British Govt considering using 'control orders' in North

Roisin Dubh

I feel really worried about this. If it happened, it would be even worse than internment, in that the suspects would not even know what they are being charged with, with is clearly a potential recipe for a renewed assault on the rights of the Nationalist community in the North.


http://www.unison.ie/breakingnews/index.php3?ca=9&si=69903

British Govt considering using 'control orders' in North

The British Government has revealed that it is considering using controversial anti-terrorism "control orders" in the North.

The orders allow the Government to place people under house arrest and restrict their communications without charge or trial.

They were introduced last week after previous British anti-terror legislation that allowed for the internment of terrorism suspects without trial was deemed to be in breach of international human rights law.

In the British House of Lords yesterday, the Conservative Party's Northern Ireland spokesman Lord Glentoran asked if the orders would be used against republican or loyalist paramilitaries in the North.

The Labour Government's leader in the house, Baroness Amos, replied that it was under consideration, but said the orders were exceptional and would not be used routinely.

Sleepy

the orders were exceptional and would not be used routinely.

As long as this was genuinely adhered to I don't see the problem tbh. Might make the North a safer place if the "fringe elements" are taken out.

Sponge Bob

Control Orders = Internment without the right to free association in the camp. AND you have to pay for your own food too .

It would be nice if they were experimented with during the marching season

gandalf

Well the question of these being used up in Northern Ireland would not have occured if it wasn't for the IRA drawing attention to themselves with the recent "troubles".

A Dub in Glasgo

Welcome to the home of democracy where the peoples human rights are adhered to

Nuttzz

whats the difference between using a control order in belfast and a control order in leeds?

A Dub in Glasgo

Nuttzz wrote:

whats the difference between using a control order in belfast and a control order in leeds?

Nothing

gandalf

Of course I am totally against these control orders in principle anyway. If you have enough evidence then charge the person involved and test that evidence in a court of law.

What Bin Laden and his cohorts have managed to do is actually a victory against their enemies, they have diminished peoples freedom in the UK and US.

sceptre

gandalf wrote:

Of course I am totally against these control orders in principle anyway. If you have enough evidence then charge the person involved and test that evidence in a court of law.

What Bin Laden and his cohorts have managed to do is actually a victory against their enemies, they have diminished peoples freedom in the UK and US.

I'd easily agree with that - I've said the same on my occasional posts on US-based boards.

gurramok

Nuttzz wrote:

whats the difference between using a control order in belfast and a control order in leeds?

Problem in belfast is that it would be harder to enforce in a particular area unless there was 24/7 armed soldiers monitoring the suspect.(loyalist r repub.) unless they ferry them off to a camp or something.
In Leeds, there is no history of armed resistance to the authorities.

Mighty_Mouse

As long as this was genuinely adhered to I don't see the problem tbh. Might make the North a safer place if the "fringe elements" are taken out.

Because the history of the north is one of equal rights, fairness and justice for all, "genuine" use of the legal system etc ......right?

Slutmonkey57b

gandalf wrote:

Of course I am totally against these control orders in principle anyway. If you have enough evidence then charge the person involved and test that evidence in a court of law.

What Bin Laden and his cohorts have managed to do is actually a victory against their enemies, they have diminished peoples freedom in the UK and US.

Agreed. By allowing themselves to be panicked into these measures those governments have given bin Laden (and the chuckies) free ammunition to use against them. It's not entirely suprising though since the heavy protection of individual freedoms that those countries had in the past allowed terrorists and seditionists to set up camp unopposed in Britain particularly.

Although I think there's no chance of the orders being used up north as too much work has gone into things up there to be messed up by control orders.

jesus_thats_gre

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

Welcome to the home of democracy where the peoples human rights are adhered to

Shame it took 40 years of ignoring basic human rights on behalf of the various paramiltaries to bring it about..

