Driving ability

englander

I have been here for a few years and I am from England (I am one of those nasty BRITS ) but after 6 years in Ireland I am still shocked and constantly frustrated by the driving abilty over here....in a word it is SH!TE...sorry like, but it really is. It makes me sooooooo MAD.

In England I used to think I saw some really dire drivers but honestly Ireland is in a category of its own. Apparently my own father in law didn't even need to do a test to get a licence !!!!! And he really is a poor and embarrassing driver...

To be fair I reckon in Ireland it is a combination of roads and driving ability.
There is a mindset here that says that SPEEDING/FAST=BAD therefore the slower you go the safer you are.

Every message you hear to prevent road deaths is usually to do with speeding.

Why not ask people to pull over if they see more than 5 vehicles behind them ?

So many times I have been following 6-7 slow moving vehicles on single carriageway and I know an overtaking point is coming up, thinking that *OBVIOUSLY* cars (behind slow moving vehicles) in front will get passed slow moving micra/tractor/combinefrigginharvester but they dont, nothing overtakes anything !

The next overtaking point, I (a *Normal Driver*), get my vehicle moving and overtake as many vehicles as I can, that I deem safely. I am sure the rest of the convoy think 'look at that nutter he womt get there any quicker etc etc etc.....' (like my father in-law does).

We really need an advertising campaign to say that driving slowly can ALSO cause accidents. ie concentrate on speed differential not just speeding.

I think the emphasis in regards to driving saftely should be on considerate and good driving NOT just speeding.

What think you ?

L5

englander wrote:

I am from England

I stopped reading after that tbh

MagicBusDriver

It seems your whole post was dedicated to attacking Irish drivers for driving too slowly, which you equated with a lack of driving ability. Maybe you were angry at the time of posting, but that just seemed a little silly.

While I agree that Irish drivers aren't the best, I think the reason you picked out to argue this point wasn't well thought out.

BrianD3

englander wrote:

I am sure the rest of the convoy think 'look at that nutter he womt get there any quicker etc etc etc.....' (like my father in-law does).

They're also thinking "look at that flash bollox in his <insert car make> who the hell does he think he is"

Also did you ever notice how some drivers will deliberately speed up when being overtaken to make life as difficult as possible for the overtaking vehicle.

BrianD3

BrianD3

MagicBusDriver wrote:

It seems your whole post was dedicated to attacking Irish drivers for driving too slowly, which you equated with a lack of driving ability. Maybe you were angry at the time of posting, but that just seemed a little silly.

While I agree that Irish drivers aren't the best, I think the reason you picked out to argue this point wasn't well thought out.

I don't agree, in fact I think his entire post was spot on. There is too much emphasis on breaking the speed limit as the cause of road accidents in this country. Crap drivers pick up on this and think "I'm alright jack" once they stay below the speed limit.

Then you have Garda resources being used to enforce 60 km/h speed limits on dual carriageways but the Gardai are nowhere to be seen when young males are crashing on country roads on weekend nights due to dangerous driving/inappropriate speed (i.e not necessarily breaking the posted speed limit)

BrianD3

seamus

BrianD3 wrote:

I don't agree, in fact I think his entire post was spot on. There is too much emphasis on breaking the speed limit as the cause of road accidents in this country. Crap drivers pick up on this and think "I'm alright jack" once they stay below the speed limit.

Then you have Garda resources being used to enforce 60 km/h speed limits on dual carriageways but the Gardai are nowhere to be seen when young males are crashing on country roads on weekend nights due to dangerous driving/inappropriate speed (i.e not necessarily breaking the posted speed limit)

BrianD3

Agreed. Did a report last week not show that dual carriageways and motorways were the safest roads in the country? Although this report was mainly used as justification for upgrades, it also showed perfectly clearly that good roads are over-monitored by the Gardai, in terms of their accidents per billion km, and also that speed != danger.

