How feasible are my Classic Car Plans???

blobert

Hello,

As a 25 year old male driver who has just passed his test I'm looking at getting a classic car as a cheap driving option. I initially thought that I would be turned down for insurance but having written to First Ireland, it seems they might in fact give me a policy on a classic car as my sole vehicle:

You are correct in stating we do classic cars as one's only vehicle. The
mileage is restricted to 10000 miles a year.

You qualify for the scheme once you can prove a least 1 yrs named
driving. You must be 25+ with a full licence.

The vehicle must be 20 years old. Due to your age any form of sports car
would not be excepted. eg Porsche etc.

You must also join a classic car club.

Anyway, I was hoping for some advice about getting a cheap and reliable classic (if such a thing exists). Is it feasible to buy a 30 year old car for a few thousand that I can use as a daily driver or does such a thing not exist?

While there are several classic cars I really like the look of such as the VW Karmann Khia:

http://www.karmann-ghia.org/photo2/svw97-2.jpg or
http://www.karmann-ghia.org/photo2/svw97-3.jpg

or even the old Fiat 500:

http://www.plotnek.com/jonothan/images/Outside_the_Paddocks_Hotel.jpg

These might not make great every day cars though, and I dont want something that would take a lot of work. I know next to nothing about cars.

I drove a 25 year old Mercedes 240D before, when living in the states, it wasn't much fun but those things seem to last for ever so might be a wise choice.

Anyway, to bring an end to my rambling, do you think it possible that I can find a 30 year old car that is fairly cheap, will work pretty much every day, and require minimal maintenance?

I'd really appreciate any advice on the matter,
Thanks in advance,
Robert

Alfasudcrazy

What's your budget?

blobert

The cheaper the better I suppose. Ideally under €3000 but up to about €5000. Probably not going to be able to get much for that, I know!

Alfasudcrazy

What about this - my Peugeot 504. Its a 1977 L with only 41,000 on the clock from new and starts first time every time. Its a four speed manual with no rust. It has a 1.8 petrol engine but is quite economical.
I have too many classics at the moment and am trying to trim them back a little. :rolleyes:
I will only accept 4,000 euros for it though as it is a very comfortable entertaining car

blobert

Thanks for the help. I think my Dad might have had one of them in the past, I have vague memories of it.

Seeing as this car is from 1977 it wont qualify as a classic and I'll have to pay road tax each year, which I don't really want to.

That said, the insurance company class anything over 20 years as a classic so perhaps I'd be better off getting an 1984-85 car and pay the extra each year for the tax? Is a 20 year old car going to be a lot better than a 30 year old one?

Thanks

Alfasudcrazy

If you are thinking of a 30 year old car - the UK is the only place to go. Look at the ebay (classic car) site
http://motors.listings.ebay.co.uk/Classic-Cars_W0QQfromZR0Q3fssPageNameQ3dUKMHP1Q3aSCLSQQsacatZ29751QQsocmdZListingItemList
There is no real relationship with age and quality once you go over 10 years. It just down to how well cared for the cars were. A useful guide to quality is the number of previous owners the car has had - the less the better (usually but not always).
If you are not sure about cars be sure to have someone who is with you before you part with the readies

blobert

Thanks for the tip.

I quite like the look of this, any opinions???

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=31357&item=4536331207&rd=1

Alfasudcrazy

blobert wrote:

Thanks for the tip.

I quite like the look of this, any opinions???

Nice choice - a really cool classic - your insurance might class this as a sports car though.
I always go for cars with a current MOT and tax - he does not say why exactly this car does not have an mot and is vague enough about the car generally - be sure to ask him a lot of questions. This car is cheap but expect to spend at least 1,000 euros to get it roadworthy - and as its not driving you wil have to pay for it to be transported over here. Over 30 so no VRT is payable. The pics are very dark - ask him to send more clearer pics by e mail. If the body is good it might be worth it

ds20prefecture

blobert wrote:

Anyway, I was hoping for some advice about getting a cheap and reliable classic (if such a thing exists). Is it feasible to buy a 30 year old car for a few thousand that I can use as a daily driver or does such a thing not exist?

