TDs get primary school invite to reduce nation's class size

ishmael whale

The issue of class sizes seems to perpertually bubble away. It should be hauled out every time there’s a dumb ass proposal of the e voting/western rail corridor type as an example of where resources should be going.

In fact, it should be pulled out of the bag when there's any suggestion that the State should hand out large sums of money, even for less dumb ass reasons. A simple test for any proposal is 'why is this more important than reducing class sizes."

http://www.unison.ie/irish_independent/stories.php3?ca=9&si=1362587&issue_id=12236

TDs get primary school invite to reduce nation's class size
TDs and Senators from all over the country are back in schools this week - to get a lesson in class size.
Almost every public representative has been invited to a meeting of teachers and parents in a school in their constituency, organised by the Irish National Teachers Organisation (INTO). The INTO is urging them to raise the matter of reducing class sizes within their parliamentary parties and with Education Minister Mary Hanafin. Average class sizes in Ireland are the second highest in the EU, at 24.2:1, after the UK's 26:1.
There is a government commitment to reduce class size to below international best practice of 20:1, but there has been no reduction in class size in primary schools for the last four years. Kildare, Dublin and Meath have the highest average classes and meeting the commitment in these counties will require an average reduction of seven pupils per class.
According to the INTO, figures for average class size masks the reality in a large number of schools where classes can be as high as 35.

ArthurDent

The meeting in our area was held yesterday, the principals of all the local primary schools (around 10) turned up and the following was the representation from the politicians:

1 labour senator and
1 independent councillor

no-one from either of the Government parties even bothered their ar*e to show up. Show where their priority lies on this subject. :mad:

Victor

But won't adding TDs to a class increase the class size? And reduce the IQ?

sceptre

ishmael whale wrote:

According to the INTO, figures for average class size masks the reality in a large number of schools where classes can be as high as 35.

When I was in first class (1981/82) it was a class of 40. 36 in second class and had dropped to 28 by sixth class (there were three sixth classes as opposed to one first class and two in the other years). Normal Co Cork town. The last figure is above the average but the first one is above the INTO's "wow, bejaysus" figure. Does this mean that class sizes have actually dropped since I was learning how to subtract?

(My girlfriend, being from the country country where the pubs stay open and the cops phone in advance to find out if they're open before travelling the twenty miles was obviously in a tiny class to balance the figures out. About ten of them I think scattered across the different years)

Victor

sceptre wrote:

When I was in first class (1981/82) it was a class of 40.

Privileged brat, there were 48 in my sixth class.... and we had to eat coal....

sceptre wrote:

When I was in first class (1981/82) it was a class of 40. 36 in second class and had dropped to 28 by sixth class (there were three sixth classes as opposed to one first class and two in the other years).

Raiding from Limerick border tribes again?

whobrokethat

I disagree that the western rail corridor is a "dumb ass proposal". Anyone familiar with the drive from south Mayo to Galway and back will realise that a proper commuter service would succeed handsomely and take enormous numbers of polluting vehicles off the road. It might even mean reduced need for bypasses and reduced capital expenditure on roads.

ishmael whale

sceptre wrote:

Does this mean that class sizes have actually dropped since I was learning how to subtract?.

I have a feeling that class sizes are capped at 35 – I have no idea how long this is the case. We do have the OECD survey that points out that our education standards are mediocre. Class size might only be one factor in this, but it doesn’t take a great leap of the imagination to see a link.

whobrokethat wrote:

I disagree that the western rail corridor is a "dumb ass proposal". Anyone familiar with the drive from south Mayo to Galway and back will realise that a proper commuter service would succeed handsomely and take enormous numbers of polluting vehicles off the road. ....

Anyone familiar with the population density along the route of the proposed rail line, and with the lack of any time advantage offered by the proposed service, will know that it will fail to offer any real alternative to road and hence fail to achieve any of the benefits normally associated with rail.

Might I also say how delighted I am that you took time off from discussing the quality of education offered to the nation's children to defend this proposed white elephant. You are sort of illustrating the point I’m making.

bonkey

sceptre wrote:

Does this mean that class sizes have actually dropped since I was learning how to subtract?

