The Slapping Debate.

TempestSabre

katiemac wrote:

How do parents discipline their children these days?
I am not talking about babies up to 10 years old but from 11 to 18?
When you hear the bad language, and witness the aggressive temperments of some of these teenagers you wonder what way their parents reared them.
Is spanking gone these days and, if so, replaced with what form of discipline? Please don't tell me they are 'grounded'.

If you don't have control or the respect of your kids at that age the problem started years before.

How does banning its stop abusive parents? Studies in Sweden suggest it doesn't.

I don't have a problem with the odd slap, but the majority of the time there are more effective ways of discipline, so why use the least effective?

Talliesin

Banning it would help stop abusive parents by making it easier to prove violence wasn't "within acceptable levels".

It's easy to think it wouldn't do any harm to ban it, since it's bloody useless as a form of discipline, but it could do damage though if we get an analogous situation to when bad teachers who'd relied upon violence to get something done had the one means they relied on taken away.

TempestSabre

Talliesin wrote:

Banning it would help stop abusive parents by making it easier to prove violence wasn't "within acceptable levels".

It's easy to think it wouldn't do any harm to ban it, since it's bloody useless as a form of discipline, but it could do damage though if we get an analogous situation to when bad teachers who'd relied upon violence to get something done had the one means they relied on taken away.

Is proving violence wasn't "within acceptable levels" the significant problem then?

luckat

And here we go again....!

I think there is a division. One group of parents feels strongly that it's ok to give a child a slap, it didn't do themselves any harm, etc.

Another uses a completely different method, reinforcing desired behaviours, and helping kids to learn how to be courteous and civilised.

Then there's a bunch of in-betweens ranging from one end of this spectrum to the other.

The reinforcement method explained: for instance, a parent has a kid who's having huge tantrums. So she sits down with the kid in a calm moment, and offers a system of tokens - you can design and print out vouchers, or use a jar of marbles, or little cars and things. Thing is, the tokens are symbolic.

When the kid does something good - for instance, helping to load the stuff from the supermarket trolley on to the counter, or being helpful to his little sister. or sitting down quietly with homework, or going to bed at the correct time, or getting up and dressed fast, or... well, you get the idea - when a kid does any desired behaviour, he's got a chance of getting a token.

These tokens are exchangeable at agreed rates: for instance, five tokens could be watch-a-DVD.

The trick is to reward often, and to make the exchange rate desirable.

Then when the day comes that the kid is about to throw himself into a tantrum. The mammy holds up her hand and says: "Hold it a moment. You're going to have a huge temper tantrum, right? Well, you can have it, but if you want it, you have to pay me back two of your tokens."

(In fact, it's better to arrange this in the first place - a tantrum can be bought for two tokens.)

So the kid can stop and choose. Is it worth it? If it is, he can run and get a couple of tokens, then throw himself wholeheartedly into the tantrum. He's bought it! He'll damn well get good value for his tokens!

The good thing about this is that it gives the kid power over his life: he can choose whether to vent his anger or not.

There should never be the sense of *fining* the kid - that takes away the value of the lesson. He's buying his right to a tantrum - so he can choose whether he'd prefer to have the tantrum or the DVD-watching (or sweets, or, for maybe 10 tokens, a particular toy or a trip to the seaside...)

deisemum

Talliesin wrote:

Banning it would help stop abusive parents by making it easier to prove violence wasn't "within acceptable levels".

It's easy to think it wouldn't do any harm to ban it, since it's bloody useless as a form of discipline, but it could do damage though if we get an analogous situation to when bad teachers who'd relied upon violence to get something done had the one means they relied on taken away.

It may have been taken away from teachers but there are still teachers who still ignore the ban.

Forget Questions & Answers and Countrywide, watching Pat the Plank on the Late Late would be a better punishment

TempestSabre

luckat wrote:

And here we go again....!...

