Demo on Saturday

foxybrowne

Anyone heading into march against occupation of Iraq and Palestine this Saturday at 2? There won't be a Trinners banner, cos we in Trinity who oppose ocupation neglected to bring a motion to SU council stating TCDSU would support the demo.
BUT
Its USI policy so we can go and march with under their banner, or even UCDSU, cos they'll be there too. Of course we could just go as individuals, the possibilities for fun and marching is endless!
It should be an injoyable day of solidarity.

John

foxybrowne wrote:

There won't be a Trinners banner, cos we in Trinity who oppose ocupation neglected to bring a motion to SU council stating TCDSU would support the demo.

Good to see you're organised and dedicated

foxybrowne

Go on the crazy liberal hippy wasters, yeow.

John

foxybrowne wrote:

Go on the crazy liberal hippy wasters, yeow.

You said it...

foxybrowne

John2 wrote:

You said it...

I've said lots of things during my wearisome life and most of it has been been purile and weak. But I say this now with great conviction in my heart, come to the march on Saturday and tell the government that you do not support the occupation of Iraq and Palistine, that you did not support the war for oil and that you will no longer stand for the use of Shannon Airport by US military.

Crash

I wish i was a leftie pinkie liberal fascist at times...

Kevin_rc_ie

so what's the point of marching again.

foxybrowne

Why not, there room for everyone in this crazy mixed up world of ours.

Bob Dylan sang:
"Hey Woodie Guthrie I wrote you this song
Bout this crazy ol world thats coming along
Its beat up and tired, its sick and its worn
Its already dying and its hardly been born"

Its kind of irrelevent and off the point, but so too is much of our society.

Kevin_rc_ie

too true too true.

i was listening to artur funny second name, some chap from the british coal mines trade unions on marianne i'm incredibly stupid finucane today. he was ranting all this socialist propaganda too. fair play.

foxybrowne

Kevin_rc_ie wrote:

so what's the point of marching again.

Well I suppose when someone is far away, you have to speak really loudly and even say it a few times, so they get the message.

Kevin_rc_ie

eh ok.

so foxy u go to the jcr, i'm some times around might know you to see. i try and stay away from those mad su ppl thou. viva la resistance.

foxybrowne

Ah I go in there the odd time Kev, the names Paul by the way.

Kevin_rc_ie

oh i thought ur name was foxy. my names frank by the way.

foxybrowne

Sorry Frank, hows it goin anyway, its great to have the three weeks off, isnt it.

Pet

my names frank by the way.

Liar.

aodh_rua

Kevin_rc_ie wrote:

artur funny second name

Scargill?

Nietzschean

has the war in iraq not proved public protests are irrelvent in alot of western countries?


certainly our government will never withdraw the services of shannon and piss off america, nor should it, it just doesn't make good business sence. And it won't have a huge effect on america, just make bush/bill view ireland a little differently. This has very little negative impact on us so its not going away.... ( o and what genius supports a pull out from iraq right now? after removing all power structures without the new ones in place yet to force them to pull out? not a bit stupid? chaos would insew(i only need point at afganistan..) , as for palestine i support that pull out, but i don't see your protest achieving that..)

Rosebyname

Whos occupying Iraq now? oh yes the terrorists. Im all for that allright! And I thought all these anti war protests were just anti-american. After all , America and the other forces are there with the wishes of the provisional government.

Rosebyname

And I doupt a motion like that would get past a referendum in TCD.

Nietzschean

Rosebyname wrote:

Whos occupying Iraq now? oh yes the terrorists. Im all for that allright! And I thought all these anti war protests were just anti-american. After all , America and the other forces are there with the wishes of the provisional government.

ye can't say they are occupying iraq, they were there first....

america is like the worst country in the world to run an invasion, cause everyone hates em. So when they put a new govt in power everyone ignores it... The elected one hasn't put a govt in place so that means nothing yet. Even then the sunni's never voted...

Andrew 83

Darth Bobo wrote:

has the war in iraq not proved public protests are irrelvent in alot of western countries?

