A little controversy

HeyYou

Ok, fair enough, but it's kind of hard to think of what changes could actually be made to make it owrk any better. The only things that I can see that could potentially be done are:

a) Give the police more power (as in my last post)

b) Give the people more power to do it themselves i.e. vigilante justice, which I think we can all agree is a bad idea. It's like saying crime is OK if it's perpetrated against bad people who had it coming.

c) Give the police less power, which makes no sense.

d) Give the courts more power of sentencing with harsher punishments; that's an ongoing process, sentences are always modelled to fit the crime and reflect its severity.

If anyone can think of any more potential changes, particularly non-crazy ones, I'd love to hear them. I'm all out...

joe the coat

education? Thats risky too, comes to close to brainwashing sometimes...

Raphael

There is the Islamic system. Steal an apple, lose the hand that stole it. A bit OTT maybe...but they have a very low crime rate

joe the coat

crime can come from within a state as well. Thats why we're discussing whats allowable for police forces to do... and are you sure they have a low crime rate?

Also... is the crime rate as bad as we think? Moral outrage is often inverse to the actual offence.

It wasn't me!

Well you can be damn sure people try harder not to get caught!

Undergod

You lot kept me awake last night, hammering angrily at your keyboards...

A number of things...

TalkISCheap wrote:

nor are we ever again likely to after they closed the nazi/communist/etc.. death camps....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rex_84

2nd, most of the problems caused by drugs stem from illegality. There were about a few hundred heroin addicts in Ireland, until it was made illegal. They turned to dealers to get it, who saw an opportunity to open up a huge market. They sold the heroin for ridiculous prices, junkies couldn't afford it so how did they make money? By selling heroin. I'm nt saying it should be freely available, but I think it's worth noting.
That said, heroin is a very bad thing, I doubt you can reasonably argue otherwise. It takes over lives, I'm sure you've heard stories of people who sold everything in there house to get a fix. Scraped wallpaper off to try and sell it, tearing radiators off the walls and dismantling sinks to get a bit of cash.

Raphael

If a punishment is terrible and efficiently enforced, it just isn't worth the risk to commit crime. The other, similar idea is the batman principle. Beat the living mulefuck out of anyone who breaks the law

joe the coat

sure it works? in Texas there are prisons that use cattle prods and remote control electric belts.

doonothing

hmm... its harder to just think up of more suitable solutions than the ones which have been watered down to us by generation after generation of older and wiser thinkers than we than you'd think! hmm..
maybe education would be good. like, my religion teacher who never actually shows us anything religious, got us to watch tis video today... twas about the murder of a teenage boy in england by a gang of thugs cos he slagged 'em or something.. i mean, you cant expect it to effect everyone, but our class literally looked shell-shocked after the class, i think it really got through to people...
but as joe said, brainwashing...not good...
see, justice and injustice etc, its much more than just a political issue, its social etc, with most criminality (hopefully i dint just make that word up) stemming from family and the home etc...
so maybe start there? maybe future generations could try to stop the problem rather than deal with it day by day...

StupidLikeAFox

never mind, nothing to see here, keep walking....

joe the coat

ColHol, what the hell does that mean? Is it trying to make fun of him, or is it a failed link?

Oh and Undergod, sure that Rex 84 thing is real? I checked for it on FAS.org (very good for checking conspiracy theorys) and there wasn't a whisper...

Crash

HeyYou wrote:

"eh, irwin? would this discussion really be happening if that system was working?
i mean, it works in dealing with people the police happen to catch, but is it really doing anything to make anyone feel safer?
and don't patronise me, i meant bad people as in people who do bad things, not just criminals because there is inevitably a problem defining criminals, and it was int context of people saying scumbags should all be killed but im sure the present system would run into as much trouble defining scumbags and saying who of them should be killed.
and i meant does anyone believe there's going to be a faultless system out there that everyone can agree on for pubishing all those who everyone can see fit to be punished.
i wasnt just asking for you to tell me the name of the justice system we have in place right now thanks."

OK:

A system doesn't work 100% of the time, therefore it's obviously useless. That's essentially what you're saying. Yes, there are still criminals, and yes, the CJS should work harder to punish criminals and prevent criminality. But the issue here is a balance of rights one. People who commit crimes, or are accused of crimes, lose some (but NOT ALL) of their rights for the greater good of society; they can be held for interrogation (loss of freedom of movement) or jailed (loss of freedom entirely). They do retain other rights, like the right to life, etc. In order to "make people feel safer", in your words, you seem to be leaning towards a system that allows the police greater freedom to do as they see fit to prevent crime from occurring, and I'm not convinced that that's the way to go.

