A little controversy

lordsippa

Ok I've avoided reading the crap that's graced this forum for long enough. Time to actually help the lil fledgling's on their journey to enlightenment or "realising how stupid the newbs are and running while you can".

This forum was made for TALENTED youth, not people who rate their teachers or arse on about how their computer is whatever. So just shut it and think. OK?! Why can't you ask decent questions? Debate actual topics? Push at the boundaries without simply trolling like a five year old? Has the Talented become *Special* over the last few years or what?!

So here's a lil bit of controversy. I don't care if it's been debated before but I think it's an important issue and one that really needs to be thought about before you answer with whatever programmed infuriated or "hey let's be cool and evil" response pops into your heads. That's right... THINK!

The issue: Islam. There's been a lot of debate on the topic of Islam over the last few years. The question of Islamaphobia has been raised. There's the debate over the whole Israel thing. And what about Holland eh? So here's my question for you... Is there a limit to free practice of religion? What if the religion DIRECTLY acts against the national and majority principles. For example fundamentalist Islamic movements in Holland, home of liberalism. Can we judge a whole religion? Is it right to treat fundamentalist Islamic's differently, even though there might be a threat to our safety, or to the principles of freedom that underline our ideologies?

Any attacks against me personally for being obnoxious can be shoved up your arses. And don't try to insult me. I'm bigger than you.

<troll>
<:ninja:>

Plasticman

Indeed. Heed the man's words, and ponder the topic well, for he is blonde and looks like a viking. He also eats children. Ever see/read "The BFG"? HE WAS IN IT!

lordsippa

That's a lie. I just auditioned.

I was too scary.

<troll>

Plunky

Sven it was decided LONG ago that this was a forum form CTYIzens to talk to eachother and discuss what they wanted whether intellectual or not... Don't consider this a personal attack, cuz I wub you muchly, just letting ya know that CTYI has morphed since we left in ways beyond imaginings.. But in good ways!
*wanders off to ponder what the outcome of the islam debate will be, but is too "meh" to make any statements of opinion At The Moment"

Undergod

You seemed like a cuddly kind of big scary guy on the two occasions I met you. But be nice to him everyone else, he is still bigger than you.

To the topic on hand... I think it's ridiculous to judge an entire religion. Islam is an utterly misunderstood faith. Some of the complete and utter BULL**** I've had to put up with in class discussions. Gotta go, edit this post later

GlitterB

here lordspippa why dont ya head for the hills and set up your own little 'lets talk about meaningful things' forum cuz like the others said this forum was set up for us to talk to each other about what we want so you keep ur lecture to urself

LiamD

GlitterB wrote:

here lordspippa why dont ya head for the hills and set up your own little 'lets talk about meaningful things' forum cuz like the others said this forum was set up for us to talk to each other about what we want so you keep ur lecture to urself

Here here, well said.

StupidLikeAFox

Stick it to the man, fight the power etc etc.

On-topic:
Two sheep are in a field, a baby black sheep and a grown up white sheep. The white sheep is giving out to the young black sheep all day long and basically preaching to him about everything and anything. Eventually, having not let the young sheep talk all day, the white sheep says he doesnt like the young sheep. The black sheep turns around and says in his best ali g accent.....
......''iz it coz i Is-lamb?''

Raphael

Inclined to tell GlitterB to fuck off and learn how to spell before making his/her stupid point but meh

Re topic:

I do believe it is ok to judge certain religions as a whole, but only with the correct information about those religions, and never those that follow the religion. A few cases in point:

1. Judging the religion by the person. As Sven said, people nowadays fear and discriminate against Islam. This is based not upon what Islam is, but what Islamic people have done. Terrorist actions which have taken place in the name of Islam have dragged the religions name into the mud, and a lot of people now associate Islam with terrorism.