While there are several classic cars I really like the look of such as the VW Karmann Khia:

http://www.karmann-ghia.org/photo2/svw97-2.jpg or
http://www.karmann-ghia.org/photo2/svw97-3.jpg

Have you driven one of these? They are a lovely looking car, with a nice retro interior but for me the driving experience is all wrong. Brakes are approximate at best, acceleration is glacial and the ride is quite harsh. The looks suggest something more accomplished. Also, you'd be very lucky to get anything worth owning for less than 5000. Having said that, I know a guy who runs one as his daily driver - they are quite reliable. They are very simple mechanically, which makes them easy (cheap) to maintain.

or even the old Fiat 500:
http://www.plotnek.com/jonothan/images/Outside_the_Paddocks_Hotel.jpg

These are a truly excellent car. Not for the open road, but a great city car. They didn't sell 5m of them just because they were cheap. Oh, and they're not cheap anymore. Prepare to spend over 5000 for a clean example.

These might not make great every day cars though, and I dont want something that would take a lot of work. I know next to nothing about cars.

Ah. You will! Any car is an amazingly complex piece of machinery, and any 30 year old machine will need constant maintenance and care to stay in good working condition. Make sure that good/trusted maintenance is available locally for whatever model you will buy.

I'm inclined to agree that neither of these would make good daily transport. If you confine yourself to the city, you won't regret a 500 but that seems a bit of a restriction. FYI: Their top speed is less than 70mph.

do you think it possible that I can find a 30 year old car that is fairly cheap, will work pretty much every day, and require minimal maintenance?

Absolutely it is. I reckon that classics that are used daily are more reliable than those that are kept in garages and only driven occasionally. I've put about 20000km on my 32 year old DS in the last 2 years without a single problem. I did 6000 of these in two weeks on a very enjoyable continental trip, without a hitch. I did have some teething trouble with the car, but it had been sitting for about 18months before I got it. Once the cobwebs were blown away she ran like a dream.

I would be inclined to spend a bit more initially to ensure you get something in excellent condition. Research each of your model choices carefully. Use internet discussion groups for the car you are interested in: Yahoo have lots for most makes. Try to buy from someone you trust, and make sure you get a specialist in your chosen car to inspect before you buy. Don't rely solely on the word of those selling the car, particularly if they are selling on someone else's behalf. They may be honest and true, but they are selling. Pay some independant 3rd party to do an objective assessment of the car - this really is money well spent. Personally I would rather buy from a private seller (in a club, for e.g.) than a dealer/agent. Dealers promise a lot, but in my experience deliver little. Think about it: if someone has built up an identity in a small club, they would have a lot more to lose if they sold you a dud.

Don't rush into this or you will almost certainly be burned (I was). If this is your first classic, don't buy a restoration project (like that BMW). You'll never recoup the money you put into making it right, so better for someone else to make that loss. Be patient - your car is out there, it's just a matter of finding it.

Kersh

A 20 year old car doesnt qualify for classic tax. It has to be 30. The Karmanns are supposed to be lovely,
Did they give a definitive list as to what a sports car is?

blobert

I'm not sure what they class a sports car as, but I assume muscle cars are out of the question. Are there any cars that are considered reliable as classics or is it very much a case of just finding a good example of any old car?

And by the way, if I were to buy a car from the UK would it be safe enough for me to drive back to Ireland (via ferry) or am I likely to get busted for driving an uninsured, untaxed car?

Thanks for all the advice, keep it coming..

mr potato head

I bought a car in the UK during the summer I flew over to collect it and drove it back, but got the insurance transfered from my dads car which i'm insured on... the car also had current tax so that made it very handy.
Thats where the buying a car that has the MOT and tax and is on the road saves hassle and money. Don't know about chancing going without tax and insurance a van and trailer might be a better option if possible although it's expensive.
I'm 23 so i'm new at the getting classics from the uk as well and i enjoyed the process of driving it across the uk.

Paul (MN)

I bought a W123 Mercedes 200T (estate) as it was in good condition and they are reliable and easy to maintain. I have had it for 6 months and about 6k miles with no issues. Daily driver.

If I was offered the right price I would consider selling it and then get myself an older Merc.

