The Slapping Debate.

RainyDay

secret_squirrel wrote:

Its perfectly obvious to any who has half a brain that physical chastisement of a child is a perfectly natural thing to do. If a kid plays with fire they get burnt. Physical punishment is a natural extension of that principle.

Providing there is its a calm measured immediate response to the kids behaviour I would have no problem physically punishing my child. Im not suggesting it should be frequent but as long as its reserved as a technique of last resort fair enough.

Why stop this physical punishment with kids? If it is so effective, the natural extension of your principle is that we should use it with adults too. So can I just slap the shopgirl across the face the next time she messes up my change? Can I give the nice girl who works for me a calm, measured slap on the arm if she submits some work which is not up to scratch?

TempestSabre

My toddler is on his 3rd verbal warning but its not having much effect. Its a P45 next.

secret_squirrel

RainyDay wrote:

Why stop this physical punishment with kids? If it is so effective, the natural extension of your principle is that we should use it with adults too. So can I just slap the shopgirl across the face the next time she messes up my change? Can I give the nice girl who works for me a calm, measured slap on the arm if she submits some work which is not up to scratch?

One. Absolutely ridiculous examples.

Two. Adults are presumed to know better.

A kid doesnt have the reasoning skills, the emotional maturity or life experience of the average adult. Punisments for a child and an adult are therefore not comparable and your point is irrelevant.

RainyDay

secret_squirrel wrote:

One. Absolutely ridiculous examples.

Two. Adults are presumed to know better.

A kid doesnt have the reasoning skills, the emotional maturity or life experience of the average adult. Punisments for a child and an adult are therefore not comparable and your point is irrelevant.

If you think that my examples are ridiculous to you, you should see how ridiculous your examples are to me. So if I follow your logic or take it to its natural extension (and remember that you're the one who brought the 'natural extension' approach to the table), when I'm dealing with adults with poor reasoning skills, low emotional maturity and limited life experiences, it is OK for me to give them a few slaps to get my message through - right?

TempestSabre

Interesting point.

But, regardless of their mental age such an adult still has many more years of experience/conditioning, than a child would have. Thats not a comparable situation. Thats very different to a child which is learning, and has the potential to learn more.

Your veering into the area of mental health and I'm not entirely sure its allowable under the boards rules of no medical issues. Its kinda of a emotive subject if your effected by such issues. So perhaps its not appropriate to discuss those issues here.

RainyDay

You don't suddenly stop learning when you get to 18. Adults continue to learn all through their life.

So the natural extension of the Squirrels point is that we should dish out the slaps liberally to get the message through to adults - right?

TempestSabre

RainyDay wrote:

You don't suddenly stop learning when you get to 18. Adults continue to learn all through their life.

So the natural extension of the Squirrels point is that we should dish out the slaps liberally to get the message through to adults - right?

If an adult doesn't respond to verbal reasoning and the laws of the land, you get the cops. Who use truncheons and physical force to get their point across when all else fails.

secret_squirrel

RainyDay wrote:

So the natural extension of the Squirrels point is that we should dish out the slaps liberally to get the message through to adults - right?

Only in your head. In mine there is no natural extension, apart from the point that TempestSabre made. An adult gets punished by the cops and other methods society has developed to manage adult behaviour.

All of which is irrelevant since we are talking about kids.

mysterious

secret_squirrel wrote:

How many of these are based on your personal experience? Or are they all opinion? How many kids do you have?

The kind of revisionist hippy crap spouted on this thread really gets to me. Kids have been physically punished for 10's if not hundreds of thousands of years, either by their Parents or by nature itself.

Its perfectly obvious to any who has half a brain that physical chastisement of a child is a perfectly natural thing to do. If a kid plays with fire they get burnt. Physical punishment is a natural extension of that principle.

Providing there is its a calm measured immediate response to the kids behaviour I would have no problem physically punishing my child. Im not suggesting it should be frequent but as long as its reserved as a technique of last resort fair enough.

Where's the fact that slapping is effective?

