The Slapping Debate.

glimmerman

RainyDay wrote:

I spot a case of rose-tinted glasses. When exactly were the good old days that you are hankering for? Do you mean past centuries when kids were sent up chimneys to earn a crust?

We are talking about discipline, not child labour.

Or the 1950's when abused pregnant girls were locked up in homes and had their babies taken from?

We are talking about discipline, not the mishandling of teenage pregnancy.

Or the 1970's when our brightest & best had to emigrate to UK or US to get a job?

We are talking about discipline, not emigration.

Your implicit conclusion that society today is in a mess warrants more exploration.

Been in any classrooms lately?

You can lash out all the 'do-gooder' cliches you like, but that doesn't change anything.

What do-gooder cliches have I lashed out?

You seem to believe that the only way to manage & motivate kids is through fear of violence.

No, its the teaching of boundaries I'm concerned with, through the careful and judicious use of a slap or a good spanking.

Maybe it's not surprising that you feel this way if you were managed with violence, but it really is not the only way. There are other, better options out there...

Name them.

I find that positive parenting is extremely effective with my little girl. Catch her doing something right, and praise, praise, praise instead of constantly trying to catch her doing things wrong. Even from a very young age, I found that simple explanations for why she should/should not do things are very helpful too. Where necessary, I've found that a sharp raised voice combined with eye contact gets through to her when something more serious is required.

Until she realises thats all you're going to do, raise your voice. Then you stop getting through to her when she starts getting rebellious.

At least I'm not actually wearing rose-tinted spectacles.

CerebralCortex

glimmerman wrote:

....Until she realises thats all you're going to do, raise your voice. Then you stop getting through to her when she starts getting rebellious.

At least I'm not actually wearing rose-tinted spectacles....

For all you know those that are rebelious are those that where oppressed physically.

In a nutshell I am asking you to tell us why you think spanking is a good idea.

RainyDay

Hi Glimmerman - I don't do quote/response type discussion, as I find it adds little sense to debates like this. So I'll just take one important point from your response. You question what happens when she realises that raising my voice is all I'm going to do. I can ask you exactly the same question about slapping - What happens when your kid works out that all you're going to do is slap - What do you do? Slap harder? Slap much harder? Slap for longer? Slap with a weapon?

There are no easy magic solutions to parenting, but hitting any other person, child or adult, isn't going to solve anything.

TempestSabre

Slap happy. Some don't do quotes, others don't reply to name calling and flamebaiting.

secret_squirrel wrote:

...As Adam said - prove me wrong -with links....I get the impression some posters on this forum are posting what they want to be true rather than actual facts....

From those reports, comments and press releases, none of which are research, but commentaries on the research by Gershoff. Who ironically says...

...Gershoff also cautions that her findings do not imply that all children who experience corporal punishment turn out to be aggressive or delinquent. A variety of situational factors, such as the parent/child relationship, can moderate the effects of corporal punishment...

Her research was focused on only one aspect.

..Gershoff's (2002) review provides only a snapshot linking corporal punishment with negative outcomes...

This sums it up nicely.

...the primary effect of corporal punishment has not been adequately tested, nor is there any published evidence abut childrens physiological reactions to spanking...

I think thats prior to the swedish research, which AFAIK know is the only one of its kind. But even I was amazed at those reports equating a corporal punishment as in a slap with some horrific murders of children via abuse we've ever seen. Especially when you consider

The case of Sweden is of much interest: there is controversy about whether the banning of corporal punishment in 1979 has produced positive results. A careful examination of the evidence (72, 73, 74) of the effects decades later shows that there has been a decrease in the prevalence of child abuse, and of child deaths due to abuse.

RainyDay

The link to the full Geshoff article is at the bottom of the press release that I linked to. Why does it matter whether Geshoff predated or postdated the Swedish study? [Which particular study are you referring to, btw?] Bringing out a new study doesn't automatically invalidate all earlier research.

TempestSabre

So that earlier research about the world being flat is still valid? :rolleyes:

RainyDay

Only if the later research includes several rolleyes smilies, as they really demolish any argument without any doubt. Do you think you could possibly have picked a less relevant analogy than flat earth theory?

But please do enlighten us as to which specific Swedish study you are now referring to?

TempestSabre

Seems very appropriate since it obviously dispoves what you said about old studies remaining valid, and without imature name calling. You'll probably find reading the thread properly, enlightening then.

RainyDay wrote:

I see little evidence of any enthusiasm for real evidence from the happy-slappers. .....I don't know whether to laugh or cry over the obsessive demands for 'links'....

