Commissioner calls for review of Irish language teaching

ishmael whale

jank wrote:

Im still waiting for a source about the teacher - pupil ratio in terms of gael scoils and normal primary schools

A quick google yields this extract from the Oireachtas debates in 1994. I take it, as you are not disputing the fact, this is enough.

http://www.oireachtas-debates.gov.ie/D/0445/D.0445.199410130012.html
Gaelscoileanna have a more favourable pupil-teacher ratio than ordinary primary schools. …In addition to the normal capitation grant, gaelscoileanna are allocated a bonus payment based on 50 per cent of the capitation grant. …Where management authorities of gaelscoileanna have no suitable sites, or [1911] where existing school buildings are not available, full cost grants are provided for suitable sites and permanent accommodation. …The position in ordinary schools is that school authorities must provide the site, while grant-aid for the school building varies between 85 per cent and 95 per cent.

Im not disputing the fact but its irrelevant

The relevance is to show that we could not put every child into a Gaelscoil unless we spent more money on education.

Its an international fact so if the parent to pupil ratio was the same anyway these gael scoils would still be better!!

We don’t know this. We might know that usually teaching two languages to primary children usually yields benefits. But Irish is on the curriculum on all primary schools. Gaelscoils do better, and have more teachers. Refusing to acknowledge this fact is simply a refusal to engage in the debate.

People attitude has to change. Not the way the language is taught.

Peoples attitudes have to change, all right. If Irish language enthusiasts are serious about promoting the language they have to listen to their target audience – English speakers. Spending €500 million for no benefit is simply indefensible, no vested interest can expect that situation to continue.

Thats the easy way out of it, change a few text books put more english in it and there ya go, problem solved.

What’s wrong with solving the problem? Do you think we were put on this Earth to suffer? Are you trying to preserve 1940’s style Irish Catholicism as well as the language?

If we spend 500 million (which is still not credible may I add) .

OK, my figure comes from the Commish. What’s your figure?

Nothing will change unless the attitude of people change towards the language. Yes I accept the commisoners agrument but thats no to say that lets just give up on it!

The Commish simply seems to be saying that we need to review how Irish is taught. However you say you don’t want to change the way its taught. You simply seem to be backing the status quo because you equate any change with the current structure of Irish language policy as an attack on the language itself. That’s an incredibly limited view of the issue.

Please let me see what is so hard about these Irish directions that seem too hard. …seems to me that parents( you?) are blaming the language then themselves. .

What’s the point in me posting up a sentence, explaining that I can’t understand it only to have you respond “Me and me Ma who teaches Irish teachers can read it fine, what’s your problem.”

The problem is you need to listen to people outside of the Irish speaking fraternity if you want to reach them. I don’t have these concerns about how Irish schools teach French. We just need to teach Irish in the same way – as a foreign language would be taught.

jank

Are you trying to preserve 1940’s style Irish Catholicism as well as the language?

What the hell does religion to do with the language????

It seems to me that you have a very blinkered and sterotypicial view on Irish speakers as in they arebackward, dont think about the future, conserviate etc......and on that note im leaving this debate because all it is to you is a rant against Irish, while trying to legitimise the debate based on findings by the commsioner ( That are'nt even released yet in the public domain ).
[ps]

What’s the point in me posting up a sentence, explaining that I can’t understand it only to have you respond “Me and me Ma who teaches Irish teachers can read it fine, what’s your problem.”

Id like to see if its a hard sentence to understand or more like the "Barry like jam" type of sentence! Agiain I lioke your week attempt to try and make us into some sort of "elite"! Irish is taught to every child in this country some elite that is.

But since your refusing im out of here (partly due to me finishing my exam and going out on the tear)

ishmael whale

jank wrote:

It seems to me that you have a very blinkered and sterotypicial view on Irish speakers as in they arebackward, dont think about the future, conserviate etc......and on that note im leaving this debate because all it is to you is a rant against Irish, while trying to legitimise the debate based on findings by the commsioner ( That are'nt even released yet in the public domain ).

Clearly I have said none of these things. I have simply agreed from media coverage of the release of the Commish's report that we're spending a wad of cash and getting little in return, and suggested that this needs attention.