Children are not stupid and a slap is not going to teach them higher knowing,
There are plenty of ways to teach your children how to behave, slapping in my opinion is just... A parent taking its anger out on their siblings because he/she can't figure how to discipline their kids. I don't agree with giving kids physical punishment, as in my opinion it did nothing for me growing up other than the Parent is the Master and lord of! It creates bad feelings. Getting slapped when a child did something wrong, isn’t logical as they are not learning effectively. All kids remember when they get in trouble is getting slapped; they don't remember what their parents explained to them which was wrong etc. I just don't see the point in punishing your kids this way.

Watch the experts/Nannys/Creches/ even the bleedin show, they all do almost perfectly well in managing kids without "slapping" , there's the evidence!

The other thing is some Parents see their child as they lack of knowing and they don't understand. Kids obviously don't see logic as we Adults do, so I guess they don't see much logic in getting slapped when they don't know as to why they got slapped, they might know their parents slapped them for being bold but not knowing what they did was wrong, watch the kids reaction in a situation where they got slapped for doing something they did not know was wrong, You need to explain and tell the child what he/she is doing wrong, if they continue to proceed in aggravating the situation give them a verbal warning, if they don't listen, take something away or send them to their room so they can understand the problem.

Children are in fact a hell of a lot more intuitive and sensitive than most people realise, they observe everything! They are not stupid and shouldn’t be looked upon as is! I see plenty of well-behaved children from being brought up without being slapped or punished in any physical form, and that's the truth of it.


The other thing is the Adult/child hieachry? so when a child becomes 18 should the parent still hit them? why is this, is it still not working? :rolleyes: slapping is'nt effective in my opinion!

RainyDay

secret_squirrel wrote:

Only in your head. In mine there is no natural extension, apart from the point that TempestSabre made. An adult gets punished by the cops and other methods society has developed to manage adult behaviour.

All of which is irrelevant since we are talking about kids.

OK - now I get it. The 'natural extensions' are only natural when they suit your arguement. Otherwise they are irrelevant. Yep - makes perfect sense now that you explain it. Silly old me.....

But before you go, please do explain why slapping works for kids and not for adults, as you haven't really explained this issue at all. Where does the cut-off lie? Is it OK for me to slap my 17 year 51 week old child, but not OK to slap my 18 year 1 week old young adult? Is it OK for me to slap other people's children to get my message across the them? Why don't the 'other methods society has developed' work with kids?

Nevyn

Slapping or physical chastiment was the standard pratice for a long time.
So was child labour, but we have as a socity evolved.
But we still have to learn a new way of disaplining children.
Most of the ideas on how children are to be reared we get from out own parents and from who we were brought up.
It is less then 3 generations from when slapping was the norm.
My Granmother was very much an advocate of giving a good smack,
my mother was until I was ten and then went and did a parenting course.
It is a learned behaviour and I have done parenting classes myself and only ocassionally physically disaplined my own children.

You can't get rid of the system that was there and replace it with nothing else.
For some reason the lack of slapping has often resulted in lack of disaplining children.

secret_squirrel

RainyDay wrote:

OK - now I get it. The 'natural extensions' are only natural when they suit your arguement.

Im puzzled You use my words in a completely different context and expect me to agree with you? How does that work exactly?

Silly old me.....

I sense some tension in your replies to me, I suggest deep breaths before the next one. I have a child you can beat for relief if you like??

But before you go, please do explain why slapping works for kids and not for adults, as you haven't really explained this issue at all. Where does the cut-off lie? Is it OK for me to slap my 17 year 51 week old child, but not OK to slap my 18 year 1 week old young adult?

I should have thought this was obvious. Once society laws say's a child is old enough to take legal responsibilty physical punishment becomes illegal.

Slapping might very well still work however, if it was allowed. Depends on
the people and the circumstances. I would suggest that at an adults age any positive influences from physical chastisement would have long gone.

Is it OK for me to slap other people's children to get my message across the them?

Sure. If you have the permission of their legal guardians and you are following ground rules that they lay down.

Why don't the 'other methods society has developed' work with kids?

Well assuming you arent advocating jailing kids for misbehaviour.... Some of the other methods do work. For instance stopping a kids pocket money/allowance is comparable to having an adult wages stopped for discipline issues at work.

Slapping is just one of a massive range of possible techniques for making sure a child grows up reasonably well. I fail to why we should suddenly dismiss it.