For crying out loud, YOU asked for links

RainyDay wrote:

....Please show one example of where corporal punishment worked ....So please do show one example of where slapping or similar physican violence worked with adults, or even with kids.....

RainyDay wrote:

...Perhaps you'd like to lead by example and show some decent evidence to show that slapping does work. ...

The links "suggest" slapping was more successful than alternative methods. Obviously you didn't read any of it. Then you dismiss them as not "real evidence". Now you say what studies?

Thats some bizarre posting...

luckat

Seems to me that there's a couple of closed minds operating here. Not much point in discussing this further...?

democrates

The broad conclusions of studies are irrelevant to the individual.

In general slapping is hardly the best option, but in some rare situations it might be the lesser of two evils, when a person is heading for serious trouble, needs a wake up call and isn't listening to reason. That crisis situation argument doesn't serve as a fig leaf to cover slapping as an element of poor parenting though.

There's a big bad world out there. If kids don't get the idea early on that if you do wrong there's a sanction, some will fall by the wayside and make much bigger life-changing mistakes later on. It all depends on what works with the kid.

I think if it comes to a slap the parent likely hasn't been doing their job previously, nonetheless if a crisis arises and all else has failed to dissuade the kid from ruination, or there's no time, it might work on some, backfire with others. The relationship and mood are key, if it's that scumbag parent type of attack telling the kid they'll never be any good, bad news (you need a license to own a dog but any lout or wench can destroy a young childs self-confidence and hope). But if it's a parent who's trying to save their kid out of love, the kid knows that from past form and it also comes accross in the rest of the communication, it may save the day.

There's no one size fits all prescription. I think murder is bad, but if I had to save a loved one from a crazed aggressor I'd ram a screwdriver in their eye without a second thought. The crazed aggressor that is. Remourse yes, what a tragic loss, but sometimes you are forced to choose the lesser of two evils due to the wrongdoing of another. Not comparing the severity here, just the fact that there are always exceptions, extreme black or white positions aren't universally applicable.

And then there's the whole kinky thing between consenting adults, with the "now I have to punish you" and the "yes mistress, I've been a bad bad boy", who am I to judge?

TempestSabre

luckat wrote:

Seems to me that there's a couple of closed minds operating here. Not much point in discussing this further...?

Personally (since I don't know who thats aimed at) I'm not a fan of slapping. I'm just interested is there any evidence to back up my stance. I'm not seeing any here. Which I'm surprised at. Indeed when looking in to it I find that any seemingly unbias clinical studies prove the opposite. Which is alarming. Any little evidence that there is against corporal punishment is so bias as to be unreliable IMO. In fact theres a shocking lack of real clincial studies on any of this which is unbelievible.

The argument that its common sense not to use corporal punishment, is as bad as people using it because it seems common sense to use it. I found a lot of theories and commentaries pro corporal punishment but I choose not to post these as being light in facts/stats.

However I stand corrected that you CAN teach fish.

TempestSabre

democrates wrote:

The broad conclusions of studies are irrelevant to the individual.... just the fact that there are always exceptions, extreme black or white positions aren't universally applicable...

While I don't entirely understand everything you posted, however I broadly agree with what your saying.

secret_squirrel

democrates wrote:

In general slapping is hardly the best option,

I agree thats part of the point I am trying to make. Im not suggesting we should go around beating our kids, however I believe in reserving the right to slap/spank/smack any child I might have, if I believe it might be a useful parenting tool.

What gets me is those people who automatically rule it out as it is somehow 'evil' and culturally unsound all of a sudden. It smacks (sic) of faddishness and political correctness.

Surely including at least the potential for slapping your kids (as a parenting/educational tool) is inherently more openminded than completely ruling it out?

TempestSabre wrote:

Personally (since I don't know who thats aimed at) I'm not a fan of slapping. I'm just interested is there any evidence to back up my stance. I'm not seeing any here.

Ditto. My point of view as well.

mayhem#

I am just surprised by the number of people quoting studies on this issue.
Do they have so little self confidence that they are afraid to trust their own judgement?

E.

TempestSabre

I'm surprised how many people can't follow a simple thread.

Ickle Magoo

RainyDay wrote:

Is this the trick question where I'm supposed to say that I don't have kids, and you say 'Ah hah caught!'. Sorry to dissapoint you. But I don't accept your premise at all. There are many animal husbandry experts who've never set foot on the farm. They do their work in the labs. They learnt their trade in the universities. This doesn't mean that they don't have valid views & experiences on animal husbandry. Sometimes the people with no kids may well be able bring an objective, unemotional angle to bear on the subject. Sometimes the experts who have studied the research maybe able to speak at a macro level, whereas a parent drawing from their own personal experience is speaking solely about how their own kids worked out.