I think the overtaking conundrum is a big rich tapestry of problems. People come upon a slow-moving vehicle in the road. People will overtake it depending on a few factors, the big two being - 1. The power of their vehicle and 2. Their confidence with overtaking.
Some people just don't like overtaking. It's a confidence thing, and shows up one of the flaws in our driver education.
No confidence with the power of the vehicle is mostly to do with the condition of the road. If the road is narrow and windy. You want to get out and back in again, as quick as possible. If you're driving a 1 litre Punto, overtaking a 45mph truck on the N81, you could be a good 10 seconds, completely on the wrong side of the road, and with nowhere to go if something goes wrong, and no space for oncoming traffic to avoid hitting you. It's unnerving. If you're in a 1.6 Passat, you'll complete the same manouver in 4/5 seconds, and confidently carry on your way.

Eventually, a few cars with no confidence build up behind it, and it becomes hell.

cyclopath2001

seamus wrote:

Some people just don't like overtaking. It's a confidence thing, and shows up one of the flaws in our driver education.

The whole 'slow drivers are dangerous' argument is a grotesque exercise in blame-shifting.

I think it's wrong to say that the reason people lack confidence is simply due to a flaw in driver education. It could also be that these people are sensible enough to drive within their own ability.

'Slow' drivers could be elderly, physically impaired or they may know the conditions better than you.

The point about pulling over appears reasonable, but experience in Ireland would be that once the driver would have pulled over, nobody would let him/her out again.

What's the hurry? Exercise discipline, learn to relax on the road and let's not bully others so much.

Indeed, 'peer-pressure' and bullying may the the cause of fatal overtaking manouveres.

The Muppet

Whatever the reason one thing for sure is that the standard of Driving here is very poor even on on dual carriagways with undertaking and lane hopping in evidence more and more. It's very seldom you can make a journey without having to take some sort of evasive action.

BrianD3

cyclopath2001 wrote:

The whole 'slow drivers are dangerous' argument is a grotesque exercise in blame-shifting.

I think it's wrong to say that the reason people lack confidence is simply due to a flaw in driver education. It could also be that these people are sensible enough to drive within their own ability.

'Slow' drivers could be elderly, physically impaired or they may know the conditions better than you.

No. If someone is incapable of driving at a reasonable speed because of being impaired or elderly then they shouldn't be on the road. For instance, 40 mph on a straight, wide, N road with a 60 mph limit in light traffic and in perfect weather conditions is not a "reasonable speed". If driving slowly is not a problem then why is not making progress one of the major reasons why people fail their driving test. Also, you can be prosecuted for driving too slowly on a motorway and in the UK at least you can be prosecuted for causing an obstruction on single carriageway roads.

BrianD3

murphaph

Driving too fast for the conitions can cause accidents. Driving to slow for the conditions can cause accidents. They're not mutually exclusive.

Padraig Mor

cyclopath2001 wrote:

. It could also be that these people are sensible enough to drive within their own ability.

'Slow' drivers could be elderly, physically impaired or they may know the conditions better than you.

.

What is the difference in having your driving ability impaired (i.e. not able to drive at a reasonable speed etc.) by old age or by alcohol? I can't see any to be honest, aside from one being legal and one not. If someone's driving ability is not 'up to scratch', they should get driving lessons, not endanger the rest of us.

Ray777

I think it's fair to say that compared to other countries, driving standards in Ireland are woeful. There seems to be a level of contempt for the law, with an attitude of 'ah, sure I know a guard who'll quash me ticket'. We seem to regard holding a driving license as an automatic right, rather than a privilege. It's symptomatic of our general half-arsed attitude towards rules of any description.

There seems to be a minority of good, safe drivers in this country - the rest are either too fast/aggressive or too slow.

It could also be that these people are sensible enough to drive within their own ability.

If someone's ability prevents them from feeling safe at a speed over 50km/h on a road where the limit is 100km/h, then questions should really be asked, as to whether or not they should be allowed to drive on such roads. I've been in the unfortunate situation of being stuck behind such drivers (normally in VW Ventos for some reason - I dunno ) on several occasions and in locations where overtaking is unsafe. Personally, I'm sensible enough not to attempt a silly overtaking manoevre, but what the hell can I do? Do I continue to drive at a ridiculous speed, patiently? Do I start driving 'up their arse' in the hope of getting them to see sense and move over? Do I flash the lights a couple of times? Within the law, the only thing I can do is wait until it's safe to pass, which might not be for another ten miles.

Another thing I've noticed a lot on our roads is 'tired drivers'. At around 7pm, you tend to see a lot of reps driving home in their Mondeos/Vectras/Passats, etc - many having been on the roads since 7am. By this time, they're struggling to stay awake - slowing down, speeding up, drifting from left to right, swerving occasionally. There is nothing more dangerous than getting stuck behind somebody like that - overtaking is out of the question, because they're oblivious to my existence and would probably either speed up, or drift alongside me... Serious questions have to be asked about driving standards in this country.

murphaph

^ What Ray said ^

Alun

I agree. To be fair, you see bad driving in every country, but what you see a lot of in Ireland is incompetent driving.

For instance, take signalling on roundabouts. Iin the UK, for example, you'll see people forget to signal every now and then. That's human nature. We all forget things from time to time, or we're temporarily distracted. It's not right, but it happens. In Ireland, though, in addition to people either forgetting, or just not indicating at all, because they don't see the point, you'll see people indicating left to go straight on, indicating right to go straight on etc. Ask some people about the rules in this regard, and they genuinely don't know !!! That's the difference.

Like someone said in a previous post on this thread, barely a day goes by in this country when you don't have to take some sort of evasive action to avoid another driver's incompetent driving.

impr0v

This is why we need compulsory driver retesting after a set period of time which decreases after a certain age threshold. However, since our driver testing system can't cope with new applicants, never mind retesting the entire driver population, the chances of this happening are somewhere between laughable and none.

There's an article in today's Indo about the road death toll costing the county €1.1bn per year, and while implementing driver retesting certainly wouldn't eradicate road deaths, you'd hire a lot of testers for a fraction of that amount.

cyclopath2001

Padraig Mor wrote:

What is the difference in having your driving ability impaired (i.e. not able to drive at a reasonable speed etc.) by old age or by alcohol? I can't see any to be honest, aside from one being legal and one not. If someone's driving ability is not 'up to scratch', they should get driving lessons, not endanger the rest of us.

The difference is that the elderly or physically impaired are aware of their limitations and adapt their driving style accordingly. Drunks, on the other hand, are not aware of their incapacity, that's what makes them dangerous & why being a drunk-driver is illegal & being elderly or disabled is not.

BrianD3 wrote:

No. If someone is incapable of driving at a reasonable speed because of being impaired or elderly then they shouldn't be on the road. For instance, 40 mph on a straight, wide, N road with a 60 mph limit in light traffic and in perfect weather conditions is not a "reasonable speed".

You didn't mention other factors is the surface is wet or dry, cyclists, parked vehicles, children on the road, or possible merging traffic? In Ireland, it is seldom safe to travel at the maximum legal speed. Some drivers are are more considerate of conditions than others.

But, really the issue is who decides what is 'reasonable' & do we then decide to exclude people from the roads (& social function) because they're too slow?

Sounds facist to me.

Swarfboy

RAY seemed to be closest to the mark here in my view....
It has to be remembered like most things in life there is a huge difference between what City people think/drive like and what country folk do..
Have to say that the point of slow drivers makes me laugh.... I drive on a 24mile stretch which was downgraded to 80kmph and I have yet to see one person drive under 95kmph... apart from myself who builds up a huge backlog of cars every night right up my arse...
I don't really give a damn if they think I am slow or whatever as I am the only one trying to drive within the speed limit...and just because somebody starts tailgating me and driving in a general dangerous manner doesnt mean I am going to get out of the way....
Having said that I did cycle from London to Westport one year and I cycled through England Wales (no hard shoulders) without a problem but when I hit the other side of Wexford I shat myself all the way... The sight of so many crosses on the sides of the road is harrowing...

Crossley

impr0v wrote:

This is why we need compulsory driver retesting after a set period of time which decreases after a certain age threshold. However, since our driver testing system can't cope with new applicants, never mind retesting the entire driver population, the chances of this happening are somewhere between laughable and none.

Never mind re-testing. What we need to get right first is the initial test. Currently this is a joke. And the fact that so many people manage to fail such a feeble and utterly basic test speaks volumes.