Thats exactly what I was thinking too...although I would have been a handful of years in front of you.You young whippersnapper

ishmaelwhale wrote:

We do have the OECD survey that points out that our education standards are mediocre. Class size might only be one factor in this, but it doesn’t take a great leap of the imagination to see a link.

A link, sure...but weren't you just pointing out the need to look at the picture in detail with regards to a white-elephant project in order to show how questionable its use really is?

I would imagine a better determinant of the importance of class-size would be whether or not a correlation can be shown to exist between class sizes and the quality of education over (say) the last 25 years. Class sizes have dropped, then held steady, and I've no doubt that in some cases, they've risen again. Has the quality of our education been noticeably influenced in this time? (although I admit finding a yardstick is problematic).

I'm not versed in the full spectrum of problems facing the current education system, and recognise that changing social and cultural landscapes will have an effect....but I can't help but think that if standards have fallen, they've either done so incredibly rapidly since class sizes stopped shrinking, or were falling as class sizes shrank. Neither of those situations (if correct...like I said...its a feeling) would suggest to me that class sizes are the main cause of the problems facing our education system, and I can't help but wonder whether or not, therefore, they would - or should - be a first port of call when looking at improvement through additional funding.

They may well be...but my immediate instinct would be to say "show me how".

jc

ishmael whale

The fact that we have larger than normal class sizes and mediocre educational attainment may be utterly accidental. But, in truth, I think this belongs to the category of ‘possible’ rather than ‘probable’.

That said I totally accept that class size is hardly the only factor determining quality. I’d guess the key factors probably involve class size, syllabus and expertise of the teaching profession.

People have raised the fact that many primary teachers are unqualified. The syllabus has been revisited reasonably recently, but then it retains a strong role for the Irish language which may be interfering with the ability of the system as a whole to achieve. Either of these might explain our mediocre achievement.

Class size might be no more than a handy rule of thumb, giving a quick indication of how generous our educational provision is relative to other countries. But, for as long as that quick rule of thumb suggests our educational provision is too low and when that indication is backed by an OECD survey confirming mediocre educational achievement, then I do feel competing projects need to demonstrate that they deliver some necessary benefit.

whobrokethat

ishmael whale wrote:

I have a feeling that class sizes are capped at 35 – I have no idea how long this is the case. We do have the OECD survey that points out that our education standards are mediocre. Class size might only be one factor in this, but it doesn’t take a great leap of the imagination to see a link.



Anyone familiar with the population density along the route of the proposed rail line, and with the lack of any time advantage offered by the proposed service, will know that it will fail to offer any real alternative to road and hence fail to achieve any of the benefits normally associated with rail.

Might I also say how delighted I am that you took time off from discussing the quality of education offered to the nation's children to defend this proposed white elephant. You are sort of illustrating the point I’m making.

Missing the point. Commuter density is the point. If you drove the road you would know what I was talking about. A non stop train service from Tuam to Galway (there is nowhere for it to stop) would take maybe 15 mins. By car at rush hour that journey by car would take from 1 hour to an hour and a half. The benefits are very clear.
I took time off the topic to reply to some tranchant analysis of the proposal. I think the analysis was to call it "dumb ass".

sceptre

whobrokethat wrote:

Commuter density is the point.

Not the point of this thread though I'm afraid (feel free to start a new one on the western rail corridor though now or at any time in the future - there are a few recent ones on the Commuting/Transport board btw but as it's a political footb^H^H^H^H^Hhot potato significant aspects of it can well be relevant on this board as well) so let's please stick vaguely to the original topic in this thread.

(I could just as easily quote ishmael's post instead of yours as he almost invited this WRC debate in the school thread by mentioning it in the first place)

ishmael whale

sceptre wrote:

(I could just as easily quote ishmael's post instead of yours as he almost invited this WRC debate in the school thread by mentioning it in the first place)

It’s a far cop, and I won’t allege that all I said was that piece of halibut was fit for Jehovah. My main point is simply that ephemeral issues (take your pick) seem to climb up the national agenda where more substantive issues such as education and management of the health services just bubble away, as if they were as controllable as the weather.