I find that positive parenting is extremely effective with my little girl. Catch her doing something right, and praise, praise, praise instead of constantly trying to catch her doing things wrong. Even from a very young age, I found that simple explanations for why she should/should not do things are very helpful too. Where necessary, I've found that a sharp raised voice combined with eye contact gets through to her when something more serious is required.

But I'm not claiming to be a leading expert or the world's best parent. I do know that I'll never hit my daughter - never - just not going to happen.

Now, bring on all the 'oh just wait until she's a teenager' posts from those who will claim to be able to predict the future.

No, it wasn't a trick question, the rest of the post wasn't directed at you - I use positive parenting as well and it was a genuine query....my sister doesn't agree with slapping or smacking as a form of punishment but has smacked her son once, when he pulled his hand out of hers & ran out onto the road....she couldn't time him out in the middle of the road or on the pavement as when she tried to hold him still on the pavement he burst out laughing and kicked her in the shins, punishment for young children need to be immediate or they don't understand so she couldn't wait until she got home, etc, etc....there are extreme situations where a smack may well be the only option available to a parent in terms of emphasising the gravity of the situation.....I have been in the position of needing to remonstrate and finding lectures on behaviour, stern words or dirty looks with a two or three yr old is completely innefective - regardless of the volumes of praise heaped upon them for good behaviour......now, my husband has never done anything other than raise his voice, either.....but then I'm the one who spends all day, everyday with them and so I am the one who sees the majority of the misbehaving & have to deal with it....so maybe that affects how I view it as well?.....

If you ask farmers how they feel about someone with no husbandry experience but who has learnt their suppositions through reading books & lab work, I would imagine you will get the same reaction as those who actually are parents trying to discuss real parenting issues react to those spouting about how they will discipline their theoretical children.....in my experience theoretical children are so much easier to parent & discipline than the real variety. I have no objections to fresh views and opinions, don't think anyone here does - but I would expect a roasting if I went on to the motoring board without being a driver or car owner & started bandying about my ideals for the roads and insulting those who actually are drivers & car owners....

RainyDay

I still don't get the 'crossing the road' story. Surely in case of problems when crossing the road, the sole priority when problems arise is getting your asses off the road urgently. The time taken to dish out a measured, directed slap is only going to add to the time spent on the road, and increase the risk of disaster. The only sensible thing to be done is the get a firm grip and get the little darling off the road urgently - anything else can wait. Of maybe it's not a measured, directed slap that people are thinking about - maybe it's a wild lashing out at anyone/anything within reach.

I still don't get your animal husbandry/motoring analogy either. Pedestrians & cyclists can provide very useful & relevant feedback to motorists, even though they don't drive themselves. They get the brunt of motorist actions. Their independent, unbaised opinion may be even more relevant than the motorist. So the views of non-parents (and non-motorists) are very relevant and welcome.

The 'families in trouble' show on RTE1 on Thursday was a great example in highlighting how ineffective slapping is as a method of discipline. Slapping of the child simply led to the child slapping back at both parents & peers - not too surprising really. If you're going to slap, you're telling your child that violence is an appropriate problem solving technique.

I don't get the 'last resort' option. What happens when the kid (as will inevitably happen) just ignores the first slap - Do you slap harder? Slap more? It is no more effective as a 'last resort' than non-violent options.

We don't own our kids. We care for them. You don't hit people you care for.

TempestSabre

Its very difficult if not impossible to drag by the hand a strong 2.5- 3yr old boy, who doesn't want you to. It not just that they are very strong, which they can often be, Thats are also awkward shape to lift easily, and are heavy. You have to be able to dead lift them, usually from behind so they can't wriggle out of your grasp. Lots of people can't do it even if they are not carrying a smaller child at the same time. Which mothers often are.

Those TV show incidentally always show extreme cases because it makes good TV and theres always other factors involved why the children are so badly behaved. Its not BECAUSE of slapping. When something doesn't work you try something else. Thats just common sense. :rolleyes:

Are you going to even comment on the "evidence" from Sweden you requested that demonstrates corporal punishment is effective under certain parameters. Or just ignore it? :rolleyes:

coffee_cake

To be honest (oh, I don't have kids btw, don't plan to but anything's possible) if I had a child I'd do my utmost to avoid slapping them, but not to the point of foolishness. I wasn't slapped as a child - a raised voice and maybe an explanation was enough, though I did get a threat of a slap once or twice - and I'm fine. However, different kids are different. If I had a 3 year old who ran out into the middle of the road and then kicked me and laughed at me for giving out, I'd try something else, and if I had to, that would include slapping.