Pics attached.

blobert

Thanks Paul,
While I'm not too concerned with the appearance of the car I get, I just couldn't bring myself to buy an estate, I just hate the way they look. It looks like its in very good condition though, I'm sure you'll be able to find a buyer quite easily.

Alfasudcrazy

blobert wrote:

if I were to buy a car from the UK would it be safe enough for me to drive back to Ireland (via ferry) or am I likely to get busted for driving an uninsured, untaxed car?QUOTE]

A very definite NO - as a young driver you are highly likely to be stopped along the way - and your chances of being checked by the police at the port would be very high. :eek:
Anyway the ebay add for the BMW stated that the rear brakes were jammed. :rolleyes:
I doubt if you will have any option other than to have whatever car you buy transported back for you - since you have no existing policy to use as a transfer - even if you do/did it is highly unlikely your insurance co will agree to it.
I can transport cars from UK for you for 400 euros (excluding ferry charges) - I have my own transporter

ds20prefecture

I think you can purchase temporary insurance to cover you 3rd party on any car anywhere in the EU - I think it's quite expensive though at about €100 per day.

I think that as this is your first classic (first car?) you should only buy something that is roadworthy enough to make the drive home from anywhere in Europe. The shipping can be very expensive, and your car can be damaged on the boat too. Also, you'd miss the trip of a lifetime.

Make sure you have a look on the continent as well as the UK - the UK exchange rate doesn't help your purchase price, and the salt on the roads doesn't help the bodywork. LHD is not a big deal - I certainly have no problems with it.

Have you any other ideas for suitable models? How about a 2CV? Or a nice early Alfa (it's a helluva nice drive back from Italy!)?

Interceptor

And if the cops in the UK stop you with an untaxed, unMOT'ed car, they will confiscate it - most eBay ads say that because the car is untaxed it has to be trailered away.

Karmann Ghia achieves high price due to classic status - they are the same as driving a Beetle and require constant (expensive) maintenance. The Fiat 500 is also very expensive due to the demand for them and €5000 will get a good one, but you will still have to treat it with care - all classics regardless of whether Merc or Mini had less technically advanced materials so parts rusted, or parts wore quickly.

I have used several 'classics' as daily drivers but have been left on the side of the road more times than I care to count as a result of 'quirks'. Think long and hard and consider a MkI Fiesta XR2, Chrysler Sunbeam, Vauxhall Viva bought in from the UK rather than the more common 'classic' cars which achieve high premiums.

'c

Alfacrazy - I have mailed the 504 pic to someone who might be interested, please pm me a list of other cars you have for sale.

camarobill

Alfasudcrazy wrote:

blobert wrote:

if I were to buy a car from the UK would it be safe enough for me to drive back to Ireland (via ferry) or am I likely to get busted for driving an uninsured, untaxed car?QUOTE]

A very definite NO - as a young driver you are highly likely to be stopped along the way - and your chances of being checked by the police at the port would be very high. :eek:
Anyway the ebay add for the BMW stated that the rear brakes were jammed. :rolleyes:
I doubt if you will have any option other than to have whatever car you buy transported back for you - since you have no existing policy to use as a transfer - even if you do/did it is highly unlikely your insurance co will agree to it.
I can transport cars from UK for you for 400 euros (excluding ferry charges) - I have my own transporter

transporter is that price from anywhere in the uk to anywhere in ireland

BrianD3

Buying and running a classic is a bit of a minefield and you will have to do your homework. You should be reading classic magazines like Practical Classics and also mags like Car Mechanics to get a feel for the situation. Alos, try to get in touch with classic car clubs and go to classic car shows and try to talk to some owners. You'll pick up a lot of useful info this way.

Anyhow I'd say you should definitely go for a 30 year old car rather than a newer one. Tax is something like 80 quid a year (no matter what the engine size) and you're exempt from the NCT. As already stated, once cars reach a certain age (about 15 years old) age starts to become irrelevant and condition and how the vehicle has been looked after is what's important.

