How much infulence do the IRA council have over Sinn Fein?

mycroft · 13-03-2005 1:59am #1

Monument raised an interesting point in another thread, in a way, about IRA intimidation over potential voters.

How much infulence do the IRA council have over SF?

Eamonn Mc Cann wrote in his book that the IRA encouraged him after a prison spell, to become active in the local branch of SF, he did, he became an infulencial figure in his branch in the 70s.

We can assume, as cdebru does, that most if not all IRA men are active in SF, as members and play a part in the organisation. We can also assume because their loyalists lie primarly with the council, they will, most likely vote and support the issues that the council raises, or feel important.

Now at which point some people will go, yeah so what SF have thousands of members. Well, most of them won't have the rigid discipline that the army, ahem, occasionaly displays. Having perhaps 100s of party activists, playing a role in party, following council orders, give the council a great deal of support on a grass roots level, as Henry Mc Donald put it abiut the recent Ard Féis

So, for example, motions from radical branches in the Republic calling on the party to support abortion rights for women will be voted down with a collective show of hands from delegates under IRA army instruction.

From here

For anyone who has experienced the cut and thrust of political debate, knowing that you have a core group of delegates that will vote whatever way you desire, allows you enormous infulence on policy, strategy, hell even potential candiates.

To any southern SF voter, with left wing leanings. We know IRA members are active in SF, we know, the council still exists, and it would not be an outlandish suposition to wonder if the council is flexing its political muscles among the party? At many different levels. Therefore is it healthy of a political party to have associations with a paramilitary organisation with a military decision making structure?

FTA69 · 13-03-2005 2:18am

We can also assume because their loyalists lie primarly with the council, they will, most likely vote and support the issues that the council raises, or feel important.

Not necessarily, the IRA don't have absolute control over their members when said members are involved in Sinn Féin activities. Despite the stories IRA and Sinn Féin activities are kept strictly apart.

Having perhaps 100s of party activists, playing a role in party, following council orders, give the council a great deal of support on a grass roots level, as Henry Mc Donald put it abiut the recent Ard Féis

IRA activists are not competing with Sinn Féin and they don't seek to establish some sort of clique within the party itself. As I said above, Sinn Féin buisiness is dealt with in a Sinn Féin capacity and delegates regardless of their affiliation are left to make their own decisions.

So, for example, motions from radical branches in the Republic calling on the party to support abortion rights for women will be voted down with a collective show of hands from delegates under IRA army instruction.

This is an interesting quote mycroft, but also one which happens to be complete lies, Óglaigh na hÉireann is not opposed to abortion but neither is it supportive, IRA members' views on this issue take very diverse forms. There is no cohesive decisions within the Army to either support or oppose abortion, as I said above, it is the perogative of every Sinn Féin member what they vote for at a Sinn Féin Ard Fheis.

true · 13-03-2005 5:20am

FTA69 wrote:

Not necessarily, the IRA don't have absolute control over their members when said members are involved in Sinn Féin activities. Despite the stories IRA and Sinn Féin activities are kept strictly apart.

IRA activists are not competing with Sinn Féin and they don't seek to establish some sort of clique within the party itself. As I said above, Sinn Féin buisiness is dealt with in a Sinn Féin capacity and delegates regardless of their affiliation are left to make their own decisions.

This is an interesting quote mycroft, but also one which happens to be complete lies, Óglaigh na hÉireann is not opposed to abortion but neither is it supportive, IRA members' views on this issue take very diverse forms. There is no cohesive decisions within the Army to either support or oppose abortion, as I said above, it is the perogative of every Sinn Féin member what they vote for at a Sinn Féin Ard Fheis.

Surely the only people that know this would be the people in the IRA itself. And they not necessarily tell junior members of Sinn Fein like FTA69 the truth if they thought it might alienate him and people like him, who think its a dandy little democratic set up.

If its the truth, how do you know FTA69 ? Anyway, if it was a disciplined army , as it sometimes likes to think of itself as, surely it would urge its members to vote in a disciplined manner re. certain matters it thought of as being of strategic importance?

mycroft · 13-03-2005 1:34pm

FTA69 wrote:

Not necessarily, the IRA don't have absolute control over their members when said members are involved in Sinn Féin activities. Despite the stories IRA and Sinn Féin activities are kept strictly apart.

FTA69, what I'm beginning to find absolutely fascinating is that we know so little about the make up of the council, it's members, etc, but you can catergorically tell me that IRA and Sinn Féin activities are kept strictly apart. How do you know?

