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The Slapping Debate.

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    #602
    tallaght01
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,778 ✭✭✭tallaght01


    BostonB wrote: »
    I don't know who you mean by society?

    Perhaps I should have been more specific in my reply. In poorer countries, (2nd/3rd world) lots of children work, and often are the main bread winners if theres no welfare payments. Its either that or starve. Probably a lot things in an Irish home have been touched by a child labour at some point.

    Lots of our (mine anyway) parents worked as kids, and personally I worked a bit when I was a kid too. It was just expected, if not a economic necessity


    Society is society, dude. We're all a part of it. I'm pretty confident society wouldn't tolerate sending kids up chimneys nowadays, but I could be wrong, but I think we've moved on.
    If you're talking about developing coutries,then fair enough, though. There's a lot of things that are tolerated in, say, sub-saharan Africa that we would get pretty uppity at.. But let's compare like with like.


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    #603
    Ludo
    Registered Users Posts: 5,015 ✭✭✭Ludo


    SerialComplaint wrote: »
    I mean to follow the recommendations of the happy-slappers on this thread - slap them enough to beat reason and understanding into them. If it is OK to do this to kids, then why not adults?

    While ignoring the trolling aspect of this post, I would like to ask what exactly is your alternative to slapping? Timeouts maybe? Send them to their room? What if they refuse to stay in there? Do you shout at them (is this not verbal assault?)

    If you "force" them to stay in their room as a timeout, is this not holding them against their will. Do this with an adult and it could be called false imprisonment? Are you not treating kids different to adults simply by punishing them at all.

    Again..not advocating slapping but when people use the argument of not doing it to kids as you wouldn't do it to an adult it just doesn't make sense...kids are differnet so that argument is irrelevant.


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    #604
    Zulu
    Registered Users Posts: 10,965 ✭✭✭✭Zulu


    Not at all. If an adult breaks the law, they pay a fine or go to gaol.
    If a child breaks the "law", you treat them the same. Fine is taking away the Playstation, imprisionment is confining them to their room.


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    #605
    luckat
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,366 ✭✭✭luckat


    Surely the main thing in rearing children should be to have a calm, gentle atmosphere, and to teach your children the right way by example?

    There should be no need to turn on your child with slaps.


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    #606
    BostonB
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,056 ✭✭✭✭BostonB


    tallaght01 wrote: »
    Society is society, dude. We're all a part of it. I'm pretty confident society wouldn't tolerate sending kids up chimneys nowadays, but I could be wrong, but I think we've moved on.
    If you're talking about developing coutries,then fair enough, though. There's a lot of things that are tolerated in, say, sub-saharan Africa that we would get pretty uppity at.. But let's compare like with like.

    I've entirely lost track (and interest tbh) of why we're talking about child labour tbh. :D


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    #607
    BostonB
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,056 ✭✭✭✭BostonB


    luckat wrote: »
    Surely the main thing in rearing children should be to have a calm, gentle atmosphere, and to teach your children the right way by example?

    Even with the best intentions its not always going to work out like that unless you have a very passive child. Few are. Theres going to be bad days.
    luckat wrote: »
    There should be no need to turn on your child with slaps.

    Some would argue if your turn on your child and lock/imprison them in a room, thats not right either. Everything can be taken to extremes.


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    #608
    luckat
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,366 ✭✭✭luckat


    Putting words in my mouth. I didn't suggest locking up any child!

    It's not really a counsel of perfection to ask parents to be calm and pleasant and loving with their children.

    Most boldness can be circumvented before it happens. Yes, there will be tough days, but you can get through them without a slap.


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    #609
    BostonB
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,056 ✭✭✭✭BostonB


    Putting words in my mouth. I didn't say you personally did. :)

    I can see how when you're at the end of your wick, exhausted after months of practicially no sleep. Someone telling you to be calm and pleasant just works. Ummm...

    Its not the "most of the time" thats the problem though. Its true you don't need to slap. To quote someone earlier, mental torture and crippling emotional cruelty is just as effective, probably more.

    Dunno if you'd get away with putting an adult on a step in the office for 20 mins though.