I half agree with rainy's point on what happens when the effectiveness of slapping wears out, but I think if you do it very rarely it would be effective as surely there'd be some shock value as well. If they become accustomed to it it's probably a different story.

I just have to say good luck and so on to all the parents here for taking on such a responisibility

RainyDay

Thanks TempestSable for explaining how difficult it can be to get a toddler across the road. What you don't explain is
a) How a parent can possible hit their child in a controlled manner in such circumstances? How can the parent have any idea where the slap will land or what force is required?
b) How is a slap going to help this situation, given that it is quite likely that it will inflame the toddler further?
c) If the parent has one hand tied up to hold onto a different child, isn't it quite risky to remove their grip on the offending child for the purpose of hitting them?

Please do expand....

In relation to the TV shows, stating something in uppercase doesn't make it true i.e. "Its not BECAUSE of slapping". Such a broad generalisation is pretty meaningless. It was very clear on last week's show on RTE that the child had learned that it was OK to hit other people to get your own way, which isn't surprising at all.

In relation to Sweden, I'll be very happy to comment if you'll be so kind as to answer my earlier question and confirm which specific studies you'd like me to comment on. You avoided this question last time round. I'm sure you'll get round to a more detailed response to the APA study in time.

TempestSabre

You were given links to a report that showed disturbing stats as to the sucess rates of Corporal Punishment vs Alternatives. Ignoring that you want to know how to control your arm/hand accurately? Can you kick a ball? Kind of similar.

I used CAPS for emphasis. How is CAPS=True I didn't see the show I only gave a truism.

I've commented on all the other reports. I've even quoted from them. Ditto the reports/studies based on the Swedish studies. But heres a few more.

A Comparison of Two Recent Reviews of Scientific Studies of Physical Punishment by Parents by Larzelere, June 2002. In a more comprehensive review of Gershoff's article, Larzelere shows that "child outcomes associated with ordinary physical punishment are also associated with alternative disciplinary tactics when similar research methods are used. Detrimental child outcomes are associated with the frequency of any disciplinary tactic, not just physical punishment. Therefore, it is the excessive misbehavior that is the actual cause of detrimental outcomes in children."

Larzelere/Straus Debate (June, 1999) A summary of Dr. Larzelere's presentation in a debate with Straus about spanking. In this summary, Larzelere reports that the small detrimental child outcomes reported by Straus, Sugarman & Giles-Sims (1997) for 6- to 9-year-olds is not unique to spanking. A further analysis of the Straus, et al. data revealed that identical small detrimental child outcomes were also found for all four alternative disciplinary responses for 6- to 9-year-olds (grounding, sending the child to a room, removing privileges, and taking away an allowance). The debate was held at a conference of the National Foundation for Family Research and Education at Banff in Alberta, Canada.

In a recent article about the intervention selection bias, Larzelere shows that the research methods generally used to find detrimental child outcomes from nonabusive spanking would also find equally detrimental outcomes from recommended disciplinary techniques.

Robert E. Larzelere June 2002 - Summary

Two recent reviews have summarized child outcomes associated with physical punishment by parents.1 2 They arrive at somewhat different conclusions, even though their underlying information is consistent with each other. After documenting this, I will show that child outcomes associated with ordinary physical punishment are also associated with alternative disciplinary tactics when similar research methods are used. Detrimental child outcomes are associated with the frequency of any disciplinary tactic, not just physical punishment. Therefore, it is the excessive misbehavior that is the actual cause of detrimental outcomes in children.

To be honest I don't see the point in posting or quoting anymore when you have consistently ignored whats been posted, but want to know how its possible to control your arm movements. I just don't get that.

RainyDay

It seems that you are now evaiding the hard questions. With the toddler crossing the road, you may be able to control your hand/arm, but in the scenario you describe where the parent is trying to keep control of a 2nd child, then you can't control the misbehaving toddler and slap him/her at the same time. Once you draw your hand back to slap, you've lost your grip and lost control.

Just as use of uppercase doesn't make something true, calling something a truism doesn't make something true. It is difficult to understand why you bother commenting on a show you didn't see in the first place. Go watch the repeat and them see if you'd like to comment.

And by your own logic, the quotes from Larzelere are entirely irrelevant as the Gershoff study post-dates them, so they aren't worth anything - right?

