The Slapping Debate.

marcmc4

I had a discussion with a friend of mine yesterday about his child rearing practices after I saw him take of his belt and use it to beat his 12 year old son. In fairness it wasnt a very hard thrashing that the boy got and it was over his clothes but I kind of felt uncomfortable to witness such discipline in this day and age.
I know as a younstger I would often have been on the receiving end of my dads belt and so to would my friend, but we grew up at a very different time. I raised the issue with my friend and told him I did not think that belting a 12 year old was appropriate but he mentioned in his opinion its the only way to get results.
Are there other parents out there who agree? I have to admit I do spank my own kids but I would never use an implent like a belt.

Marc Mc

Zulu

marcmc4 wrote: »

I had a discussion with a friend of mine yesterday about his child rearing practices after I saw him take of his belt and use it to beat his 12 year old son. In fairness it wasnt a very hard thrashing that the boy got and it was over his clothes but I kind of felt uncomfortable to witness such discipline in this day and age.
I know as a younstger I would often have been on the receiving end of my dads belt and so to would my friend, but we grew up at a very different time. I raised the issue with my friend and told him I did not think that belting a 12 year old was appropriate but he mentioned in his opinion its the only way to get results.
Are there other parents out there who agree? I have to admit I do spank my own kids but I would never use an implent like a belt.

Marc Mc

but sure why not? Why not use a belt, why not use a stick/broom/hurl?? I mean so long as it's only a gental tap - and sure there's a nappy to cuson it on smaller children - what's the problem indeed.

I'd have major reservations about any person that would hit a child with a belt.

di11on

Zulu wrote: »

I'd have major reservations about any person that would hit a child with a belt.

Absolutely. Smacking is one thing, but I'll never understand how parents can use weapons on their children.

Lilyblue

Nah wouldn't be me. I did however smack our eldest on the hand the first time he said a bad word and he never said one again and he is 8 now! I haven't had reason to smack since thank god!!

lostinnappies

Paddyo wrote: »

Hi

I was having a discussion with some freinds and slapping of children came up.
Some people mentioned that slapping children is illegal in Ireland. I was wondering if this is the case and if so can someone point me a link to where this is made clear.

I dont want this to be a discussion on the moral rights or wrongs of slapping. I am just looking for some factual information.

I have looked but cannot find anything which would support that it is in fact illegal.

Many thanks
Paddyo

Just answering the original post here so sorry if i've repeated anything.

Slapping is not illegal in Ireland or Uk
http://www.nospank.net/n-o61r.htm
ISPCC do support it. I have never nor will I ever (try) to slap my children. If I can do it I dont see why other parents see the need to physically punish their children. I do understand how parents can lose the rag and smack a child, but not to use it as a form of discipline. A parent who strikes out is a parent who has lost control and surves no purpose other then to make the child scared of you. How and ever, parents shouldnt be condemned if they do lose it on occasion ... we are all human after all. Perhaps there should be a ban on excessive slapping.

luckat

Interesting study here:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/4429706.stm


Smacking's impact 'same globally'

Children who are smacked are more likely than those who are not to become aggressive and anxious, no matter what the cultural norm, a study says.

A global research team studied 336 families across six countries - some of which accepted smacking as legitimate discipline and some which did not.

It found smacking resulted in more behavioural problems in all countries.

(snip)

BostonB

I'm not a fan of smacking. But even I can see that there might be other factors like the enviroment, being as much a factor in some of those undeveloped countries.

nesf

luckat wrote: »

Interesting study here:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/4429706.stm


Smacking's impact 'same globally'

Children who are smacked are more likely than those who are not to become aggressive and anxious, no matter what the cultural norm, a study says.

A global research team studied 336 families across six countries - some of which accepted smacking as legitimate discipline and some which did not.

It found smacking resulted in more behavioural problems in all countries.

(snip)

Meh, sample size of 366. As much as I find myself coming around to support a ban on physical punishment I don't feel that studies of only a couple of hundred are particularly useful, especially when they're spread over six countries.

Quackles

I have given my son a slap on the hand or bum when he was bold. Every single time, I end up upset with myself. It's just not worth it, and it's really not effective. And I would never, ever use an implement.

