Commissioner calls for review of Irish language teaching

ishmael whale

simu wrote:

No, poor sex-ed is due to Catholic ideology prevailing in some schools.

From what I can gather there are fewer Irish teenagers giving birth than in the UK, which in turn has far fewer than the US. So blaming it on religious control of education seems misplaced. Indeed, thirty years ago, when religious control would have been stronger, unmarried Irish teenagers produced babies more rarely than Pandas in captivity.

Equally, it seems to be Scandanavian countries and the like that have low rates of teenage pregnancy and they are also reputed to have frank sex education. But there’s more to this issue than more sex education and condoms = fewer pregnancies.

I don’t hold the time wasted failing to teach pupils Irish as responsible for teenage pregnancy. I do hold the resources wasted as partly responsible for the mediocre performance of our students at the OECD survey of maths and problem solving skills.

simu

ishmael whale wrote:

From what I can gather there are fewer Irish teenagers giving birth than in the UK, which in turn has far fewer than the US. So blaming it on religious control of education seems misplaced. Indeed, thirty years ago, when religious control would have been stronger, unmarried Irish teenagers produced babies more rarely than Pandas in captivity.

I'm not saying there is a huge problem with teen births here. Overall, there is some level of sex-ed in most schools in the country plus people get information from other sources. However, some teachers are still too embarassed or conservative to teach sex-ed (due to religion) and this is the biggest problem of a not all that problematic area.

I don't know about Pandas but the existence of Magdalen Laundries suggests that teenage births were well-hidden rather than non-existent in the past.

I don’t hold the time wasted failing to teach pupils Irish as responsible for teenage pregnancy. I do hold the resources wasted as partly responsible for the mediocre performance of our students at the OECD survey of maths and problem solving skills.

I don't think it's necessary to devote more time to maths - they should teach it better though. When I was taught maths, there was no consistency or discussion of the reasons that people bothered to invent maths in the first place. You do one mathematical topic after another and while they all have some things in common, they seem a bit haphazard as well, so it's hard to remember them come exam-time. Also, the myth that you are either good at maths or not should be destroyed - teachers are all too quick to relegate some students to pass classes when they might understand the topics if more effort was made and they believed they had the ability to do well.

i think most of the problems in our education system come down to poor teaching methods rather than time shortages. I'm not blaming teachers here - they can only work with the curricula they are given to follow.

ishmael whale

simu wrote:

I don't know about Pandas but the existence of Magdalen Laundries suggests that teenage births were well-hidden rather than non-existent in the past.

http://www.cso.ie/releasespublications/documents/vitalstats/2002/annualreport_2002.pdf
If you look at table 2.1 in the publication above you can see that births outside marriage (not the same as unwanted pregnancies, but close enough for our purposes) stayed below 4% of total births until 1980 when they shot up to 9% (ironically following the first Irish family planning act.) They currently stand at about 30%. This is not definitive, and makes no split between teenagers and others, but still a reasonably clear picture is that there are more unplanned pregnancies now.

simu wrote:

I don't think it's necessary to devote more time to maths - they should teach it better though. .

I accept that additional classroom time is not necessarily the whole answer, but I’d hesitate before ruling it out.

If someone (in this case the Irish language commissioner) points out that we are spending a considerable amount of time and resource on teaching Irish and achieving very little with it, I would feel like I’ve found a fiver in my pocket. I would not assume that the amount of time spent on Irish must be correct and that all we need to address is how we fill that time. Look on it this way, if they got the content so wrong for so long what’s the basis for saying they got the resource level right?

It would seem clear to me that a potential solution might involve allocating an amount of time and resource away from Irish, where its achieving so little, towards maths and problem solving where there is a need to achieve.

Sponge Bob

A potential solution might involve revising the curriculum from Primary school up to ensure that spoken skills take primacy . The state is afraid to admit , however, that the teaching of spoken Irish is not practised in some primary schools despite the fact the the Primary teachers are supposed to be trained in Irish and that the same Primary teachers refuse to implement their own curriculum. Their Inspectors then refuse to ask questions which would force them to act . The teachers know they wont and breach their obligation to teach the curriculum even more, etc etc.

As a consequence of this the secondary curricilum has been dumbed down badly to deal with frequent non-implementation of the Primary School curriculum by Primary schools. .

If the state admits , tacitly or otherwise, that their own staff in National schools are being a la carte with the curriculum then who knows where that will lead. Many myths have been propounded about our 'first rate' education system in ireland but thats all they are in many cases, myths.

The reality is ugly . The reality in math is particularly ugly .