DubTony

Crossley wrote:

...the fact that so many people manage to fail such a feeble and utterly basic test speaks volumes.

And then they're allowed to go back to their car and drive home ... alone :eek:

Tony

mike65

Ray777 wrote:

Another thing I've noticed a lot on our roads is 'tired drivers'. At around 7pm, you tend to see a lot of reps driving home in their Mondeos/Vectras/Passats, etc - many having been on the roads since 7am. By this time, they're struggling to stay awake - slowing down, speeding up, drifting from left to right, swerving occasionally. There is nothing more dangerous than getting stuck behind somebody like that - overtaking is out of the question, because they're oblivious to my existence and would probably either speed up, or drift alongside me... Serious questions have to be asked about driving standards in this country.

5th Gear or Driven did a comparitive test on a track at about 2 am between a driver who was tired and one who was not tired but had drank a few units of booze. As the test wore on the tired driver was clearly the most dangerous and he (Tiff Needel an experienced chap) starting drifting out of the centre lane and was'nt able to perceive the danger. Just in case anyone thinks I'm suggesting tipsy is safe I'm not, they're both a hazard.

Mike.

MrPudding

mike65 wrote:

5th Gear or Driven did a comparitive test on a track at about 2 am between a driver who was tired and one who was not tired but had drank a few units of booze. As the test wore on the tired driver was clearly the most dangerous and he (Tiff Needel an experienced chap) starting drifting out of the centre lane and was'nt able to perceive the danger. Just in case anyone thinks I'm suggesting tipsy is safe I'm not, they're both a hazard.

Mike.

That was actually a very interesting test. They themselves were surpised that the drunk driver was "safer" than the tired driver. As Mike has said both were dangerous, but the tired driver was more dangerous.

MrP

John R

mike65 wrote:

5th Gear or Driven did a comparitive test on a track at about 2 am between a driver who was tired and one who was not tired but had drank a few units of booze. As the test wore on the tired driver was clearly the most dangerous and he (Tiff Needel an experienced chap) starting drifting out of the centre lane and was'nt able to perceive the danger. Just in case anyone thinks I'm suggesting tipsy is safe I'm not, they're both a hazard.

It may have been a different programme but I recall a similar comparison that came to the same conclusion. However it was dependent on circumstances, in straight motorway driving it was the case that a tired driver was much more erattic and dangerous but on a street test track the opposite was the case, the drunk driver was still over confident and out of control where the tired driver was kept alert with the constant need to adjust his driving and showed little difference to an alert driver.

My own experience of driving when tired backs that up also. As long as you have to concentrate on the driving it is not a big problem but as soon as you start cruising the tiredness takes hold and it is almost impossible to stay alert.

Victor

John R wrote:

My own experience of driving when tired backs that up also. As long as you have to concentrate on the driving it is not a big problem but as soon as you start cruising the tiredness takes hold and it is almost impossible to stay alert.

Eat / drink something light. Open window, put on radio (not hate radio, not soothing tunes), remove shoes and socks, crank up cold air conditioning and divert to feet.

yop

Have to agree with Englander, I have drove in most countries In the UK and the standard of driving in Ireland is cronic.
I drive on country roads to work everyday and EVERY single day I am stuck behind at least 2 or 3 drivers who are doing 40mph (in a 62mph zone), tractors that do not pull in and hold up 10-15 cars oblivious to what they are doing, people who blatantly drive through red lights, if they do pass out then they do it in 4th or 5th which takes them ages to get past.
Also there is little or no courteousy on Irish roads, passing out lanes are ignored, fast lanes are sat on as if they were a 40mph single lane road, people don't indicate on the roundabouts and you have to nearly guess which way the drivers are going, then of course the idea of getting into the right lanes on the roundabout is an after thought in too many peoples heads!

rant over!

Alun

Absolutely ... I've just come back from a long weekend round trip from Dublin to Fort William (that's where Ben Nevis is!) via Holyhead ... over 800 miles of driving, and it was a sheer pleasure with not one heart stopping moment in the whole trip. Try doing that kind of distance in Ireland and see how many examples of outright stupidity, recklessness and incompetence you'll come across.

