The Slapping Debate.

luckat

This is an interesting page too:

http://www.childadvocate.org/1a_arguments.htm

10 Pro-Corporal Punishment Arguments
& 10 Commonsense Answers
© 2000-2003 by Laurie A. Couture, M.Ed, LMHC

Here's a sample of an argument and answer from the page:

Argument #3: "I HAVE to use corporal punishment, nothing else works!" (or "Time Outs don’t work!")
Answer: True discipline is about developing a trusting, mutually respectful relationship between child and caretaker. To inflict pain on a child as a means of control is a lazy way out of the work it takes to help a child understand and internalize proper behavior. If you have used corporal punishment on your child, it will take time and effort for new methods to work. Years of negative patterns can't be erased overnight with a simple solution. Nagging, yelling, threatening, controlling and punishing must stop before an effective relationship can be built and your child can trust you and understand the consequences of his/her behavior. People who use the argument "I’ve tried everything and nothing else works" often reveal that they haphazardly tried several techniques learned in various books, without actually committing to or following through consistently with one approach. The result is an unorganized set of chaotic rules or consequences that change often and confuse the child... and make the adult appear out of control. People dissatisfied with their lack of success with "time outs" tend to use "time out" in a punitive manner. These people may expect a tantruming child to comply with sitting in a designated chair for a set amount of minutes. This punitive method of "time out" generates powers struggles rather than compliance. A more effective method is to direct the child to quiet room in which to calm down, then allowing the child to rejoin you when he or she expresses readiness. There need be no time limit or nagging. The number of brief time outs can be increased until the child understands that he or she must regain control of him/herself. As an adult, how do you deal with adults who you can't seem to gain cooperation from? Do you hit your boss, employee, spouse or best friend when it appears that "nothing else works"?

Vangelis

luckat, I chose to post the ten arguements here. The letters are so small that I found it a bit problematic to read. Hope others appreciate it! It's the very best resource so far in this thread in my opinion.

10 Pro-Corporal Punishment Arguments
& 10 Commonsense Answers
© 2000-2003 by Laurie A. Couture, M.Ed, LMHC

Argument #1: "It didn't do ME any harm!"
Answer: Often people who declare this typical argument do so very defensively. They may feel they must defend the actions of their caretakers. To do otherwise is to admit that as children, they never deserved to have pain inflicted upon them. They must also admit to the feelings of fear, anger and mistrust that may have resulted from being hit by loved ones who were supposed to keep them safe from harm. Often, people who use this argument use or have used corporal punishment on their own children, thus defending their actions to minimize guilt. However, their actions reveal that corporal punishment DID do them harm: It perpetuated the cycle of violence that they now endorse or inflict upon children.

Argument #2: "Most people who were corporally punished as kids turned out to live productive lives!" (Or, "I hit MY kids and THEY turned out fine!")
Answer: The human spirit is amazingly resilient. Many people who have experienced suffering as children are able to live productive lives. However, these people may harbor self-destructive tendencies, and interpersonal difficulties in that aren‘t apparent to onlookers. Adults who were mistreated in childhood are often insecure, mistrusting, defensive, authoritarian, passive, withdrawn, apathetic, in denial or quick to sarcasm. Those who transcend childhood suffering are often highly resilient people who have sought to process and understand how their childhood history currently impacts their lives. Due to the vast differences in each individual’s biological makeup, temperament, cognitive endurance, environment, supportive system and resources, not every person possesses an equal level of resiliency. Some people are able to flourish and achieve success in spite of childhood pain; while other people become overwhelmed by rage and anxiety and act destructively against others or towards themselves. We cannot know ahead of time how corporal punishment will adversely affect a child, or how any adverse affects will manifest. To risk the outcome of an angry, aggressive, withdrawn or insecure person is too high a risk to take even once.