Lots of sacked primary teachers (for incompetence and breach of contract) would be a great help .

abccormac

Could most of us get through the week without having a level of basic competence in maths? Or if we were unable to read English?

You get the basic competence in primary school, I was talking abiut second level.

Slutmonkey57b

abccormac wrote:

And now we get to the crux of it. There is no great art in Irish. Have you ever read the tain? the midnight court? any one of the great many other Irish literary works? And can you provide some figures to back up your assertion that the teaching of Shakespeare is economically advantageous?

And is any of that on the syllabus? Oh, no it isn't. And before perfidious albion is blamed for that, the propagandists in the Irish departments of the government have had 80 years to put whatever they like on the curriculum, so it isn't down to the "denigration" of Irish by historical factors. As was pointed out elsewhere, the Czech republic has successfully re-invigorated its own language in only 15 years after living under the most brutal and far-ranging repression of modern times. The Gaelgoirs have been brainwashing us for 80 and have got nowhere.

I never said there was no great Irish language art (though I'd be hard pressed to believe it since the language simply doesn't have the depth of vocabulary that English, Greek, Latin, German, Mandarin, or Japanese has to express itself in), what I said was that the teaching of English literature gives students access to a body of work that is massive and practically unparalleled in its scope and depth and beauty. The same can not be said, however optimistic you are, of Irish.

And teaching Irish provides a basis for people to go into jobs which require it, such as teaching,(24,700 jobs at primary level according to the c.s.o. ) or the irish language media. You still haven't explained why maths should be compulsory and Irish shouldn't.

Haaaaaaaaah! Oh that's funny.

And tell, me, dear friend, why do those jobs "require" Irish?

Why, because the Gaelgoir nazis have forced an Irish requirement into those jobs! Why would a teacher need to understand Irish in order to teach any subject on the syllabus apart from Irish? They wouldn't.

And why is there an Irish language media?

Why, because the Gaelgoir nazis have hijacked my licence fee to pay for TG4 and other Irish propaganda outlets that would never survive on their own two feet!

abccormac

(though I'd be hard pressed to believe it since the language simply doesn't have the depth of vocabulary that English, Greek, Latin, German, Mandarin, or Japanese has to express itself in)

Do you have any facts to back that up or is it just something you made up off the top of your head? I suggest you get hold of heaneys translation of the tain, and have a look.

And tell, me, dear friend, why do those jobs "require" Irish?

Why, because the Gaelgoir nazis have forced an Irish requirement into those jobs! Why would a teacher need to understand Irish in order to teach any subject on the syllabus apart from Irish? They wouldn't.

Primary school teachers teach all subjects, if irish is to be a part of the curriculum at all, the Irish language would still be a requirement for them. There are other aspects to the Irish language media other than tg4. There are several Irish language newspapers in circulation. Many english language radio stations have an irish language news slot.

My point , which you seem to have missed is that we seem much quicker to condemn Irish as a waste of time than other subjects,such as art or music which have little or no tangible point. I have never seen somebody call on art or music to be removed from the school curriculum, but people regularly give out about how we are wasting resources teaching irish to our children. I know that Irish is the only one of these subjects which is compulsory at second level, but both art and music are taught at primary level, were students don't have any choice in what they learn. Whats the difference?

Maths is also compulsory at second level, rightly so imo, but the majority of people will never need most of it. I haven't solved a simultaneous equation, or done any differential calculus since I did my leaving ten years ago, but I still don't think I wasted my time learning maths. I haven't read any english poetry
sice then either, but I don't think studying it was a waste either. Both subjects broaden your horizons to some extent. My irish now is quite poor, but I am very grateful that I was forced, against my will at the time, to study it. Like it or not the language is a part of who we are as a people and as a state. If we make it optional in schools it will die completely very quickly. If you're happy with that, then fair enough, but I wouldn't be.


And the constant references to nazis and propaganda makes you sound like a spoilt teenager throwing a tantrum by the way.

Slutmonkey57b

Propaganda is exactly what the gaelgoirs use to promulgate their message so I've no qualms about using that phrase. Although I'll admit the nazi comment is in humerous mode.

Again you're ignoring the fact that I have removed your arguments. You state that Primary teachers have to have Irish because it's compulsory, ergo Irish is useful. You state the Irish media requires Irish speakers, ergo Irish is useful.
How many times must I point out that the only reason these things exist is because they are artificially forced into existance? You're not backing up your point here, you're backing up mine.

If you think learning Art and Music serve no purpose you have no conception of basic brain function, learning theory, and even the obvious point that some students are creative rather than academic.