You are attempting to present this as stereotypical criticism of the Irish language, presumably because you are unable to refute the point that a fair proportion of the resources devoted to Irish education are achieving very little.

jank wrote:

Id like to see if its a hard sentence to understand or more like the "Barry like jam" type of sentence! Agiain I lioke your week attempt to try and make us into some sort of "elite"! Irish is taught to every child in this country some elite that is.

I direct you to the very first post in this thread.

http://www.breakingnews.ie/2005/03/15/story193743.html
Commissioner calls for review of Irish language teaching
The Irish Language Commissioner has reportedly called for a review of how Irish is taught in primary and secondary schools. Reports this morning said Sean O'Cuirreain had advised that such a review was essential if the State was truly committed to promoting the Irish language.

The advice is contained in Mr O'Cuirreain's first annual report as Irish Language Commissioner. This morning's reports said the document highlighted the fact that many pupils haven't even attained basic fluency in Irish despite being taught the language for 13 years.

Irish is on the curriculum of every child, but many leave school without any substantial command of the language. People who have a command of the language may not appreciate the problems this presents when those students in turn become parents. You certainly don't seem to.

jank wrote:

But since your refusing im out of here (partly due to me finishing my exam and going out on the tear)

Sorry, I hate to delay your boozing, but I think I missed your explanation of why its a good idea to go on spending €500 million to achive very little.

ishmael whale

jank wrote:

Id like to see if its a hard sentence to understand or more like the "Barry like jam" type of sentence!

I hate leaving a point hanging. Just to give a flavour, these are extracts from ‘Inis Dom’, the primary school Irish text that I’m aware of. It seems to be the text in use in many primary school, as any parent I’ve discussed this with knows of it.

To give context, the basic English reader in use for, say, infants opens with a section that explains to parents how they should use the text e.g. encouraging the child to discuss what’s happening in pictures, as well as them just reading whatever is printed on the page. Hunky dory, any parent knows what they’re supposed to be doing.

In ‘Inis Dom’ the equivalent text is in Irish. Here’s a few extracts, along with what sense I can make of them. I’m not saying these directions are hard for someone with good Irish, but someone with mediocre Irish is lost.

Reamhra
Comhrá ranga, comhrá beírte, cleachtaí éisteacha, séalta, dramaí, dánta taitneamhacha, cluichi cainte, cleachtai sodheanta, tomhais, rabhloga – tá said go leir sa leabhar seo. ….

I can make out here the author is telling us all of the things that are in the book (‘sa leabhar seo’) but, apart from a few individual words namely ‘comhra’ lesson?, ‘cainte’ talk, I can’t actually tell what this sentence is saying. For example, I have no idea what dánta taitneamhacha, cluichi, sodheanta, tomhais or rabhloga are supposed to mean.

Sna ceachtanna athbhreithnithe deantar dul siar ar a bhfuil deanta ag an rang trí mhean na scealaiochta is na dramaiochta…..

He’s telling us something about things being done in class ‘a bhfuil deanta ag an rang’ but what those things are, and whether we should be taking any interest in them, I just don’t know.

Meadóidh sin, go bhfios dom, a sult is a suim sna scealta ceanna….

I might as well be looking down a manhole.

I hope this doesn’t provoke one of those dumb responses where someone tells me I must know what these sentences are saying. I don’t. I got a ‘C’ in pass Irish in the course of the last century, and I doubt if I could have read these sentences then let alone now.

tintinr35

first just wanna make it clear that i have no teaching experiance at all and at school was only average at irish, but........
i now work part time in a school bookshop and all the primary irish books up to 2nd class in the revised ciriculum(not spelled right) are little more than colouring books, how can the language be thought properly when the resources are unavailable.

elvenscout742

YAY! This is most definitely good news, that they are at least accepting that what they are doing is folly. Now they just have to stop trying. Or at least try something different. And make Irish as optional as any other unimportant subject.

Teaching children a second language before they know what a noun is! Pfeh, 'tis sheer folly!

simu

elvenscout742 wrote:

Teaching children a second language before they know what a noun is! Pfeh, 'tis sheer folly!

Not really - it can be done. Young kids pick up languages very easily but this if you teach them by talking to them and playing with them in the language and getting them to sing in it and so on. The filling in blanks in a workbook approach isn't great for younger kids, though.