Sand

The control orders are neccessary - Britain has been home to some of the most extremist sects and immans who have been radicalising marginalised British muslims, especially the youngest whose Asian Islam is being cast aside in favour of Arabic Islam, sponsored by the vast wealth of the House of Saud.

The democratic institutions, rights and indeed privledges of Britain and other democratic states need to be protected. Its a difficult balancing act between freedoms and the defence of those freedoms, but using tools that were designed to deal with either organised crime or at worst nationalistic terrorism to combat religious extremists recruiting for holy war against Britain and its people is the equivalent of square pegs and round holes.

I think European/American governments need to go a step further and disbar Saudi sponsored Immans or schools from their territory as law and instead finance them themselves. According to the Koran, all a government has to do to retain legitimacy in the eyes of Islam is to facilitate prayer. And I think we could all do better without a Saudi sponsored kulterkamp being waged in the Islamic community.

There is little chance of them being employed in the North unless SF/IRA are ****ing stupid enough to go back to what they know best. Which theyre not going to do because theyd be destroyed utterly as an organisation - all their current membership is good for is kidnapping bankers families and gutting men in pubs.

Balfa

Sand wrote:

The control orders are neccessary

This is nothing personal, but if that's your opinion, i hope that you're imprisoned without trial the next time you're in a country that sees that as constitutional. I hope the same fate for all people who feel any legislative branch should bypass any judicial branch anywhere in the world.

The_Conductor

gurramok wrote:

In Leeds, there is no history of armed resistance to the authorities.

Perhaps not armed resistance, though that is changing, rapidly......
Have a listen to 5 Live on an average evening- count the references to Hawksworth estate, Halton Moor, East End Park, Beeston, Belle Isle, Middleton, Bramley, Seacroft etc....
Law and Order are live and well in Belfast in comparison, believe you me I am not joking......

Sand

This is nothing personal, but if that's your opinion, i hope that you're imprisoned without trial the next time you're in a country that sees that as constitutional. I hope the same fate for all people who feel any legislative branch should bypass any judicial branch anywhere in the world.

No offence taken, I understand the point you're making. Its not something that should be embraced or viewed as the perfect solution, but if people are radicalising communities and recruiting terrorists for war against democratic nations and their freedoms then we need tools to defend ourselves with. The Dutch experience has seen one of the most liberal nations turned on its head by the recent strife and actions (and reactions to) of marginalised, radicalised Muslims influenced by Arab backed Immans who are crushing the development of a European Islam.

mrhankey88

people dont realise that the brittish are as bad as the IRA. If you were a northern catholic and the brittish treated u and your friends and family like scum then you IRA bashers might be singing a different tune.
Its all very easy shouting about the IRA and SF down here in the south with all the prodestant left-wing propenganda media we have here.
The brittish have as much blood on their hands as the IRA do, if you think otherwise you are a fool. They commet state-sponsored terrorism.
I do not 100% support the IRA, but i do see where their coming from, and some of thier actions recently - which the IRA has denied - is not acceptable, but in the grand sceme of things not as bad as the brittish cover-ups and murders..
I believe it should be the Irish Goverment fighting for a united Ireland, not the IRA, they need to protect our people in the north until we achieve the freedom...

Sand

The brittish have as much blood on their hands as the IRA do, if you think otherwise you are a fool.

As you can see below the British Army killed 297 people throughout the troubles, including 9 British security forces. The IRA killed 1706. Even if you added together *all* the British killings and *all* the Loyalist killings - because I know you guys reckon theyre one and the same - the total would still only be 1,383 killings - the IRA is still a comftable 323 killings out in front, single handed. Even if you want to go down to innocents, the British killed 152 non aligned. The IRA killed 516 non aligned.

Your statement that the British have as much blood on their hands as the IRA is.....inaccurate by practically any measure, though youll probably go on about "800 years of rape, theft and murder!!!!" next. You're not on the IRBB anymore. Youll have to do better than that.