Look at the Patriot Act in America and all the extra rights that were given to police as a result. Yes, America is now "safer", but all the rights and principles of democracy it allegedly stands for don't seem to amount to much if the freedoms that non-criminals enjoy can be taken away on a whim. So, to answer you question: no, no-one will agree on a perfect system, but the one we've got is the worst except for all of the other ones.

All i can really say to this entire post is "Spot the debater" :rolleyes:

HeyYou

Guilty as charged...my secret's out! I feel so dirty.

Bazookatone

Undergod wrote:

Most of the problems caused by drugs stem from illegality. There were about a few hundred heroin addicts in Ireland, until it was made illegal. They turned to dealers to get it, who saw an opportunity to open up a huge market. They sold the heroin for ridiculous prices, junkies couldn't afford it so how did they make money? By selling heroin. I'm nt saying it should be freely available, but I think it's worth noting.
That said, heroin is a very bad thing, I doubt you can reasonably argue otherwise. It takes over lives, I'm sure you've heard stories of people who sold everything in there house to get a fix. Scraped wallpaper off to try and sell it, tearing radiators off the walls and dismantling sinks to get a bit of cash.

Don't you think that's over simplifying the situation? Why exactly would the number of junkies increase, as soon as heroin was made illegal?

Even if heroin, or other drugs were legalised, that would not reverse the damage.
1) People would still commit crimes to pay for drugs
2) The drug barons wouldn't simply go "oh right then, I'll just stop selling my drugs at an insane profit." No they would either,A) go legitimate selling drugs or (more likely) use their crimnal orginisation to destroy their legitimate opposition.

The only way to fight the drugs scourge is to catch and jail dealers and suppliers and use the CAB to sieze their assets. If I were a judge, I would simply say to every dealer brought before me:

"Tell the police the name of your supplier within ten seconds, or you'll spend the rest of your natural life in prison, the CAB will take every penny you have and your family will be denied social welfare"

StupidLikeAFox

joe the coat wrote:

ColHol, what the hell does that mean? Is it trying to make fun of him, or is it a failed link?

HAHA, there was another picture there and someone obv changed it! Damn that hotlinking from other peoples sites!

doonothing

what was the picture of?

mentalimplosion

Undergod wrote:

2nd, most of the problems caused by drugs stem from illegality. There were about a few hundred heroin addicts in Ireland, until it was made illegal. They turned to dealers to get it, who saw an opportunity to open up a huge market. They sold the heroin for ridiculous prices, junkies couldn't afford it so how did they make money? By selling heroin. I'm not saying it should be freely available, but I think it's worth noting.

i hardly think you can blame the upshoot of heroin addicts purely on the illegalisation of it... i mean, other factors, such as the gradual decaying of society and family/moral values, the rise of 'the teenager', unemployment etc etc are surely thrown in there too.
and surely the current system (methadone clinics) is already (attempting to) bypass the whole dealer-route anyway? i can't see how making heroin anymore available would help.

Crash

methadone clinics in ireland are a joke. i'm much, MUCH too tired to type out why, but i'm sure someoen can :P

joe the coat

Drug dealers haven't the capital to keep up with legal companies in an open legal market. The single most expensive substance in the world is only available legally. Its a drug used to combat both AIDS and MS, and 2 litres are produced a year, diluted till theres enough (its very very powerful), then sold for a few billion dollars for the whole lot. Heroin hasn't a look in. So drug dealers could be quickly out-produced, undercut, destroyed. Anyway, making them legal businessmen immediatly increases tax income for government, and reduces crime, cos if they're making nice money legally, why bother with crime? crime pays, but rarely as well as legitimate business.

Piste

On the whole Methadone thnig, It is a joke, it's more addictive than heroin. 'Twould be easier to wean addicts onto a less a_Harmfull and b)Addictive drug and then wean them off that. Methadone is controlled by large pharmacutical companies who'd hate to loose out on the easy market that is Junkies.

StupidLikeAFox

making something legal doesnt make it right? If ya made mugging and robbery legal then technically the crime rate would go down too.

''crime pays, but rarely as well as legitimate business''
No im pretty sure drug dealing is very very lucrative

And making it legal wont stop drug dealers killing each other etc. Try explain competition and markets to a man with guns and gangs.

Personnally i think the drug producing countries should be targeted. Nip it in the bud and all. But of course that wont happen because the countries are pretty lawless and all, and they wont refuse the dirty money, so ill leave it to others more interested than i to come up with ways of tackling it

joe the coat

Do drug dealers buy islands in the Caribbean? Or penthouse suites in downtown Manhattan? Is the worlds richest man a crook? My dad produces pharmaceuticals... the money there is vast (sadly he only gets a small part of it). Put yeah, crime will still be there...