2. Judging the person by their religion. Lets take our old friend Catholicism here. Now, in my opinion, Catholocism has a number of fundemental flaws. These are flaws in scripture, in how it is run, and in what happens during the Eucharist. Yet as a result of this, some people who dislike the religion will judge devout followers of it differently. I count among my good friends 2 priests. They are wonderful guys, great fun, but if someone were merely introduced to them as a priest, that person will make instant assumptions which are highly unfair

3. Judging the Religion by the religion or the person by the person. This is what I regard as the right way, seperating the religious entity from the person. Just because psychopaths have done things in the name of a religion should not degrade that religion, and just because someones faith is in a religion you disagree with, you should not judge them prematurely

I hope this made some sense, and would like to add that the contents of this post are my opinion and not meant to offend

lemon_sherbert

Personally, I don't like organised religion, so anything I say after this is going to be biased. (and possibly misinformed) And, Islam, considering how young the religion is in comparison to say.. hinduism, isn't all that bad. A problem is with the connotations of the head scarves, jilbab etc. - that it restricts women's freedom, and to some extents that is true, and that is promotes sectarianist attitudes within Muslim girls. I switch sides a lot in this debate. It's just so hard to know. I know that the men before women attitude is supposed to be so men can protect women, and wasn't actually said by mohammed, but one of the later religious leader, from other men, but it gets to point where some men can completely take over women's lives and abuse their scripture to twist it to their means. Long story short, i think they should be allowed wear their chosen clothes, but it should be ascertained that it is their choice, and not the pressure of society, or their parents.
Personally I think Holland creating a protection system for their liberal government is a good idea. Within a liberal system, everyone can live in whatever extremes of religion, and there are more freedoms. Even in a country where there is a huge majority of one religion, I never consider a theocracy a good idea. I don't like the place of the catholic church within th irish constitution either.
Reading that over, it doesn't make much sense. If I caused offence, sorry, but it's only some sixteen year old's opinion anyway.

HeyYou

I'm with the "get bent" posse, who is this guy to tell people what they can chat about? And before you say he's bigger than me, he's probably not.

It wasn't me!

I get annoyed when people slate Islam. It's a wonderful religion. My take on all religions is that if you use it as a template for how to live a good life and not take every word as truth then you're probably adhering to the point of the religion anyway but Islam is a lovely way to live. It promotes peace and happiness and brotherhood in its purest form. Islamic fundamentalists have actually gone against that part of the message of their own religion. I can't stand people slating the religion though as I think it's a wonderful guideline for how to live. I can't say I wouldn't like to see some more discussion like this on the board. I tried, and, within reason, succeeded recently when I started one about Body Modification. However, it's always going to have a lot of pointless chatter and spam on it. Such is the nature of human beings.

halenger

HeyYou wrote:

I'm with the "get bent" posse, who is this guy to tell people what they can chat about? And before you say he's bigger than me, he's probably not.

He's a CTYIer who has been around a lot longer than most of the current population. Now make with the good debate and don't complain when someone comes along with something interesting to discuss.

The topic has been set. Debate it or get lost. If you don't want to debate the topic then shut the hell up. No more "who is this guy to tell people"... rubbish.

It's banning season and I'm hankering to give some ban(ner)ings.

GlitterB

Raphael wrote:

Inclined to tell GlitterB to fuck off and learn how to spell before making his/her stupid point but meh

Aonghus you are a sad sad little boy(emphasis on the little).You are also an arrogont quite frankly I dont care about islam because its miles away but you dont see me calling yours or anyone elses points stupid I was merely saying who is this guy to judge whether or not what we talk about is good enough or not.I dont care whats spelt wrong u ****ing jackass

Liquorice

Organised religions are a good idea as far as communal worship is concerned. However, in many religions there are abuses, changes in the founding principles, hierarchies, followers not being allowed to take their won interpretations from holy books. During the Christian reformation followers of Luther and Calvin(I think anyway, are Calvinists/Presbyterians allowed to interpret the bible themselves)broke away and were allowed to read the Bible themselves and make their own decisions about what everything within it meant. They were able to do so because the Bible is not said to be the direct word of God.

However, the Qu'ran is said to be so. I think it's been said here before that Islam is younger than most world religions. This is true, when Christianity was the same age as Islam is now, the Malleus Maleficarum was sending educated and formerly respected women to their deaths. However, this isn't really an excuse for FGM or the stoning of women who have adultered. There's no one moral code that everyone must follow, but the basic rule followed by most people is 'if it hurts someone else, don't do it'. Some think pre-marital sex hurts someone else, others don't, so there are variations, but I think it's more or less accepted that the deprivation of someone's right to life does hurt that person, and many others. But, it is an Islamic belief. I don't think we should fear Islam, in fact, we should embrace it, I've read some of the Qu'ran and it's not a religion for homicidal maniacs as many believe, it, as Dave said, promotes brotherhood.