Argument #3: "I HAVE to use corporal punishment, nothing else works!" (or "Time Outs don’t work!")
Answer: True discipline is about developing a trusting, mutually respectful relationship between child and caretaker. To inflict pain on a child as a means of control is a lazy way out of the work it takes to help a child understand and internalize proper behavior. If you have used corporal punishment on your child, it will take time and effort for new methods to work. Years of negative patterns can't be erased overnight with a simple solution. Nagging, yelling, threatening, controlling and punishing must stop before an effective relationship can be built and your child can trust you and understand the consequences of his/her behavior. People who use the argument "I’ve tried everything and nothing else works" often reveal that they haphazardly tried several techniques learned in various books, without actually committing to or following through consistently with one approach. The result is an unorganized set of chaotic rules or consequences that change often and confuse the child... and make the adult appear out of control. People dissatisfied with their lack of success with "time outs" tend to use "time out" in a punitive manner. These people may expect a tantruming child to comply with sitting in a designated chair for a set amount of minutes. This punitive method of "time out" generates powers struggles rather than compliance. A more effective method is to direct the child to quiet room in which to calm down, then allowing the child to rejoin you when he or she expresses readiness. There need be no time limit or nagging. The number of brief time outs can be increased until the child understands that he or she must regain control of him/herself. As an adult, how do you deal with adults who you can't seem to gain cooperation from? Do you hit your boss, employee, spouse or best friend when it appears that "nothing else works"?

Argument #4: "I only use corporal punishment as a last resort."
Answer: This reasoning teaches children that it is acceptable to use violence as a last resort to getting their way or to solving a difficult problem. This teaches that violence is the end result to frustrating situations that seem to have no other solution. Wars are fought on this principle. This argument is no more acceptable than an angry spouse saying that they "only" hit their mate "as a last resort" to a problem.

Argument #5: "There's a difference between child abuse and a little spanking!"
Answer: Violent acts occur on a continuum. Some are extreme, such as acts of torture or murder, others are less extreme such as a shove or a slap. Regardless of where they fall on the continuum, they are all acts of violence. Before the late 1960's, a husband's slap of his wife was not regarded as an act of abuse. Today, that same act is unquestionably viewed as abusive (society still has a long way to go before wives are equally regarded as batterers for assaulting their husbands). The "spanking" of children is viewed in the same light today as wife hitting was viewed before the 1960's: NOT abusive by legal standards. Additionally, if an employer "spanked" the buttocks of an employee, it would be grounds for sexual assault. Is there really a difference between child abuse and "a little spanking", or is society too uncomfortable with the idea of protecting children's right to be free from assault in the way that adults are currently protected?

Argument #6: "Corporal Punishment is Effective."
Answer: Corporal punishment may produce immediate results, but it makes discipline more difficult for caretakers in the long term. Corporal punishment teaches children to be sneaky- to follow your orders when only when you are around. It teaches children to become liars- to lie about misbehavior to avoid being hit, spanked, slapped or punished in some other degrading manner. Most importantly, corporal punishment slings arrows into the parent-child relationship, and communicates disrespect. It can destroy a child’s sense of trust and security in the relationship and confuses the definition of love. Moreover, corporal punishment has consistently been found to lead to anger, rage, aggressive behavior, revenge seeking, nightmares, disrespect for authority, higher stakes for depression, post traumatic stress, anxiety, substance use, sadomasochistic sexual fetishes, child abuse, spousal abuse, delinquency and of course... more corporal punishment (Straus, 1994). A single act of corporal punishment may be effective at immediately frightening a child into submission. However, caretakers who value their children will insist on positive, non-violent ways to discipline children.

Argument #7: "The Reason Kids Are So Bad These Days Is Because of a Lack of Corporal Punishment!"
Answer: Contrary to this argument, Straus (1994) and Gershoff (2002) report that over 90% of parents still report using corporal punishment on their children. Despite increased adult cynicism towards young people, incidents of youth crime have actually dropped since the early 1990’s. Isolated violent incidents committed by severely disturbed children are often inflated by the media to give the impression that young people are out of control. With regards to the wave of school shootings of recent years, all but one of these incidents occurred in school systems which use corporal punishment. In fact, in one school shooting case, the child targeted and shot the school teacher who had paddled him the day before. Corporal punishment is most strongly practiced in the southern and southwestern areas of the United States. These states actually have the highest rates of student violence, murder and incarceration in the country! Unfortunately, people who use argument #7 assume that discipline is synonymous with corporal punishment. If they observe the negative behaviors of children with permissive or neglectful parents, they may wrongly conclude that the child needs corporal punishment. In fact, children who are physically punished have been consistently found to have higher rates of aggression, juvenile delinquency and disrespect for authority- the very behaviors people want to prevent in children! Instead, children who have strong, loving role models, receive consistent guidance, firm limits, opportunities for democratic communication, logical consequences and positive, non-punitive discipline are more likely to manifest self discipline, critical thinking skills, personal accountability, good social skills and respect and concern for others. A child who is hit, smacked, spanked, paddled and hurt learns to be do the same.