Slutmonkey57b

If you don't believe me that the vocabulary of the Irish language is sparse (as even the most ardent Irish fan I know has been forced to admit), then here's a siple test for you:

Get the most comprehensive dictionary of the Irish language you can find.
Then get a copy of the full Oxford English Dictionary.
See which is bigger.

I'll give you a hint: after over 150 years of study, the OED is on its Second Edition. It contains over 400,000 definitions, is made of 20 volumes and takes up four feet of shelf space.

If you still don't believe me, then how about this: Lets make up a list of the 1,000 greatest works of literature in both languages. I'm willing to bet that there aren't 1000 great works of Irish literature. So let's be fair. Let's restrict it to great works of literature produced since the artificial revival of Irish in the 1880's. Let's see which language has produced a more impressive body of work.

I'm not simply trying to denigrate the Irish language here (that's quite easy), I'm trying to leave you with a very simple point:
Irish is a marginal language.
It has very little real-world support.
It has very little to offer us in and of itself.
It does NOT define who we, as Irish people are, in the 21st century.

If the gaelgoirs of the world would simply accept this, and work on promoting the language on the basis of which it actually exists then they would have an easier job of it. Persisting in the fiction that it is our "official" language, that the Gaeltacht is a success, that it is an integral part of our lives, merely exposes them to quiet ridicule. We all listen to it, and most people (except for people like me) pay all these precepts lip service, but deep down, we all know that a) they're not true and b) we're not going to do anything to change it.

If they want to promote the language, they have to do a better job of it.
Making artificial uses for it does not promote it. Throwing money at it is a spectacular failure. Forcing people to learn it in school is equally a failure. But there will never be an honest reappraisal of what the Irish language is, or how it can be promoted, without accepting the reality of the situation. Bashing teachers, or curriculums, or perfidious albion, while ignoring the truth of what Irish actually is to us in the 21st century, only gives people like me more ammunition to shoot it down.

Slutmonkey57b

Sponge Bob wrote:

Many myths have been propounded about our 'first rate' education system in ireland but thats all they are in many cases, myths.

The reality is ugly . The reality in math is particularly ugly .

Very true.

Lots of sacked primary teachers (for incompetence and breach of contract) would be a great help .

Lots of sacked gaelgoirs from government-sponsered propaganda waffle pits would be more useful, and probably a much bigger wage saving given what teachers get paid.

ishmael whale

I read this and I couldn't help thinking that at least there's some benefit derived from spending €27 million teaching English to foreign pupils, and I'd expect the pupils are least interesting in learning the subject.

Where's the sense of outrage about the €500 million that's being largely wasted failing to teach Irish to English speakers?

http://www.examiner.ie/pport/web/ireland/Full_Story/did-sghHv6-KlZvycsgdq-nXlDAyFE.asp

Teaching English to foreign pupils costs €27m

By Niall Murray, Education Correspondent
THE Government is spending €27 million a year on language support for non-English speaking children being taught in Irish schools.

The money pays for 600 teaching staff who provide additional English classes for pupils, at primary and secondary level, whose first language is not English.

Schools are approved for a language support teacher if they have between 14 and 27 pupils not from English-speaking countries. An extra staff member can be appointed for 28 or more such students. There are at least 8,400 students in primary and secondary education who do not speak English as a first language, but the Department of Education does not keep a record of the exact number of children involved.

However, a spokesperson said a further 2,000 children are helped by grants of €2.5m for part-time teachers in schools with up to 13 non-national pupils...

Andrew 83

I think the Leaving Cert Irish course that currently stands is excellent (I was in the first year to complete it in 2001, I can't speak for the pre-2001 LC course which many of you may have done) but the problem is, as many of you ahve eluded to, that some people don't have a good enough mastery of the language before they go into 5th year.

What I would do to fix it is this:

a) reinstate the old system whereby Infants was taught through Irish, I don't know why they ever got rid of this. Teaching can then be either through English or Irish from 1st class onwards.

b) place a lot more influence on oral speaking. When I was in primary school we spent a couple of hours each day in class discussions as Gaeilge all the way through school. It meant I had a better grasp of the language at 12 than many of my friends at 18. That needs to be done in all primary schools and then in secondary school classes it needs to be the same as well. The same goes for French, German etc as well. The reason English is learnt so well by people in toher countries is that they watch American films, Tv etc. This means they interact with the spoken word a lot more, this needs to be replicated with a higher emphasis on the oral side of things. If you can speak the language well grammar can become second nature before you try to teach it.

ishmael whale

Andrew 83 wrote:

a) reinstate the old system whereby Infants was taught through Irish, I don't know why they ever got rid of this. Teaching can then be either through English or Irish from 1st class onwards.