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    #610
    luckat
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,366 ✭✭✭luckat


    Torture and crippling emotional cruelty don't work. Putting people in rooms alone don't work. (citation: prisons) Putting people on steps until they're good don't work. (citation: prisons)

    What does work is just changing how the family lives, so things are calm, quiet and gentle, and everyone's on the same side. You don't need conflict. There doesn't have to be conflict. You can work it out.


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    #611
    Zulu
    Registered Users Posts: 10,965 ✭✭✭✭Zulu


    BostonB wrote: »
    I can see how when you're at the end of your wick, exhausted after months of practicially no sleep. Someone telling you to be calm and pleasant just works. Ummm...
    ...And yet you'd advocate that same person to administer a few "gental pats" across the legs of a minor? :rolleyes:

    You see this always comes back to the same things: if we all knew it was ok to slap minors, how come we have a problem when someone else other than the parent slaps them?
    Why did we abolish corporal punishment? Who better to determine if a child needs a slap than someone who has a degree in educating them!

    We don't let strangers or teachers slap children because we know it's wrong. We don't let strangers or teachers slap children because we know a minority will be excessive.
    We shouldn't let parents slap children because we know a minority will be excessive. ...and alternatives exist.


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    #612
    BostonB
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,056 ✭✭✭✭BostonB


    Even in Star Trek theres conflict. :)


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    #613
    Zulu
    Registered Users Posts: 10,965 ✭✭✭✭Zulu


    ???


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    #614
    topcelt
    Registered Users Posts: 25 ✭topcelt


    as far as i know its not illegal in Ireland, and its a dangerous road to go down.
    i live in New Zealand and they recently passed this law, and a man who clipped his son on his ear has a criminal record. his son who is 3 was on his bike and went to cycle onto the road and did not heed his fathers shout to stop, so he rightly got a smack.
    this law will breed a generation of people who will hold society to ransom because they are used to getting there way.
    the law was changed in nz to stop kids getting beaten, but the people who do that are not going to stop beating their kids . big difference a slap and a beating


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    #615
    tallaght01
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,778 ✭✭✭tallaght01


    BostonB wrote: »
    I've entirely lost track (and interest tbh) of why we're talking about child labour tbh. :D

    I was making the point things to kids int he past doesn't make it right nowadays.
    topcelt wrote: »
    as far as i know its not illegal in Ireland, and its a dangerous road to go down.
    i live in New Zealand and they recently passed this law, and a man who clipped his son on his ear has a criminal record. his son who is 3 was on his bike and went to cycle onto the road and did not heed his fathers shout to stop, so he rightly got a smack.
    this law will breed a generation of people who will hold society to ransom because they are used to getting there way.
    the law was changed in nz to stop kids getting beaten, but the people who do that are not going to stop beating their kids . big difference a slap and a beating

    A) The bold underlined bit shows where we would have a fundamental disagreement.

    B) You're assuming that there's no other way to discipline children, if you htink that by not slapping them they're going to be used to getting their own way all the time. Most people who work with kids would disagree strongly with that sentiment.
    BostonB wrote: »
    Dunno if you'd get away with putting an adult on a step in the office for 20 mins though.

    I don't even understand that point. You wouldn't get away with giving someone in your office a bath against their will either. But we still bathe kids who don't like bath time.


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    #616
    luckat
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,366 ✭✭✭luckat


    topcelt wrote: »
    this law will breed a generation of people who will hold society to ransom because they are used to getting there way.

    Work in prisons for a while, topcelt, and you'll come to realise that the people who land in there, especially those in for violent offences, are people who have been slapped, not people brought up gently.


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    #617
    BostonB
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,056 ✭✭✭✭BostonB


    Zulu wrote: »
    ...And yet you'd advocate that same person to administer a few "gental pats" across the legs of a minor? :rolleyes:....

    Where did I say that?


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    #618
    BostonB
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,056 ✭✭✭✭BostonB


    tallaght01 wrote: »
    I was making the point things to kids int he past doesn't make it right nowadays.

    I was making the point that its about economics. If people were poor enough, we'd see kids working here again. As a last resort obviously.
    tallaght01 wrote: »
    I don't even understand that point. You wouldn't get away with giving someone in your office a bath against their will either. But we still bathe kids who don't like bath time.