That's ridiculous, while the war still went ahead the amount of public dissatisfaction made a huge point and much of Europe ended up not joining the war effort. Even if Britain did, and if Ireland still allows the US planes through Shannon, it's better to show your disapproval and protest than just sit back and say 'no point it wont change anything'. thigns might not have been changed yet but if you don't try nothing ever will.

Boston

I find these events taking over by socalists, it really is terrible.

ferdi

even if you couldnt give a tos about the issues being raised by the march, i think its important to attend these demos....mass public disobedience is absolutly essential to the survival of democracy in modern western society.

Nietzschean

Andrew 83 wrote:

That's ridiculous, while the war still went ahead the amount of public dissatisfaction made a huge point and much of Europe ended up not joining the war effort. Even if Britain did, and if Ireland still allows the US planes through Shannon, it's better to show your disapproval and protest than just sit back and say 'no point it wont change anything'. thigns might not have been changed yet but if you don't try nothing ever will.

Um what about the netherlands, italy, spain, uk, poland -- are they no longer in europe?

The big 2 to be anti-war were germany and france, they did it as much as a political muscle flexing as going along with public opinion. Bare in mind i did also say most.

And we can show our disapproval via voting, duh. If people actually all voted instead of having silly protests things might be different.


O and FYI before the war most of the biggest anti-war protests were in the US, who incase u didn't notice continued on regardless.

Nietzschean

Boston wrote:

I find these events taking over by socalists, it really is terrible.

very true, another reason why i'll never goto one. And probally why no one takes them seriously anymore..... 'just another couple of socalists acting up'........

Rosebyname

even if you couldnt give a tos about the issues being raised by the march, i think its important to attend these demos

You dont go to a protest just for the sake of protesting. It belittles all the protests that were for an actually constructive cause.
And regardless of the US past, what do you think will be achieved when they leave? And if it is your idea darth, that because its only the provisional govt that support the US in Iraq, then the following govt (elected) will tell the westerners to pull out? and if they dont what would you think then? and in any case do you not think you should hold off the protests till sometime as the Iraqis actually want them out immediately and the US refuse?

Nietzschean

Rosebyname wrote:

And regardless of the US past, what do you think will be achieved when they leave? And if it is your idea darth, that because its only the provisional govt that support the US in Iraq, then the following govt (elected) will tell the westerners to pull out?

Firstly i never said the american's should pull out, i do believe i pointed out in an earlier post how stupid this would be, though possibly replacing american troops with un/EU(France/germany) and possibly chinese/russian troops would be a better solution as these country were against the war and have better public standing. But as they quite rightly view it, its america's mess, let em fix it.

and if they dont what would you think then? and in any case do you not think you should hold off the protests till sometime as the Iraqis actually want them out immediately and the US refuse?

Hey you not attacking the wrong person here? lol....might wanna read up.
US r die'n to get out of iraq, sure that many casualties ain't good for moral or public opinion back home....

John

I'll only go to a protest if I personally think it's worth protesting for. I was anti-war and I still am. But pulling out of Iraq now is just idiocy. I agree with Herr Bobo that replacing them with UN peacekeeping troops is far more sensible.

And why is all of this a socialist cause? I do not agree with socialism at all but by marketing all these protests as socialist causes (and it is very much marketing, walk through town on any protest day and you are bombarded with Socialist Worker knobs who think they know better) is going to put off normal people from protesting. You organise a protest in the name of the citizens of Ireland (or better still, all people living here, citizens or not), not in the name of any political movement.

And why only organise protests? Why not send as many letters and emails as possible to as many people as possible voicing your opinions? If everyone who was so dedicated to their beliefs instead of standing on the street handing out leaflets instead wrote letters every week to the same people it would make more of an impact, if only a dent.

Barry Aldwell

John2 wrote:

I agree with Herr Bobo that replacing them with UN peacekeeping troops is far more sensible.