IRA activists are not competing with Sinn Féin and they don't seek to establish some sort of clique within the party itself. As I said above, Sinn Féin buisiness is dealt with in a Sinn Féin capacity and delegates regardless of their affiliation are left to make their own decisions.

Again how do we know? And for example, the majority of US soldiers are firm republican party voters, how do we know that the IRA members in Sinn Fein don't vote allong IRA council lines.

This is an interesting quote mycroft, but also one which happens to be complete lies, Óglaigh na hÉireann is not opposed to abortion but neither is it supportive, IRA members' views on this issue take very diverse forms. There is no cohesive decisions within the Army to either support or oppose abortion, as I said above, it is the perogative of every Sinn Féin member what they vote for at a Sinn Féin Ard Fheis.

Nice, ignore the gist of the quote. The quote stated that delegates trying to switch the parties position to one actively pro choice were voted down by IRA members. So once again, delegates who tried to change the party position from, neither for, nor aganist the issue, were voted down to mantain the status quo.

The Sinn Féin position on this matter is extremely handy neither for nor aganist, thus ensuring they maintain their support among southern liberals and dyed in the wool norhtern catholics. A handy fence sitting position which may I say Sinn Fein have worked a fine ass groove on.

Once again you seem remarkably well informed of IRA members opinions.

FTA69 · 13-03-2005 1:59pm

FTA69, what I'm beginning to find absolutely fascinating is that we know so little about the make up of the council, it's members, etc, but you can catergorically tell me that IRA and Sinn Féin activities are kept strictly apart. How do you know?

Because I have been involved in a lot of Sinn Féin business over the past few years and IRA activities and business is not discussed or outlined or whatever at meetings and conferences and so on. It has is handled in a different capacity by the IRA themselves.

Again how do we know? And for example, the majority of US soldiers are firm republican party voters, how do we know that the IRA members in Sinn Fein don't vote allong IRA council lines.

The beliefs of Sinn Féin and the IRA are pretty much the same so the comparison with Republicans and Democrats in America is redundant.

Nice, ignore the gist of the quote. The quote stated that delegates trying to switch the parties position to one actively pro choice were voted down by IRA members. So once again, delegates who tried to change the party position from, neither for, nor aganist the issue, were voted down to mantain the status quo.

And I'm saying that's complete rubbish, the IRA as an organisation is not "pro choice", it doesn't really concern itself with matters such as this and opinion is as diverse within that organisation as it is within Sinn Féin.

The Sinn Féin position on this matter is extremely handy neither for nor aganist, thus ensuring they maintain their support among southern liberals and dyed in the wool norhtern catholics. A handy fence sitting position which may I say Sinn Fein have worked a fine ass groove on.

Sinn Féin believes in abortion in cases of potential suicide, rape or incest if I recall correctly. However, I agree with you to an extent on the flimsiness of the position, I myself am resolutely pro-choice but many others would not be. It's a complicated issue.

Cork · 13-03-2005 2:05pm

Has SF ever been critical of the IRA?

Senior SF people are in leadership positions of the IRA.

The armalite in one hand and a armalite in the other?

This is SF/IRA.

mycroft · 13-03-2005 2:18pm

FTA69 wrote:

Because I have been involved in a lot of Sinn Féin business over the past few years and IRA activities and business is not discussed or outlined or whatever at meetings and conferences and so on. It has is handled in a different capacity by the IRA themselves.

And my point is A) what would a 17yo know. and

if this is being done clandestine its hardly going to be discussed in front of you.

The beliefs of Sinn Féin and the IRA are pretty much the same so the comparison with Republicans and Democrats in America is redundant.

Are you just willfully not understanding me or what?

I was citing the behaviour of members of the US armed forces to vote in certain direction, I wasn't talking about specific US policies.

And I'm saying that's complete rubbish, the IRA as an organisation is not "pro choice", it doesn't really concern itself with matters such as this and opinion is as diverse within that organisation as it is within Sinn Féin.

And I'm saying that in order to maintain its support in staunchly catholic areas that for one example the IRA rigged the vote to ensure SF remained neutral.

Sinn Féin believes in abortion in cases of potential suicide, rape or incest if I recall correctly. However, I agree with you to an extent on the flimsiness of the position, I myself am resolutely pro-choice but many others would not be. It's a complicated issue.

Made simple by IRA members voting as a bloc to ensure it stays that way.

You've still not refuted claims that IRA men, have under IRA orders insinuated themselves in SF branches.