I think you probably have a point regarding the need to concentrate on the spoken language, but bear in mind that frequently parents will not have a good knowledge of Irish. That's certainly one reason why there would be resistance to teaching infants through Irish. Parents, or at least engaged parents, will want to know what their children are learning so they can support it at home.

While we're not operating from complete year zero, I think whatever revised policy might be put in place needs to recognise that Irish language teaching is happening in a context where a very significant portion,and possibly most, of the population have no real command of the language.

pork99

dent wrote:

I remember having an argument with my Irish teacher in secondary school about how the language was taught. He saw nothing wrong with it and I get the feeling that he thought he as quite elite.

There's the crux of the problem. In teaching generally there's no accountability. Teachers get their big benchmarked pay rises because they have a powerful union. The fact that there has been only one teacher dismissed for incompetence in the last, I think, 5 years would seem to indicate that they believe that they deserve greater than private sector level salary rises without the ruthless competition and insecurity of employment you have in private companies*. So yes teachers generally think they are an elite who are above criticism & accountability.

*I know this from talking to one or two teachers

The other side of it is that as an Irish speaker in the education system & state employment you get privileges. If everyone spoke fluent Irish it would no longer be a privilege. Given the poor standard of Irish teaching the best way of becoming an Irish speaker is to be born into an Irish speaking family. This makes it a sort of hereditary privilege. So from your teacher's point of view the current situation is just fine. It's in his interest, his kids will have an advantage over the other plebs so why would he want that to change? :rolleyes:

Time Magazine

pork99 wrote:

There's the crux of the problem. In teaching generally there's no accountability. Teachers get their big benchmarked pay rises because they have a powerful union. The fact that there has been only one teacher dismissed for incompetence in the last, I think, 5 years would seem to indicate that they believe that they deserve greater than private sector level salary rises without the ruthless competition and insecurity of employment you have in private companies*. So yes teachers generally think they are an elite who are above criticism & accountability.

*I know this from talking to one or two teachers

The other side of it is that as an Irish speaker in the education system & state employment you get privileges. If everyone spoke fluent Irish it would no longer be a privilege. Given the poor standard of Irish teaching the best way of becoming an Irish speaker is to be born into an Irish speaking family. This makes it a sort of hereditary privilege. So from your teacher's point of view the current situation is just fine. It's in his interest, his kids will have an advantage over the other plebs so why would he want that to change? :rolleyes:

After also speaking to one or two teachers, namely my mother who's done it for 40 years and my two sisters, they're not elitist. People have no idea how sh*t a job it can be, and how crappy the pay really is until you're made permanent. While you're TPT or whatever you're on absolutely crap money. I know for one, that my sister at 25, with 4 years' experience on top of an honours degree in education (not yer standard B.A.) had to get a summer job in a hotel.

Lack of accountability =/= elitism.

pork99

Angry Banana wrote:

People have no idea how sh*t a job it can be, and how crappy the pay really is until you're made permanent. While you're TPT or whatever you're on absolutely crap money.

Even if the money is crap (I could be wrong but don't we have the highest paid teachers in Europe?) once you are in you have 4 months paid holiday a year and a guaranteed pension don't you?

Evidently teachers cannot be fired. I've had the experience of turning up for work, in a job which as far as I was concerned was a "permanent" job, and finding myself out of a job before 11 am. No warning. Just "thank you very much we no longer need you". If that happened to a teacher their union would have someones gonads on a plate within 24 hours.

It was a badly run company which was losing money so me and my colleagues who found ourselves out of a job paid for someone else's incompetence. Teachers do not even seem to ever have to face any consequences if they're incompetence. If only one teacher over the last 5 years gets fired for poor performance then there must be a lot of dead-wood being carried in that profession.

I'm not picking on teachers - they're only one profession/service among others in this country, legal, medical, transport etc which needs a good root up the arse, a good shake out of the dead-wood.

jank

If you don't believe me that the vocabulary of the Irish language is sparse (as even the most ardent Irish fan I know has been forced to admit), then here's a siple test for you:

Actually, a group of world leading academics reported recently that Irish is one of the best descriptive languages in the world.....

As with everything what you put into it, you get out of it. Irish people are famous throughout the world for putting themselves and their culture down. The language itself is usually on the top of the list.

And what is with all this compulsory talk. Isn't History, geography compulsory for all but the last 2 years of your formal education?