Victor

Alun wrote:

Absolutely ... I've just come back from a long weekend round trip from Dublin to Fort William (that's where Ben Nevis is!) via Holyhead ... over 800 miles of driving,

Nih! Would it not have been easier going via Larne? Hmmm then again Larne might not be the emost sociable place on Paddy's weekend.

Via Larne
Time: 08h39 including 01h25 on motorways
Distance: 489 km including 132 km on motorways

Via Holyhead & Preston
Time: 06h10 including 01h33 on motorways
Distance: 224 km including 147 km on motorways

Time: 03h13 including 02h46 on motorways
Distance: 294 km including 280 km on motorways

Total 9h23
518km

Alun

Wanted to call in on brother-in-law in Lytham St Annes (near Blackpool) on the way! Otherwise, yes, you're right. I don't know where you got your figures from, but the AA planner gives 426 miles or 686 km which is roughly what I observed.

BTW, Ben Nevis was glorious on Saturday, and it didn't take me anywhere near 9h 23m either

mike65

yop wrote:

tractors that do not pull in and hold up 10-15 cars oblivious to what they are doing

Oh they know exactly what they are doing...!

Mike.

Victor

Alun wrote:

426 miles or 686 km

I used www.viamichelin.com, which excludes ferry distances. Will look into that.

Edit: plotting it fully seems to come out as

Time: 11h51*including 04h57*on motorways
Distance: 717 km*including 483 km*on motorways

Alun

Victor wrote:

I used www.viamichelin.com, which excludes ferry distances. Will look into that.

I just entered Holyhead to Fort William, I omitted the short stretch from Bray to Dun Laoghaire. Doing that in viamichelin gives 675km, which is odd since the route looks identical (there isn't really any viable alternative, actually).

LFCFan

Cyclopath......am I right in assuming you're a cyclist? If so, do you drive? If not, then how can you comment on driving ability etc etc? If you do drive, do you not think it's annoying to be stuck behind someone doing 20MPH below the limit when the road is good enough for 60MPH (or more if you are of the argument that it's inappropriate speed that kills and not over the limit speed).

masterK

I heard something on the news this morning released from the Garda Press office stating that the figures do that back up the perception that speeding is reasponsible for most deaths.

The fact that the motorways in Ireland have the lowest rates of fatalities totally backs this point up, the areas you can drive the fastest have the fewest accidents.

This firmly puts the blame on the number of deaths on the poor roads.
Another question to ask yourself is of all the people that die on the roads how many of those occur in Dublin? Since 1/3 approx of the population lives in Dublin you expect 1/3 of the deaths to be in Dublin, without having exact figures I would put this at least at 1/10th of the actual deaths.

cyclopath2001

LFCFan wrote:

Cyclopath......am I right in assuming you're a cyclist? If so, do you drive? If not, then how can you comment on driving ability etc etc? If you do drive, do you not think it's annoying to be stuck behind someone doing 20MPH below the limit when the road is good enough for 60MPH (or more if you are of the argument that it's inappropriate speed that kills and not over the limit speed).

Yes, I do drive, but not nearly as much as I cycle. Indeed, I passed my test on the first attempt, probably helped by my cycling experience.

Even if I did not drive, I've seen enough selfish & inconsiderate behaviour on the roads to know what is right and what is wrong.

Some people may find it annoying to be stuck in slow traffic, but a good driver learns not to allow anger to affect his/her driving ability. To argue that slow drivers are dangerous because they provoke others into driving dangerously is perverse.

You are mis-representing me as approving of driving in excess of the speed limit. I have never said any such thing. Let me put you straight on this:

I do not accept that it is allowable or safe to exceed the speed limit.

It is often necessary to drive at a slower speed than the posted limit depending on the prevailing circumstances. Unfortunately, many drivers do not consider all of the circumstances nor the vulnerabilities of others when deciding what is an appropriate speed.

Instead, many drivers choose a speed that they do not find 'annoying' & as we know, this is usually an illegal speed.

It is typical of some drivers limited comprehension of safety issues that they supported the attempts by the AA to increase speed limits at locations which ignored the safety concerns of cyclists and pedestrians.

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