You really seem to be missing the point here. Nowhere have I suggested that slapping should be used routinely, however its my opinion that its worth using as a last resort. Feel free to disagree with me.

Before you do here's a thought - we have been physically punishing kids for 1000's of years and society in general is doing pretty well. Why should we suddenly stop that because of a moral fad that suggests (with very little proof I might add) that we might be harming them?

I get a faint hint of nausea everytime someone rolls out the arguement that some how not resorting to physical actions makes us morally superior than those who do. It seems particularly implicit in the tone of some of the posts on these threads. Its a big failing I think we in the West have particularly. Few other cultures have such a guilt trip about such a basic fact of life.

I believe that physical action is one item in a vast range of possible actions that are a perfectly valid way to deal with situations in families.

Here's a last thought for those of you who disagree with slapping. Numerous posters have mentioned how mentally and emotionally sensitive a child can be.
In which case which causes a child more harm? A brief stinging sensation that hurts less than skinning their knees? Or some of the mental and emotional manipulation that goes on in 'modern parenting'. Where does it stop?

Maybe we should make the bold step illegal the same time we make slapping??

RainyDay

Thanks so much for giving me your permission for me to disagree with you. I was so worried that I was going to get a slap for having the temerity to disagree.

For the record, I never suggested anything about moral superiority. I never suggested that you were proposing slapping as a matter of routine. I've no idea how you've managed to extrapolate from the view of a few posters to a problem affecting the whole Western world. I can't get my head around the contradiction of you recommending a 'massive range of possible techniques' while you disparage 'mental & emotional manipulation'.

Interesting how you failed to answer the key question (again) - so here's one more try - But before you go, please do explain why slapping works for kids and not for adults, as you haven't really explained this issue at all

TempestSabre

Slapping does work for adults its just not allowed anymore. In a hypothetical scenero. If I hit you with a baton everytime you broke the speed limit you'd stop doing it. They used to use a whip for lashing in the past. Cat o Nine tails?

I'n not saying it was right, or that it doesn't have its problems but it does work. Its a threat of punishment, that stops us doing things.

luckat

Bringing a little science into the discussion, studies have shown that slapping actually *doesn't* work.

It does stop the behaviour at that moment (and greatly relieves the slapper's impatience at that moment too).

It doesn't, however, make the behaviour less likely to recur.

(I like the slapping-shop-assistants idea, by the way. Would it be all right if I slapped assistants for doing something that really annoys me: carrying on their own private conversation while "serving" me? Superquinn checkout clerks and packers are particularly rude about this, which is probably one of the main reasons I now mostly shop at Tesco and check my goods out myself. Hey, girls, I'm spending €80 here, I'd like a little eye contact!)

mysterious

TempestSabre wrote:

Slapping does work for adults its just not allowed anymore. In a hypothetical scenero. If I hit you with a baton everytime you broke the speed limit you'd stop doing it. They used to use a whip for lashing in the past. Cat o Nine tails?

Rubbish.... It creates fear not solve the very problem, not working mate... simple as that we are not cavemen anymore we shouldn’t live in fear of authority or your mother for that matter... for god's sake..:rolleyes:
It’s a threat of punishment that stops us doing things
But the reality is it hasn't solved anything.

But, People are still breaking the law even if they get a whack off a baseball bat! And they still break the law three years later let's say. Watch COPS remember that series, the cops used to beat the living day lights out of the black community which I believe just created more tension etc., they still did the bad things fought the cops, plus the cops did a bad things to, not working again.... So this is the society some people here want.. Even If I may be extreme or delicate.

It isn’t solving the problem

And if you were to do physical punishment to someone, that pain has to go somewhere doesn’t it. To the very core of you, Which is why we go to the gym beat a hurley around because we humans are programmed to retaliate when harm comes are way, but if we use at lease 12% of our brains we might understand how to deal with it...

It’s amazing... If anyone is smart enough would know that if someone gets bet up, slapped, physical threatened on a regular basis or frequently, They're will be retaliation and repercussions, which is EXACTLY WHY SOCIETY WANT TO PUT AN END TO THIS FORM OF DICIPLINE

Hit a child, child will somehow get you back or think it's appropriate to hit anyone, Children play a violent game he slaps him and what will he do? Guess? Any example you guys?