One car that could fit the bill is a Rover P6. These were very advanced for their day and therefore feel quite modern now. They are not nearly as fashionable as a lot of other classics so prices are not too bad. There are plenty of these being used as daily drivers in the UK and while many cars may be a bit tatty they'd be structurally and mechanically sound. Whereas a lot of the more fashionable classics are "tarted up" and sold to gullible buyers who are buying on a whim and may not examine closely enough to see that the car is a rust bucket/deathtrap underneath.

BrianD3

blobert

I do quite like the look of the Rover in black:
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=29759&item=4536323013&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW

With a V8 engine like that I'd imagine the mpg wouldn't be too great!

BrianD3

The P6 is available with a 2 litre 4 cylinder engine too, however it's not terribly economical either. I'd say you'd be looking at 18 mpg from the 3.5 and 25-26 mpg from the 2 litre. A lot of classic cars don't seem to be very economical compared to modern equivalents. This is probably due to less efficent engines and poorer aerodynamics in the older cars.

Anyhow, the P6 3500 is a very nice car and if you heard how that V8 sounds and felt the effortless power/torque I'd say you'd be hooked! 0-60 takes around 9 seconds.

BrianD3

Alfasudcrazy

camarobill wrote:

Alfasudcrazy wrote:

transporter is that price from anywhere in the uk to anywhere in ireland

Yes - from any of the main centers - if it up at the top of Scotland or Donegal or something - I would have to take out my calculator out again

Cars must be able to drive on their own power onto the transporter though

Silvera

blobert,

Is an MGB GT (i.e. hatchback) considered a "sportscar" by your ins company ?
If not, I believe it would be a good car to buy because :

- Sporty car (looks and to drive)
- Loads available for sale
- Easy to get parts here or in the UK
- Easy to maintain
- Lots of manuals, books available
...........an ideal first classic !

But, as with all classics, buy the best one you can afford !!


(P.S. - Don't even consider driving without insurance. Even if you are not stopped by the police, imagine the costs if you were involved in an accident - That's how I view it !)

ds20prefecture

blobert wrote:

I do quite like the look of the Rover in black:
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=29759&item=4536323013&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW

With a V8 engine like that I'd imagine the mpg wouldn't be too great!

My friend ran one of these for a while. Great car - that engine is lovely, nice leather and unitary construction means panel repairs are a doddle.

He bought his Brown over beige '75 for £4000. It was pristine - I couldn't find any rust at all, and the body was perfect. Great car to drive - its about 170bhp with lots of torque and rear wheel drive. Image is either ganster-cool or "the Gaffer" ( you probably don't remeber that show). The dash is a bit dated.

My friend sold the car for about €4500 after 6 months. He just didn't click with the car at all. Strange, I thought it was really nice and it would make a great daily driver.

Economy on most classics is very poor compared to modern cars. I average less than 20mpg out of my 2 litre DS - he was getting about 25mpg from the 3.5 V8 Rover!

ds20prefecture

blobert wrote:

I do quite like the look of the Rover in black:
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=29759&item=4536323013&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW

With a V8 engine like that I'd imagine the mpg wouldn't be too great!

Great looking car, but I reckon you'd be buying a project there. That kink in the bonnet and the fact that it was a prop in a film would have me worried. It certainly looks clean, but bear in mind that photos are always very kind to a car.

One thing worth remembering: The UK do not have a rolling 30 years for classic tax, so a 1975 car is taxed at the full rate of a 3.5l high emissions car. UK only have tax breaks before 1/1/1973. Here in Ireland, it will cost you €42 per year to tax it, and €50 to import it. So you might be able to pick up a lovely Series 2 XJ6 for good money over there.

blobert

Silvera wrote:

Is an MGB GT (i.e. hatchback) considered a "sportscar" by your ins company ?
If not, I believe it would be a good car to buy because :

- Sporty car (looks and to drive)
- Loads available for sale
- Easy to get parts here or in the UK
- Easy to maintain
- Lots of manuals, books available
...........an ideal first classic !

But, as with all classics, buy the best one you can afford !!

This might be a good option after all. The Rover looks like a bit of a monster of a car, I'd imagine the MGB would be a bit easier on the petrol. I also find smaller cars more fun to drive.

Is the Gt a reliable car (assuming I got one in good condition to begin with). I assume they must be as there are still plenty of old MGs still around on the roads. What year did they bring in those horrible black plastic bumpers incidently, I would have to avoid them...