IpreDictDeatH

What sort of idiot wants to teach their child that violence solves problems? Thats ALL slapping achieves.

Nevyn

IpreDictDeatH I suggest you read the charter of this forum.
If you disagree with how other's choose to parent thier children then fine but
please express it in away which is not insulting or abusive.

KittyeeTrix

di11on wrote: »

Absolutely. Smacking is one thing, but I'll never understand how parents can use weapons on their children.

Totally agree with you. I have in the past smacked my children and I must admit that in times it was done more out of temper and a loss of control than a contolled reaction.
I however, could not ever use an implement on them. I myself was well punished as a child with race tracks, shoes and even bamboo canes. In retrospect it did me no harm and I don't hold any ill feelings towards my mum for it. Our parents lived in different times and did not have access to books, internet and even programmes like "supernanny" to help them out.
I do think tho' that we now live in a world where parents are not sure when or even how to handle their kids bad behaviour. In many houses we now have a situation where the parents have no control and sometimes no respect, whether this is down to the lack of physical punishment is debatable but I for one do think that children are bringing this lack of respect into the outside world and maybe the odd well meaning smack might not be such a bad thing in the long term!!!!!!!!!!!
That said if you can foster a situation of control and respect in the house without smacking, I would defo prefer it

IpreDictDeatH

Thaedydal wrote: »

IpreDictDeatH I suggest you read the charter of this forum.
If you disagree with how other's choose to parent thier children then fine but
please express it in away which is not insulting or abusive.

Its my opinion that people who think that slapping their child is an acceptable or useful form of punishment are idiotic. Its an idiotic idea to think that it works effectively. I never singled any poster out in my reply, just gave my honest opinion that i think its idiotic to slap your child.

luckat

An immense 30-year study of the effects of smacking:

http://tinyurl.com/coo3wf

The effects of parental corporal punishment on children
by
Elizabeth Thompson Gershoff, Arizona State University

Dr Elizabeth Thompson Gershoff of Arizona State University has conducted a "meta-analysis", pulling together the findings from 84 international studies on corporal punishment, involving nearly 40,000 subjects. (2) The studies were chosen from academic journals, books and unpublished dissertations on the basis of their ability to shed light on the actual effects of corporal punishment, as opposed to people's opinions about it.

A striking aspect of her review is the consistency of findings. 96% of studies found harmful correlations with corporal punishment, including greater probability of suffering child abuse; greater childhood and adult aggressiveness; increased criminal and anti-social behaviour in childhood and adulthood; decreases in children's inner morality; impaired mental health; and increased abuse of their children or spouses when punished individuals become adults. A poignant effect for parents who mean well in using corporal punishment is the loss of quality of relationship with their child.

DeVore

I think you need to be careful when anything refers to "correlations".

There are strong correlations between A:"being black" and B:"ending up on death row" for example. IE: "A" and "B" are commonly found together.

"Causation" is a completely different thing. That is where "A" causes "B" and I'm far from suggesting that in the above example. (and extreme one, used for clarity).

DeV.

axel rose

OK I didn't read the whole thread, (do you blame me ). I completely disagree with slapping and beating anyone including children.

However if I am completely honest I don't know what I would do if I saw my son about to do something dangerous. To specify I mean about to pull a cup of coffee on him, or run out onto the road. Now don't get me wrong I don't plan to smack him (now note smack-not hit/beat/assault), I just don't think I can plan what my reaction would be.

I also disagree with outlawing this practice as I don't think it will stop the practice of abuse and would most likely hang those who are in the situation I just described. An abuser is going to abuse regardless of the law. (And BTW I am speaking as professional care worker!)

luckat

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/health/2009/0714/1224250632403.html

(Piece by child psychologist David Coleman in the Irish Times today)

ASK THE EXPERT: Smacking teaches children to lash out when things don’t go their way, writes DAVID COLEMAN .

I HAVE A two- and three-year-old. How do you discipline when the younger one is the bully, and has a very demanding personality? She throws tantrums when disciplined while the older one at least accepts that she has been bold. I discipline them in the same way. Mind you, I have to threaten, punish, or spank them before they listen, and they are constantly fighting. Please give me some advice before I lose all my hair with them.

