Garden of Remembrance

aolXFT

I hate politics. Not so much politics itself, but how it works in most countries, including this one. One particular political movement I'm particularly annoyed with is the 'anti-bin-tax movement' currently taking place in Dublin. Councils around Dublin, in the last few years, shocked the country by starting to charge for rubbish collection. Dubliners were shocked by the prospect of paying for bin collection, whilst the rest of the country were shocked by the revelation that they weren't paying for their bin collection already.

A few weeks ago having just arrived in Dublin, I found myself walking past an all out protest against the bin 'tax', where I later found out was the Garden of Remembrance, which is a memorial to those who sacrificed their lives for the freedom of this country. Today I paid a visit to the garden, and saw placards protesting the war in Iraq, and the refuelling in Shannon, tied to the gate. There wasn't even a person there holding them.

The people for whom this garden is a memorial for, are the reason Ireland is a free country today. We should not forget the 26 counties have only been a sovern republic for the past 60 years, and that that the island as a whole is not yet free from british rule. Don't the martyrs, and their memorial, deserve a little more respect? Shouldn't their garden, be off-limits for all protests except those which directly relate to our national freedom and sovernty.

Note:
This topic is about what I consider the abuse of the Garden of Remembrance, as a base for non-freedom/sovernty-related protests. Discussions centering on bin charges, or the war in Iraq, are off-topic.

I think this is the correct forum for this, but I thought it would be better to post it here, as a topic, rather than post here asking if this was the correct forum for such a topic.

The_Conductor

Surely the unattended placcards are more a littering problem than anything else- but doubt that you'll get anywhere if you report it somehow!

While the garden is in rememberance of those who fell in 1916- something to keep in mind- the central sculpture (the children of Lir piece by Oisin Kelly) is both a celebration of peace and the futility of armed struggle, which may be slightly ironic for some people. The tile mosiac on the sunken pond depicts broken spears and swords- symbolising the ancient celtic tradition of smashing weapons and throwing them into the sea to appease the gods after battle.....

There is a hell of a lot of symbolism in the garden that a lot of people would much rather not know about- littering aside......

Nuttzz

the garden is for all the fallen not just for 1916, tbh i thinks its just used more as a hand rally point to march down o'connell street than anything else, if it was moved out to st annes park for example you wouldnt have the protests starting there

Zombrex

I don't think it has anything to do with the Garden of Remembrance, just the fence that surrounds it is a good place to stick up signs because of all the people that pass that way anyway.

Where any of the signs actually in the garden?

cdebru

of course another way to look at it would be that the people who died for your freedom died for your freedom to protest
just because you happen to agree or disagree with someones protest does not affect their right to protest


you could always start a pro bin tax movement if you feel that strongly about it

aolXFT

smccarrick: symbolism - my point exactly

Nuttzz/Wicknight: I'm sure it is a great place to start a protest. That doesn't take away from the fact that it is extremely disrespectful, and TBQH offensive, and rude. Surely they could find somewhere else on Parnell street, along the Quays, or perhaps D'Oilear street?

I didn't see any placards inside the garden, itself.

cdebru wrote:

of course another way to look at it would be that the people who died for your freedom died for your freedom to protest
just because you happen to agree or disagree with someones protest does not affect their right to protest

I fully support their right to protes. The right to protest derives from free speech, which is fundamental to any functional democracy.

With that right however, when exercised, comes responsabilities, and I think that one of the most fundamental responsabilities, when exercising given to you by men who sacrificed their lives so you could have that right, is to show a bit of respect for their memorial, and base/start your protests elsewhere.

The only excusable exception I can think of to this, would be a protest similar in nature to that which these men died for, in which case starting the protest there, would be a tribute to their cause, and not a demonstration of disrespect.

you could always start a pro bin tax movement if you feel that strongly about it

This is about the garden of remembrance. Whilst I do think the service of rubbish collection should be paid for(by those who recieve the service), this topic is about where they(and others) based their protest, and not about what they were protesting against. Its place in this discussion is simply reference.

cdebru

aolXFT wrote:

smccarrick: symbolism - my point exactly

Nuttzz/Wicknight: I'm sure it is a great place to start a protest. That doesn't take away from the fact that it is extremely disrespectful, and TBQH offensive, and rude. Surely they could find somewhere else on Parnell street, along the Quays, or perhaps D'Oilear street?

I didn't see any placards inside the garden, itself.


I fully support their right to protes. The right to protest derives from free speech, which is fundamental to any functional democracy.

With that right however, when exercised, comes responsabilities, and I think that one of the most fundamental responsabilities, when exercising given to you by men who sacrificed their lives so you could have that right, is to show a bit of respect for their memorial, and base/start your protests elsewhere.

The only excusable exception I can think of to this, would be a protest similar in nature to that which these men died for, in which case starting the protest there, would be a tribute to their cause, and not a demonstration of disrespect.