Thanks so much for all the continued advice and info by the way, I really appreciate it.

Alfasudcrazy

I have to say that I am not a fan of the MG in roadster or GT fastback form. Too fuddy duddy if you know what I mean. You will have all the disadvantages of owning a classic without any of the benefits. These cars are as dull as they come and will not turn any heads - who wants that.

Look what I have found on Ebay now - I know its not over 30 and there will be a bit of VRT and its at the top end of your budget but if you want a reliable classic that will not let you down, will hold its value and turn plenty of heads you could not do better than this unbelievable beauty.

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=18303&item=4535545743&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW

Oops - its an automatic - that could put a damper on it though

ds20prefecture

Alfasudcrazy wrote:

Look what I have found on Ebay now - I know its not over 30 and there will be a bit of VRT and its at the top end of your budget but if you want a reliable classic that will not let you down, will hold its value and turn plenty of heads you could not do better than this unbelievable beauty.

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=18303&item=4535545743&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW

What a find! That's got everything you are looking for, except tax exempt. In 5 years you'll have low tax, and in the meantime it's only a 1.6. Your VRT would be €315, according to the revenue calculator. Will your insurance class it as a sportscar?

If you need someone to inspect PM me, I can put you in touch with a good guy in the area. He'll probably look for a few bob, but it would be worth it. He was one of the development engineers at Lotus, so I think he knows his stuff!

shagman

If I'm right in saying that you are going for this car as your sole vehicle then you will have to insure with First Ireland under their 10'000 mile policy as all other policies require a second car. I think they have 3 bands of quote depending on engine capacity my mate pays €465 I think on his 1.8L Ford Consul and I'm paying €850 for my 3L V6 scimitar. (Rodge stop lurking and post if I'm wrong on this). Heres a few other cars which I was considering as my daily driver before I setled on the Reliant Scimitar,.......volvo p1800 or p1800es, toyota celica gt , datsun 240Z, opel gt1900, triumph gt6. Allthough the scimitar and volvo p1800ES are both estates I wouldn't dismiss them before you've seen what they look like, as they are a far cry from the typical long boxy hearse-like barge that you usually associate with the term estate.
Practical classics magazine is as mentioned earlier your best bet that is after all what you are looking for.Good luck hope you find a winner.

blobert

Thanks for the advice Shagman, I'll write to First Ireland again to make sure about the different insurance costs. I'll also see what cars they'd be willing to let me have as a dangerous young boy racer.

I've been looking at lots of the MGB GTs from the early 70's. There seem to be a lot of them available at fairly low prices, and while they do look quite fuddy duddyish as one of you put it, I still think they look nicer than a lot of the alternatives (VW Scirocco, Rover P6, Datsun 240Z etc all look a bit bulky and blocky for my tastes). I do like the look of the BMW 2002 but it seems as though they are quite expensive. The Volvo P1800 looks great too, but I assume they are quite pricey also and rare.

Would the MGB GT be any fun to drive (I have never driven one)? Opinion seems quite evenly divided on these cars wherever I have looked on the web.

Oh, and can anyone tell me where to get this Practical Classics Magazine, is it available in Dublin? And if anyone could recommend some European Classic Car Sellers Websites to look through, I'd appreciate it also. My own search only resulted in finding a few dutch classic car sites that were'nt too great in their selection....

Thanks

ds20prefecture

blobert wrote:

(VW Scirocco, Rover P6, Datsun 240Z etc all look a bit bulky and blocky for my tastes). I do like the look of the BMW 2002 but it seems as though they are quite expensive. The Volvo P1800 looks great too, but I assume they are quite pricey also and rare.

So it's curves you're after, eh? How about one of these



At 5-6k you're into danger territory but they are basically quite reliable cars. I've put 20000km on this one without a hitch.

I really think you've missed a big opportunity with that Scirocco. It's crying out to be a daily driver rather than some garage princess.