Funnily enough, we can agree on one thing. There is little point in posting anymore if you're going to continue to evade the real issues.

TempestSabre

RainyDay wrote:

It seems that you are now evaiding the hard questions. With the toddler crossing the road, you may be able to control your hand/arm, but in the scenario you describe where the parent is trying to keep control of a 2nd child, then you can't control the misbehaving toddler and slap him/her at the same time. Once you draw your hand back to slap, you've lost your grip and lost control.

The hard question re: difficult task of controlling your are and hand? However seemingly now you "may" be able to do it?

Once again you are taking things out of context. I originally said...

TempestSabre wrote:

Context is everything.
A slap could stop a thrashing child from wriggling out of your grip crossing a busy road.

You said...

RainyDay wrote:

I...The only sensible thing to be done is the get a firm grip and get the little darling off the road urgently...

...and I said...

TempestSabre wrote:

Its very difficult if not impossible to drag by the hand a strong 2.5- 3yr old boy, who doesn't want you to. It not just that they are very strong, which they can often be, Thats are also awkward shape to lift easily, and are heavy. You have to be able to dead lift them, usually from behind so they can't wriggle out of your grasp. Lots of people can't do it even if they are not carrying a smaller child at the same time. Which mothers often are.

The 2nd comment was about manhandling a child off a road. Not about slapping a child. Thats the context.

RainyDay wrote:

Just as use of uppercase doesn't make something true, calling something a truism doesn't make something true. It is difficult to understand why you bother commenting on a show you didn't see in the first place. Go watch the repeat and them see if you'd like to comment.

Because are painting the picture that slapping is the sole issue there. Whereas I gave said "theres always other factors involved why the children are so badly behaved". If thats untrue then discuss that, instead of going on about the use of CAPS which is irrelevent. Unless of course you consider that the hard question I'm evading.

RainyDay wrote:

And by your own logic, the quotes from Larzelere are entirely irrelevant as the Gershoff study post-dates them, so they aren't worth anything - right?

By which logic exactly? Be specific.

Larzelere? Hey you found it! Care to comment on his report?

I already talked about Gershoff results. While commenting on the bias reports of a study (Gershoffs) which contradicts that of said author? http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=50952967&postcount=107

RainyDay wrote:

Funnily enough, we can agree on one thing. There is little point in posting anymore if you're going to continue to evade the real issues.

What real issue have I evaded? How to use your arm? The use of CAPS?

TempestSabre

Actually forget it I'm not interested in taking this OTT because of out of context irrelevent minute detail.

Heres some of reports for anyone thats interested in ACTUALLY reading them. They make for some interesting reading, and raise some issues. IMO its impossible to be satisfied with either sides conclusions. But worthly of discussion. Though obviously, a neutral discussion is seemingly impossible on such a emotive issue. People experience, or lack of it, cloud the viewpoint to a remarkable degree.

http://www.christian.org.uk/pdfpublications/sweden_smacking.pdf
http://epochnz.org.nz/images/stories//response_to_larzelere_on_sweden.pdf
http://people.biola.edu/faculty/paulp/rdurrunl.75.pdf
http://people.biola.edu/faculty/paulp/

Ickle Magoo

For some reason I just knew a "Christian" link was going to appear there.....lol!

TempestSabre

Ickle Magoo wrote:

For some reason I just knew a "Christian" link was going to appear there.....lol!

Whats funny about that. Theres a ton of links there from all view points?

katiemac

How do parents discipline their children these days?
I am not talking about babies up to 10 years old but from 11 to 18?
When you hear the bad language, and witness the aggressive temperments of some of these teenagers you wonder what way their parents reared them.
Is spanking gone these days and, if so, replaced with what form of discipline? Please don't tell me they are 'grounded'.

dubgirl

whats wrong with being grounded? I would take grounding to be a very good form of punishment to a teenager as they basically live for their friends and social life at this age. Also you could take away their priveleges ie. if they have a telly of a playstation in their room take it away - lock it up!

SmoothyG

Thats the only way, in order to protect children from abusive parents we have to ban all physical punishment. Taking things like playstations away is the hardest passive punishment. it works, it worked on me when i was a kid, jugrounding, no pocket money. why subject a child to physical pain as a punishment, this breeds the school of thought that physical pain is a siutable repraise, which they can then use. Violence of any kind towards another human should not be tolorated.

squire1

Make them watch Question and Answers or Countrywide. Honestly, there is noting teenagers hate more than current affairs or news from their country cousins. And they get educated at the same time. Two birds with one stone:D