It is also statistically proven that children who attend Gaelscoils achieve much more and better throughout their 2nd level education.

One more point. Around 60 years ago Hebrew was a long dead and ancient language. Now its the No1 spoken language in Israel. Now thats an achievement. But the thing is Israelis/Jews knew how important ones culture and language is to them and how important ones self identity is to them especially when they were almost gassed to extinction.

Its a pity we dont have the same pride in our selfs.

As I said we are the only country in the world with this language, but yet we spit on it, kick it, **** on it any time we can rather then trying to embrace it the best way we can. Sure its not a perfect situation but what is?

Be a philistine if you want but I know what I am.

ishmael whale

The main theme in this thread, as I see it, is that we’re spending €500 million teaching Irish, and not getting anything for it. That’s finally received some official recognition in the shape of the Commish accepting that, at the end of the process, students emerge with no real knowledge of Irish. This experience is not shared in other subjects – as per people acknowledging that they are able to fumble in French even though they spent less time learning it.

So Irish might be the most descriptive language in the world, whatever that means, and wonderful in every respect. That’s not the point. The point is we’re spending a big squad of money failing to teach people Irish.

jank wrote:

Irish people are famous throughout the world for putting themselves and their culture down.

jank wrote:

Be a philistine if you want but I know what I am.

This assumes that the Irish language is an essential part of Irish culture. Many of us feel this is not the case. The work of Irish writers in English, GAA, Irish music and now even Irish dance all have an active following. It’s the language that has trouble touching many Irish people.

jank wrote:

And what is with all this compulsory talk. Isn't History, geography compulsory for all but the last 2 years of your formal education?.

The compulsion element has been watered down, but Irish still takes up a sizeable portion of the primary curriculum. And as I understand it, you still need to pass a proficiency test in Irish before you are allowed to teach science to English speakers.

jank wrote:

It is also statistically proven that children who attend Gaelscoils achieve much more and better throughout their 2nd level education.

Gaelscoils also benefit from lower pupil teacher ratios, so its not necessarily indicating that a training in the Irish language opens the mind to learning.

If you want, we can relabel every primary school in the country a ‘Gaelscoil’. Then we’ll have the same number of teachers only with classes needing to be conducted in a language alien to most of the pupils and their families. Do you think that would be a good foundation for second level education?

Part of the problem with Irish language teaching in Ireland has been an unwillingness to accept that they are teaching it to a population that frequently, and probably mostly, has no substantial knowledge of it. It needs to be taught in the same way as a foreign language. Maybe then we’d see some return from the money we’re investing. And maybe we could do it for less than €500 million.

Alun

ishmael whale wrote:

Part of the problem with Irish language teaching in Ireland has been an unwillingness to accept that they are teaching it to a population that frequently, and probably mostly, has no substantial knowledge of it. It needs to be taught in the same way as a foreign language. Maybe then we’d see some return from the money we’re investing. And maybe we could do it for less than €500 million.

This is so true! As a 'foreigner' only recently having arrived in Ireland, and having something of a talent for languages, I thought I'd try and learn a little Irish, out of curiosity more than anything. What a disaster! Basically no-one here seems to know how to teach the language from scratch, and certainly not in any kind of structured way. Start asking about aspects of grammar and glazed expressions and "you don't need to know that" are the order of the day. Absolutely hopeless!

jank

The main theme in this thread, as I see it, is that we’re spending €500 million teaching Irish, and not getting anything for it

Well on one point id like to know more about this 500 million euro. UTV quote it but dont back up a source. 2nd whats a good return for one is not for another. True something needs to be done but how do you measure teaching? Its impossible

This experience is not shared in other subjects – as per people acknowledging that they are able to fumble in French even though they spent less time learning it.

You would be surprised how may people are able to fumble their way in Irish too but are less likely to attempt mainly because there is a shame factor with speaking it, which I will never understand.

This assumes that the Irish language is an essential part of Irish culture. Many of us feel this is not the case

Some think that GAA is culture others think its a few guys with sticks battering the **** out of each other on a field. Each to their own to their own however it is our sport as is Irish is our language. Unique in every sense.

Thing is you just proved my point 10 times over. If one doesnt assume his own native language, a language that is spoken nowewhere else in the whole world, is not an important part of the culture of ireland, then we live in a sad country. It seems that Irish people have no pride anymore in what belongs to them.

Saying that Irish is not an essential part of the Irish culture is truly one of the most idiotic comments I have heard about this subject or anything in a long time. Honestly come on!
Welsh is not an important part of Wlesh culture or Flemish is not an important part of Belgium culture?