RELYING ON punishment or the threat of punishment as your only way of dealing with your children’s behaviour is a very disheartening position to be in. It can feel like you are trapped in a very negative cycle of interaction with them. They get frustrated, they fight; when they fight, you get cross; if you get cross, you punish; once you punish, they get more upset; as they get more upset and frustrated, you punish further and so it will continue.

I am choosing to take your query as a plea to find a way to break this negative cycle and I am delighted to do so. As things stand, your home life will only get worse and your children will only become more badly behaved. You definitely need to do something different and I think you need to take a root-and-branch approach to changing your parenting style.

Most toddlers are not maliciously bad. Certainly they can throw tantrums, get frustrated and act without thinking, but this is a natural consequence of being so young. What they need to learn is what they should be doing and how they should be acting, not simply getting told, or punished for, what not to do.

I am not surprised to hear that your children fight constantly because many children of this age have a low tolerance for frustration and can easily react in a physical way. Remember too, that by threatening and spanking them you are role modelling an aggressive way of interacting with others. It may be that this too influences their decision to hit out at each other

First among your tasks in changing what you do is to stop spanking entirely. Hitting children inevitably leads to a worsening of their behaviour.

Most parents only ever slap or spank as a last resort when they themselves feel frustrated and cross with their children’s continued misbehaviour. This then perpetuates a cycle of physically lashing out when things don’t seem to go your way.

The other danger for parents who slap is that, as slapping loses its effectiveness as a punishment (which it will do), the temptation is to up the ante in terms of the frequency with which you slap or the strength with which you slap as a means of trying to “get through” to your child. This could lead to children being seriously hurt.

Once you eliminate slapping, the next step to teaching your children how to behave well is to focus on building a positive relationship with them. This kind of relationship will help you to break the negative cycle of interaction with them.

You can build a more positive relationship by spending more time playing with them and having fun with them. As you do this you will find that managing their behaviour becomes much easier.

Use distraction as a method for diverting them from potential rows or fights. Make games out of tasks like tidying up, dressing, bathing and so on. You are much less likely to get opposition from them if things seem like fun and if you seem to be relaxed and enjoying being with them. In addition, you can try to “catch them being good” and start to really notice and comment on their good behaviour.

So, if you notice them playing calmly alongside each other for a few minutes then praise them for it, even if they were fighting a few minutes before this and return to fighting a few minutes after.

I would guess that some of their misbehaviour is designed to get your notice. If you start to attend to them more for their good behaviour they will learn that they can get as much, if not more, attention for being good.

Simply spending fun time with them on occasion also allows them to feel noticed and attended to in positive ways.

By ignoring a lot of the minor tantrums and misbehaviour that is not dangerous you will further strengthen their unconscious awareness that they get more of a relationship with you for being well behaved, than for being badly behaved.

The final thing to remember is that it is hard work parenting two toddlers. Even on the good days it can be tiring and stressful. So try to give yourself some time off (to be able to see beyond the treadmill of the daily chores of parenthood).

The more relaxed and positive you feel, the easier you will find it to be positive with the children. The calmer you remain in dealing with them, the more effective you will be.

David Coleman is a clinical psychologist and broadcaster with RTÉ

tallaght01

This is all pretty much in line with all the evidence showing that physical punishment for kids doesn't work, and it just teaches them that violence is an acceptable way to resolve disputes.

Virtually every kiddy psychologist or paediatrician will tell you the exact same thing.

Deliverance

tallaght01 wrote: »

This is all pretty much in line with all the evidence showing that physical punishment for kids doesn't work, and it just teaches them that violence is an acceptable way to resolve disputes.

Virtually every kiddy psychologist or paediatrician will tell you the exact same thing.

Smacking kids is wrong full stop. My Dad is a 'tough man' and beat me down with his fists and the odd kick, when I argued with him, it didn't stop me arguing with him (as a child) and I took some shots from him as a result.

I guess he must have had a hard life to make him this way. And that makes me sad for him in a way. He must have had one tough life as a child to make him attack mysefl in this way. I think he is one angry man.