Vangelis

Argument #8: "Corporal punishment teaches children to be obedient !"
Answer: In the early 1900’s, obedience was an important virtue. It was important for the children of hard-working laborers to be primed for lives of obedient servitude in mills and factories. Corporal punishment kept children in line, stifling critical thinking skills, negotiation, democratic communication with elders, questioning authority, bold individualistic deviations from the norm and opportunities to learn naturally from mistakes. In modern times, all of the qualities looked upon as dangerous in the early 1900’s are all qualities now necessary and vital in order to succeed in today’s innovative and competitive society. Enforcing blind obedience does not promote these skills. In order for children to grow into adults able to be successful in the modern world, they require discipline that promotes critical thinking, logical consequences, good communication and self discipline.

Argument #9: "What if they run out in the street or try to touch a hot stove? They need to be hit to learn that it is a dangerous situation!"
Answer: If you believe that hitting your child for running out into the street or reaching for a hot stove is effective, would you leave them alone near the street or stove once you’ve hit them? Being hit is in no way teaches anything about the dangers of the street or the stove, nor will it prevent them from exploring dangerous situations in the future. Instead, hitting children teaches them that YOU are dangerous and can inflict pain upon them. Children should not be hurt or punished for their lack of experience about the world, and for their developmental immaturity. It is the caretaker’s responsibility to remove opportunities for a child to encounter dangerous situations in their environment through proper monitoring and "child-proofing" efforts. Children can be taught gradually to exercise caution around dangerous situations, through your example, and constant reminders. Until they comprehend the dangers, they must be supervised, not hit.

Argument #10: "The Bible admonishes us to use 'the rod' on children!"
Answer: Children are assaulted on a daily basis in the name of religious devotion due to a few Biblical scriptures that have been taken out of context. Proverbs 23:13,14 is a commonly cited scripture for the support of corporal punishment. From a historical perspective, King Solomon, author of the book of Proverbs, was recorded as a brutal king who was thirsty for violence and who later opposed the law of God. His sons, who no doubt received corporal punishment, were rebellious, disrespectful and very aggressive. Given King Solomon's lack of family success, is he a good spiritual role model for parenting? In contrast, Jesus Christ was by far the Bible's most peaceful figure. There is no scripture in the New Testament in which Jesus advocates for, admonishes or recommends the use of corporal punishment on children. In stark contrast, he stated that people should treat others the way they wish to be treated. That is hardly a support for violence. Citing isolated Biblical scriptures is not an acceptable argument for using corporal punishment on children. Using the same technique of taking ancient, isolated scriptures out of context, one could also justify polygamy, racism, slavery, banishing menstruating women from public and stoning to death of those who have sexual relations outside of marriage. Additionally, there is no evidence that the "rod" of the Bible was anything other than a symbolic metaphor for a shepherd's staff, which was used to lead or guide, not hit, sheep. To take a few isolated scriptures from the Old testament out of context to excuse assaulting children is a gross contradiction of Jesus' message of love, tenderness and peace.

Nevyn

This is the last tract of text that I will permit to be posted on this thread.
Links are always welcome and if people are intrested they will click and read for themsleves.

Vangelis

That's fine.
But I'd like to say that I have not vilified anyone.