It'd be the same troops with different hats tbh

foxybrowne

Well lets get out there and discuss these issues. There will be no better place than at an public rally.
Forget about socialism, neo-liberalism and neo-conservatism and all the rest and think about whether or not you agree with whats going on in Iraq and Palestine.

DrIndy

I'll probably pop by for a while, I will be just after a Patients Together protest outside the Mater A&E at 1 o'clock.

Come along to that too - and show up how crap this health service is....

Nietzschean

foxybrowne wrote:

Well lets get out there and discuss these issues. There will be no better place than at an public rally.
Forget about socialism, neo-liberalism and neo-conservatism and all the rest and think about whether or not you agree with whats going on in Iraq and Palestine.

A rally isn't for discussion, its to make a singular view well known..

Nietzschean

Barry Aldwell wrote:

It'd be the same troops with different hats tbh

As for this, the UN (i.e. france/germany) won't pass a resolution to such an effect, as we have seen already seen(i think it was brought up sometime last year about using UN peace keepers). And the case of US in different uniforms has only really happened on one occasion that i can recall off hand, being the korean war...

John

foxybrowne wrote:

think about whether or not you agree with whats going on in Iraq and Palestine.

Why one rally for both? They are two completely separate issues.

DrIndy

Remember the rules of 10's - its imprecise but accurate.....

For every one demonstrator, there are 10 people who support it, 100 people who are talking about it and 1000 people aware of it.

Thats what scared the bejesus out of the government at the first, huge antiwar demo........

Kevin_rc_ie

how many 10s dont support it?

John

a tithe of them

Crash

John2 wrote:

Why one rally for both? They are two completely separate issues.

yeah thats what you got to love - the people who organise these things tar a large number of political situations with the same brush while ignoring all the idiosyncracies of
the same situations. its that level of ignorance of the difference in how things occur that turns me off these things - i have my own views on a lot of this, parts of it would probably lead to very heated discussions, but i'm not gonna go to a rally to show my views when a large part of it is being sidetracked for points that i dont feel the same way about.

Andrew 83

Darth Bobo wrote:

Um what about the netherlands, italy, spain, uk, poland -- are they no longer in europe?

The big 2 to be anti-war were germany and france, they did it as much as a political muscle flexing as going along with public opinion. Bare in mind i did also say most.

And we can show our disapproval via voting, duh. If people actually all voted instead of having silly protests things might be different.


O and FYI before the war most of the biggest anti-war protests were in the US, who incase u didn't notice continued on regardless.

The public disapproval for the war led to the socialists making it a key election issue leading to their victory in the elections and Spain's withdrawal.

It looks like the same mihgt happen in Itlay last year with Prodi currently ahead in polls largely due to an anti-war stance.

If there was a decent opposition in the UK at the moment I think the UK would be another danger but not with the Conservatives' current state of affairs.

Protests make politicians make decisions and can lead to changes.

Nietzschean

Andrew 83 wrote:

The public disapproval for the war led to the socialists making it a key election issue leading to their victory in the elections and Spain's withdrawal.

Errr I seem to remember a certain train bombing that was largely responsible for that switch............

Kevin_rc_ie

if you say so.

Andrew 83

Darth Bobo wrote:

Errr I seem to remember a certain train bombing that was largely responsible for that switch............

The bombing was only a week before the election and although yes it probably got the Socialists more votes pulling out of Iraq had been high on the Socialists' campaigning all through the campaign.

Nietzschean

Andrew 83 wrote:

The bombing was only a week before the election and although yes it probably got the Socialists more votes pulling out of Iraq had been high on the Socialists' campaigning all through the campaign.

probally got them more? they had a land slide win as a result. The pull out was as a result of the bombing. The italians discussing a pull out is in response for the american's killing one of their agents.... I'm failing to see the imact of mass protesting in any country. We could look to america where bush who started the war was put back in power.

gom

Darth Bobo wrote:

Um what about the netherlands, italy, spain, uk, poland -- are they no longer in europe?