I suppose this is why I see smacking and indeed violence against kids as wrong.

Anna88

Theres a difference between a violent parent and a parent that smacks!! I was smacked as a child...NEVER did me any harm and Im not a violent person now. When I got smacked I never did the same thing again. The reason kids are the way they are today is because parents and other people think "psycholgy" can help them....sorry guys Im voting for smacking all the way and when I have kids of my own they will be smacked to and sent to their room just like I was! Worked for me and my sisters!

we'llallhavetea_old

I would never smack my child, ever. Its wrong and quite clearly gets you nowhere. I don't know how anyone can do it. You are physically hurting your child, how the hell can you live with yourself? What does the child think? WRONG.

Anna88

The child thinks....

Never gonna do that again! Its a smack for god sake not a fully blown attack on them!

we'llallhavetea_old

Anna88 wrote: »

The child thinks....

Never gonna do that again! Its a smack for god sake not a fully blown attack on them!

i'm sorry, i don't agree. I imagine the child would feel very unloved. I hear the kids next door being smacked and it sends a shiver down my spine. They scream in pain. Its not 'just a smack', smacking bloody well hurts. And the kids still run wild. Smacking may have worked years ago, but i do not think it works anymore, and rightly so.

Anna88

Like I said...I was smacked!! A quick one at the back of the legs, ye it hurts...thats the point!! It doesn't make you feel unloved at all....in fact Im glad I was smacked because looking back now I know I loved, sounds odd but this debate could go on forever!! Its like the abortion debate....your either on one side or the other...no in between!!

we'llallhavetea_old

Anna88 wrote: »

Like I said...I was smacked!! A quick one at the back of the legs, ye it hurts...thats the point!! It doesn't make you feel unloved at all....in fact Im glad I was smacked because looking back now I know I loved, sounds odd but this debate could go on forever!! Its like the abortion debate....your either on one side or the other...no in between!!

i suppose you're right, not gonna convert one another! But i do think times have changed and that smacking is not as harmless as it used to be, dunno how or why, but i don't think its the right way to deal with a naughty child. (by the way i wasn't smacked, just got a good bollockin, and that was enough for me!)

Mulan

Anna88 wrote: »

The child thinks....

Never gonna do that again! Its a smack for god sake not a fully blown attack on them!

I agree with anna88.
But its a "how long is a piece of string" question.

tallaght01

Anna88 wrote: »

Like I said...I was smacked!!

And I knew a guy who smoked 30 a day and lived until her was 80. So, smoking is harmless. In fact, it helps you live longer.

Glad we cleared that up.

nesf

tallaght01 wrote: »

And I knew a guy who smoked 30 a day and lived until her was 80. So, smoking is harmless. In fact, it helps you live longer.

Yeah but to be a slap is not a slap in the same way a cigarette is a cigarette. I'd also be curious as to whether slapping causes violence or whether being the child of someone who's likely to slap causes violence (irrespective of who actually brings you up). There's a big difference between the two. Have there been many twin studies or the like to control for such?

luckat

nesf wrote: »

Yeah but to be a slap is not a slap in the same way a cigarette is a cigarette. I'd also be curious as to whether slapping causes violence or whether being the child of someone who's likely to slap causes violence (irrespective of who actually brings you up). There's a big difference between the two. Have there been many twin studies or the like to control for such?

There's no need to slap. Anyone who can't relate to their children without slapping them...

tallaght01

nesf wrote: »

Yeah but to be a slap is not a slap in the same way a cigarette is a cigarette. I'd also be curious as to whether slapping causes violence or whether being the child of someone who's likely to slap causes violence (irrespective of who actually brings you up). There's a big difference between the two. Have there been many twin studies or the like to control for such?

It's not about a cigarette, though. It's about the logic of the argument. Argument by counter example is the weakest way to put forward a case.

There has never been one eureka study on smacking. None of the studies involve twin studies that I'm aware of. There has been lot of work done in this field over many years that has put a lot of the pieces of the puzzle together.

In post 593 in this thread I've linked a nice article written by some guys at the american academy pf paediatrics who've summarised the research.