ArthurDent

jank wrote:

Well trying to paint me as one of those "elite" Irish speakers will not work.
Im still waiting for a source about the teacher - pupil ratio in terms of gael scoils and normal primary schools

Here ya go, after 2 teachers the numbers for appointment of staff and retention of staff are lower in Gaelscoileanna and Gaelteacht schools up to 10 teachers ( majority of schools fit into this category). This will lead to a lower ratio of pupils to staff in Gael scoileanna with more the two teachers, but less that 11. See appendices C&D
http://www.into.ie/downloads/des_circulars/2005/pc15_05.doc

And for the record I have no problem with Irish or learning through the medium of Irish, just think there should be a level playing field.

elvenscout742

simu wrote:

Not really - it can be done. Young kids pick up languages very easily but this if you teach them by talking to them and playing with them in the language and getting them to sing in it and so on. The filling in blanks in a workbook approach isn't great for younger kids, though.

Well, if they waited 'yil children are a bit older and taught it to them the way they teach French, German, etc., IMO, 'twould be better. I'm better at French after only four years, and even Japanese after only one year, than I ever was at Irish, even after ten years.

spudington16

elvenscout742 wrote:

YAY! This is most definitely good news, that they are at least accepting that what they are doing is folly. Now they just have to stop trying. Or at least try something different. And make Irish as optional as any other unimportant subject.

Teaching children a second language before they know what a noun is! Pfeh, 'tis sheer folly!

As great as I'm sure your understanding of the development of young children is, Elvenscout742 , I think you're off your head. And where do you get the right to call it "folly"? Surely that's just your opinion because you don't like the subject personally. Irish is most certainly not "unimportant2; if we don't nourish it now because of the laziness of narrow-minded people like yourself, Gaeilge could die out. Where's your Irish Pride? The bread, I mean. Also you should be proud of your heritage. :mad:

simu

elvenscout742 wrote:

Well, if they waited 'yil children are a bit older and taught it to them the way they teach French, German, etc., IMO, 'twould be better. I'm better at French after only four years, and even Japanese after only one year, than I ever was at Irish, even after ten years.

Maybe although I have to say as a French speaker and a holder of a degree in French, the average standard of a LC student of French is fairly dismal. Language teaching in Irish schools (and in other countries too, I suspect) is woefully inefficient.

Sand

Maybe although I have to say as a French speaker and a holder of a degree in French, the average standard of a LC student of French is fairly dismal. Language teaching in Irish schools (and in other countries too, I suspect) is woefully inefficient.

Seeing as English is the international language, foreign languages arent terribly relevant though. Gaelic is even less so, but everyones afraid to say it.

When it is relevant, people will learn the language. A friend of mine, who is not interested in languages, and didnt display any gift for them previously became determined to move abroad and did a course in German in his spare time, and did those tapes on his way to work on the bus. Hes currently living and working in Zurich for a year now and seems to be a least have a very strong grasp of the language if not downright fluent.

elvenscout742

spudington16 wrote:

As great as I'm sure your understanding of the development of young children is, Elvenscout742 , I think you're off your head. And where do you get the right to call it "folly"? Surely that's just your opinion because you don't like the subject personally. Irish is most certainly not "unimportant2; if we don't nourish it now because of the laziness of narrow-minded people like yourself, Gaeilge could die out. Where's your Irish Pride? The bread, I mean. Also you should be proud of your heritage. :mad:

No, you be proud of your heritage. I'll be proud of my own personal achievements. And, not to honk my own horn but to defend myself against an ignorant troll, I have done some deal of study in the field of language acquisition. My culture has nothing to do with the Irish language, which, in my opinion, is not as nice a language as Japanese or Korean.

Teaching something in an inefficient manner is folly. I am not going to take that back. Yes, I despise Irish, but that is due largely to the fact that I was not taught it properly. I am not narrow-minded - if you want to keep your pretentious little "culture" alive, good for you. But if that culture supports imperialism and tries to force itself on everyone based on nothing more than race, then it should be discarded.

elvenscout742

simu wrote:

Maybe although I have to say as a French speaker and a holder of a degree in French, the average standard of a LC student of French is fairly dismal. Language teaching in Irish schools (and in other countries too, I suspect) is woefully inefficient.

Well, you may be right about LC French standards, but it's one of my best subjects, and, while they do not teach it especially well, it is still far better than the way they teach Irish.