Hey Darth

Spain pulled its troops out of Iraq after the Socialists got in as promised.
Italy announced it was pulling its troops out in the next few months.
Poland has already stated that it would be leaving by the end of the year.

Both Spain and Italy made the decisins mainly on Public Pressure and Poland under increasing killings of its troops by the US.

While France and Germany did not support the war they still aloud the US to use bases in germany and france to launch attacks on Iraq.

You say voting is more important than protests. Thats fine then. If what you say is true FF would not have aloud the US military to use Shannon and Ireland would not be a member of a Nato organisation called the Partnership4Peace. P4P allows NATO members to use P4P countries for NATO activities such as training and shannon related activities.

Public opinion was shown in Ireland and FF/PDs said that they were against the war too... Politicans can lie. Especially FF TDs....

Besides Iraq it is important from the prospective of a student to show solidarity with the people of Palestine who are under occupation. Many of whom can not attend college due to an illegally built 6 metre high wall running through their town.

I have friends who visited both Israel and Palestine last January as part of a French fact finding mission for the PS/MJS. It is a lot more complicated than I used to believe but solidarity is important.
The people of Palestine have 3 large worries. The top worry is poverty. 2nd os the occupation. Keep that in mind

Nietzschean

Er Great speach gom.....


Now if you actually read this thread you might have noticed that my response was in regard to :

Andrew 83 wrote:

That's ridiculous, while the war still went ahead the amount of public dissatisfaction made a huge point and much of Europe ended up not joining the war effort. Even if Britain did, and if Ireland still allows the US planes through Shannon, it's better to show your disapproval and protest than just sit back and say 'no point it wont change anything'. thigns might not have been changed yet but if you don't try nothing ever will.

Which isn't true, the majority of military powers in europe did join in the war as i pointed out, I don't see how them removing their troups now is related to that point at all.

gom wrote:

Spain pulled its troops out of Iraq after the Socialists got in as promised.

I never said they didn't promise this, I pointed out their land slide victory was as a result of the madrid train bombing not public protests previously about the war. It may had an influence but i don't think anyone can deny this was the clinch factor of that vote.

gom wrote:

Italy announced it was pulling its troops out in the next few months.

I do believe i already pointed this out, your relevence? I said talking as i don't believe a specific date for full withdrawl has been set.

gom wrote:

Poland has already stated that it would be leaving by the end of the year.

Relevence?

gom wrote:

While France and Germany did not support the war they still aloud the US to use bases in germany and france to launch attacks on Iraq.

Firstly to the best of my knowledge most of the bases used in Germany are US bases anyway, and the US bases provide alot of income to their local area's so the German's don't want to see those gone(though i do believe they are being closed).

gom wrote:

If what you say is true FF would not have aloud the US military to use Shannon and Ireland would not be a member of a Nato organisation called the Partnership4Peace. P4P allows NATO members to use P4P countries for NATO activities such as training and shannon related activities.

How does that prove your point whatso ever? seems like a random rant to me about our neutrality(or lack of).

gom wrote:

Besides Iraq it is important from the prospective of a student to show solidarity with the people of Palestine who are under occupation

As i do believe John pointed out the situations of Iraq and Palestine are entirely different and should not be in the one protest, I would be against the Israeli occupation of Palestine and would consider supporting a rally against it, but certainly I wouldn't attend a rally saying US troops should pull out of Iraq.

O and i don't see your point about ranting on about the situation in palestine, you act as if the rest of us are uneducated here. I for one am quite well aware of the situation over there. I wouldn't claim to be an expert but your rant just seems like some way to justify your previously poorly supported points.

Time Magazine

Barry Aldwell wrote:

It'd be the same troops with different hats tbh

Nah, Blue-Rinsing is far different operation altogether.

Time Magazine

crash_000 wrote:

yeah thats what you got to love - the people who organise these things tar a large number of political situations with the same brush while ignoring all the idiosyncracies of the same situations.

I'm organising a mass protest against Terrorism, Plate-Techtonics and Brian Cowen!