hi-def and prog-scan flaws.

Balfa

I was just doing a bit of thinking, and realised that, at least for this console generation, progressive scan and HDTV modes are a bit of a drawback. Take the most radical mode as an example... The XBOX supports high definition picture at 1080i, which is five times the resolution of the standard 480i that normal TVs output. Any PC gamer will tell you that to play at five times the resolution, you need roughly five times the graphics power. This means that an XBOX game that supports 1080i is only using 1/5 of the console's ability if you run the game at the standard 480i.

And how many people actually have a HDTV and the approrpiate cable to make use of 1080i? Not a lot, as Nintendo claimed less than 1% of gamecube owners actually made use of the progressive scan mode, as their excuse for removing the ability of newer gamecubes to output that mode.

So what we have is a tiny percentage of users able to use the xbox to its full potential, and the rest of us getting a game that could be five times more impressive in its polygon counts, texture detail and effects, if it did away with supporting 1080i.

The same goes (but to a lesser extent) for XBOX's lower HDTV modes and for Gamecube's and PS2's progressive scan mode.

It's a bit crap, really

Ciaran500

Hi def is a lot more popular in America. Its only starting off in Europe, hence the reason there was no release of the HD pack over here.

Hi-def is the way forward for the next gen of consoles with 720p being set as the minimum for Xbox2. With screens getting bigger 480i/p is just not enough.

There are only 6 games released that support 1080i and about 30 that support 720p so its not a alot of games that are not using the xbox to the full.

Balfa

Ciaran500 wrote:

Hi-def is the way forward for the next gen of consoles with 720p being set as the minimum for Xbox2. With screens getting bigger 480i/p is just not enough.

yeah, i've heard that too. it must mean that games must support at least that in addition to 480i too, of course. otherwise hardly anyone's telly will run xbox2

There are only 6 games released that support 1080i and about 30 that support 720p so its not a alot of games that are not using the xbox to the full.

I've seen the list. I wonder are they in general uglier than their counterparts that support only 480p (atari antholohy is one of them, i guess there's my answer ). I'd imagine the only reason for a game not supporting 1080i is because it's so complex as it is that increasing the resolution would drop the framerate and make it unplayable. I mean, there's certainly no extra development effort involved in telling a game to run at a higher resolution.

But yeah, hi-def is definitely the way to go for the next generation. I'm kinda concerned over nintendo constantly talking about how the other two are going for raw horsepower whereas ninty are going for innovation. I hope they've realised that next gen consoles should be five times more powerful just to make the leap to good hi-def, and then much more powerful on top of that to make the usual leap forward in graphics from generation to generation.

But i suppose how it's always worked is that the hardware makers just pack as much power as they can into a product that they can keep under a certain market cost. I love hi-def, it looks great, and i'll be getting a hi-def tv as soon as i can scrounge enough cash together, but i'd actually prefer to see games that push hardware in polycount, textures and effects rather than just upping the resolution, although i understand that it's a cheap way for developers to make their titles look better. It costs nothing to have a game output 1080i, but it costs a LOT to have your artists build every model with twice the polygons, etc.

Ciaran500

Most game models are built with alot of polygons then cut down and optimised to keep the performance at a decent level.

More detailed textures/effects would be useless without high-def as you will not be able to see the finer details. To show this play a PC game at the 640x480, then play it at 1920x1080 (or the highest you can) without changing the detail level. The difference will be huge.

Matt Simis

Balfa.. strange way of phrasing things. How is it HD's flaw that current consoles are too slow? Also, 480P looks much better than 480I on my projector and it doesnt appear to have an appreciatable slowdown.

HD Support on XB is building blocks to standardised HDTV support on the nextgen hardware, which is exactly whats happening.

Also, [virtually] all Plasmas and Projectors in Europe support HDTV and it seems all the new RPTVs (mostly LCOS) I saw at CeBit support 720P natively, which was nice.


Matt

Balfa

Matt Simis wrote:

Balfa.. strange way of phrasing things. How is it HD's flaw that current consoles are too slow?

I never said current consoles are too slow. No matter what speed the hardware is, there will always be a trade-off between resolution and complexity.

Also, [virtually] all Plasmas and Projectors in Europe support HDTV and it seems all the new RPTVs (mostly LCOS) I saw at CeBit support 720P natively, which was nice.

What's currently for sale at the high end of the market and what's currently in people's homes are two very different things.

I know that hidef is the way forward. Like i said, i love it, and i'm going to get a hdtv soon. but it's unfortunate that gamers without hdtvs (that's 99%) are having to make do with visual quality that isn't pushing the hardware fully.

Matt Simis

Balfa wrote:

I never said current consoles are too slow. No matter what speed the hardware is, there will always be a trade-off between resolution and complexity.

Ah.. Ive reread what you posted and see what you mean. However, it still doesnt pan out:

- 5x res does not need "5x power", it needs more, however it needs way more Fillrate than anything else.
- Higher polygon complexity and physics rendering demands totally different HW than higher resolution. See a similar effect on a PC, changing the CPU alone has a small impact on the resolutions you can play at. Changing from a GPU with 128bit to 256bit memory addressing (but same GPU) has a large effect.

I think you can reach a compromise of scene complexity and resolution, but only on a HD set (as you are 100% restricted on a low def set).


Matt

sound_wave

I don't know much about this topic but Eurogamer have an article on it.

Link...

Balfa

Matt Simis wrote:

changing the CPU alone has a small impact on the resolutions you can play at. Changing from a GPU with 128bit to 256bit memory addressing (but same GPU) has a large effect.

These are all specifics that i understand, which is why i purposefully used the vague and general term "graphics power", as i didn't want to get to involved in the ins and outs of it, as that's not that point i'm trying to make. Suffice to say you need a lot more oomph to draw bigger resolutions.

It's interesting to note that much of the 1080i games like enter the matrix were probably primarily developed for the PS2, then when porting to xbox, they didn't bother increasing the complexity but just bumped the resolution.

I think you can reach a compromise of scene complexity and resolution, but only on a HD set (as you are 100% restricted on a low def set).

I meant to agree with this good point when you posted it in your previous reply, but forgot to. please forgive me
It's true, but i did say that i wanted them to focus on complexity and not just increase the resolution


One final thing, that eurogamer article on HD sucks. Read howstuffworks.com :P

Ciaran500

This argument is like a PC gamer complaining there PC isn't up to spec for the latest game. If you want to experience the game to the full you will need to spend extra. This has alwaysbeen like this and is never going to change.

Matt Simis

Balfa wrote:

I meant to agree with this good point when you posted it in your previous reply, but forgot to. please forgive me
It's true, but i did say that i wanted them to focus on complexity and not just increase the resolution


One final thing, that eurogamer article on HD sucks. Read howstuffworks.com :P

Heh, well, it is an interesting spin on HD I hadnt thought of. But, owning HD gear too, its in my interest that people blindly rush out and base purchases on HD ability they personally may not be able to experience.


Matt