Commissioner calls for review of Irish language teaching

bonkey

I'm now just waiting till someone starts using those figures to show that the huge increase isnt' caused by Irish people deserting Irish, but rather all them danged for-ig-eners coming here and threatening our culture.

I'd also say that the increase in the "learning difficulties" portion may not be purely just from an "I don't want to learn it" basis.

Having said all of that, I agree that the system needs reform. Teach it properly, or not at all. Anything else is wasting students' time and taxpayers' money.

jc

johnnyc

i hate irish if i go the gardas they are forced to learn irish and the teacher down with the irish nazis. the politicans should understand that we should have choices people who are not good at irish could be good at other subjects. i hate the rubbish we got about the irish language being our identity from our teachers and principles. i haven't a word of irish if i had to blame somebody it would be the primary school teachers. we are spending 500 million on irish. if they really want to improve irish they should be making it fun instead of being a tedious subject. make the parent more involed in the helping to teach the children. theres too much emphasis on the written irish instead of the spoken irish. all this should happen at primary level. At secondary level they should make irish optional after the junior cert.

ishmael whale

Meanwhile, you just can't beat making a grand gesture instead of addressing the issue of what place the language might really have in our lives.

http://www.unison.ie/irish_independent/stories.php3?ca=9&si=1411080&issue_id=12578

Deal on Irish as working EU language nears final agreement

Tuesday June 7th 2005
IRISH could soon be a working language of the European Union, as Irish diplomats look likely to secure an historic deal on the issue this week.
After a final round of discussions, Irish officials anticipate getting final clearance from the ambassadors of all 25 EU countries in the coming days.
This would only leave Foreign Ministers to sign off on the deal at their next meeting, an action now considered a formality.

Irish is one of the 21 EU Treaty languages at present, but doesn't have the status of an official language. This means that while Treaties are translated into Irish or legal cases can be taken through Irish before the European Courts, the language cannot be used at meetings of the European institutions.

"Even though there were diplomatic difficulties, I always expected this. I am very confident everything was done to get Irish as a working language," said the West MEP, Sean O Neachtain, a native speaker of Irish. He added that it will put Irish in its correct position and would make it easier for many Irish people to get jobs in the EU institutions, since applicants can claim Irish, or English, as a second working language.

A separate plan to give some rights to Catalan, Basque and Galician languages - all very widely spoken regional languages in Spain - is also set for agreement soon.

But unlike Irish, these languages do not have the same Treaty status within the EU, with the Spanish Government agreeing to pay for translation and interpretation costs as well.

The Irish proposal would cost the EU central exchequer just €3.6m per year, according to estimates. It would also allow for MEPs to address the Parliament in Irish and for Ministers to speak Irish at meetings too.

simu

I'm pretty sure the standard Irish "Bí" is a mish-mash of various regional dialects of the verb.

No - it's the same in all dialects although the synthetic forms (verb and pronoun fused in one word e.g. bhíos - I was) are more commonly used in Munster, the analytic forms (verb and pronoun seperate e.g. bhí mé - I was) in other areas. What are your reasons for thinking otherwise? Where does this "pretty sure" of yours come from?

I think the "bí", "bíonn", "bhí", etc. forms might be a modern version derived from the English. BTW, the Modern English "Be" is not like the Old English "Beon" as it has drawn a number of its forms since 1066 from Italic equivalents.

Well, when do you think this derivation took place? And why is this theory never mentioned in any serious books on linguistics? I mean, there are examples of all these forms extant in Old Irish texts.

For example:

Boí Óengus in n-aidchi n-aili inna chotlud. - Aengus was... from Aislinge Óenguso
dated 700-800 AD
Text here

Or in the Táin:

In tan ro m-boí cách oc gním a sosta, ro scáig dóib-seom tuga a sosta & fune a m-bíd. In tan ro m-boí cách oc praind, ro scáig praind dóib-seom h-i suidiu, & ro bátár a cruti ocaó n-airfitiud.

Text here

Translation:

When the others were making their shelters, the Gailióin had already finished thatching their shelters and cooking their food. When the rest were eating, they had already finished their meal and their harpers were playing to them.

Here

Boí gives the modern bhí (was), bátar gives the modern bhíodar (they were).

Twould take me longer to find old versions of bíonn, bí etc because they tend to pop up less frequently in narratives like these but they do exist.

Anyway, pedantry aside, it's all well and good making attempts at figuring out the origins of words in various languages but if you decide to base your assumptions purely on your own hunches (I have yet to see you provide any proof of English origins for these words apart from the fact that they look similar) and ignore research and textual evidence, aren't you behaving in the same way as those who refuse to see the merits of mythology or whatever other subjects you take interest in?

elvenscout742

Okay then - you're right.

You see: I just did something those nazis could never do.

But, for the record, my assumption was not based on the fact that "they look similar", but rather "they sound exactly the same".

And all the dialects use the same verb now.

simu

elvenscout742 wrote:

Okay then - you're right.

You see: I just did something those nazis could never do.

Fair enough - one thing though, if they're still teenagers maybe it's just a phase and they'll grow out of it. I hope. (No need for Nuremberg trialls yet:))

And all the dialects use the same verb now.

And they have as far back as there are records. As in, it was used by uneducated native speaker peasants who never came in contact with the caighdeán (20th century standardised Irish) - there are recordings and transcriptions of these. (Although the caighdeán simplifies by leaving some varieties out it's all the same verb).

elvenscout742

Well, I don't really know, and I think I've made it quite clear that I have no interest in the Irish language, so I'm going to stop arguing now.