If we object to certain aspects of Islam, as we may object to certain laws in some countries, the only thing to do is to debate with Islamic people on the world stage. It's fair, everyone expresses their opinions, and even if it takes a long time a solution can be reached that satisfies both the Islamic religion and the UN's basic rights of the individual. But, at the end of the day, it's in rare cases that we have anything to object to in Islam when we think of the religion and the practitioners as a whole, it's just that the flaws are emphasised ten thousand times more than the flaws in other religions, except Catholicism which is torn to pieces almost as much, even if it's not as feared.

Oh, and I agree with Sven, this place isn't for conversation. Use a message client for conversation. Forums exist for discussion, not pointless blather. Believe it or not, there is a limited amount of space here, and I, for one, wouldn't be for deleting old threads from 2-3 years ago because at least those threads were relevent. They weren't 10+ pages of posts completely ignoring the thread's purpose. I pity poor crash and halenger, having to read through all of the posts here. I don't read this forum anymore except when I look at the main page and something out of the ordinary pops up, like lordsippa posting. We're meant to be the most intelligent teenagers in the country, why can't we carry ourselves as though we are?

It wasn't me!

How can you say Islam is miles away when, if you live in Dublin, or anywhere near it, you'll see examples of it every single day?! And Aonghus may be somewhat pedantic, but Sven makes a good point in that there hasn't been any worthwhile discussion around here in a long while. I'm involved in most discussion around here and, no matter what anyone says, it can be a bit inane. They're right. I'd like to talk about this now, as it could make for an interesting debate. As for "judging whether what we talk about is good enough", what the hell have we talked about recently?! Also, Aonghus is not a fool. He'll debate this topic properly, not tell someone, "In a thread that was set up to debate something, I'm going to tell the original poster to **** off and die because I don't like the way they said something or what they said".

Dalamar

Islam as a whole is pretty much ok. It's as always the minorities that cause the problems. Religious fundies of any religion tend to be the causes of problems. As such I have no problems with nation states actively suppressing "dangerous sects"* of any religion. If on the other hand all they do is talk and bitch about the subject of their hatreds, I really couldn't care less.

*I'm defining "dangerous sects" as minority groups that actively seek the harm of either a state or another ethnic group.

doonothing

well, religion is like communism in that it looks good on paper, but people are, by nature, way too corruptable for anything to work for any worthy period of time. no matter what is preached, no matter the good intentions or how right the message is, different people will take their own meaning and misinterpret and bla bla and other people will agree and other people will sooner follow a radical ideal chap then a nice little religious movement. it just seems to me that religions are constantly going to implode on themselves, so what's the point? well, stuff imploding on themselves could also apply for anything humans do, but still...

aaaanyways, my point is, humans fcuk things up, and from the stuff ive learned from what aine's posted, islam seems to have been taken for just a more agressive version of christianity and mix in the more agressive misinterpreter types of people, and you've pretty much got an accident waiting to happen...even though islam, literally translated means peace, no? it really really sucks, but what canst you do?

Raphael

GlitterB wrote:

Aonghus you are a sad sad little boy(emphasis on the little).You are also an arrogont quite frankly I dont care about islam because its miles away but you dont see me calling yours or anyone elses points stupid I was merely saying who is this guy to judge whether or not what we talk about is good enough or not.I dont care whats spelt wrong u ****ing jackass

Actually, what you said was

"here lordspippa why dont ya head for the hills and set up your own little 'lets talk about meaningful things' forum cuz like the others said this forum was set up for us to talk to each other about what we want so you keep ur lecture to urself"

See, the thing is, were you here when this was set up? No. Was Sven? Yes. Hence, he is infeintely more qualified to know what this forum is for than you. I have respect for Eoin who pointed out the evolution of the forum, but none for you who traipsed in with Bullshit

Oh, and if you don't care about Islam, why post in a thread about it. Oh, right, you're an idiot. Forgot that point there for a second.

Neil, Podge, Sorry about the off topicness, but I felt the need to refute that attack upon my person and I have nothing more to contribute to the thread yet.