As I said you sir have just proved my point 10 times over!

Gaelscoils also benefit from lower pupil teacher ratios, so its not necessarily indicating that a training in the Irish language opens the mind to learning.

Well funded international studies has shown that a child who starts learning 2 languages from the day he/she starts school perform much better, so its not an Ireland only thing! But we cant have French/German/Spanish being taught at primary school now becuase it will be a

language alien to most of the pupils and their families

jank

Alun wrote:

This is so true! As a 'foreigner' only recently having arrived in Ireland, and having something of a talent for languages, I thought I'd try and learn a little Irish, out of curiosity more than anything. What a disaster! Basically no-one here seems to know how to teach the language from scratch, and certainly not in any kind of structured way. Start asking about aspects of grammar and glazed expressions and "you don't need to know that" are the order of the day. Absolutely hopeless!

All of 60 seconds on google.

http://www.gael-linn.ie/learnIrish/learnIrishHome.aspx?Lang=EN

There are bad teachers everywhere, but in every subject not just Irish!

ishmael whale

jank wrote:

.... UTV quote it but dont back up a source. 2nd whats a good return for one is not for another.

It took it as implicit that the Commish's report was the source of the costing of €500 million and the assessment that it was failing to produce a return in terms of students being able to speak Irish which I suggest is the main indicator, no matter what perspective you come from.

To be clear, I have not seen the full Commish's report. It doesn't seem to be available on the internet. But, IIRC, other contributors were on the snailmail circulation list and have not contested the factual accuracy of these two points.

jank wrote:

You would be surprised how may people are able to fumble their way in Irish too but are less likely to attempt mainly because there is a shame factor with speaking it, which I will never understand.

As I said above, we are not operating from year zero. But there has to be recognition that teaching needs to start with the assumption of no knowledge. I can honestly state that I cannot read all the directions in my child's primary school Irish textbook, nor can other people with what I would regard as a reasonable proficiency in Irish. This is not a problem caused by shame in our part in using the language. It is a problem because whoever designs the course can't accept that they failed to teach Irish to the previous generations, and textbooks have to be written with this in mind.

jank wrote:

Each to their own to their own however it is our sport as is Irish is our language. Unique in every sense

Absolutely, but my point is that GAA and the other activities I mentioned thrive because people are genuinely interested in them. Irish doesn't, despite considerable expenditure.

jank wrote:

If one doesnt assume his own native language, a language that is spoken nowewhere else in the whole world, is not an important part of the culture of ireland, then we live in a sad country.

But bear in mind that Irish is not the native (as in born into) language of most of us. It is a part of Irish heritage and we should try to preserve it. But at present all that's to show for the investment is a generation of people who find the very thought of the language to be an irritation. For my own part, I see it as being like that unwanted pet you inherited from your maiden aunt. I have no love for it, but I feel a sense of obligation to do something to look after it.

jank wrote:

Well funded international studies has shown that a child who starts learning 2 languages from the day he/she starts school perform much better.

Fine, but I take it that relates to successfully teaching a child 2 languages from day one, not taking up a considerable portion of the school day making a hames out of teaching the second language. Bear in mind that our school system is not scoring well in international comparisons. A partial explanation must come from the time spent failing to teach Irish. I'd recognise that teaching Irish efficiently would be an improvement on where we are now. Teaching Irish efficiently, and releasing time to be spent on other subjects would be better again.

jank

Fine, but I take it that relates to successfully teaching a child 2 languages from day one, not taking up a considerable portion of the school day making a hames out of teaching the second language.

I was making the point with relation to Gealscoil's!

I can honestly state that I cannot read all the directions in my child's primary school Irish textbook, nor can other people with what I would regard as a reasonable proficiency in Irish

If they had a reasonable ability to read Irish then they would be able to read those directions in other words those people and you dont know much Irish but is that your fault or the teachers fault?

For my own part, I see it as being like that unwanted pet you inherited from your maiden aunt. I have no love for it, but I feel a sense of obligation to do something to look after it.

And by looking after it you just put it down to save the later generations the hastle it causes.

ishmael whale

jank wrote:

I was making the point with relation to Gealscoil's!

And my point is its not realistic that every, or even most, children would attend a Gaelscoil.

The question remains. How do you teach Irish to students who haven't been born into a house where there is any substantial knowledge of the language?

jank wrote:

If they had a reasonable ability to read Irish then they would be able to read those directions in other words those people and you dont know much Irish but is that your fault or the teachers fault?