Charis

I truly appreciate everyone's passion and fervor though I do not carry some of the same sentiments. In previous discussion people have mentioned that both spanking and hitting are equally painful and this a point I would very much like to clarify. I have very successfully used a light slap on the hand with the stove. BTW magnets on the fridge and toys lost my children's interest and did not work. A person who is hitting a child, from my experience having worked with abused children and women, usually does so without any thought or regard for the individual. Parents that do spank frequently do so like I do, a light slap on a hand or in a an area like the bum that will not harm the child. This is very different to punching, hitting an giving a child a black eye or beating a child. None of which are EVER appropriate. If a person finds themself inflicting corporal punishment on a daily basis I would agree that is a huge problem. I can remember only three times when I was spanked growing up. I don't really remember the spanking as much as I do the time spent with my father or mother holding me afterward and discussing why I had been disciplined in this manner. Slapping across the face NEVER happened and I don't believe there is justification for that. I do however, really appreciate the books written by Ezzo and Bucknam called Baby Wise. They use things like a light to moderate squeeze on a hand with a very young child because, "discomfort gets any human's attention faster than anything else." They very much deal with heart issues and motivation behind behavior. I think this might show some other ideas that when done in an appropriate, careful manner can be highly effective. Although we use many forms of rewards and discipline in our house I would say the times we have used corporal punishment the child responds with arms outstretched. Immediately following this form of punishment there is love, cuddles and talk time. This is necessary if using corporal punishment because the child does feel loved and accepted. If you are unwilling to take the time to do this I would say that any form of corporal punishment is inappropriate. That is our view in our house. I do agree with not punishing a child for lack of knowledge or experience. The slap on a hand only occurs when the child is now intentially choosing to disobey. My children do baby sign language and no matter what anyone says they understand a lot more than many people like to give children credit for. Since 9 months my children were able to use sign language to ask for more food and to tell me when they were done eating. They also learned the words and signs for no and and stop early on. Children are very bright! Ultimately, how we parent is up to each individual. Thank you for the dialogue, I can see that many have you have invested similar time and energy into researching how you parent just as I have and I very much respect your tips. There is always room to improve.

TempestSabre

Vangelis wrote:

Does the smartness of the child being bold qualify for corporal punishment?

No who said that? Being bold is a deliberate act of disobedience. Which inferes intelligence. Without intelligence its not bold.

Vangelis wrote:

What exactly do you mean by discipline?

Something along the lines of...

dis·ci·pline Audio pronunciation of "discipline" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (ds-pln)
n.

1. Training expected to produce a specific character or pattern of behavior, especially training that produces moral or mental improvement.
2. Controlled behavior resulting from disciplinary training; self-control.
3.
1. Control obtained by enforcing compliance or order.
2. A systematic method to obtain obedience: a military discipline.
3. A state of order based on submission to rules and authority: a teacher who demanded discipline in the classroom.
4. Punishment intended to correct or train.
5. A set of rules or methods, as those regulating the practice of a church or monastic order.
6. A branch of knowledge or teaching.


tr.v. dis·ci·plined, dis·ci·plin·ing, dis·ci·plines

1. To train by instruction and practice, especially to teach self-control to.
2. To teach to obey rules or accept authority. See Synonyms at teach.
3. To punish in order to gain control or enforce obedience. See Synonyms at punish.
4. To impose order on: needed to discipline their study habits.

Some combination or all of the above.

Vangelis wrote:

What do you do when you see the child become afraid and aggressive? Do you hit more?

"Do you hit more" :rolleyes: Is it possible to have a more loaded question. Hit more. What an assumption. :mad:

Vangelis wrote:

In fair sense, physical pain has mental consequences.
We see that in all age-groups.

Ditto emotional pain.

Vangelis wrote:

luckat, could you find any info on the effects the hitting had on the children from the research?

Ditto emotional pain.

Vangelis

TempestSabre wrote:

No who said that? Being bold is a deliberate act of disobedience. Which inferes intelligence. Without intelligence its not bold.

Nobody said anything. I asked a question. There you have my "thinking outside the box"-tendency again.

"Do you hit more" :rolleyes: Is it possible to have a more loaded question. Hit more. What an assumption. :mad:

It was not an assumption. It was a question.

Ditto emotional pain.

And is that what the parents want?

TempestSabre

Vangelis wrote:

Nobody said anything. I asked a question. There you have my "thinking outside the box"-tendency again.