Piste

Islam is a lovely religion, there is such a deep sense of community about it. They give 2% of their annual income to charity. They do all they can to help a married couple through difficulties but will allow them to get divorced. Their religion is so involved with their lives, stopping everything at set times of the day and getting up at the crack of dawn to pray as well as the fasting during Ramadan requires a lot of dedication and self discipline- something which I really admire.

StupidLikeAFox

It wasn't me! wrote:

How can you say Islam is miles away when, if you live in Dublin, or anywhere near it, you'll see examples of it every single day?! And Aonghus may be somewhat pedantic, but Sven makes a good point in that there hasn't been any worthwhile discussion around here in a long while. I'm involved in most discussion around here and, no matter what anyone says, it can be a bit inane. They're right. I'd like to talk about this now, as it could make for an interesting debate. As for "judging whether what we talk about is good enough", what the hell have we talked about recently?! Also, Aonghus is not a fool. He'll debate this topic properly, not tell someone, "In a thread that was set up to debate something, I'm going to tell the original poster to **** off and die because I don't like the way they said something or what they said".

Oh lord not this again :eek:

@ OP: In fairness if he wanted a discussion on Islam he could just have easily brought it up, twould have been discussed, everybody wins. No need to go insulting people or anything

RE Raph: In fairness he did tell her to **** off. Sort of asking for a rebuttal

RE Islam: In fairness is is pretty removed from ireland. It may have subtle effects on everyday life but as far as ireland is concerned we're still +90% catholic, so i dont think it bears *that* much of effect. Obviously islamics rights/ issues etc. must be addressed as it is probably on the rise, but as of yet it is still something which most knowledge is gained from media/ internet etc, and not so much irish everyday life.

Personally i wouldnt be phased by anyone who tells me their islam. If theyre hell bent on converting me well then i see them as religious nuts, and they are sectioned off in my mind along with religious nuts of all religions. But if theyre ok about it, why should anyone be pissed off with them? Its the dangerous heads of islam, who are preaching to bring down western civilisation, and have the influence over so many young people that become brainwashed that should be kept under wraps.

Wow i just realised that post was probably all just stating the obvious! oops!

Raphael wrote:

Neil, Podge, Sorry about the off topicness

Brownoser!!

It wasn't me!

In fairness I've told hundreds of people to **** off and it seems to only have that kind of negative effect on the internet. If he'd said it in person it wouldn't have been taken so seriously at all.

I like what you've said about Islam though. To me they're people, just like everyone else, and deserve to be treated as such, not looked at with suspicion just because of their religion. I treat religios fanatics of any denomination the same way. I take them with a pinch of salt (mmmm... religious fanatic...)

Caoimhe

Not a big person for organised religion but I'm fascinated by the ideals and customs of different religions. I agree with what many people have previously said - people have a tendency to judge an entire religion by the extremists of the religion.
I was in Egypt recently where Islam is the dominant religion and I quite literally every person I met in Cairo and El Gouna were extremely pleasant, welcoming and helpful people. We were walking down a back alleyway and a family actually invited us in to their wedding celebrations so we could see what the Islam religion had as their traditions. The biggest emphasis was on sharing whatever you had with neighbours and family, because most of the people I met were incredibly poor.

I met countless women who were perfectly happy to wear their headscarves - it's part of their religion and they accept and value it. Of course I met women who weren't allowed speak without permission but it was a clear minority. To me, Islam is misunderstood religion with a lot of generalisation surrounding its followers, but the real picture isn't getting through. Just like there are different types of Christianity there's different types of Islam. I can't remember where I'm going with all this because I'm very tired but if I remember I'll post again.

doonothing

what really pisses me off bout boards these days, is people sticking their nose in and getting involved in petty little arguments that no one cares about anyway...








in ncase you're wondering, im being both serious, sarcastic and ironic (:

Crash

Am i the only one seeing this as a very broad and completely aimless debate? i mean, this topic is similar to a black V. White discussion without ignoring all the millions and billions of intermittent greys.

also, sven this is one of your poorer trolls.

secondly, this forum has been through so many different changes at this time its not worth getting worked up when its not the same one you thought it was - because it was only as good as you thoguht it was because you knew everyone on the forum.