To avoid a lengthy digression, I'll just get straight to what I see as the nub. Many people, as acknowledged by the Commish, leave school with no real knowledge of Irish. Let's say its because they're all bad students, that they've been exposed to the best possible way of teaching Irish but have refused to sup from the well.

How do you now teach Irish to their children, and how do you improve things by writing directions in their children's textbooks so that they can't read them (unlike, say, the case of introductory French language texts.)

jank wrote:

And by looking after it you just put it down to save the later generations the hastle it causes.

I'm not putting it down. I'm simply acknowledging the Commish's finding that we're spending €500 million and not getting much back. I'm suggesting we might find it possible to have a world in which students leave school with some appreciation of Irish, at less cost than €500 million so that scarce teaching time could be allocated to improve competencies in other areas too.

In fairness to the Commish, he's at least recognising the reality of the situation. In matters of Irish public debate it takes a long time for uncomfortable truths to be recognised, let alone acted on.

Alun

jank wrote:

All of 60 seconds on google.

[sarcasm]Oh thanks for that, I'd never have thought of using Google![/sarcasm]

http://www.gael-linn.ie/learnIrish/learnIrishHome.aspx?Lang=EN

There are bad teachers everywhere, but in every subject not just Irish!

And how exactly am I supposed to infer from the blurb on this site that my experience with this crowd will be any better?

jank

And my point is its not realistic that every, or even most, children would attend a Gaelscoil.

Why not?

How do you teach Irish to students who haven't been born into a house where there is any substantial knowledge of the language

Its the same with any language. Dont see how irish is any different here.

To avoid a lengthy digression, I'll just get straight to what I see as the nub. Many people, as acknowledged by the Commish, leave school with no real knowledge of Irish. Let's say its because they're all bad students, that they've been exposed to the best possible way of teaching Irish but have refused to sup from the well.

Its the typical Irish attitude to their language or ANY language in fact. A lot of europeans speak better english then we do. Shocking but its true.

I'm suggesting we might find it possible to have a world in which students leave school with some appreciation of Irish, at less cost than €500 million so that scarce teaching time could be allocated to improve competencies in other areas too.

So what suggestion do you have in mind. The only thing im seeing is that make Irish not compulsary, which wont solve anything imo.

And how exactly am I supposed to infer from the blurb on this site that my experience with this crowd will be any better

What blurb are you refering to? May I ask where did you look to get leason and with what organisation?

Where there is a will there is a way..........

ishmael whale

jank wrote:

Why not?

As I've said

If you want, we can relabel every primary school in the country a ‘Gaelscoil’. Then we’ll have the same number of teachers only with classes needing to be conducted in a language alien to most of the pupils and their families. Do you think that would be a good foundation for second level education?

You have to consider the cost implications of extending the same favourable Gaelscoil pupil-teacher ratio to other schools - a factor you have not explicitly acknowledged.

jank wrote:

Its the same with any language. Dont see how irish is any different here.

That's sort of my point. Yet we teach Irish with the assumption that there is a prior substantial knowledge of Irish in the family home.

jank wrote:

Its the typical Irish attitude to their language or ANY language in fact. A lot of europeans speak better english then we do. Shocking but its true.

I'm not sure what you are responding to here. I'm simply trying to get you to focus on the key point. Irish is, by and large, being taught to children from homes where there is no substantive knowledge of Irish. Yet it there still seems to be an assumption that parents have a good command of the language, as evidenced by the directions in the text books being written in Irish unlike other languages.

jank wrote:

So what suggestion do you have in mind. The only thing im seeing is that make Irish not compulsary, which wont solve anything imo.

What I have in mind is simply teaching Irish to English speakers in the same way as we teach French. From scratch, with textbooks written in English.

jank

You have to consider the cost implications of extending the same favourable Gaelscoil pupil-teacher ratio to other schools - a factor you have not explicitly acknowledged.

I didnt acknowledge it becuase i didnt see a source of that claim. In fact you are using the pupil to teacher ratio as a get out clause for the advocation of bilingual education. Remember i said

Well funded international studies has shown that a child who starts learning 2 languages from the day he/she starts school perform much better, so its not an Ireland only thing!

which u replied with

Fine, but I take it that relates to successfully teaching a child 2 languages from day one, not taking up a considerable portion of the school day making a hames out of teaching the second language

me

I was making the point with relation to Gealscoil's!

you

And my point is its not realistic that every, or even most, children would attend a Gaelscoil.

i said why not and the first quote above is back to the pupil - teacher ratio which i dismissed ages ago.

see you going around in circles to prove a point which is invalid anyway

have a look at this
http://brj.asu.edu/

plenty of info out there to prove that learnig 2 languages from day one helps the development of children, be it Irish or whatever

Yet we teach Irish with the assumption that there is a prior substantial knowledge of Irish in the family home

do we? so we teach 5 and 6 year old peig?
Exagertion no?

