Bye-Elections Tallies and Results

Villain

I believe that to be the case Earthman.

Roisin Dubh, I think FF have taken a real beaten here and are now left with NO TD in Kildare North. I would also tend to take the result of an election all be it a bye-election far more serious than an opinion poll.

I work in Kildare North and everyday I laugh at the ammount of houses been built in Sallins and Clane without any real increase in schools or roads. The Celtic tiger has been with us long enough to have developed our infrastructure, but it has not happened and now these areas are suffering badly.

If Mr McCreevy had put the same interest in developing schools and roads as he did in Punchestown Race Course, FF might have a North Kildare TD. You reap what you sow and FF will reap a lot of bad results in the next General Election, but hey at least we'll have a nice race course

irish1

irish1 wrote:

I work in Kildare North and everyday I laugh at the ammount of houses been built in Sallins and Clane without any real increase in schools or roads. The Celtic tiger has been with us long enough to have developed our infrastructure, but it has not happened and now these areas are suffering badly.

But dont the building companies pay a development levy to the county councils?
Local councillors surely have been negligent in not providing some services.
Schools are a department issue, yes.The expenditure on Roads is a council issue as is water and sewrage and to an extent creche facilities and the like etc.

If Mr McCreevy had put the same interest in developing schools and roads as he did in Punchestown Race Course, FF might have a North Kildare TD. You reap what you sow and FF will reap a lot of bad results in the next General Election, but hey at least we'll have a nice race course

That may well be the case, but do you really think that if McCreevy stayed and that this was a general election that he would have lost his seat? I doubt it.
You must take into account that Mccreevy's supporters were very píssed off at the manner of his removal to Brussels and a lot of them didnt canvass.
I actually know of some who didnt vote at all, they were that keen to teach Bertie a lesson on this occasion and those were FF supporters.

Villain

Earthman wrote:

But dont the building companies pay a development levy to the county councils?
Local councillors surely have been negligent in not providing some services.
Schools are a department issue, yes.The expenditure on Roads is a council issue as is water and sewrage and to an extent creche facilities and the like etc.

Well I agree some issues are the responisblity of the council, but the government has failed the people of North Kildare on many issues.

Earthman wrote:

That may well be the case, but do you really think that if McCreevy stayed and that this was a general election that he would have lost his seat? I doubt it.
You must take into account that Mccreevy's supporters were very píssed off at the manner of his removal to Brussels and a lot of them didnt canvass.
I actually know of some who didnt vote at all, they were that keen to teach Bertie a lesson on this occasion and those were FF supporters.

Well I would argue then that McCreevy's vote was more of a pesonal vote than a party vote. I mean who wouldn't vote to have the Minister for Finance in your constituency, Charlie looked after his upper class supporters quite well but he has left behind some very serious issues e.g. the lack of schools.

I mean who could argue that schools should have come before an extension to a race course

irish1

irish1 wrote:

I mean who could argue that schools should have come before an extension to a race course

I thought that the Curragh race course was in the south Kildare constituency?
It's located halfway between Newbridge and Kildare town anyway, both of which are in the Kildare south constituency.

cdebru

Slutmonkey57b wrote:

Interesting that a SF voter's second preferences would transfer to FF, given that one is theoretically a marxist socialist party while the other is the main bastion of thatcherism.

the fact that the labour and SF were eliminated at the same time means that it would be impossible to know where the votes came from or indeed if they were second preference
the second preference could have gone to candidates who had already been eliminated so they could have been 3rd 4th 5th etc preferences

and it is not that surprising that some SF voters would transfer to FF. SFs vote comes mostly fro m working class areas that historically FF have always done well in
and of course preference votes always throw up surprises the last assembly elections up the north Ian paisleys surplus when divided 32 votes went to sinn fein now what is that all about

Villain

Its in the same county Earthman, I really don't see how it matters that it's in another constituency. The point is the former TD for the area pushed through a project that saw a lot of money spent on a race course while in the same county schools are very badly needed.

irish1

irish1 wrote:

Its in the same county Earthman, I really don't see how it matters that it's in another constituency.

He's not a co.councillor so his remit since the boundary change was actually only the north constituency, yet he poured money into a race course in the south and more rural part of the county(did he do that before the split by the way)I wonder did that bring jobs to rural south Kildare? would there have been any spin off in terms of money to local businesses? There is a large racing industry located there, with a lot of employment,argueably its no different than grant aiding U.S industries that provide a lot of jobs eg intel(though the latest tract to them has been vetoed by the E.U)
It's a grey area of argument to be asking which is more important , pumping money into an industry that provides jobs locally or pumping it into services.
Obviously it would be better to be pumping it into both ergo theres an argument for extra expenditure but not one for favouring one over the other.

Villain

Earthman wrote:

He's not a co.councillor so his remit since the boundary change was actually only the north constituency, yet he poured money into a race course in the south and more rural part of the county(did he do that before the split by the way)I wonder did that bring jobs to rural south Kildare? would there have been any spin off in terms of money to local businesses? There is a large racing industry located there, with a lot of employment,argueably its no different than grant aiding U.S industries that provide a lot of jobs eg intel(though the latest tract to them has been vetoed by the E.U)
It's a grey area of argument to be asking which is more important , pumping money into an industry that provides jobs locally or pumping it into services.
Obviously it would be better to be pumping it into both ergo theres an argument for extra expenditure but not one for favouring one over the other.

Well Earthman I think schools should come first, I would welcome any extra jobs to the area, but I think you'll find it hard to get people to fill those jobs if there's no schools in the area for their children.

The infrastructure should come FIRST Earthman not the houses or jobs, thats what good planning is all about.

irish1

irish1 wrote:

The infrastructure should come FIRST Earthman not the houses or jobs, thats what good planning is all about.