Thirdly, iirc i'm taller than you. Shut up. :P

Liquorice

Just on the subject of the 'Islamic women are oppressed' opinion many people have(thankfully it hasn't appeared here yet), a lot of my neighbours are Islamic(I live near a Mosque)and I've talked to a woman who lectures in Islamic Studies, and it's in very, very rare cases that the women are oppressed. Most of these cases would be in the few countries where the government sets down the laws that oppress them.

The reason that they cover themselves(and they do have the choice to do so, and a choice about the extent to which they wish to do so) is so that they can save their beauty for their partner and hence avoid any unwanted male attention. That's not oppression, that's protection. It's the same thing as far as not going out without a male relative is concerned, although that's becoming increasingly rare. It's been ingrained in most societies that women don't let men know they're being objectified, it happens far less often than men catcalling at women etc. because that's simply the way we've been conditioned all of our lives.

Undergod

First of all, to anyone in the "**** off, we can talk about whatever we like" gang, well I'd like to agree with you. This forum is for CTYIers to talk about stuff, and if the stuff Sven (a CTYIer) wishes to talk about concerns Islam, well then he can. You are not obliged to post on every thread. If you don't like this thread feel free to ignore it. I'm not insulting anyone or taking sides, but please, will no-one start fights.

On the subject of Islamic women... because of the way human society is, we are all naturally ethnocentric. The most common argument for the way Islamic women are 'forced' to dress is that it is respectful, and the female body is more beautiful when it less exposed. As is said above, Islamic women have a choice in how they dress, and apparently, many Islamic people find the way the way women are forced to dress, and the way the female body is increasingly exposed in Western media, offensive and distasteful.

In the west, women's bodies are respected in a different way. Western people find the way that Islamic women are 'forced' to dress offensive.

Its just a matter of perspective in my opinion.

Bazookatone

I've met only a few Muslims in my life, and none of them tried to shoot me or blow me up, so I reckon most of them are okay. The thing with Islam is this, many of the countries where it is the main religion were, up until recently, less advanced than the West, I don't mean this in a derogatory way, just keep reading and you'll get my meaning.

Before Oil was found there, Saudi Arabia and Iraq were more like the missing holes in a jigsaw than real countries. But in the last 80-100 years, thay have undergone a cultural evolution that took western Europe and America about 500 years. Imagine 500 years of political upheaval, including the Napoleonic Wars, the English Civil War, the French and American Revolution, being compressed into 80 years. It took a century of upheaval for all of Europe to do away with the idea of divine right of kings, to introduce parlimentary democracy, free press and to remove the political power of the Catholic Church. Fundamental changes in how people think take place gradually, over decades. We expect the people of the Middle East to do it in weeks. That's why there's so much tension and bitterness on both sides.

LiamD

Raphael wrote:

Inclined to tell GlitterB to fuck off and learn how to spell before making his/her stupid point but meh

Here turtle dude, would ya ever just give it up.How long have you been pullin that learn to spell one?It's been goin on months.Who are you to tell he to **** off?Just coz you wanna be seen as mister sensible lets debate big meaningful topics.Loadsa people have been tellin me what you used to be like on here, but you'd probably prefer to forget bout that.

So how bout you go and **** off before you make your stupid needy attention seeking posts.Might give us all some peace for a while.

Raphael

I'm fully aware that I was a complete idiot when I registered. Then I learned sense, something which a large number of this years new users have (unfortunatly) managed to avoid doing.

Ah **** it, I couldn't bother replying to everything you said, I'm off to play Neverwinter Nights

Aoibheann

Liam, dragging it further off topic and flaming is not what's needed around here. I'm sure I'm not the only one who would appreciate it if you would please stop. cheers.
Anyhoo...Islam and its law are fascinating to me(note: islamic law: best debate/argument ever!). . it can seem a bit over the top, and too much religious influence on the law may not be a good thing. but for the most part, it does work. yeah, you get some countries where the government goes completely overboard, and there is quite a lot of oppression in those countries-they tend to stick of old-fashioned values that are way out of date, and oppressive to women. however, those countries seem to be the exception rather than the rule.
covering up is one of what we may call an oppression, but a lot of women arent bothered with having to cover themselves up, because it's what they've lived with all their lives. it's normal to them, and if they have no problems with it, neither should we.

Also: I'm probably not making any sense. but you all know I never make sense.. :