    The point was made that you wouldn't slap an adult, I was making a point that many of the alternatives you couldn't do to an adult either.


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    #619
    Zulu
    Registered Users Posts: 10,965 ✭✭✭✭Zulu


    BostonB wrote: »
    Where did I say that?
    My apologies - that's what I understood you were trying to get at.


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    #620
    BostonB
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,056 ✭✭✭✭BostonB


    luckat wrote: »
    Work in prisons for a while, topcelt, and you'll come to realise that the people who land in there, especially those in for violent offences, are people who have been slapped, not people brought up gently.

    Everyone in prision has been slapped. Interesting. I wonder how slapping effects white collar crime, or theft etc. Have to say in a society where slapping is no longer the norm, in general, violence in society seems to be getting worse not better. Especially with children and minors. Is this what you'd expect? Maybe its just reported more now.


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    #621
    BostonB
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,056 ✭✭✭✭BostonB


    Zulu wrote: »
    My apologies - that's what I understood you were trying to get at.

    Fair nuff. I was only commenting that most people don't react well to advice when they are in a foul humour. Kids or no kids.


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    #622
    luckat
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,366 ✭✭✭luckat


    Oh, BostonB, do you really think society's violence is becoming worse?


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    #623
    BostonB
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,056 ✭✭✭✭BostonB


    luckat wrote: »
    Oh, BostonB, do you really think society's violence is becoming worse?

    I asked you what you thought :cool:. Expert Group on Crime says from 1950 to 1998 reported crime increased by 212%. Pretty much on par with other countries. AFAIK, though I haven't read much on the subject.


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    #624
    *melanie*
    Closed Accounts Posts: 207 ✭✭*melanie*


    i dont agree with slapping at all...there are other means of getting your kid to listen and learn what is right and wrong.like sitting them down and telling them how bold they were and why you feel this way.this will make them understand better.a slap will just scare them,but they wont fully understand why or how angry you really are without talking the problem over...well thats just my opinion anyway. i was slapped as a kid a lot...and sometimes unfortunatly it can easily get out of hand,and soon become proper abuse.


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    #625
    topcelt
    Registered Users Posts: 25 ✭topcelt


    luckat wrote: »
    Work in prisons for a while, topcelt, and you'll come to realise that the people who land in there, especially those in for violent offences, are people who have been slapped, not people brought up gently.
    prisons are too soft these days bring back the chain gangs.
    i was slapped as a child, the last time when i was 14 and i raised my hand to hit my father and i deserved it. there is a big difference between a slap for discipline and a beating and people need to wake up and stop beeing so pc


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    #626
    Zulu
    Registered Users Posts: 10,965 ✭✭✭✭Zulu


    topcelt wrote: »
    ...and i raised my hand to hit my father and i deserved it.
    It's interesting how your reaction to being slapped was to strike back.


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    #627
    MJOR
    Registered Users Posts: 1,796 ✭✭✭MJOR


    I think an old clip round the ear is no harm


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    #628
    Nevyn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 43,045 ✭✭✭✭Nevyn


    Actually I think that is one of the worse places to smack/slap/physically chastise a child.
    A blow to the face or head translates a direct attack on them personally and their identity
    there is a big difference between that and a slap/tap delivered to the hand which they have been made hold out.


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    #629
    topcelt
    Registered Users Posts: 25 ✭topcelt


    Zulu wrote: »
    It's interesting how your reaction to being slapped was to strike back.
    i went to hit him first not as a reaction to him slapping me
    thats why i said i deseved it


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    #630
    Zulu
    Registered Users Posts: 10,965 ✭✭✭✭Zulu


    why did you want to hit him? Have you ever considered that you were only following his example?


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    #631
    topcelt
    Registered Users Posts: 25 ✭topcelt


    Zulu wrote: »
    why did you want to hit him? Have you ever considered that you were only following his example?
    long story, caught doing stuff i should not have been doing. the last time before that would have been at least 6 or 7 years. i was never slapped for nothing. my parents are more than i could have asked for. because of them myself and bros & sisters are all productive members of society. all of us working and looking after our families.


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