Oh I agree, but apart from schools, much of the infrastructural needs are looked after by the co council are they not? haven't they failed in a lot of instances?

By the way, my own local national school just got a huge extension including a sports hall,part paid for by the state and the parents and yet this county hadnt a government minister at the time it was sanctioned...

Cork

Oh I agree, but apart from schools, much of the infrastructural needs are looked after by the co council are they not? haven't they failed in a lot of instances?

Local authorities get development levys from building contractors to cater for roads, public parks etc.

This stuff has more do do with deficiencys of local government.

The infrastructure should come FIRST Earthman not the houses or jobs

They are many empty advance factorys around this country. If you put in the infrasturture - the jobs will not automatically come.

If that was the case - all advance factories would have occupants which is not the reality.

Villain

Yes Earthman as I already said some issues are the responisblity of the council, but the Government has failed to provide the schools or the new roads.

I think even the FF candidate in the Bye-election accepted that the provision of schools in the county was a real issue that the government had failed to resolve.

I may be over simplfying my point here, but I really don't see how anyone including FF supporters could support the extension of a race course over the provision of schools in a county.

Villain

Cork wrote:

Local authorities get development levys from building contractors to cater for roads, public parks etc.

This stuff has more do do with deficiencys of local government.



They are many empty advance factorys around this country. If you put in the infrasturture - the jobs will not automatically come.

If that was the case - all advance factories would have occupants which is not the reality.

Cork, I stated that the main issue here is schools and if you believe that housing estates should be built before schools, roads etc you are seriously deluded.

Cork

irish1 wrote:

I may be over simplfying my point here, but I really don't see how anyone including FF supporters could support the extension of a race course over the provision of schools in a county.

Irish1 - Name another Irish government that has spent more on education?

Villain

Cork - Throwing money at a problem doesn't gurantee a solution, the population is nearing 5 million but imo we still have an infrastructure to cater for 3.5 million.

Also name an Irish Government that has had as much money to spend.

You can't seriously suggest that Punchestown race course is more important than providing schools?

Cork

irish1 wrote:

You can't seriously suggest that Punchestown race course is more important than providing schools?

FF did not build the Punchestown race course.

FF have achieved much in getting this country back to work - but I think they never took any credit for the Punchestown race.

Are you referring to the Event Centre?

That project had zero impact on the education budget.

The capital budget for schools has been increased by multiples.

Is the event centre worthwhile - I don't know.

But I believe that schools/event centre is not an either/or arguement.

Villain

Cork wrote:

FF did not build the Punchestown race course.

FF have achieved much in getting this country back to work - but I think they never took any credit for the Punchestown race.

Are you referring to the Event Centre?

That project had zero impact on the education budget.

The capital budget for schools has been increased by multiples.

Is the event centre worthwhile - I don't know.

But I believe that schools/event centre is not an either/or arguement.

Maybe not to you but I think people who live in the area will disagree, on one hand they see money been poured into Punchestown race course ( I believe thats where the event centre is located) on the other hand they can't find a school to send their children to.

You see the type of reply you gave is the very reason why FF now have no TD's in Kildare North. People don't care what budget the money for the event centre came from, it came from the tax payers money and it came before schools.

Cork

irish1 wrote:

People don't care what budget the money for the event centre came from, it came from the tax payers money and it came before schools.

So you are saying - savings could be found elsewhere to be put into schools?

Social Welfare being a high spending department?
Money could be saved if Bertie would put fincail sanction on SF?

But in all seriousness the facts are - the school capital budget is large.

But that said the department of Education needs to plan better and stop relying on exclusively on census figures.

Villain

Not large enough obviously!

Cork

irish1 wrote:

Not large enough obviously!

that too can be said for health, social welfare and education.

But much money is being spent in all these areas.

Sure money has to be wisely by both central and local government.

monument

Are you trying to justify the €14.8 million given to build the "agricultural and equestrian event centre" at Punchestown? This was the FULL amount to build the centre!

http://archives.tcm.ie/businesspost/2003/11/23/story850229515.asp

Roisin Dubh

Worth noting that the 32.4% showing for FF in Meath was their best by-election vote-share for 11 years.

Nuttzz

cdebru wrote:

I think it is funny they were all on telling us SF is finished a few weeks ago when SF increases it vote in the meath by election they write it off as a personal vote

bollox if it was just a personal vote it would not have gone up besides that joe o'reilly has been accompanied by every SF personality under the sun it is not like he has distanced himself or ran as an independent

much to the dismay of the SF bashers the SF vote has withstood everything thrown at it the opinion polls show little or no slippage and here is a real poll and the SF vote is up on the last GE

perhaps the SF vote was affected but if it was how high would it have been without the events of recent weeks

In the 2002 election he got just over 6000 votes same as this time. SF voters are loyal, i'll give them that, and SF are good at mobilising their vote, however the number of transfers he got were quite low and I think if a general election was called in the morning the core SF vote would stay in and around the same level but the level of transfers will be the big factor.

Its too early to write off the government based on this bye election but at the same time its too early to write of SF either.

Victor

Roisin Dubh wrote:

What has this Government privatised? Eircom and TSB and ICC. That's it! The unions still have an effective veto on reform in the public-sector.

And ACC and Luas and INPC and the state telecoms sector (IOL, Ocean, etc.) and refuse collection and sewage treatment and local authority construction and clamping and managing the state pension fund and IT and bits of state companies and the school bus service and PPP toll roads and PPP schools and TV production and PR and percentages of the ESB and Aer Lingus .....

Of course the state here isn't involved in education (90% non-state in Ireland), health (90% non-state in Ireland) or childcare (99% non-state in Ireland) in the way many countries are.