For example, going to hit out... and tell you a personal example. Father hits child regularly, not the occasional slap on the bottom (me arse, most will understand the real physical punishment) that child will then grow up and beat his wife... Father who is an alcoholic and hits his wife will affect the kids... The kids will grow up and take it out on their own or lash out on others.

Now we all know exactly the pattern and the truth is this is reality
Tit for tat, that is why it has being going on for thousands of years, and know one likes it to be done to them so don't do it other's, so get off this bandwagon that its worked for thousands of years... It's only in the last two generations we are slowly realising that there ARE other better ways of bringing up kids, and they work....

secret_squirrel wrote:

Sure. If you have the permission of their legal guardians and you are following ground rules that they lay down.

So you're telling me that slapping other kids will improve other children's behavior, let talk about feelings then shall we, if you had kids let's say, and I slapped them, basically what will happen to that child now? How would THEY feel about it? I remember getting slapped by a teacher in boarding school and quite frankly she was a women with problems, now I wasn’t a problem child if you could wonder. It turned out that I hated her, despised her, felt scared to be near her, and felt like I had nothing to feel good about myself, now I was 5 don't forget so I never knew what I was doing wrong, and ALL I remember is getting physical punished...

We have evolved and enough respect for other's not to this.

Like other's, have said you still have not given sufficient evidence to prove slapping works?



The root of all this is about power on other's control.

mysterious

luckat wrote:

Bringing a little science into the discussion, studies have shown that slapping actually *doesn't* work.

It does stop the behaviour at that moment (and greatly relieves the slapper's impatience at that moment too).

It doesn't, however, make the behaviour less likely to recur.

(I like the slapping-shop-assistants idea, by the way. Would it be all right if I slapped assistants for doing something that really annoys me: carrying on their own private conversation while "serving" me? Superquinn checkout clerks and packers are particularly rude about this, which is probably one of the main reasons I now mostly shop at Tesco and check my goods out myself. Hey, girls, I'm spending €80 here, I'd like a little eye contact!)

Well I'm glad we see logic, and well straight to the point.:)

Heinrich

How many of you, armchair child psychologists and model parents who do not slap the brats, are old enough to actually see their offspring as adults? When they become adults an only then can you be sure as to whether your method succeeded or failed The rest is pure rhetoric or bullsh*t for want of a better word! !:rolleyes:

Long live supernanny, anything beats Big Brother and You're a Star.

mysterious

Heinrich wrote:

How many of you, armchair child psychologists and model parents who do not slap the brats, are old enough to actually see their offspring as adults? When they become adults an only then can you be sure as to whether your method succeeded or failed The rest is pure rhetoric or bullsh*t for want of a better word! !:rolleyes:

Long live supernanny, anything beats Big Brother and You're a Star.

The truth is their's too much evidence and now facts, what are you trying to say here, that well Parents who have brought up their kids without slapping them are idiots???? or well come accross like ones? oh dear.

I was brought up in an environment in which you didn't just get a slap but a fist or well threatned and IT DIDN'T WORK,Now I'm not stupid to see how it would effect another or my own child, I would'nt want my kids to become rensentful. Every Parent has there way of doing things no-one is stopping that, And everyone will make a lot of mistakes along the way, it's not about perfection. Most Parents now will say that slapping is not working. You should learn observation and watch kids more if you think myself or others don't know the effects it's has on kids. Why don't you watch them grow up and tell us??
You actually should think about what your saying cus I could see you as being a little insulting.

I'm now in the process of to putting all that baggage and abnormal issues of absurd behavior behind me and most certainly would not put my kids through it what I had being through., and of course my kids will be need dicipline, but I don't need to slap or just give them a beating because they did it 50 years ago.

Other point you sound angry and in denial.

Who are you calling brats, I'm noting some problems here, hmm

Heinrich

mysterious wrote:

The truth is their's too much evidence and now facts, what are you trying to say here, that well Parents who have brought up their kids without slapping them are idiots???? or well come accross like ones? oh dear.