The last thread we had on this clearly showed what what little scientic data there is, isn't conculsive. But the adage of everything in moderation seemed to be most effective, from the studies. The reality is that is a highly emotive issue and most people won't look at the data and prefer just to stick rigidily to their own beliefs.

kelle

luckat wrote:

The reinforcement method explained: for instance, a parent has a kid who's having huge tantrums. So she sits down with the kid in a calm moment, and offers a system of tokens - you can design and print out vouchers, or use a jar of marbles, or little cars and things. Thing is, the tokens are symbolic.

When the kid does something good - for instance, helping to load the stuff from the supermarket trolley on to the counter, or being helpful to his little sister. or sitting down quietly with homework, or going to bed at the correct time, or getting up and dressed fast, or... well, you get the idea - when a kid does any desired behaviour, he's got a chance of getting a token.

These tokens are exchangeable at agreed rates: for instance, five tokens could be watch-a-DVD.

The trick is to reward often, and to make the exchange rate desirable.

Then when the day comes that the kid is about to throw himself into a tantrum. The mammy holds up her hand and says: "Hold it a moment. You're going to have a huge temper tantrum, right? Well, you can have it, but if you want it, you have to pay me back two of your tokens."

(In fact, it's better to arrange this in the first place - a tantrum can be bought for two tokens.)

So the kid can stop and choose. Is it worth it? If it is, he can run and get a couple of tokens, then throw himself wholeheartedly into the tantrum. He's bought it! He'll damn well get good value for his tokens!

The good thing about this is that it gives the kid power over his life: he can choose whether to vent his anger or not.

There should never be the sense of *fining* the kid - that takes away the value of the lesson. He's buying his right to a tantrum - so he can choose whether he'd prefer to have the tantrum or the DVD-watching (or sweets, or, for maybe 10 tokens, a particular toy or a trip to the seaside...)

Might work with some children, but not my son. After two horrible experiences (I had more of a problem with the brain-dead spectators than my son taking the tantrum) I just didn't take him anywhere until he stopped taking tantrums. I'd leave my shopping till his dad got home from work - he was happier doing jobs with Daddy than being warned to stay beside mummy in the shops!
My daughter's a dream in comparison - never takes a tantrum.

TempestSabre

Its true, every kid is different. Not all 2-4 yr olds will have the patience for an elaborate token system. Luckily ours like grapes and a bunch of grapes keep them distracted long enough to get the shopping done.

BrianCalgary

Gave all three of my kids a little wack now and then. They weren't interested in reason at those moments.

They are now 17, 15 and 13. The greatest kids a Dad could want. haven't wacked anyone since about 1997.

It wasn't hard just firm. Used to hit them harder when wrestling with them. It was the purpose of it that either got the calm or the behaviour change.

Today they give us no grief, but that is because we spent time with them. We skied together, played together, I coach them, etc.

We just loved them and showed that love.

greenkittie

People have been discipling children in this way for a very long time with no ill effects, all these new systems are just child psychologist BS. If you ground a child or take away its toys it just breeds resentment and frustration.

Kashkai

I've never hit my kids and I hope I never will. Don't get me wrong, kids can drive you to distraction but how can you be bouncing them on your knee one day and then slapping them the next. They are a fraction of an adult's size and the force of a blow from a grown up might not be powerful in the adult's eyes but the kid will surely feel it.

My 6 year old is wonderful 99% of the time but when she gets bold (and I mean really bold as opposed to being a little cheeky), all it takes is a cross look from me to put her back in line.

I can understand how kids would throw temper tantrums in shops, hell I get annoyed when I'm forced to trudge around a shopping centre by my wife as its boring as hell. Kids want to be playing not waiting for mum to decide which pair of shoes she should buy to add to the 100's of other pairs she already has. I stay at home with my kids when my wife goes shopping and this suits all of us - she can shop till she drops, and the kids and I get to do something fun.

TempestSabre

I assumed they were taking about shopping for the necessities like milk bread, food etc, and have no one to leave the child with. But shopping for yet more shoes ??? You can't seriously think that all kids are so placid that a "cross look" works for them all?

Personally I find those super nanny tactics are useful. Some work, some don't. It totally depends on the child personality. In the same way slapping doesn't always work either. The studies I've read seem to support that, though the data could be considered somewhat subjective. Like alot of statistics I suppose.

Kashkai

TempestSabre wrote:

I assumed they were taking about shopping for the necessities like milk bread, food etc, and have no one to leave the child with. But shopping for yet more shoes ??? You can't seriously think that all kids are so placid that a "cross look" works for them all?

Personally I find those super nanny tactics are useful. Some work, some don't. It totally depends on the child personality. In the same way slapping doesn't always work either. The studies I've read seem to support that, though the data could be considered somewhat subjective. Like alot of statistics I suppose.

With supermarkets opening 24 hours in most urban centres, shopping for groceries can be left till late in the evening when one parent can stay at home to mind the kids.

I never said my 6 year old was placid. Yes she's a great kid but can be cheeky as hell when the mood strikes her (gets it from the wife;)) . However, talking to her and/or giving the cross look works for us. My brothers have the same attitude to their kids and a raised voice and/or look is all it takes for their kids to get back in line.

If people can accept striking a child as being acceptable, where do you draw the line? When they are 8, 10, 14, 16? Should the physical punishment be meted out to the wife/husband as well? I'd have thought there was enough violence on this planet already.:(

TempestSabre

The evening is when I shop for expensive watches myself. I'm sure other people have time consuming hobbies they use there evening for, extreme ironing and such like. Is this "look" anything like this...

http://www.imdb.com/gallery/ss/0196229/Ss/0196229/zool_01.jpg?path=gallery&path_key=0196229

Kashkai

TempestSabre wrote:

The evening is when I shop for expensive watches myself. I'm sure other people have time consuming hobbies they use there evening for, extreme ironing and such like. Is this "look" anything like this...

http://www.imdb.com/gallery/ss/0196229/Ss/0196229/zool_01.jpg?path=gallery&path_key=0196229

LOL:D

Love that film

Nope, the "look" is more akin to a neandarthal with a toothache, all furrowed brows, eyebrows meeting in the middle and a snarl!!!!!!

TempestSabre

Prosperous Dave wrote:

...the "look" is more akin to a neandarthal with a toothache, all furrowed brows, eyebrows meeting in the middle and a snarl!!!!!!

I see the problem. Some of are simply too good looking to produce such a grimace unfortunately. :eek:

The "shoes" + "Prosperous" Dave = it all clicks...:)

Beware though babies are good mimicks
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/blogs/parenting/category?blogid=29&cat=753

Snowbie

Wolfman.:D

In general,each parents here have there own view on how to correct children,whatever way they approach it wont make them better or worse than how the next parent does it.Its a difficult job fullstop.

Refering to the OP,the teenage years imho are the troublesome years.Forget about the terrible 2s etc,its terrible teenagers,now thats a more daunting task to get a grips with.I have been often told by other Parents(and mainly mothers at that)that when your daughters are such and such an age(teenagers) the trouble you will have with them blah blah blah.Now i usually have a polite go away for them and to stop comparing my children to theirs.

Its not all about their upbringing i dont think,its who they hang around with that can ignite the "Rebel" in them.You can be all class of backgrounds and for this instance,the wrong mix of peers can lead them astray and your lovely little baby/child is now a .........

In the end of the day,all we can do is our best and try to keep them out of harms way.But sometimes its not that plain simple either.

Kashkai

Snowbie wrote:

Wolfman.:D

In general,each parents here have there own view on how to correct children,whatever way they approach it wont make them better or worse than how the next parent does it.Its a difficult job fullstop.

Refering to the OP,the teenage years imho are the troublesome years.Forget about the terrible 2s etc,its terrible teenagers,now thats a more daunting task to get a grips with.I have been often told by other Parents(and mainly mothers at that)that when your daughters are such and such an age(teenagers) the trouble you will have with them blah blah blah.Now i usually have a polite go away for them and to stop comparing my children to theirs.

Its not all about their upbringing i dont think,its who they hang around with that can ignite the "Rebel" in them.You can be all class of backgrounds and for this instance,the wrong mix of peers can lead them astray and your lovely little baby/child is now a .........