FTA69 · 13-03-2005 2:31pm

And my point is A) what would a 17yo know

More than you because I've been a member of Sinn Féin for the past 3 years and throughout all the stuff I've been involved in I have not once seen an example where IRA business was raised in a Sinn Féin capacity.

and if this is being done clandestine its hardly going to be discussed in front of you.

No it's not going to be discussed in front of me because I am not an IRA member, it isn't discussed in front of non-IRA personnel at all, that's my point.

And I'm saying that in order to maintain its support in staunchly catholic areas that for one example the IRA rigged the vote to ensure SF remained neutral.

Staunchly Catholic areas? Ballymurphy and South Armagh are no more Catholic than Dublin or Cork, all that nonsense is irrelevant nowadays.

Made simple by IRA members voting as a bloc to ensure it stays that way.

And I'm saying IRA members so not vote en bloc at Sinn Féin Ard Fheiseanna, when they are at Sinn Féin gatherings they are there in their capacity as Sinn Féin members.

You've still not refuted claims that IRA men, have under IRA orders insinuated themselves in SF branches.

Yes I have, I have said it was complete rubbish.

mycroft · 13-03-2005 2:39pm

FTA69 wrote:

More than you because I've been a member of Sinn Féin for the past 3 years and throughout all the stuff I've been involved in I have not once seen an example where IRA business was raised in a Sinn Féin capacity.

FFS I'm talking about IRA members coming to a conclusion outside of the SF decision making apperatuis and then going and raising it inside the SF organisation structure.

And y'know I'd take your word for the above, but I'm still waiting on proof to support your claim that the branch are intimidating SF members in Free West Waterford.

No it's not going to be discussed in front of me because I am not an IRA member, it isn't discussed in front of non-IRA personnel at all, that's my point.

I'm not talking about IRA business inside the SF decision making process, I'm talking about IRA setting SF policy outside this structure. I mean c'mon are you just willingfully misunderstanding what I say

Staunchly Catholic areas? Ballymurphy and South Armagh are no more Catholic than Dublin or Cork, all that nonsense is irrelevant nowadays.

Thats a nice broad sweeping dismisal. I'm convinced.

And I'm saying IRA members so not vote en bloc at Sinn Féin Ard Fheiseanna, when they are at Sinn Féin gatherings they are there in their capacity as Sinn Féin members.

And I'm saying how do you know? Do you know who are and aren't IRA members?

Villain · 13-03-2005 3:13pm

Cork wrote:

Has SF ever been critical of the IRA?

Senior SF people are in leadership positions of the IRA.

The armalite in one hand and a armalite in the other?

This is SF/IRA.

Another great post by Cork, you always seem to come into threads relating to Sinn Fein and just make the same points.

Now can you please provide me a link that shows:

Senior SF people are in leadership positions of the IRA.

Because I find it hard to believe that you can prove this when the Taoiseach said he couldn't.

BTW Cork there's a thread about the bye-elections where FF's bad result is being discussed, just incase you actually wanted to post in a thread not directly related to Sinn Fein.

FTA69 · 13-03-2005 3:16pm

FFS I'm talking about IRA members coming to a conclusion outside of the SF decision making apperatuis and then going and raising it inside the SF organisation structure.

And I'm saying that sort of thing just doesn't happen. Even if it did what would be the purpose? The beliefs of the IRA and Sinn Féin are the same so there are no major contensious issues worth interfering in. This notion of IRA members opposing abortion at Ard Fheiseanna as it would cost them support is equally ridiculous. People don't support the Republican Movement because of some misguided supposition that they are bound by Catholic principles. Republican areas are no more "staunchly catholic" than Dublin or Meath or anywhere else.

And I'm saying how do you know? Do you know who are and aren't IRA members?

As I outlined many times above mycroft, the IRA and Sinn Féin are different organisations whose business is kept strictly apart. Therefore, people at a Sinn Féin gathering are there as Sinn Féin members and vice versa, that is the way the Movement always operated and that is the way it operates today.

13-03-2005 3:26pm

FTA69 wrote:

that is the way the Movement always operated and that is the way it operates today.

No, its not the way it always operated,SF Árd'fheiseanna in the 1980's used have closed sessions to discusss how the IRA campaign was going-ask any journalist that was around then.
I linked to a few articles on in in a thread a while back.
Incidently, you have stated that you are not an IRA member, so how do you know that the IRA dont send their members who are also SF members along to SF party meetings to vote on policy as mycroft suggested and Henry McDonald of the Guardian states in his article?

cdebru · 13-03-2005 3:39pm

mycroft wrote:

We can assume, as cdebru does, that most if not all IRA men are active in SF, as members and play a part in the organisation. We can also assume because their loyalists lie primarly with the council, they will, most likely vote and support the issues that the council raises, or feel important.

