny 911 is a good example of this, as are other programmes of the same ilk, forget the smacking, a really great piece of advice I got was 'to be the no', as in, I really need to mean no, and that was so true, I have a great relationship with my son, I need to tweak here and there, he continues to try it (who of us doesn't), but by being firm mentally and consistent he learnt the rules and to respect on the whole, without very much smacking, like another poster, |'ve smacked in frustration but could have handled it better.

TempestSabre

Well I can't agree that discipline doesn't work. It obviously does. Everyone learns through copying. Its a valid learning methodology. if you have a kid you see that straight away. I also can't agree that a toddler doesn't know that they are being bold and that they don't want to be good. They aren't stupid. In fact they can be very smart. We all seek approval from others and toddlers are no different. Equally sometimes you just do something bad deliberately even though you know you'll suffer later. Its just human nature.

Are their any issues with emotional punishment, and mental punishment? I'm sure there has too be. Speaking of rules, its the constant repetition of their application, that is the learning process. Basically action=reaction.

luckat

Interesting English article about slaps here:

http://www.neverhitachild.org/hitting.html

Couple of points from it that struck me:

1)

Won't every parent sometimes lose his or her temper and hit their child?

While hitting children remains as acceptable as it is today, the answer is probably `yes'. But do all adults sometimes lose their temper and hit their partner? No - because hitting other adults (or even pets) is beyond the pale. If hitting children was equally unacceptable, most parents would never do it and the few who sometimes did would regret it and try not to. That is all it would take to shift social attitudes towards a new respect for children as people.

and

2)

How often are children hit?

John and Elizabeth Newson's research at Nottingham University's Child Development Research Unit has found that 62 per cent of the random sample of 700 parents interviewed hit their one year-old child; even more hit their four year-old child - and seven per cent of these four year-olds are hit at least once a day.
By the age of seven, at least eight per cent are being hit once a day and a further 33 per cent not less than once a week, 22 per cent of seven your-olds receive corporal punishment with an implement, and 53 per cent have been threatened with an implement: thus three quarters of seven year-olds are either hit or threatened with implements (91 per cent of boys and 62 per cent of girls).
By the age of 11, 18 per cent (22 per cent of boys) are being hit once or more a week and 15 per cent of boys are being punished with an implement.

`The majority of British parents we have interviewed seem to believe that physical punishment is an inevitable and probably necessary aspect of ordinary child upbringing'
-- John and Elizabeth Newson

The Newsons' figures - based as they are on face-to-face interviews - must surely be underestimates. From their most recent interviews they indicate that `there is no reason to suppose that the extent of parental punishment has decreased across the board'. (A 1985 study found almost two-thirds of one-year-old babies being smacked).

luckat

Oh, and definitions - actually I was joking, but let's have a look in the OED:

Spank sb. dial. or colloq. 1785. A smart or sounding blow, exp. one given with the open hand; a slap or smack. b. The sharp sound produced by this 1833

Spank v dial. and colloq. 1727 1 trans. To slap or smack (a person, esp. a child) with the open hand.

Hit, sb. 1450. 1 A blow given to something aimed at.

Hit, vb. To strike .... 7 To smite, wound, hurt.

(I've taken only those meanings that clearly refer to what we're talking about - didn't bother to type out the nautical meaning of spank, for instance. And I didn't bother with the derivations.)

Seems to me that "spank" is just a softer way of saying "hit". Though perhaps the emphasis on "with open hand" is a distinction - is slapping a child across the face "spanking" or "hitting"?

Nevyn

Slaping or striking or hitting any child to the head face or sholders is hugely
depremental to them as it is interpted as an attck on them and thier ego.

Vangelis

TempestSabre wrote:

Well I can't agree that discipline doesn't work. It obviously does. Everyone learns through copying. Its a valid learning methodology. if you have a kid you see that straight away. I also can't agree that a toddler doesn't know that they are being bold and that they don't want to be good. They aren't stupid. In fact they can be very smart. We all seek approval from others and toddlers are no different. Equally sometimes you just do something bad deliberately even though you know you'll suffer later. Its just human nature.

Does the smartness of the child being bold qualify for corporal punishment?

What exactly do you mean by discipline?

What do you do when you see the child become afraid and aggressive?
Do you hit more?