As I hear, other countries are much better at teaching languages than us native English speaking nations.

Ever gone to Germany, France or Spain? They all speak English

simu

elvenscout742 wrote:

Ever gone to Germany, France or Spain? They all speak English

In France? Everyone can mangle a phrase or two of English, maybe, but it would be impossible to have a proper conversation with many.

When it is relevant, people will learn the language. A friend of mine, who is not interested in languages, and didnt display any gift for them previously became determined to move abroad and did a course in German in his spare time, and did those tapes on his way to work on the bus. Hes currently living and working in Zurich for a year now and seems to be a least have a very strong grasp of the language if not downright fluent.

It's the same for every subject. People learn it quickly and well if they're interested. Most pupils in schools have little interest in their subjects and it's only when exams beckon that they start to learn stuff. In the meantime, the minority of pupils who have an interest in a given subject are bored to death as the teacher has to go over the basics again and again for those too lazy/indifferent to learn them. Yet, we have this idea (and one that I find pretty good, in principle) that even after they have learned the essential basics (3 r's) etc, teenagers should stay in education for a few more years and learn more about other subjects so that they have basic knowledge of quite a variety of subjects, most of which they will not use in their professional lives. In such a context, I don't see having Irish on the curriculum as being all that strange. You could get rid of it as a compulsary topic at LC level but then, kids would just be cramming their heads full of some other subject and ready to forget that the second exams were over. In brief, I think that our education system is a bit of a mess and that it needs change on a far more fundamental level.

And seeing as this is the politics board:

People get very polarised about Irish on boards but actually, I don't think any party is going to suggest taking it off the LC course anytime soon beacuse although the population at large could not be said to be all that passionate about it, many people do seem to have some weird sort of affection for it (they would love their kids to speak it but couldn't be arsed themselves etc).

ishmael whale

Indeed, and in truth there’s nothing to be gained by pretending that there isn’t a gap between the perceptions of Irish language activists and others both in the importance to be assigned to the language and in where in should feature in Government policy.

In an attempt to find some common ground, I think it is fair to say that English speakers have to recognise that Irish is a part of our heritage and it is right that the State should seek to preserve and even promote its use.
On the other hand, Irish language activists have to admit their failure to communicate their enthusiasm and acknowledge a need for a change in approach to how the language is promoted, mindful that any element of compulsion will breed resistance. They need to engage with English speakers, not decry their attitude to the language. Many Irish people have gone and will go through their lives without using the language, so assuming it to be an essential part of Irish culture and life is simply not sensible.

As regards education, as the earlier posts in this thread point out, our children do not perform particularly well in international comparisons. But, taking the Commish’s figures, part of the problem is Irish consumes a significant portion of teaching resources. And I’m not sure it has anything to do with whether or not the language is taken at second level. The damage may well be done at primary level, where Irish takes up a fair portion of the syllabus.
That said I’m not trying to simply the topic – and in principle I accept that a primary school curriculum where all subjects, including Irish, were well thought would be an improvement on the present situation.

In return, I’d appreciate if other contributors would avoid the old lay about two languages at an earlier stage being great for later education. That may be the theory, but that’s simply not the Irish experience. We teach all our primary children two languages, and their educational levels are mediocre by international comparison. The Gaelscoil example is complicated because of their higher pupil teacher ratios and higher resourcing.

In an attempt to conclude, can people generally accept that we need to make provision for Irish, with the objective that everyone should leave school having had some exposure to it, but not at the expense of their wider education.

elvenscout742

Well, don't get me started on the government's need to preserve this so-called "Irish culture". Most other aspects of Irish culture are given less attention, and sometimes completely ignored, while the language (whose words seem to come mainly from English) is treated as the be-all and end-all of what it means to be Irish.

ishmael whale

I agree that the time has come to do away with nutty ideas like insisting that Teachers and Gardai pass a proficiency test, which reasonable people accept does not qualify them to actually transact business in Irish. This proficiency test can only serve as a barrier to recruitment. (Yes, I am aware that recently support services for teachers trained abroad to learn Irish have improved and 80% now pass the proficiency test. That doesn’t explain why the test is necessary in the first place, or mean that some perfectly competent foreign teachers might be encouraged to apply if the test wasn’t there. It’s like French schools obliging you to recognise a good claret blindfold.)