[EDIT] You'll have to use the crosstabulation table to see the stats as its not possibly to directly link unfortunately. Organisation and Status Summary should do it [/EDIT]

mrhankey88

though youll probably go on about "800 years of rape, theft and murder!!!!" next.

Dont make a joke about that. My granmother had the black and tans come into her class room and beat her teacher, no lie.
I cannot believe some Irish people on this board, we cannot forget out history - The famine - caused by the british - Plantations etc etc...
They are a disease on the irish nation - me even typing this to you in english shows you how they corrupted us. Just becase we have a new generation of brits accross the water doesnt mean we should forget or forgive - NEVER.

bonkey

mrhankey88 wrote:

are a disease on the irish nation

Just as the Irish nation is a disease on what we corrupted to become the Irish nation?

I'm guessing thats different though?

jc

BuffyBot

people dont realise that the brittish are as bad as the IRA. If you were a northern catholic and the brittish treated u and your friends and family like scum then you IRA bashers might be singing a different tune.

The problem is that people assume moving on from all of that equates to forgetting it - which is isn't. The sooner some people realise that, the better.

Lemming

mrhankey88 wrote:

I cannot believe some Irish people on this board, we cannot forget out history - The famine - caused by the british - Plantations etc etc...

The famine was exacerbated by the British. It was not created by the British however. Poor farming methods, an over-reliance on a single crop type, and bad luck were to blame. The plantations however, were a legacy of former British rule. But at what point does the son have to pay for the crimes of the father?

How many years have we had our own country? How many years does it take for us to stop blaming someone else, grow the f*ck up and take responsibility, as adults, for *our* own country?

I agree, we cannot, and should not, ever forget our history - at the same time we cannot wallow in it. I shall cite the matter of Northern Ireland as the prime example of how not to regard your history.

They are a disease on the irish nation - me even typing this to you in english shows you how they corrupted us. Just becase we have a new generation of brits accross the water doesnt mean we should forget or forgive - NEVER.

WTF?!!!!!! Erm ... "crimes of the father" and what not springs to mind. :rolleyes:

Mercury_Tilt

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Zombrex

mrhankey88 wrote:

Dont make a joke about that. My granmother had the black and tans come into her class room and beat her teacher, no lie.
I cannot believe some Irish people on this board, we cannot forget out history - The famine - caused by the british - Plantations etc etc...
They are a disease on the irish nation - me even typing this to you in english shows you how they corrupted us. Just becase we have a new generation of brits accross the water doesnt mean we should forget or forgive - NEVER.

Caused by British people who died hundreds of years ago.

Seriously, never forget, never forgive? What does that achieve? More hatred, more war, more death. If the British people we deal with now don't hold the views of their previous generations, then what purpose does it hold hating them?

Mercury_Tilt

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Lemming

Mercury_Tilt wrote:

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Oh agreed completely Merc. Both sides are equally guilty of the same thing here. Wallowing in history.

pogoń

mrhankey88 wrote:

They are a disease on the irish nation - me even typing this to you in english shows you how they corrupted us.

So, type in Irish then, no-ones stopping you.

Capt'n Midnight

gandalf wrote:

What Bin Laden and his cohorts have managed to do is actually a victory against their enemies, they have diminished peoples freedom in the UK and US.

Disagree, Bin Laden has strengthened the power of the governments, it's handy to have a scapegoat/bogeyman when you want to rush stuff though.

And we're still a long way from the Special Powers Act (1922?) as was.

There are situations up north (omagh?) where the most likely suspects are know , perhaps through inadmisible wire taps or evidence gained with a warrant where one of the i's ain't dotted or whatever where it could be used.

maybe if people could sue for wrongful detention that might be one way to limit their use ( being proved innocent would be a different matter)

Internment or similar where large numbers of innocent people were locked up would be totally counter productive - but everyone knows that don't they at this stage.

Mercury_Tilt

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pogoń

Mercury_Tilt wrote:

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It's part of my country (the UK):

I should know, I was born there.