*YAWN* I'm tired.

ishmael whale

The cracks keep appearing. But, what the hey, we can paper over them if we make Irish an official EU language, translate the Co Waterford roads plan, and eradicate Dingle as a placename.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2005/0610/irish.html
Report issued on Gaeltacht school Irish levels
June 10, 2005 22:21
A major study of Gaeltacht schools has found that 10% of their pupils are leaving school with little or no Irish. The report, which was commissioned by the Educational Council for Gaeltacht schools, says the schools are facing significant difficulties recruiting Irish speaking teachers, and in most, English is now the main conversational language among pupils.
The study found that a quarter of pupils leaving Gaeltacht primary schools had only a reasonable level of Irish. At Leaving Certificate level 18% had a reasonable level and 10% had little or no Irish. The statistics include schools in Gaeltacht areas where Irish is no longer a spoken language, and include some schools that no longer teach through the medium of Irish.
However, the figures show that even in areas where Irish is still the main spoken language 14% of 6th class primary pupils and 7% of Leaving Cert students are not regarded as having fluent or good Irish. The report has recommended a redefinition of what it means to be a Gaeltacht school as well as more support for those schools.

toiletduck

Well it's been made an offical language of the E.U. http://www.rte.ie/news/2005/0613/irishlanguage.html

it's going to cost e3.5 million a year for the translators etc.
[sarcasm] well that money sure isn't being wasted! [/sarcasm]

jank

it's going to cost e3.5 million a year for the translators etc.

Well 30 Irish translators will be given work, looks like a good deal imo since ireland already contribute to the language fund regardless Irish is "offical" or not.

Absolutly great decision imo.

murphaph

3.5 mil is a drop in the ocean and more probably gets wasted on bubbly in Brussels but it'll do fcuk all for Irish which is doomed unless they completely overhaul the way it's forced upon young people from an early age, often by evil 'teachers' who only got a job 'teaching' because they speak a language most have no interest in. I'm an english speaker. I probably have english ancestry (I have no idea and don't care if I do) like many of us in Ireland. I don't mind some of my taxes funding real programmes that will aid Irish as a living part of history but these bullsh!t measures (road signs, EU official status etc.) make no real difference and they won't tackle the big problem of 'teaching' style because that would upset too many in INTO/ASTI.

ishmael whale

jank wrote:

Well 30 Irish translators will be given work, looks like a good deal imo since ireland already contribute to the language fund regardless Irish is "offical" or not.

With the official language act placing an obligation on public bodies to translate all publications into Irish there's hardly a shortage of employment for Irish translators. However, its great to see you back on the thread after your sudden departure. Hope the exams went well.

Now would you like to explain to us why its a good idea to go on spending €500 million to achieve very little?

ishmael whale

Another visionary step. Clearly the plan is once we spend as much money as we possibly can on Irish language related initiatives everything will be alright.

http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/front/2005/0620/3280425436HM1IRISH.html
Ó Cuív's lanuage Act set to eat into public body budgets
Liam Reid, Political Reporter

The Government is finalising new regulations that will force 642 public bodies in future to produce Irish versions of all their advertisements in a move that will costs millions of euro a year.

Aer Lingus, which has one of the biggest advertising budgets in the State, has expressed serious concern, saying the provision was not something with which it can live.

Minister for Gaeltacht Affairs Éamon Ó Cuív has confirmed to The Irish Times that he plans to introduce the regulations under the Official Languages Act. The bodies will include all Government departments. Many already adhere to the requirement, however semi-States and companies such as Irish Rail, Dublin Bus and the ESB will also be obliged to do so.

elvenscout742

Oh, well at least we know our money is being well spent :rolleyes: .

Seriously, though, why does it seem to me like Irish is the linguistic equivalent of a corpse with strings on it and a puppeteer that makes it dance?

Cantonese is alive. Sanskrit is dead. Irish is undead. :eek:

elvenscout742

Wait... 30 translators!?

Can someone give me some idea of how much work they're doing for their €116,666.66666666666 (etc. )?

Uthur

This is a free country so people should always be given a choice IMO.

Irish should be optional at LC level
English too
Maths also.

Students should get to choose subjects they LIKE and are GOOD at.
They shouldn't have subjects forced on them.

Why force a student who is utterly **** at maths to study it? Or English?

Compulsory subjects are ok up to JC level so students get a chance
to find out what they are actually good at. At LC level they should
be given a free choice. Many countries do this - we should too.

I would scrap Irish in Primary as well though cos 50% of primary
teachers can't teach it properly. Better to learn it in secondary where
the Irish teachers are much better. Thats how the continental languages
are taught and it works really well! I was nearly fluent after 5 years of French
in secondary but my Irish was piss poor after 13 years in total!

I hope the Irish language never dies out but I think it is wrong to force
cultural things like languages on people in a free democratic country. If you
love Irish you should have the chance to learn it. If you don't then you
shouldn't be FORCED to. I think enough people love Irish to keep it going
forever - but the rest of us should be free to opt out if we prefer.

I come from a long line of Dubs and English people - I don't think there's been
a fluent Irish speaker in my family since the 1800s!! It's not fair to say it's
part of MY culture when my family has been so thoroughly anglicized for so
many generations. If Irish is part of your culture then more power to you -
you learn it and enjoy it! If I was to learn another language I'd go for
Spanish TBH - 300 million speakers can't be wrong :-)

Or what about Chinese? We have more fluent Chinese speakers in Ireland
now than Irish speakers (Polish speakers too - 60,000!). Since China
is clearly going to be ruling the world in 20-30 years maybe we should get
a leg up and offer it to interested students today? By choice mind you -
not forced!

toiletduck

totally agree ^^^

i was almost fluent in french at leaving cert but could barely string a few words together for my irish oral!

elvenscout742

Uthur wrote:

Why force a student who is utterly **** at maths to study it? Or English?

Well, duh! Because they are obviously not absolutely perfect superhuman demigods, and so should be punished with bad grades and constant boredom.

:rolleyes: