35 Nigerians deported on flight to Lagos

billy the squid · 17-03-2005 2:11pm

do you know these 35 deportees personally? how do you know that these particular people entered the country in this manner

have you ever considered the possibilities that there are cases of refugees being locked in sealed trailers with no ability to leave it until it gets to its destination.

human trafficking is a hurrendous crime, but it does happen. and the example I give you is one of the methods used.

would you have them sent back to their country like the animals you think they are? in trucks like the way they might have come into the country.

Imposter · 17-03-2005 2:20pm

Whether you like it or not billy they went through the asylum process and their appications got rejected for whatever reasons. What time they are collected/arrested at and flown out at makes no difference.

billy the squid · 17-03-2005 2:25pm

then why go to such trouble?

Roisin Dubh · 17-03-2005 2:29pm

billy the squid wrote:

then why go to such trouble?

They are more likely to be at home during the night so its an appropriate time to round them up for deportation.

They can be sent back to a previous EU port of call under the Dublin II Regulations and let them be.

No, I don't know them personally. Do you? Should knowing them be a precondition for deporting them? Or an inducement to let them stay?

pickarooney · 17-03-2005 2:42pm

Third_Echelon wrote:

Im not saying that they have to become "Irish" or act like us. What im saying is that they have to be respectful of the ways things are done in Ireland. You just cant come to a country and expect things to be done the same way as at home.

Look at the situation in the netherlands with the muslims. They have become ghettoised and look what that led to with the van gogh case.

Anybody coming into the netherlands now has to take a 'dutch test' on all things dutch. General knowledge etc.
After a year of living there you take another test and if you pass you stay. I think its a good idea.... If you want to live in my country you have to respect my culture and tradition. You dont have to honour them, but you have to respect them.

I was just reading an article in the paper on the farce that is the inburgeringsexamen. It's only obligatory for non-EU nationals and the language part of the test is being carried out in the country of origin of the applicant, before they go to Holland. It consists of an oral exam, done via a PC microphone, from home. The "examiner" is a speech-recognition system in the Dutch embassy which, strangely enough, has problems with non-Dutch accents. How anyone is supposed to learn Dutch without being in the country is beyond me, and to a level that will satisfy a SRS is just ludicrous. Passing the tests themselves are no guarantee that you'll be allowed to stay, they're just a pre-requisite.

My next-door-neighbour is 12 and from Guinea. Both his parents were killed (war and traffic accident) and he now lives with his "aunt" - his mother's best friend - and stepfather. His stepfather hates and beats him, and will not do anything to help him get official residency. He's been here for 6 years, speaks perfect Dutch - he basically taught me to speak it - as well as good English, French and native Pili, is all things considered an extremely well-mannered, thoughtful and courteous kid. He regularly gets picked on, by teachers and pupils alike, and beaten up in school. His stepmother, though she speaks no Dutch, has a residency permit, as she arrived before the language requirement, as does his stepfather. Because he's not a blood relation and doesn't have the same last name, he does not. Despite months of effort and thousands of euros spent trying to officialise him, he'll be deported to Guinea at the end of the year, where he has no surviving family, to become, as his stepmother puts it, a delinquent, ending up in prison or dead.

He's been through the system, failed and is just another statistic.

Phil_321 · 17-03-2005 2:51pm

billy the squid wrote:

then why go to such trouble?

How many times do you have to be told the reasons for the night time deportations before it sinks in?

O.K., I'll tell you once more:
1). People are more likely to be at home.
2). Cheaper flights
3). Arrive at their destination at an approtpriate hour
4). Element of surprise (Won't see the Gardai coming, therefore won't be able to do a runner out the back door).

Do you propose we give every single asylum seeker residency here?
These people failed in their asylum applications so it's not unjust to send them home.

CtrlSource · 17-03-2005 2:53pm

Imposter wrote:

Why are people protesting? They failed in their quest for asylum and they are being deported! Or do you know something that the media doesn't?

I think some people may be protesting when they read things like the following:
http://www.unison.ie/irish_independent/stories.php3?ca=9&si=1359583&issue_id=12218 [relevant from para. 4 onwards]

I don't even want to start on the asylum "policy" in this country, or how the Department of Justice and in particular the current Minister :mad: stand on this issue.

The level of racism that I've come across in Dublin alone (among my own age-group (20-s)) towards Nigerians and eastern Europeans demonstrates that too many of us are as narrow-minded and inward-looking as our parents' and grandparents' generations

Wibbs · 17-03-2005 2:53pm

Now that is ridiculous pickarooney. What hammerhead thought that test up?

That kids story is a bloody disgrace. He's lived in the EU for 6 years is it possible he could get residency in another EU country? At least as a temporary solution. 12yrs old. Jesus.

pickarooney · 17-03-2005 3:02pm

the_syco wrote:

Its sad really. I've yet to see one asylum seeker to take in our culture. When in Rome, do as the Romans do. They don't talk English. You want us to like you? Talk english. Looking at the Chinese, Pakistani's, African's (I sorry; I don't know the pural of more than African) who I've worked with; they have all learned English, and they agree to our laws.

You can't form a simple plural after a lifetime in the country and yet you expect immigrants to magically acquire the English language through being copped up in Mosney with fellow immigrants?

pickarooney · 17-03-2005 3:15pm

Wibbs wrote:

Now that is ridiculous pickarooney. What hammerhead thought that test up?

That kids story is a bloody disgrace. He's lived in the EU for 6 years is it possible he could get residency in another EU country? At least as a temporary solution. 12yrs old. Jesus.

His stepmum is trying that. She has a sister in Belgium (whose laws are more understanding), but she doesn't seem to care and is not interested in helping him, even for the 6 months it would take to reapply for asylum.

The Corinthian · 17-03-2005 3:54pm

billy the squid wrote:

I'm sure that there is some logic behind these midnight flights, whether it be the fact that they would like to arrive in lagos during daylight or whatever it might be.

There’s no reasonable reason to believe that the logic is no more complicated than a practical consideration such as cheap charter flights.

it just seems very clandestine to be doing it in the middle of the night.

Of course it’s clandestine - what did the Gardai want to do? Set up appointments?

“Sorry, but would tomorrow morning be all right with you for your deportation? No? Oh, are you free next Thursday then? Say around midday? Errr...”

ArthurDent · 17-03-2005 6:25pm

Third_Echelon wrote:

Im not saying that they have to become "Irish" or act like us. What im saying is that they have to be respectful of the ways things are done in Ireland. You just cant come to a country and expect things to be done the same way as at home.

Look at the situation in the netherlands with the muslims. They have become ghettoised and look what that led to with the van gogh case.

Anybody coming into the netherlands now has to take a 'dutch test' on all things dutch. General knowledge etc.
After a year of living there you take another test and if you pass you stay. I think its a good idea.... If you want to live in my country you have to respect my culture and tradition. You dont have to honour them, but you have to respect them.

now where have I seen something like this before?

oh yes here................http://www.kinsella.org/history/histira.htm
and here http://www.digitalhistory.uh.edu/historyonline/irish_am_solidarity.cfm

see any parallels between this discussion and the fate of catholic Irish immigrants in America? We sure can have short memories.

Sleepy · 18-03-2005 1:47am

One thing I'm still curious about is how anyone can be a genuine asylum seeker in Ireland?

AFAIK, there are no direct flights to Ireland from any African country? Surely if one was a genuine refugee, one's plea for asylum should be to the government of the first country one landed in?

sceptre · 18-03-2005 2:05am

Sleepy wrote:

One thing I'm still curious about is how anyone can be a genuine asylum seeker in Ireland?

AFAIK, there are no direct flights to Ireland from any African country? Surely if one was a genuine refugee, one's plea for asylum should be to the government of the first country one landed in?

You're not trolling are you? (as we've had this one out to exhaustion (to the point where almost everyone who could read understood it, even if they didn't agree with it) in the past)

Assuming you're not (I know you from here as a non-troll), the short version is that legally any individual can seek asylum in any country they like, first point of entry or not. There are facilities and two multi-party agreements for an EU member state to send a seeker back to the country of first entry should the state choose to do so within an adequately long period. This has been availed of on occasion and not availed of on occasion given that it's at the behest of the state whether they wish to avail of the procedure or not. A search for my posts (for example) on the topic of asylum will give you all the info you'll need to answer your question above as for some inane reason I explained the regulations and protocols in exhaustive detail (editorial note: not that that raised the standard of discussion in any appreciable way at the time).

Sleepy · 18-03-2005 2:22am

Nope, wasn't a troll. I just find it a bit strange for a refugee to be able to choose the country they want to seek refuge in.

GuanYin · 18-03-2005 2:28am

Sleepy wrote:

Nope, wasn't a troll. I just find it a bit strange for a refugee to be able to choose the country they want to seek refuge in.

Well I dunno about that, if I was running from a bad situation, I think I might try pick a country where I and my family might be treated will and wher ethere was no ill treatment of my race/religion/creed.

billy the squid · 18-03-2005 2:45am

The Corinthian wrote:

There’s no reasonable reason to believe that the logic is no more complicated than a practical consideration such as cheap charter flights.

Of course it’s clandestine - what did the Gardai want to do? Set up appointments?

“Sorry, but would tomorrow morning be all right with you for your deportation? No? Oh, are you free next Thursday then? Say around midday? Errr...”

arresting them and detaining them overnight can be justified, but putting them on a long haul flight without any sleep in the middle of the night is not.

are they afraid of protesters or something

billy the squid · 18-03-2005 2:49am

No, I don't know them personally. Do you? Should knowing them be a precondition for deporting them? Or an inducement to let them stay?

no Roisin, knowing them would qualify you to state which route into the country these particular asylem seekers took. To say that they all cross the border is just generalising.

Roisin Dubh · 18-03-2005 5:21am

Assuming you're not (I know you frmo here as a non-troll), the short version is that legally any individual can seek asylum in any country they like, first point of entry or not. There are facilities and two multi-party agreements for an EU member state to send a seeker back to the country of first entry should the state choose to do so within an adequately long period. This has been availed of on occasion and not availed of on occasion given that it's at the behest of the state whether they wish to avail of the procedure or not.

Sceptre, while that may be the legal position, I personally feel that letting asylum-seekers choose the country they claim asylum in without restrictions, is just plain daft. They will graduate towards countries with more generous systems in terms of welfare or employment prospects, as humans tend to.

We need a change in International Law to spell out more clearly that a country is not obliged to process an asylum-claim from a migrant whose sole motivations are economic.

Zombrex · 18-03-2005 10:29am

Sleepy wrote:

Nope, wasn't a troll. I just find it a bit strange for a refugee to be able to choose the country they want to seek refuge in.

I never really understood that logic. Why should they not be able to choose? There could be a thousand and one reason why a genuine asylum seeker would want to come to Ireland. Maybe they speak english instead of french or dutch. Maybe they heard Ireland was safer. Maybe they know people here.

We do get thousands of genuine asylum seekers each year, people who pass assessment and are granted asylum, people who are actually coming from dangerous countries, in fear of their life and their families. Maybe we should ask them...

Zombrex · 18-03-2005 10:32am

Roisin Dubh wrote:

Sceptre, while that may be the legal position, I personally feel that letting asylum-seekers choose the country they claim asylum in without restrictions, is just plain daft.

Is it not equally daft to force them all into the EU border countries, that will be over whelmed by all the european asylum seekers and probably not be able to cope. Maybe we should ask Spain if they would mind taking all the asylum seekers.

How pissed off do you think the rest of the EU would be if little old Ireland, who has pretty much been riding on the generousity of the EU for the last 20 years, decided that, due to a fluke of geography, we couldn't be arsed taking any refugees and the rest of the EU should do it because we didn't want to.

Ireland take a lot less refugees that most EU countries. Maybe we should stop complaining and just do our (small) part.

Phil_321 · 18-03-2005 10:49am

billy the squid wrote:

arresting them and detaining them overnight can be justified, but putting them on a long haul flight without any sleep in the middle of the night is not.

FFS, big deal, a few hours missed sleep. What a gross violation of their human rights. Next you'll be complaining they don't get inflight movies and refreshments.
Anyway, sure they can't sleep on the plane if they want.

Nietzschean · 18-03-2005 11:07am

psi wrote:

I'd still like to see the person who signed the deportation order for that kid, named and shamed. And fired.

Erm so the kid lied on his application, heck he's doing his LC he could be 18 easily at that rate. So at 18 he should really have thought about it better, if you forged an application and were found out would you still expect it to be accepted? You can't start making acceptions left right n centre, it dilutes the law. Harsh yes, but also nessary.

O and to who ever said about we shouldn't deport people who have integrated into society, does that mean we should keep them all in asylum camps like in france?

The Corinthian · 18-03-2005 11:13am

billy the squid wrote:

arresting them and detaining them overnight can be justified, but putting them on a long haul flight without any sleep in the middle of the night is not.

Then should the State pay double for a daytime flight or perhaps we should throw them in jail overnight so they can all get a good night’s rest or maybe you would prefer that they were put up in the Shelbourne instead?

And having done a few long haul or charter flights, I can tell you that sleep and comfort is a luxury at the best of times.

are they afraid of protesters or something

If anything reporters, as they would be unlikely to be awake - and if awake, in my experience; drunk. Nonetheless, fiscal reasons are the more likely reason and you’ve not presented any credible theory, let alone evidence, to the contrary to date.

Roisin Dubh · 18-03-2005 12:00pm

Wicknight wrote:

Is it not equally daft to force them all into the EU border countries, that will be over whelmed by all the european asylum seekers and probably not be able to cope. Maybe we should ask Spain if they would mind taking all the asylum seekers.

How pissed off do you think the rest of the EU would be if little old Ireland, who has pretty much been riding on the generousity of the EU for the last 20 years, decided that, due to a fluke of geography, we couldn't be arsed taking any refugees and the rest of the EU should do it because we didn't want to.

Ireland take a lot less refugees that most EU countries. Maybe we should stop complaining and just do our (small) part.

We have taken a great many per head of population, the highest or second highest in the EU in 2003 after Austria.

I read in todays newspapers that we are STILL getting asylum-seekers in this country trying to get citizenship in Ireland on the basis of an Irish-born child. Didn't we vote to stop this charade last year? Hurry up McDowell. Put your money where your mouth is and stop this cynical exploitation of what were supposed to be our former rules.

Slutmonkey57b · 18-03-2005 12:16pm

The Corinthian wrote:

Then should the State pay double for a daytime flight or perhaps we should throw them in jail overnight so they can all get a good night’s rest or maybe you would prefer that they were put up in the Shelbourne instead?

Haaaah! Not likely, it's closing down. Which is nice.

On topic, Nigeria is an oil-rich country that's riddled with corruption. This does not however make all Nigerians scammers, evil or criminals. Irish society is just as corrupt, but that doesn't make us all Charlie Haughy.

Interesting that so many people think that immigrant here should "integrate" with the locals. Schure, isn't that what the Irish always did when they emigrated? All those missionaries, they were great at "integrating" into the local society like. And schure, the Irish in America were great mixers and didn't keep themselves to themselves at all, or stamp their own society's template right down on where they lived. And all those Irish who take jobs in the middle east, schure, they always think to themselves "Ah I'd better lay off the drink while I'm over there and respect the local customs like." I for one don't know a single Irish guy who runs a bar for westerners in Saudi.

billy the squid · 18-03-2005 12:50pm

Phil_321 wrote:

FFS, big deal, a few hours missed sleep. What a gross violation of their human rights. Next you'll be complaining they don't get inflight movies and refreshments.
Anyway, sure they can't sleep on the plane if they want.

please quote where i said anything about in-flight movies.

billy the squid · 18-03-2005 12:53pm

The Corinthian wrote:

Then should the State pay double for a daytime flight or perhaps we should throw them in jail overnight so they can all get a good night’s rest or maybe you would prefer that they were put up in the Shelbourne instead?

And having done a few long haul or charter flights, I can tell you that sleep and comfort is a luxury at the best of times.

If anything reporters, as they would be unlikely to be awake - and if awake, in my experience; drunk. Nonetheless, fiscal reasons are the more likely reason and you’ve not presented any credible theory, let alone evidence, to the contrary to date.

where does it state in py posts that we accomodate them in five star hotels?

the_syco · 18-03-2005 12:59pm

Wibbs wrote:

Now that is ridiculous pickarooney. What hammerhead thought that test up?

That kids story is a bloody disgrace. He's lived in the EU for 6 years is it possible he could get residency in another EU country? At least as a temporary solution. 12yrs old. Jesus.

Who was 12 years old? The "kid" who was doing his LC was 20.

pickarooney wrote:

You can't form a simple plural after a lifetime in the country and yet you expect immigrants to magically acquire the English language through being copped up in Mosney with fellow immigrants?

Yup. A Chinese guy comes here. He can @ first speak very little English. After two weeks he can speak the basic numbers. After 6 months he can speak fluent English. Every chinese person I've met in Ireland can speak english. Some may not be very fluent, but they can speak it. After 3 months you can hold a decent conversation with them. The ones in the foreigners in the street who carry the half-dead babies in the streets can't seem to be able to speak english. From those that I've met, Romanians have a very quick uptake with most langauges.

billy the squid wrote:

arresting them and detaining them overnight can be justified, but putting them on a long haul flight without any sleep in the middle of the night is not.

are they afraid of protesters or something

Couldn't help laughing at the bit about getting no sleep on a long flight. Its a long flight. What else are they going to do, beside's sleep?

Roisin Dubh wrote:

Sceptre, while that may be the legal position, I personally feel that letting asylum-seekers choose the country they claim asylum in without restrictions, is just plain daft. They will graduate towards countries with more generous systems in terms of welfare or employment prospects, as humans tend to.

Did you say "generous systems in terms of welfare", because all I saw was Ireland. In France and Germany, the amount of money the asyluim-seekers is not as generous.

Wicknight wrote:

Ireland take a lot less refugees that most EU countries. Maybe we should stop complaining and just do our (small) part.

But there's more of a chance of them being genuine, as their application process is better (or worse, for the asylum seeker).

billy the squid wrote:

where does it state in py posts that we accomodate them in five star hotels?

When people say hotels, they should look into what classifies as a "hotel". The "hotels" which the asylum seekers are put into aren't 4 star. Heck, I doubt they're even one star. A "hotel" is a category of housing. Its where you must pay X to stay, and the goverment pays it.

Zombrex · 18-03-2005 1:17pm

Roisin Dubh wrote:

We have taken a great many per head of population, the highest or second highest in the EU in 2003 after Austria.

What does that have to do with. We are a grossly under populated country (thank you very much Mr. Famine), but we still complain about taking on foreigners. At the moment we take 1.5 percent of EU asylum seekers. We are a rich country with a very small population for our land mass, complaining that other poorer countries with much higher populations and much higher levels of asylum applications take on even more of the asylum seekers while we want to sit back and refuse to help.

What is the percentage of EU refugees we take compared to our GDP? I am pretty sure we would be last.

Roisin Dubh wrote:

I read in todays newspapers that we are STILL get ting asylum-seekers in this country trying to get citizenship in Ireland on the basis of an Irish-born child. Didn't we vote to stop this charade last year?

Just shows that no one actually knew what they were voting for. The vast vast majority of "citizenship tourism" was being done by people here on legal holiday visas, by people who left after they had the baby. They were doing it so their children would have EU passports, and as such could work in the EU when they turned 18. The asylum-seekers have very little to do with it. If you though you were voting to decrease asylum applications you were dupped by the Yes campaign, as most of the country seems to have been. :rolleyes:

35 Nigerians deported on flight to Lagos

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