Countries don't produce drugs (except maybe North Korea, but they produce counterfeit US dollars as part of their national economic non-policy). Individiuals do. Before you target them, find something else for them to do...

pinkpimp

Yes, but drug growth and production is largely centered in certain countries, like Columbia and Mexico.

I doubt legalising heroin would solve anything. Better facilities for rehabilitation and some way of educationg and helping disadvantaged people get out of their situation are the solution to the problem. (however difficult to attain)

HeyYou

Legalise heroin?! Have we gone mad?! And aren't italics the best?!

But seriously. If there's a drug that should be legalised, it's cannabis. If there's a hard drug problem around, it's not because Class A drugs are illegal, but because cannabis is. This means that people get their hash from illegal outlets, who also supply and push harder drugs; this is how most people get started on heroin and cocaine. If cannabis was legalised, people wouldn't have to go to dealers to get it, and thus wouldn't be exposed to harder drugs.

In addition, a lot of people avoid doing things just because they're illegal. If we legalise heroin, more people will take it, simple as that. And we don't want that, do we?

Undergod

Bazookatone wrote:

Don't you think that's over simplifying the situation? Why exactly would the number of junkies increase, as soon as heroin was made illegal?

For the reasons I explained, and because that's what did happen.

And I wasn't blaming it purely on its legalisation. I did try to say that (note "I think it's worth noting"). But if it hadn't been made illegal, it wouldn't be available illegaly, as the few existing junkies could get it on prescription, few dealers would bother selling it.

And Irwin, I was not (heehee italics) proposing legalisation of heroin.

Bazookatone

joe the coat wrote:

Drug dealers haven't the capital to keep up with legal companies in an open legal market..

You've just made my point for me, why would hardened criminals fell compelled to fight fair. Why not torch a few pharmecies, or kneecap one or two chemists?

joe the coat wrote:

Heroin hasn't a look in. So drug dealers could be quickly out-produced, undercut, destroyed.

The type of people who shot Veronica Guerin aren't going to simply watch their little criminal empires dissolve.

joe the coat wrote:

Anyway, making them legal businessmen immediatly increases tax income for government, and reduces crime, cos if they're making nice money legally, why bother with crime? crime pays, but rarely as well as legitimate business.

With respect, you have just proposed legitimising crme to lower a statistic, would you make bank robbery legal to cut the number of "illegal" bank robberies?

joe the coat wrote:

crime pays, but rarely as well as legitimate business.

Again, with respect, if legitimate business pays better than crime, then why are the criminals driving the Mercs, while we all drive corollas??

joe the coat

cos they rob them? Anyway, nothing wrong with a corolla. My dad could buy a merc, if he really wanted to. He doesn't, he buys second hand corollas. Simplicity. Its probably conspicious consumption. And how many drug dealers DO drive mercs? What proportion of Mercedes drivers are drug dealers? Ok, criminals probably do. But corrupt politicians aren't the same thing.

Do hardened criminals attack methadone clinics?

That was mostly a joke, about lowering crime by making a crime legal...

Lets look at this in a consumer based way. Say one is a junkie. One has a choice - illegal drug dealer, where the heroin could be cut with anything, its been diluted down, and he's liable to do nasty things to you. Or a pharmacist, who's regulated (strictly!) and isn't going to do nasty things to you.

HeyYou

NO! And to a lesser extent: NO!

If we legalise heroin, more people will take it. It's illegal for a reason, it's because it's dangerous. It's not one of those drugs that if it's used safely and in pure form it doesn't do any form: every time you use it you're doing yourself real damage, legalising it would be nuts.

Bazookatone

joe the coat wrote:

cos they rob them? Anyway, nothing wrong with a corolla.

Lets look at this in a consumer based way. Say one is a junkie. One has a choice - illegal drug dealer, where the heroin could be cut with anything, its been diluted down, and he's liable to do nasty things to you. Or a pharmacist, who's regulated (strictly!) and isn't going to do nasty things to you.

True, toyotas are perfectly good cars. But would a junkie go to the pharmecy if he knew that a dealer and his heavies were waiting around the corner to beat him up for not giving them the business. Plus, if a junkie was thinking rationally, why would they be addicted to heroin at all?

HeyYou

"True, toyotas are perfectly good cars. But would a junkie go to the pharmecy if he knew that a dealer and his heavies were waiting around the corner to beat him up for not giving them the business."

I just love the logical progression from the first sentence to the second, such fluency...