This is about the garden of remembrance. Whilst I do think the service of rubbish collection should be paid for(by those who recieve the service), this topic is about where they(and others) based their protest, and not about what they were protesting against. Its place in this discussion is simply reference.

IMO the fact that protests start from there is a tribute to the men and women who gave their lives for Irish freedom
I would personally prefer a memorial that is used and that virtually everyone knows where it is than a park hidden away incase some people feel a particular protest or another is beneath the people who fought and died for Ireland
it is at the centre of irish life in any movement that marches to celebrate commemorate or protest

from mayday to 1916 from strikes to bin protests to anti war marches I think it is a tribute to what these people achieved

Zombrex

aolXFT wrote:

With that right however, when exercised, comes responsabilities, and I think that one of the most fundamental responsabilities, when exercising given to you by men who sacrificed their lives so you could have that right, is to show a bit of respect for their memorial, and base/start your protests elsewhere.

I think the point people are making is that the protests aren't anything to do with the actually Garden, they are not attempting to bandwagon the Garden at all. They start there because that is the top of O'Connell St. If the Garden wasn't there they would start there anyway. Should all public protests and events avoid all memorials sites, even if they have nothing to do with them except that they pass by it? Is it wrong to march passed the GPO because that dishonours the memory of the Rising, or passed the flame outside the IFSC because that dishonours the memorial to those who suffered torture around the world (or what ever that flame memorial is, tbh i don't know)

They are not in the garden, they are outside beside it. And they arent beside it because it is the Garden of Rememberence, they are outside it because it is the top of O'Connell St.

I think objecting to protest marches starting there is an over reaction. The aren't disrespecting the memorial simply by being close to but outside of it.

aolXFT

cdebru wrote:

IMO the fact that protests start from there is a tribute to the men and women who gave their lives for Irish freedom
I would personally prefer a memorial that is used and that virtually everyone knows where it is than a park hidden away incase some people feel a particular protest or another is beneath the people who fought and died for Ireland
it is at the centre of irish life in any movement that marches to celebrate commemorate or protest

from mayday to 1916 from strikes to bin protests to anti war marches I think it is a tribute to what these people achieved

I'm not complaining about the location of the Garden. The garden should be in an easly accessable place, where it can be easly found.

Whether or not some of the protests that have taken place there are below the martyrs, in question, isn't a matter of opinion. It's a matter of fact. Compared to our national freedom, they are insignificant. Those protesting against the war in Iraq(which granted may have been freedom related), didn't even have the courtasy to stand with the placards, and take them with them when leaving.

Associating bin-charges, with the names of James Connolly, and Padraig Pearse, et al, is insulting to any true Irishman, with a respect for our national history.

cdebru

aolXFT wrote:

I'm not complaining about the location of the Garden. The garden should be in an easly accessable place, where it can be easly found.

Whether or not some of the protests that have taken place there are below the martyrs, in question, isn't a matter of opinion. It's a matter of fact. Compared to our national freedom, they are insignificant. Those protesting against the war in Iraq(which granted may have been freedom related), didn't even have the courtasy to stand with the placards, and take them with them when leaving.

Associating bin-charges, with the names of James Connolly, and Padraig Pearse, et al, is insulting to any true Irishman, with a respect for our national history.

i disagree that they are invoking the names of james connolly or padraig pearse
unless you are trying to suggest that anytime anyone starts a march or protest outside the garden of remembrance they are saying those that fought and died would be on our side that is not the case

I don't believe that the men and women who fought and died for Irish freedom should be put on a pedestal and not spoken about or referred to incase it might diminish them and their actions

as has been already mentioned the use of the garden of remembrance is more to do with its location and the fact that it is well known


as i have already said these people fought and died for Irish freedom the exercise of that freedom in political protest in no way diminishes what these people fought for it if anything it highlights it and in a way celebrates it

the protests are not insignificant compared to national freedom protest is part of our national freedom

aolXFT

cdebru wrote:

i disagree that they are invoking the names of james connolly or padraig pearse
unless you are trying to suggest that anytime anyone starts a march or protest outside the garden of remembrance they are saying those that fought and died would be on our side that is not the case

I'm not suggesting that they claim the allegience of James Connolly. I'm suggesting that they are associating the Garden of Remembrance with their totally unrelated protest. They are abusing the Garden, because of its location. It's like when the traders set up market in the church, and Jesus, came and kicked them out, because they were abusing the house of God.

I don't believe that the men and women who fought and died for Irish freedom should be put on a pedestal and not spoken about or referred to incase it might diminish them and their actions

I guess that is where we differ. I wouldn't use the term pedestal, but I certainly would consider them with a much higher level of respect than I would those, protesting, with nothing to worry them other than having to pay for their rubbish collection.