Equally, rather than the current situation where public bodies are now being obliged to translate all their published material into Irish, we should be rowing back on the weird situation that the Irish text of the constitution is deemed to take precedence over the English if there is a conflict between the two. Ditto why are we pursuing the question of making Irish an EU official language when the language of the vast bulk of domestic political debate is English? These are really just examples of the way in which current Irish language policy is still based on denial of reality. It’s like watching a climber scratch desperately at the cliff face as they fall to their doom, determined to leave a mark of their passing.

But it really doesn’t have to be like this. Those of us (like myself) who see the Irish language as one of the backward and negative things that stunted our national development have to see past the work of the fools who have taken things to this pass and the people who feel they have to defend them.

If we take the stupidity of current policy out of the picture, you are simply left with the language. Its not unreasonable that Irish schoolchildren should be given some exposure to it. But €500 million seems a bit much to be spending out of €6.6 billion to achieve that simple objective.

simu

elvenscout742 wrote:

Well, don't get me started on the government's need to preserve this so-called "Irish culture". Most other aspects of Irish culture are given less attention, and sometimes completely ignored, while the language (whose words seem to come mainly from English) is treated as the be-all and end-all of what it means to be Irish.

It's not really, though - it gets a lot of lip-service and money thrown at it but that money is often badly-spent. What are these government-ignored aspects of Irish culture you speak of?

And who said it was the be all and end all of being Irish? Provide sources!

Oh, and the words of Irish come mainly from English? That is untrue - it may have borrowed some from English in recent times but it's the same for many other languages however look at any dictionary and you'll see that most of the vocabulary is of non-English origin.

Macka

About ****ing time. I used to be good at Irish but the way that it is taught in Secondary school destroyed me. I had a higher level of Irish in 6th class than I do now. I've always believed that as Irish people we should be able to speak basic Irish at least. So I'd say the best course of action is to leave Irish compulsory for primary school and make it optional for secondary. I think it's recognised as a language by the E.U. so if it may be a nice little loophole into college if you kept it up in secondary school instead of having to take another language aswell. It's way too confusing doing two subjects at the same time

Sand

People get very polarised about Irish on boards but actually, I don't think any party is going to suggest taking it off the LC course anytime soon beacuse although the population at large could not be said to be all that passionate about it, many people do seem to have some weird sort of affection for it (they would love their kids to speak it but couldn't be arsed themselves etc).

Yeah but thats down to political calculation. Theres no votes in dropping gaelic. Even if the government made it optional on the grounds that only those intersted enough to want to pursue it are going to learn it youd have the opposition, a risen people, taking the stand one after the other to establish firmly their pro-gaelic credentials with the people, castigating this assault on the Irish culture, perhaps even throwing in a few words they memorised for dramatic effect, was it for this that Padraig Pearse died and so on and so forth.

Its the same reason the parties havent just underlined they dont give a toss about Northern Ireland. There is no votes in it, even though the majority of Irish people dont give a toss about Northern Ireland.

All rubbish, and they couldnt give a toss themselves, but this is the class of politicans we have, and of course this is the class of electorate that we have that they respond to base nationalist urges like this. As you said yourself, the twits who cant speak a word of gaelic themselves but are near violently opposed to any steps taken to push it to one side, like their lives were terribly scarred by their lack of Gaelic, when the basic lack of reading, writing and maths is a far more pressing concern.

It's the same for every subject. People learn it quickly and well if they're interested. Most pupils in schools have little interest in their subjects and it's only when exams beckon that they start to learn stuff.

Exactly, given the sheer waste of resources represented by 500 million going into the education system to teach a language that practically everyone coming out the other side is basically unable to speak, then its clear theres no interest to learn it.

simu

Sand wrote:

Exactly, given the sheer waste of resources represented by 500 million going into the education system to teach a language that practically everyone coming out the other side is basically unable to speak, then its clear theres no interest to learn it.

Heh, but a lot of parents still want their kids to do it - the kids' opinions don't count for much.

elvenscout742

simu wrote:

It's not really, though - it gets a lot of lip-service and money thrown at it but that money is often badly-spent. What are these government-ignored aspects of Irish culture you speak of?

And who said it was the be all and end all of being Irish? Provide sources!

Oh, and the words of Irish come mainly from English? That is untrue - it may have borrowed some from English in recent times but it's the same for many other languages however look at any dictionary and you'll see that most of the vocabulary is of non-English origin.

Well, I don't see the stories of Lugh and the Dagda being taught in schools.

I don't know if anyone actually said those exact words, but you have to admit that that does seem to be how many people feel. All these Gaeltóirí who are really good at Gaeilge in school who don't know anything about, say, Irish mythology or traditional Irish music say things like "Oh, well they're not important". And the Irish language is!?

You may be right about the last point, I'm not entirely sure... I'm probably just angry at the number of etymological ignoramuses I've met who think that the English "be" comes from "bí", and not the other way round.

simu

elvenscout742 wrote:

Well, I don't see the stories of Lugh and the Dagda being taught in schools.

I don't know if anyone actually said those exact words, but you have to admit that that does seem to be how many people feel. All these Gaeltóirí who are really good at Gaeilge in school who don't know anything about, say, Irish mythology or traditional Irish music say things like "Oh, well they're not important". And the Irish language is!?

I did some Irish mythology in primary school - in my time, you'd do some myths first, then history. Of course, maybe this has changed now. As for Irish speakers who say those things aren't important - they're being silly but I don't think being dismissive of trad music and mythology is exclusive to Irish speakers and not all Irish speakers feel this way.

You may be right about the last point, I'm not entirely sure... I'm probably just angry at the number of etymological ignoramuses I've met who think that the English "be" comes from "bí", and not the other way round.

Eh, neither language borowed that from the other - they're both of Indo-European origin. (Indo-European is the ancestor language of Irish, English and most other European languages).

elvenscout742

simu wrote:

I did some Irish mythology in primary school - in my time, you'd do some myths first, then history. Of course, maybe this has changed now. As for Irish speakers who say those things aren't important - they're being silly but I don't think being dismissive of trad music and mythology is exclusive to Irish speakers and not all Irish speakers feel this way.

Oh, well, sure, everyone knows about "how Cú Chulainn got his name" and "the Salmon of Knowledge", but most Irish in my experience would not even know what the Tuatha Dé Danann or Balór Drochshúile are. I know some Gaeltóir that aren't so bad, and some non-Gaeltóir who are almost as bad as those Irish speakers.

simu wrote:

Eh, neither language borowed that from the other - they're both of Indo-European origin. (Indo-European is the ancestor language of Irish, English and most other European languages).

I know of Indo-European, and what you're saying would hold up... but for the fact that Oxford says that the Old English (beon; pronounced rather differently to both the Irish and Modern English) was formed from bit of other verbs, and other IE languages don't seem to share it.

Though I wouldn't mind if everyone thought what you say. It's better than to think, for some nonsensical reason, that English would borrow such a word from Irish.

NG

how about a review on the way leaving cert papers attempted through Irish are marked does a person deserve extra points because he or she happens to come from Ring or because mammy and daddy had the foresight to send them to a gealscoil.
i know many parents who have placed their children in all irish secondary schools for this reason alone.
also this notion that Irish is to the core of our heritage is ludicrious. Compare Joyce, Yeats, G.B. Shaw, and Synge with the 'best' modern irish literature like Peig and Fiche bliain ag fas no contest. yet which will my kids learn about.
my opinion is a simple one: in low infants in primary school start with the alphabet like you do when learning any language then drill the kids for the next 7 years in basic oral skills (i don't see the need for irish oral skills but i am willing to compromise) and then from the first day of first year make the languge optional making class sizes smaller and hopfully improve the language's
future chances.

spudington16

elvenscout742 wrote:

And make Irish as optional as any other unimportant subject.

What classifies Irish as an "unimportant subject"? Surely our national language deserves better than to be called that?

simu

elvenscout742 wrote:

Oh, well, sure, everyone knows about "how Cú Chulainn got his name" and "the Salmon of Knowledge", but most Irish in my experience would not even know what the Tuatha Dé Danann or Balór Drochshúile are. I know some Gaeltóir that aren't so bad, and some non-Gaeltóir who are almost as bad as those Irish speakers.

I guess but I suppose they can't do the whole lot. It might be an idea to do more mythology in schools, though - they could use the stories for reading comprehension and so on and explain the basic ideas behind mythology. However, the govt does support many other aspects of Irish culture - theatre, music, sport, literature and so on.

I know of Indo-European, and what you're saying would hold up... but for the fact that Oxford says that the Old English (beon; pronounced rather differently to both the Irish and Modern English) was formed from bit of other verbs, and other IE languages don't seem to share it.

Well, from googling, it would appear that béon is mix of three different Indo-European verbs. It's pretty hard to find info on this stuff online but anyway, a quick glance at how the verb "bí" is conjugated in (modern) Irish shows that it is completely different to how the verb "to be" is conjugated in English. See here!.

Maybe it's just a coincidence that bí and to be sound so similar or maybe they're a rare remaining similarity between languages that have diverged millenia ago - I don't know.

(Hey, there's always the languages forum to discuss stuff like this in more detail )

Though I wouldn't mind if everyone thought what you say. It's better than to think, for some nonsensical reason, that English would borrow such a word from Irish.

Nah, twould be better if people didn't jump to any conclusions at all - etymology is very tricky.

elvenscout742

simu wrote:

I guess but I suppose they can't do the whole lot. It might be an idea to do more mythology in schools, though - they could use the stories for reading comprehension and so on and explain the basic ideas behind mythology. However, the govt does support many other aspects of Irish culture - theatre, music, sport, literature and so on.

Well, I'm just annoyed by the hypocrite nationalists who ridicule me for not appreciating the Irish language who couldn't come close to beating me in a quiz on Celtic mythology.

Well, from googling, it would appear that béon is mix of three different Indo-European verbs. It's pretty hard to find info on this stuff online but anyway, a quick glance at how the verb "bí" is conjugated in (modern) Irish shows that it is completely different to how the verb "to be" is conjugated in English. See here!.

Maybe it's just a coincidence that bí and to be sound so similar or maybe they're a rare remaining similarity between languages that have diverged millenia ago - I don't know.

I'm pretty sure the standard Irish "Bí" is a mish-mash of various regional dialects of the verb. I think the "bí", "bíonn", "bhí", etc. forms might be a modern version derived from the English. BTW, the Modern English "Be" is not like the Old English "Beon" as it has drawn a number of its forms since 1066 from Italic equivalents.

Nah, twould be better if people didn't jump to any conclusions at all - etymology is very tricky.

Well, you're not going to stop ol' spudington16 there from jumping to such conclusions based on a biased, nationalistic ideology.

ishmael whale

From the free part of the Irish Times. Looks like some people are voting with their feet.

http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/front/2005/0607/3012622140HM1IRISHEXAM.html
Concern over large increase in pupils opting out of Irish
The number of students opting out of Irish in the Junior and Leaving Cert exams has increased by more than 400 per cent in the past decade, new figures show. Seán Flynn, Education Editor reports.

The inspectorate of the Department of Education and Science has ordered a review of the operation of the scheme amid concern that it is being abused.
Since 1994, the number of second-level students seeking an exemption in Irish has increased from just over 2 per cent to over 10 per cent. While some of this increase is due to the increasing number of foreign nationals in Irish schools, the department says "the increasing levels of exemptions is giving cause for concern".

One senior education figure complained that "exemptions are being given out very freely in some schools. We are not talking about kids with learning difficulties or immigrants, but pupils who cannot be bothered to take Irish".
Concerns have also been raised that students in some fee-paying schools are gaining the exemption easily, opting out of Irish and concentrating on other subjects.

Students must meet certain conditions to secure an exemption from taking Irish as a Junior and Leaving Cert subject.

These conditions include;
Evidence that a student has been living abroad until the age of 11;
Foreign nationality;
Learning difficulties.

Only 1,719 students secured an exemption in 1994 compared to 6,588 last year. Of these, over 2,400 students cite learning difficulties in order to gain an exemption. In addition, 322 exemptions were awarded for unspecified reasons. Schools have the authority to award students an exemption in Irish.

In his report for 2001-2004, chief inspector Éamonn Stack says a new circular detailing how students should qualify for an exemption is being prepared. The popularity of higher-level Irish has declined dramatically. Last year, only 14,000 students took higher level at Leaving Cert level. More than 35,000 took either ordinary level or foundation level Irish. By comparison, over 15,000 took higher level French.