I don't know if you've seen these sites, and I've no personal experience so this is no recommendation.
http://www.europexpo.com/fr/3/periode.htm - nice little 500 in there
http://www.novaweb.fr/search.php
http://www.delest.nl/indexnew.html?main=/html/voorraadlijst.html
http://www.quaidejavel.com - for all things Citroën
http://www.losson.com - for all things DS
http://www.klassik-garage.de - good for smaller cars, like the 500

shagman

The datsun 240Z is hardly big and blocky think you might have looked at something else. PRACTICAL CLASSICS is in Easons or luckys in dunlaoghaire have it too and a few other places I'm sure.
I have just started driving the scimitar after finally insuring and registering it and bloody hell it's fun ,it's had a few mods done to it (new manifold , adjustable gas shocks, high lift cam etc) and drives like a big go kart....very torquey, tail happy when ya gun it and the V6 sounds grrrrreat.....I am a happy man .
As I said before not your typical estate.



And heres the Datsun 240Z

shagman

Oh yeah forgot to mention I actually saw a scirocco on the M50 yesterday didn't look well cared for though a bit tatty so probably was a daily driver suffering from the Irish winter. Personally I'd agree a bit to boxy for my liking too. Heres another shot of the datsun

Also I'm sure you'd like the Opel GT1900 not your typical opel more like a mini corvette....theres a project one for sale in dublin at the moment but I guess it'd be a bit af a stretch given your circumstances maybe put it down as your second car

Silvera

blobert,

I still reckon that an MGB is the best choice for you - especially as a first classic.

For a car that will be used daily, it's important to be able to get parts easily and relatively cheaply. (Dozens of companies supply MG parts in the North and UK. There are several MG specialists in Ireland - see my Suppliers thread).
Servicing is also DIY-friendly on MG - the same engine is used in many BL cars.

Why not contact the Irish MG Club (see my Clubs thread) and ask their advice - who knows, maybe a member will let you have a spin in an MG ?!

Provided your insurance co will quote you that is !


Practical Classics is a monthly magazine and may not be on the shelves just now.
You could also get 'Classics Monthly', I bought a copy in Easons a few days ago.

Also, check out this excellent website - www.oldclassiccar.co.uk - it's full of info on buying, running, fixing.....classics.

Hope this helps

Silvera.

rooferPete

Hi blobert,

You have been given some great advice by the all who posted, the BMW looked great but when you see a couple of "Minor" problems beware.

Any UK car must have an MOT to be driven on the road, a minor radiator problem might be fixed by soldering ?

Brake drum seized ? no MOT ? just 3 items that if looked after would easily double the value of a car like that, if you intend buying off eBay I suggest you look for what is not said.

With a budget at €5,000-00 you could find a small 1.4 in aceptable condition and insure it for around €2,000-00, that means you have about €2,500 > €3,000 to spend on a car.

I have been bitten by the classic bug but unless you have the skills or the time to learn they can work out very expensive, that is why the insurance can be lower, the insurance companies know that anyone who looks after a car like the Mini posted is not going to abuse it.

Best of luck with your search, we have all been there with our first car .

blobert

I got myself a copy of "Practical Classics" and "Classic Cars" Magazine as suggested, both good reads.

I think I'll go for the MGB GT or BMW 2002, both seem like quite good choices.
There seem to be a wide range of MG's available, here in Ireland and in the UK.

I quite like the look of this one, though I suspect the price will go a lot higher:

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=4540782585&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT

I also found a good uk site for BMW 2002's:

http://www.bmw2002.co.uk/forsale.htm


I'm going to have to try to find some of these for sale in Ireland to test drive first to see which I prefer (I prefer the BMW in appearance anyway)

Does anyone know anything about the Hillman Imp. Practical Classics magazine seems to think its a great buy, but I'm not so sure

http://www.dial60.freeserve.co.uk/dsc00017.jpg


Thanks for your continued advice..

Eoin

Maybe I missed a post, but I can't believe no one has suggested a mini cooper :eek: Absolutely cracking car to drive, parts are cheap and easy to fit. There are loads and loads you can pick up in the UK, and probably a few over here as well (Rodney Evans motors in Delgany is a mini specialist / enthusiast and normally has a few around).

blobert

I do like minis but, much like the Karmann Ghia or Fiat 500, I figured they were a bit over priced seeing as they are popular.

I'll have a look though and see what I can find.