In the end of the day,all we can do is our best and try to keep them out of harms way.But sometimes its not that plain simple either.

Now I wasn't going to start having a go at you again Snowbro but.......WTF??:eek:

You were the ultimate little CHEEKY, ANNOYING, AGGRAVATING so and so when we were growing up. As the baby of the clan, you got away with blue murder from day one. The number of times freckleface and I considered throwing you down the stairs...............

Now our parents didn't hit us, but there were times when an exception could have been made for you - we could all have joined in. Don't you recall sneaking around the back of the couch when you were a kid and hitting me over the head. When I went after you, you hid behind your mammy saying "he's going to hit me" and I'd be told to stop being a bully:mad:

As for my teenage daughters (in years to come), they will be a problem for my wife. I'm not getting involved in the too much makeup/short skirt rows as it will only annoy me so I'm turning a blind eye. Until they bring home some spotty little git with bumfluff over his top lip and his "scanger my banger" parked outside. Then I'll set the dogs on him.:D

Snowbie

OMG your off again Phosphurus Dave:rolleyes: All i say is "the little green eyed monster in you".:D

Go on give us the look again.GRRRRRRR!!!!:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: Wolfie.

Nevyn

Guys enough already, give over don't make me give you a time out.

Kashkai

Thaedydal wrote:

Guys enough already, give over don't make me give you a time out.

Well he started it....:D

Ok Thaed, I'm not going to get into another slagging match with him as he's a sore loser.

I'll keep my comments for the topic in question - promise!!!

greenkittie

I dunno about this stern look stuff. A stern look could never have controled me as a child, hell a slap now and again never managed too either but i think im particularly head strong.

GWolf

I hope to god spanking is gone. I never had a hand laid on me,and if it had ever had happened, quite frankly I never would have forgiven them. And I'm serious.

My dad always found just silent guilt ridden anger was a good way. He wouldn't talk to us, he'd just let us stew until we apologised. Of course we'e very close, so it might not work in every family.

Blush_01

We got threatened with (and hit with) the wooden spoon. God, the handle of a wooden spoon across the back of your legs/backside while you're being made to lie over a chair... I can still remember it. Got my mouth washed out with soap once or twice too. To be honest, I don't think it did that much harm. Although, we didn't mind it being done to ourselves as much as we loathed seeing a cousin getting a thump. My dad used to knock me on top of the head with his knuckles too... but I was a brat (I once sold my sister for 10p to my uncle's family).

It's not gone. But it's definitely less common than it was.

loismustdie

most of us were smacked as children, no harm done but things have changed. is this still an acceptable form of punishment. i remember i was normally a very good child because i didn't want to be slapped or in the bad books with parents.

simu

I'm never going to do it. I remember my own mother doing it the odd time when I was a kid and I think, looking back, she could have handeled those situations differently.

Jo King

The way things are going, if a parent looks sideways at a child, the child will probably taken into care and the parent will face criminal charges. It was a lot different when I was a child when teachers who used their canes lavishly (which was even then completely illegal) were praised by parents. parents used to boast about how hard they were on their children as if this showed they ran a good home.

spurious

I passed a young man in the city centre one day. He had two kids with him - a boy of about 5 and a girl of about 2.

He had the boy by the arm as he slapped his legs repeatedly saying (a slap with every second word) "I _ _ told _ _ you _ _ not _ _ to _ _ hit _ _ your _ _ sister!!'.

The girl stood there crying and terrified.

Hitting kids does nothing but teach them if you are bigger than someone and cannot get them to do what you want, then you can hit them to see if that works.

Nevyn

This discussion has been done a few times already and while I dont object to it being had again I will not be leinent what so ever to breaches of the charter
and uncivil behaviour, just so everyone is clear.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=234210

Nevyn

Jo King wrote:

The way things are going, if a parent looks sideways at a child, the child will probably taken into care and the parent will face criminal charges.

Actually it is very hard for social workers to get a court order to take a child into care, they prefer to work with the parents in a situation if possible and keep the chid in the home.