I was brought up in an environment in which you didn't just get a slap but a fist or well threatned and IT DIDN'T WORK,Now I'm not stupid to see how it would effect another or my own child, I would'nt want my kids to become rensentful. Every Parent has there way of doing things no-one is stopping that, And everyone will make a lot of mistakes along the way, it's not about perfection. Most Parents now will say that slapping is not working. You should learn observation and watch kids more if you think myself or others don't know the effects it's has on kids. Why don't you watch them grow up and tell us??
You actually should think about what your saying cus I could see you as being a little insulting.

I'm now in the process of to putting all that baggage and abnormal issues of absurd behavior behind me and most certainly would not put my kids through it what I had being through., and of course my kids will be need dicipline, but I don't need to slap or just give them a beating because they did it 50 years ago.

Other point you sound angry and in denial.

Who are you calling brats, I'm noting some problems here, hmm

Are your own *well behaved children* grown up so that YOU can see if YOURr method worked? If not then you haven't answered the question!:p

mysterious

LOL...

Well let's just say everybody has their journey, why are you eager to know, I could lie here if I want... Answering your question is one thing & answering a personal question is another my friend and quite frankly what should I prove to you here, as your not the centre of my universe, and it is'nt about my children, my method works for me that's all you need to knowyou should seriously think how idiotic and immature you are bein!

You should learn to find out things for yourself kid.
How about I turn something around in a way? what age are you? well this is personal , see a reaction here is expected likewise it's none of my business, but then again you asked me a personal question....

TempestSabre

mysterious wrote:

Rubbish.... It creates fear not solve the very problem, not working mate... simple

Nice little rant. Feel better? So in my extreme example if I hit you with a baton every time you were speeding you'd keep doing it? Thats kinda odd. Even a mouse learns to avoid pain.

luckat wrote:

Bringing a little science into the discussion, studies have shown that slapping actually *doesn't* work.

It does stop the behaviour at that moment (and greatly relieves the slapper's impatience at that moment too).

Thats contradictory. What you are saying is that it does work in the very short term. I love the term "Impatience". Driven mental more like it.

mysterious wrote:

It doesn't, however, make the behaviour less likely to recur.

Well I agree with you there. All studies show that once the threat is removed the behaviour continues. Which is why its an inefficient way of discipline in the long run. Most books I've read on the subject say a slap is useful where you require an immediate response, for example where a child is in immediate danger.

Heinrich

mysterious wrote:

LOL...

Well let's just say everybody has their journey, why are you eager to know, I could lie here if I want... Answering your question is one thing & answering a personal question is another my friend and quite frankly what should I prove to you here, as your not the centre of my universe, and it is'nt about my children, you should seriously think how idiotic and immature you are bein!

You should learn to find out things for yourself kid.
What age are you?

Slightly older and by far wiser than you. Also a little more lucid.:p

mysterious

deleted..

TempestSabre

mysterious wrote:

....I was brought up in an environment in which you didn't just get a slap but a fist or well threatned ....

Thats very different from the occasion slap and not really comparible. Thats abuse. I don't see that as the same myself at all.

mysterious

Heinrich wrote:

Slightly older and by far wiser than you. Also a little more lucid.:p

Lol. You won this game that I'm not playing, but now that you know better! im all ears for your wise words...

mysterious

TempestSabre wrote:

Thats very different from the occasion slap and not really comparible. Thats abuse. I don't see that as the same myself at all.

I totally agree maybe it's a bit to extreme, but.
So I tiny slap on the Bum is going to make the difference you describe?
That's a different effect like you described a baton ?

TempestSabre

mysterious wrote:

I totally agree maybe it's a bit to extreme, but.
So I tiny slap on the Bum is going to make the difference you describe?
That's a different effect like you described a baton ?

Context is everything.

A slap could stop a thrashing child from wriggling out of your grip crossing a busy road.

mysterious

TempestSabre wrote:

Context is everything.

A slap could stop a thrashing child from wriggling out of your grip crossing a busy road.

I totally agree with you but I see it as there are plenty of choices and options to deal with an undiciplined child you don't have to slap your kid fas the only option;) quite limiting actually.

TempestSabre

Who said it was the only option?