The anti-war protests may have some relevence, since they are about the lives, and vaguely similar in nature to the Irish protests that this garden represents, but that doesn't excuse them for littering the place.

as has been already mentioned the use of the garden of remembrance is more to do with its location and the fact that it is well known

Which pretty much trashes every point you made about it being the chosen location as a tribute to the martyrs of 1916, and indeed all the others who died for Ireland. I agree that it was chosen because of its location. What we seem to disagree on is that matter of whether choosing the Garden of Rememberance, because of its location is excusable, or not.

as i have already said these people fought and died for Irish freedom the exercise of that freedom in political protest in no way diminishes what these people fought for it if anything it highlights it and in a way celebrates it

Good Point. Political protests don't diminish what they fought for per se, but when the political protest is about something as ridicules, and trivial as whether or not the rest of the country should pay for the collection of Dublins waste, then not only does it diminish what they stood for, but it actively degrades, not only the martyrs, but any general respect for being Irish.

the protests are not insignificant compared to national freedom protest is part of our national freedom

These particular protests are insignificant. If you had the choice between soldiers coming everyday to attack and intimidate you, perhaps rape/murder some of your family, but bring away your waste free of charge, and a free country, like we have now, where you have to pay for a waste collection charges which would you pick? Have a think about it, and let me know if you think free rubbish collection is remotely significant compared to national freedom.

cdebru

aolXFT wrote:

I'm not suggesting that they claim the allegience of James Connolly. I'm suggesting that they are associating the Garden of Remembrance with their totally unrelated protest. They are abusing the Garden, because of its location. It's like when the traders set up market in the church, and Jesus, came and kicked them out, because they were abusing the house of God.


I guess that is where we differ. I wouldn't use the term pedestal, but I certainly would consider them with a much higher level of respect than I would those, protesting, with nothing to worry them other than having to pay for their rubbish collection.

The anti-war protests may have some relevence, since they are about the lives, and vaguely similar in nature to the Irish protests that this garden represents, but that doesn't excuse them for littering the place.


Which pretty much trashes every point you made about it being the chosen location as a tribute to the martyrs of 1916, and indeed all the others who died for Ireland. I agree that it was chosen because of its location. What we seem to disagree on is that matter of whether choosing the Garden of Rememberance, because of its location is excusable, or not.



Good Point. Political protests don't diminish what they fought for per se, but when the political protest is about something as ridicules, and trivial as whether or not the rest of the country should pay for the collection of Dublins waste, then not only does it diminish what they stood for, but it actively degrades, not only the martyrs, but any general respect for being Irish.



These particular protests are insignificant. If you had the choice between soldiers coming everyday to attack and intimidate you, perhaps rape/murder some of your family, but bring away your waste free of charge, and a free country, like we have now, where you have to pay for a waste collection charges which would you pick? Have a think about it, and let me know if you think free rubbish collection is remotely significant compared to national freedom.

i think you are being a bit to pius about it i honestly dont see how starting a protest about bins or a road or an industrial dispute from the garden of remembrance diminishes what they fought and died for

of course national freedom is more important but part of your national freedom is the right to protest about whatever youwant to protest about

littering the garden is a different matter and is disrespectful but not a protest


i have never seen a protest start in the garden of remembrance they start outside it because it is a landmark

bonkey

aolXFT wrote:

They are abusing the Garden, because of its location.

As a matter of interest...is there any current protest that you agree with? If so, would you have an issue with that protest making use of the Garden because of its location?

jc

Victor

The only particular points I would object to here would be putting the posters on the railings or using the park itself as an assembly point.

aolXFT

cdebru wrote:

i think you are being a bit to pius about it i honestly dont see how starting a protest about bins or a road or an industrial dispute from the garden of remembrance diminishes what they fought and died for

Then I guess that is simply a difference between us. I find using people, especially our martyrs disrespectful. I have a problem in using our Martyrs by associating them with an insignificant, and unrelated protest, but then maybe that's just me.

of course national freedom is more important but part of your national freedom is the right to protest about whatever youwant to protest about

I think we've covered this already. Just to recap, there are plenty of other places to where you can start a protest from, that aren't memorials for our country.

littering the garden is a different matter and is disrespectful but not a protest

Putting banners on the gates of the garden, saying 'no to war', and related slogans, aren't forms of protest? Explain please?

i have never seen a protest start in the garden of remembrance they start outside it because it is a landmark

It wouldn't be such a landmark if it wasn't a memorial. See my point on using people.

bonkey wrote:

As a matter of interest...is there any current protest that you agree with? If so, would you have an issue with that protest making use of the Garden because of its location?

Hmmm, the only current protests I can think of, are the bin-charges, war in Iraq, and 'no-3G masts'. I don't actually agree with any of them, but I'd require a lot of reading, and research, before condeming the anti-3G protest(even though I'm in favour of 3G masts). Health, is not an insignificant issue, even when compared to freedom.

cdebru

aolXFT wrote:

Putting banners on the gates of the garden, saying 'no to war', and related slogans, aren't forms of protest? Explain please?

just badly phrased

putting poster on the fence and gates into the park is disrespectful

starting a protest from outside and using the outside of the park as a rallying point is not disrespectful IMO