In fair sense, physical pain has mental consequences.
We see that in all age-groups.

luckat, could you find any info on the effects the hitting had on the children from the research?

luckat

Vangelis, did a quick search for newton nottingham and found nothing, then looked for child development unit (using lower case in a search widens the search on Google) and found this study by *Newson* - there's a PDF if you'd like to read the whole thing:

http://www.data-archive.ac.uk/findingData/snDescription.asp?sn=1387

or

http://tinyurl.com/cy8tr

If that doesn't work (and it mightn't because it's one of those .asp results) these are the terms in the Google response, and you could find it using them:

SN 1387 -Child Development Research Unit Longitudinal Study ...
Newson, J., University of Nottingham. Child Development Research Unit Newson, E., University of Nottingham. Child Development Research Unit

Or just email the authors and ask them for a copy.

Charis

I wanted to share my personal sentiments. I do not like to use corporal punishment with my children however, I have found instances where it is necessary, helpful and in their best interests. First, when a young child is reaching to touch a hot object. I have done redirects, moved the child, etc. but I have learned that the most effective discipline with my children, in that situation, is a slap on the hand. I want them to associate a small degree of pain as a consequence in these situations. I would much rather a temporary slap versus a lifetime burn from a hot pot when my back is turned. The latter would require hours of pain in burn treatment and therapy and I have seen people who have been through that. This is not the result of a poor parent simply a normal busy one. I do not agree with disciplining in anger. If I am angry I send my children, 17 months, and 3 to their room for a cooldown period. My son can be placed in his cot. I do believe that when a flick of the mouth for spitting food or a slap on the hand, or spank on the bum is used it is very important to follow it by holding your child and telling them again that you love them and reviewing why they were punished. My 17 month old can point to the oven, or other object and say "no touch." I believe children are much smarter than we give them credit. He is very aware of what he has done and frequently will walk back over and reach for the object(without touching it) just to check and see if I really mean what I say. When I am consistent and say no he then accepts it. If I just move him he keeps walking back and thinks it is a game. Just a few personal experiences as a mom with two little ones.

luckat

Charis, there's an interesting article here

http://www.huggieshappybaby.com/info/bow/article.aspx?article_id=2347&s=MyYahoo

about the touching-a-hot-stove business. A short extract from it:

<< Distract/remove. Hot, dangerous, breakable or not, some attractions are too great to resist. Ann Hardwick’s three kids have all been drawn as toddlers to the electric start on her gas stove. “They were fascinated by the clicking sound it makes when you turn the knob,” she explains. Hardwick told them the stove was “hot” and acted out how it hurts, but what she really needed was to get them interested in something else. A bunch of magnets at toddler height on the fridge sometimes did the trick. “I would tell them that this is a safe game, it won’t hurt them.” Most toddlers are not going to voluntarily tear themselves away from their current obsession and find something else to do. You need to get creative and catch their interest.

Please don’t slap. With the best teaching techniques and childproofing in the world, a healthy toddler will still find many unsuitable things to get into, require fairly constant parental vigilance and cause an occasional minor disaster. And as Selena Amati, mom to 28-month-old Sophina, says, “It’s very frustrating when you’re used to dealing with adults who understand a request and respect your wishes. Toddlers are different creatures altogether.”

When patience frays, some parents are tempted to slap those busy little hands. Others believe the negative association (stove equals pain) will shortcut the teaching process. But hitting is not a humane or effective way to teach, says Robertson. Think about it: The pain is not coming from the stove, but from the parent. What the toddler learns, says Robertson, “is to fear the parent.” Bear in mind that toddlers learn by mimicking us. You may succeed in frightening your child out of touching the stove, only to find you have a problem with her smacking the new baby!

Amati knows this is a relatively short phase. “In the end, all I can do is stay calm, remain consistent with the boundaries and try to distract her quickly when something gets her attention that should not. That and keep plenty of cleaning supplies in the house.”>>

Vangelis

Luckat, the quality of the PDF-file is poor. It's hard to read the letters.
But they will probably do more good to someone who has kids than me.
Anyways, the last article was very informative, thanks!

Edit for good phrase in the article: "Bear in mind that toddlers learn by mimicking us. You may succeed in frightening your child out of touching the stove, only to find you have a problem with her smacking the new baby!"