?

I never said that what i did say was that if an IRA member was inclined to join a political party in all likelyhood they would join sinn fein
I also said if an IRA member was inclined to help out a political party at election time then presumably Sinn Fein wi#ould be the party he would canvass for put up posters etc

that is not the same as saying most if not all IRA members are sinn fein members
in fact i think it is well known that during the armed struggle IRA members were largely discouraged from joining sinn fein as membership of sinn fein would only draw attention to a person

i have no idea how many members of the IRA are in sinn fein i presume there are some my presumption is merely that if they are going to be politically active it would be shocking if they were a member of any other party

please dont tell people what i think without having the courtesy to ask me first

FTA69 · 13-03-2005 3:40pm

No, its not the way it always operated,SF Árd'fheiseanna in the 1980's used have closed sessions to discusss how the IRA campaign was going-ask any journalist that was around then.

Sinn Féin had a position of support for the armed struggle back then so obviously discussions were held on the basis of what that position entailed. It is still Sinn Féin business.

Incidently, you have stated that you are not an IRA member, so how do you know that the IRA dont send their members who are also SF members along to SF party meetings to vote on policy as mycroft suggested and Henry McDonald of the Guardian states in his article?

Because the idea does not make sense, there are no contentious issues between the two organisations so the IRA have no reason to interfer in such a manner, least of all over something like abortion.

cdebru · 13-03-2005 3:43pm

Earthman wrote:

No, its not the way it always operated,SF Árd'fheiseanna in the 1980's used have closed sessions to discusss how the IRA campaign was going-ask any journalist that was around then.
I linked to a few articles on in in a thread a while back.
Incidently, you have stated that you are not an IRA member, so how do you know that the IRA dont send their members who are also SF members along to SF party meetings to vote on policy as mycroft suggested and Henry McDonald of the Guardian states in his article?

actually they did not discuss the armed struggle and how it was going
there was an address from the IRA no discussion took place

13-03-2005 3:49pm

FTA69 wrote:

Because the idea does not make sense, there are no contentious issues between the two organisations so the IRA have no reason to interfer in such a manner, least of all over something like abortion.

So Henry MCdonalds "sources" are wrong and he is a bad journalist for running with them and the Guardian is not a reliable newspaper-is that it?
I see-forgive me if thats what you are implying if I take that with a pinch of salt.

Incidently, if it is the case, they are entitled to go to the meetings as members of SF and vote whatever way they want as a cohort within it.I dont see an issue with it actually.It's no different to Sen Des Hanafins long standing war on abortion with his cohorts in FF within FF for years up untill recently.

I would find it disturbing though, if it was a controling influence and thats what McDonald is alledging.

Cork · 13-03-2005 3:56pm

irish1 wrote:

BTW Cork there's a thread about the bye-elections where FF's bad result is being discussed, just incase you actually wanted to post in a thread not directly related to Sinn Fein.

Thats on another thread.

This thread is about How much infulence do the IRA council have over Sinn Fein? Reply to Thread

I believe SF has considerable influence on the IRA.

Used SF not have closed sessions at party conferences?

Were not the media etc not exluded?

Irish1 - Are the minutes from these available on the SF website??

FTA69 · 13-03-2005 4:05pm

Earthman wrote:

So Henry MCdonalds "sources" are wrong and he is a bad journalist for running with them and the Guardian is not a reliable newspaper-is that it?

The media is not an accurate source of information on the Republican Movement it never has been, one only has to look at the volume of lies published over the years in order to see that.

Villain · 13-03-2005 4:07pm

irish1 wrote:

Now can you please provide me a link that shows:

Senior SF people are in leadership positions of the IRA.

Still waiting Cork???

Cork · 13-03-2005 4:26pm

irish1 wrote:

Still waiting Cork???

What links do you want?

Links from newspapers, speechs by Michael McDowell or Mary Harney etc?

Plenty on www.google.ie

Used SF not have closed sessions at party conferences?

Do minutes exist for these meetings?

SF never wanted to get into the politics of condemnation with regards to the IRA. But hey they have no such problems getting into the politics of condemnation with regards Michael McDowell.

Villain · 13-03-2005 4:29pm

Cork wrote:

What links do you want?

Links from newspapers, speechs by Michael McDowell or Mary Harney etc?