Yet it there still seems to be an assumption that parents have a good command of the language, as evidenced by the directions in the text books being written in Irish unlike other languages.

Id love if you could post up these directions that are just tooooooo hard for anybody but the elite of fluent Irish language speakers to understand.

Maybe those parents would feel it was in their childs interest to brush up on their Irish, rather then blaming a book.

What I have in mind is simply teaching Irish to English speakers in the same way as we teach French. From scratch, with textbooks written in English

Its obvious my sir that you have no clue on the TEACHING of a language.(My whole family with the exception of a few are teachers. My own mother is a lectuter in UCC, teaching the HDip for ..u guessed it Irish teachers)

The first rule of thumb of teaching a language is to teach it through the language, not with an other language. Sure at the start you need to comprimise but as people get more confident it should be no problem. Nowadys people want things spoon fed to them and put on a plate.

Why is it that people go to another country to learn a language?
How did you and I learn english? through a textbook, no the enviroment
Why are the gaelscoils so successful? ah right ( penny drops! )

ishmael whale

Can I point out at the start that you have raised the fact that your family are heavily into the teaching profession. I’m taking that to mean you have no problem with this being within the frame of the debate.

I think you are missing the point by a fair distance. The Commish is simply confirming what is evident anyway. We are spending a squad of money on teaching Irish, but by and large students leave school without being able to speak it. This is not just my assessment. It’s the assessment of a bod with a legal responsibility for the language.

It is therefore simply a fact that current educational practice in Irish teaching is not achieving its goal. So when you claim expertise in the subject on the basis of

yank wrote:

.(My whole family with the exception of a few are teachers. My own mother is a lectuter in UCC, teaching the HDip for ..u guessed it Irish teachers)

its not impressive, because all you are saying is you know all about the present orthodoxy, which the Commish says is failing. Put another way, the current Irish language educational establishment is potentially a large part of the problem. Particularly if, like you, they are sticking their heads in the sand and pretending there's no problem.

The bottom line is you seem to be supporting the status quo – which involves spending €500 million for little benefit. That’s just crazy.

It is simply a fact that Gaelscoil’s have lower pupil teacher ratios than primary schools, which you seem to be denying this when you say.

yank wrote:

I didnt acknowledge it becuase i didnt see a source of that claim.

Are you seriously disputing this?

If you made every school in the country a Gaelscoil, you’d firstly have to spend money to lower the pupil teacher ratios and you would then be faced with the prospect of teaching Irish to people who don’t have any particular background in the language. You’ll internalise within the Gaelscoil sector the same problem. You’re just not dealing with this reality.

Your statement

jank wrote:

Id love if you could post up these directions that are just tooooooo hard for anybody but the elite of fluent Irish language speakers to understand.

is disappointing. You seem to be wedded to denial of the reality that the Irish educational system produces students with no real knowledge of Irish. The Commish is willing to recognise this failure. Why can’t you? Is it because?

yank wrote:

.(My whole family with the exception of a few are teachers. My own mother is a lectuter in UCC, teaching the HDip for ..u guessed it Irish teachers)

jank

Well trying to paint me as one of those "elite" Irish speakers will not work.
Im still waiting for a source about the teacher - pupil ratio in terms of gael scoils and normal primary schools

Im not disputing the fact but its irrelevant as I already stated a number of times that " BILINGUAL SCHOOLS PERFEORM BETTER ANYWAY"
Its an international fact so if the parent to pupil ratio was the same anyway these gael scoils would still be better!!

People attitude has to change. Not the way the language is taught. Thats the easy way out of it, change a few text books put more english in it and there ya go, problem solved.

If we spend 500 million (which is still not credible may I add) or 500 billion Nothing will change unless the attitude of people change towards the language. Yes I accept the commisoners agrument but thats no to say that lets just give up on it!

Gaelscoils arent for "parents who can speak Irish well" crowd there for anybody who wishes to have their child to have a formal bi-lingual primary education.

I have made my points very clear about this matter.

Please let me see what is so hard about these Irish directions that seem too hard. Post up a sentance or something to give me a clue. Seems to me that parents( you?) are blaming the language then themselves.

Kicking the dog because the car wont work!?