You asked a nonsensical question. Theres no relation between the smartness of individual children and the level of discipline they should recieve. Its about an act of delibrate disobedience against predefined rules. The smartest and slowest of us can be delibrately disobedient, and should be disciplined equally according to those rules.

Vangelis wrote:

It was not an assumption. It was a question.

"Again" assumes something has happened before. In this case hitting.

The scenerio of a child being "afraid and aggressive" and being hit repeatedly is obviously abuse. Its not asking a neutral question in the interest of exploring the issue. Its clearly prejudgment of the issue as abuse.

Corporal punishment is not abuse. Its punishment. Its designed to condition the recipient to adhere to rules. Any alternatives must also be some form of punishment. Be it emotional punishment, or removal of priviledges its all punishment. Anything taken to extreme is abuse. For some reason opponents of corporal punishment always talk about abuse. Without balancing the argument by discussing the effects of emotional abuse etc.

Vangelis wrote:

And is that what the parents want?

Thats like asking, do doctors want to cause you pain when they treat you. Its a warped logic. Again your focusing on causing pain for some reason.

However to ignore the fact that sometimes pain is unavoidable is naive. If you have two children, one whos bold and ones whos good. You reward the good child. Does that not cause the other child pain? Is that emotion pain less painful than corporal punishment? Note not corporal abuse.

You might think I'm defending corporal punishment. I'm not I think its a flawed technique, but I'm not going to close my mind to discussing the issue. However I'm going to take issue with loaded and pointedly bias logic applied to twist the discussion.

Vangelis

Thank you. Now ask some better questions yourself.

TempestSabre

Yesssssssir!

What are the effects of emotional discipline and other techniques on a child? Are there any studies on the long term effects? If any? Maybe there aren't any?

Vangelis

Have you searched?

PS It's Yesssssma'm.

TempestSabre

Vangelis wrote:

Have you searched?

PS It's Yesssssma'm.

Yes and its just as bad.

cleo-x

Eoghan-psych wrote:

If you slap me, it is assault. etc.

i so agree with wot you just wrote, forgetting about the laws for a second, why don;t people think of whats morally right or wrong! I'm a child, 16, and i still get slapped every now and again. Im not a "troublesom teenager" and i think its SHOCKING if parents slap their children. that won't do anything apart from make the child more angry and inclined to stay away. As for younger kids, it's even worse, you just have to LOOK at a younger kid the wrong way to make them feel upset and make them know theyv done something wrong, why slap them aswell! A teachers job is to teach and dicipline children. At school they can't slap the children so why do parents feel the need to do otherwise?

TempestSabre

cleo-x wrote:

....A teachers job is to teach...

....based on that shocking spelling you have to wonder...:D

cleo-x

TempestSabre wrote:

....based on that shocking spelling you have to wonder...:D

har har, :eek: that doesn't mean I'm a bad child though it just means i type too fast and spend too much time on msn using text talk well any way, I came on here to find out whether it is actually illegal, i think it should be, but is it? (in England)

TempestSabre

AFAIK know it isn't


BTW I was querying the teachers ability to teach.

SarahMc

Slapping children is legal in Ireland. But we got a slap ourselves for this by the Council of Europe as this in in breach of UN Convention on the Rights of the Child. http://www.oco.ie/press_releases/20050608.php

DublinWriter

I'm not expressing an opinion one way or the other, but it's amazing the amount of people without kids who moralise about this.

TempestSabre

DublinWriter wrote:

I'm not expressing an opinion one way or the other, but it's amazing the amount of people without kids who moralise about this.

In fairness everyone has an opinion. But the theory and the reality can be very different. Some kids are harder to control aswell, so just because you have good kids doesn't mean everyones kids react the same. I have a friend who has 4 kids and if he'd had the last kid first he'd probably only had one!

Personally I find that supernanny show broadly mirrors my own experience. However it glosses over the hard work and persistence that is required. I guess theres a lot they leave out in a 30min show. It also doesn't really reflect how exhausting it can be on the parents either. Some people are so exhausted their personality can be effected.

Ickle Magoo

Blinda wrote:

Slapping children IS ILLEGAL in the UK.-FACT

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/4654084.stm#startcontent

Read the bottom paragraph re "Smacking Plea" - this is taken from the Child Watchdog on January 28th 2006....so I think smacking is still legal in the UK - FACT!!