Plenty on www.google.ie

Do minutes exist for these meetings?

SF never wanted to get into the politics of condemnation with regards to the IRA. But hey they have no such problems getting into the politics of condemnation with regards Michael McDowell.

I want a link to prove what you stated, I have seen no such links in google, are you trying to tell me you know more than Bertie Ahern.

Provide a link or withdraw the statement.

13-03-2005 4:37pm

Cork,could you state for the record that you are giving an opinion there and not a fact.
It is a fact that according to opinion polls, most people think the IRA and Sinn Féin are inextricably linked if not one and the same.

Cork · 13-03-2005 4:45pm

The Irish justice minister Michael McDowell recently named Gerry Adams, Martin McGuinness and an Irish member of parliament, Martin Ferris, as members of the IRA Army Council.

This arrogant language is the result of a mindset that believes that the IRA is the legitimate government of Ireland. The delusion of legitimacy has been reinforced by the backing Sinn Fein has received from Catholic voters.

Sinn Fein and the IRA alike believe that there is only one set of rules - the ones they make themselves. The party leaders have bent to the laws of the land, but only as far as it suits them. At the Sinn Fein conference last weekend, Adams said he "refused to criminalise those who break the law in pursuit of legitimate political objectives."
.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2005/03/10/nira110.xml&sSheet=/news/2005/03/10/ixnewstop.html

Irish1 - It is only my opinion.

An opinion that is also shared by many of my countrymen.

Villain · 13-03-2005 4:45pm

Thinking something and knowing something is very very different.

Villain · 13-03-2005 4:54pm

Glad to see you have accepted that it is only your opinion, no Evidence seems to excist to support your opinion do.

After Mr McDowell comments Mr Ahern said ""I do not know the membership of the Army Council."

A Dub in Glasgo · 13-03-2005 4:59pm

I attended 2 SF Ard Fheisenna in the late 1980s which included the closed sessions. The IRA campaign was not discussed. An IRA statement to the Ard Fheis was read out.

13-03-2005 5:04pm

irish1 wrote:

Glad to see you have accepted that it is only your opinion, no Evidence seems to excist to support your opinion do.

After Mr McDowell comments Mr Ahern said ""I do not know the membership of the Army Council."

Thats Bertiespeak.
You should ask him directly whether he thinks those that McDowell thinks are on that council are actually on it?

Bet you'd get a similarally worded doublespeak answer.Ahern is not unique with his double speak though whereas other senior members of his part leave no doubt whatsoever in what they say, has he ever censored them, told them they are wrong?

Now as you seem to be relying on what Bertie Ahern says to back up your point...
Can youwhat did he mean when he said that senior people in the Republican leadership were aware of the plans to rob the northern bank whilst taking to him on a new settlement in the North?
Gerry Adams clearly thought he meant him amongst others.

13-03-2005 5:06pm

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

I attended 2 SF Ard Fheisenna in the late 1980s which included the closed sessions. The IRA campaign was not discussed. An IRA statement to the Ard Fheis was read out.

I dont think it would be fair to ask you any particulars on that,but they didnt discuss it at all?The closed sessions must have only went on for 10 minutes?
I only brought it up by the way to clarify the situation for fta69.

Cork · 13-03-2005 5:07pm

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

I attended 2 SF Ard Fheisenna in the late 1980s which included the closed sessions. The IRA campaign was not discussed. An IRA statement to the Ard Fheis was read out.

Would the statement be detailed?

What type of stuff (generally) would it contain?

Would there be any type of question and answer session?

A Dub in Glasgo · 13-03-2005 5:19pm

Cork wrote:

Would the statement be detailed?

What type of stuff (generally) would it contain?

Would there be any type of question and answer session?

It contained the type of message found in an IRA statement released publically, say at the Easter commemerations. The statement would review the year gone and would finish with a list of fallen IRA volunteers since the laast AF. It was usually delieverd by a recently released republican prisoner (as far as I can remember) and it would have been well recieved from those present. It provided a call to republicans to redouble their events for the following year. I think it also gave the opportunity for other liberation movements to offer their support.

There were no Q&A sessions about the statement. Why it was held behind closed doors? I don't know as there was nothing 'juicy' about it. I used to have a sly laugh when I seen the reporters 'speculating with authority' on what was discussed.

cdebru · 13-03-2005 5:37pm

Cork wrote:

Irish1 - It is only my opinion.

An opinion that is also shared by many of my countrymen.

what do the women think

How much infulence do the IRA council have over Sinn Fein?

Comments