TempestSabre

Ickle Magoo wrote:

[URL=]"http://news.bbc.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/4654084.stm#startcontent"[/URL]

Read the bottom paragraph re "Smacking Plea" - this is taken from the Child Watchdog on January

That link is not working for me.

Ickle Magoo

TempestSabre wrote:

That link is not working for me.

Sorry - I missed out a .co

Should be working now! It has articles on the smacking ban being rejected on 22nd Jan 06 & the Child Watchdog article from the 28th....

TempestSabre

Brings me to Microsoft.com ? Maybe its my browser? FF?

Ickle Magoo

TempestSabre wrote:

Brings me to Microsoft.com ? Maybe its my browser? FF?

Try clicking on the one in my original post rather than the one in your quote....the one you quoted is still the wrong addy....the one in my old post works fine on my PC....sorry .:(:o

TempestSabre

Works now. Cheers.

Odd I though it was illegal in the UK aswell.

dandanthe

hiya,
I understood the question that you asked and my answer is that I dont know. However, having an 8 yr old boy and having been brought up in the 'slaps for punishment' school, I have never used violence to teach my child something. I prefer logical reasoning with my son and as a result he is very obedient as he knows everything we do has consequences. I have a better relationship with my son than I had with my father and I think this has helped. The 'slap school ethos' has proved time and time again to be unproductive in parent/child relationships and long term creates more problems than it solves.

mysterious

The simple salution to a parents anger towards their kids is to slap them!! Even though they try not and even feel guilty slapping them

A.Bottom line a person who slaps their kids regulary and thinks its perfectly normal to do so, obviously need to control his/her temper, instead of teaching their kids the same example!:rolleyes:

B. Slapping doesn't work
Why it just creates a viscous circle, and creates more tension, A child will only become more rebellous and fearful.

C. they are other ways to discipline and most will aggree there are plentiful salutions ( I cannot stand parents who say there is no other way that tells me they it comforts them to go the mean stearn way!

D. Violence leads to more violence, slapping leads to more slapping

E. Has slapping solved anything?

F. Finally my personal opinion, not fact BTw but I think it is allowed to be presented!
Children who are brought up not being hit or slapped or any phisical assault for that matter are more well mannered and calmer than kids who were being slapped and being spanked for whatever technique the parents thought would suit the purpose.

---

It annoyes every bone in my spine to hear that parents say its right to hit your kids and there is no other way to dicipline your kids, I personally was slapped and brought up in an environment that was not benificial. It turned out worse as it was a control thing with my parents, threathening etc, its all wrong!!!

TempestSabre

Love the sweeping generalisations. Since slapping (and I'm not a fan of it ) has been used for generations, does that mean all kids who were previously slapped. Are/were rebellous and fearful, bad mannered and wild?

secret_squirrel

mysterious wrote:

A.Bottom line a person who slaps their kids regulary and thinks its perfectly normal to do so, obviously need to control his/her temper, instead of teaching their kids the same example!:rolleyes:

B. Slapping doesn't work
Why it just creates a viscous circle, and creates more tension, A child will only become more rebellous and fearful.

C. they are other ways to discipline and most will aggree there are plentiful salutions ( I cannot stand parents who say there is no other way that tells me they it comforts them to go the mean stearn way!

D. Violence leads to more violence, slapping leads to more slapping

E. Has slapping solved anything?

F. Finally my personal opinion, not fact BTw but I think it is allowed to be presented!

How many of these are based on your personal experience? Or are they all opinion? How many kids do you have?

The kind of revisionist hippy crap spouted on this thread really gets to me. Kids have been physically punished for 10's if not hundreds of thousands of years, either by their Parents or by nature itself.

Its perfectly obvious to any who has half a brain that physical chastisement of a child is a perfectly natural thing to do. If a kid plays with fire they get burnt. Physical punishment is a natural extension of that principle.

Providing there is its a calm measured immediate response to the kids behaviour I would have no problem physically punishing my child. Im not suggesting it should be frequent but as long as its reserved as a technique of last resort fair enough.