Top Clubs demand right of passage to knockout stages

p.pete

smemon wrote:

again, people having a dig at utd fans, above 4 or 5 posts uncalled for and provoking utd fans imo. whilst it might be all harmless and non-intentional it doesnt go down well with utd fans.

Has the official supporters club expressed a view-point? It's funny this comes in the same news-week as united's profit announcements

thejollyrodger

and how does it show that?

The main difference is attitute. The big clubs like Juve, Real Madrid etc look at the competition as follows : -

Were aiming to WIN this competition. To win were going to have to beat all the tough teams. We MAY be lucky and draw a weaker team on the way but thats a side issue. They preparing to play and beat all the other TOP teams.

The way Man Utd and Arsenal seem to be looking at the competition is : -

Try to stay in the competition as long as possible to make the most money, look for the easy draw. And who knows, we may even end up in the Final.

No offense to Man Utd or Arsenal. Its just the sh1t league their playing in.

p.pete

Great post thejollyrodger - if United considered themselves good enough to win the competition, which they surely must do in light of this whole news story, then playing AC Milan shouldn't be a problem. At some stage or another you're going to have to play and beat either AC Milan or a team capable to beating AC Milan. If you want to win you have to be able to beat them all.

Ardent

Uefa have laughed off calls to restructure the format of the UEFA Champions League by introducing a seedings system for the knockout rounds.
Manchester United chief executive David Gill and Arsenal manager Arsene Wenger have been leading the clamour to alter the competition.
Gill and Wenger had voiced their concern that too many big clubs were falling by the wayside at the first knockout round, a fate which has befallen both United and Arsenal this season.
United supremo Gill had suggested that Uefa should introduce a tennis-style system whereby the top ranked team would play the lowest ranked team in the last 16 and so on.
But Uefa have rubbished any notion of changing the present format, with the element of surprise and fair play behind their dismissal of the suggestions.
"Uefa are always willing to listen to what clubs have to say but David Gill's plans would turn the competition into a bit of a joke," said Uefa's director of communications William Gaillard.
"The idea of seeding clubs beyond the group stages goes beyond all principles of a sporting event.
"Are United saying that they want to turn the Champions League into a static competition where the same clubs reach the latter stages every season?
"If that's the case, supporters and TV companies would lose interest straightaway because the competition would become boring.
"The reason why the Champions League is so lucrative to clubs is because the competition is so exciting and full of surprises.
"Introducing seeding that would keep clubs apart would make it boring and result in totally meaningless fixtures during the group stages.
"If Manchester United had won their group then they would not have been drawn against AC Milan in the knockout stage. Maybe they should consider that."

Well in UEFA!! Maybe United should ask for the rules to be changed so if they get beat they actually take the place of the team that knocked them out in the next round.

Töpher

thejollyrodger wrote:

The main difference is attitute. The big clubs like Juve, Real Madrid etc look at the competition as follows : -

Were aiming to WIN this competition. To win were going to have to beat all the tough teams. We MAY be lucky and draw a weaker team on the way but thats a side issue. They preparing to play and beat all the other TOP teams.

The way Man Utd and Arsenal seem to be looking at the competition is : -

Try to stay in the competition as long as possible to make the most money, look for the easy draw. And who knows, we may even end up in the Final.

No offense to Man Utd or Arsenal. Its just the sh1t league their playing in.

Zing.

Spot on.

eirebhoy

smemon wrote:

anything which favours utd in the slightest utd fans will back, OBVIOUSLY. any of you's would back something like this if your club was calling for it.

oh thats where your wrong and its how I don't understand a lot (I didn't say all, didn't even say majority ) of United fans. They just can't lose the bias, its really unbelievable and I'd love some scientist to prove where it comes from. If the Celtic board came up with some ludicrous suggestion to help out the smaller teams in the CL I'd only back it if I felt it was right. You somehow get it into your brain that its a wonderful suggestion but if it was the Arsenal chief exec you'd be laughing at him.

PHB

You see I want a european super league, and this is the closest I'm gona get to it.

p.s. you live in a dream world if you don't think that Juve are out for the money.
Real Madrid and Chelsea are exceptions to the rule, but everythign else is about survival and growth for other clubs. Juve are aiming to beat the top teams, but they want to get the furtherest as possible because thats the money! Its a buisness!

The system I'm advocating is not about the teams that are currently in the compo, and how they'd do, its about rewarding people for their group stages, and ensuring that those teams which did better in the group stages get an easier draw.
Whether they are rich or poor, famous or not is irrelevant, so I dont understand why people keep thinking this is because I want United to go further. I want chance removed as much as possible, thats what I like.

A Dub in Glasgo

PHB wrote:

Whether they are rich or poor, famous or not is irrelevant, so I dont understand why people keep thinking this is because I want United to go further. I want chance removed as much as possible, thats what I like.

Except you are ignoring the little matter of seeded pots. If Man United were not one of the higher seeded teams, you would be not be advocating making it easier for teams that win the group to progress through the knock out phase.

Cup competition is about chance although UEFA have tweaked it to give the big seeded teams the headstart already.

Pigman II

PHB wrote:

p.s. you live in a dream world if you don't think that Juve are out for the money.
Real Madrid and Chelsea are exceptions to the rule, but everythign else is about survival and growth for other clubs. Juve are aiming to beat the top teams, but they want to get the furtherest as possible because thats the money! Its a buisness!

Aren't Juve bankrolled by FIAT or some such? They certainly don't pay the wages with gate reciepts anyway.

PHB

Thats an arguement for changing the seeding system initally.
Man Utd is irrelevant to this, I'd like this in 50 years time when Man Utd might be a conference team.

It means that the top teams go through, and results in 1/4 finals and semis which have the best of the best in them, isntead of them getting knocked out early.
p.s. next year England will surely go down so United could end up as one of the lower seeded teams.


Juve have huge sponsorship from FIAT, much like United have huge sponsorship from vodafone.
If FIAT felt it wasn't good for them to support JUVE, they would drop the sponorship acuse football is a buisness just like evreythign else

Pigman II

PHB wrote:

Juve have huge sponsorship from FIAT, much like United have huge sponsorship from vodafone.
If FIAT felt it wasn't good for them to support JUVE, they would drop the sponorship acuse football is a buisness just like evreythign else

Yeah but United have 'vodafone' emblasened on their jerseys where as Juve don't have 'fiat' as far as I'm aware, which beggars the question 'what are they paying for if not success?'

A Dub in Glasgo

PHB wrote:

p.s. next year England will surely go down so United could end up as one of the lower seeded teams.

Unlikely to affect Man United as they are seeded 3rd. A team just needs to be seeded in the top 8 to go in a group as top seed. If anything, Arsenal may well fall into the 2nd group of seeds.

Seaneh

PHB wrote:

p.s. you live in a dream world if you don't think that Juve are out for the money.
Real Madrid and Chelsea are exceptions to the rule, but everythign else is about survival and growth for other clubs. Juve are aiming to beat the top teams, but they want to get the furtherest as possible because thats the money! Its a buisness!

You live in a dream world if you think juve are broke...

PHB

I'm not saying Juve are broke, just like UNited aren't broke. For crying out loud like, they are a buisness, and they want to make money

Seaneh

PHB wrote:

I'm not saying Juve are broke, just like UNited aren't broke. For crying out loud like, they are a buisness, and they want to make money

Not really.

Juve, Milan and Inter are a posistion where 3 of the richest men in Europe own them and don't really care how much money the clubs lose as long as the fans are happy, they are toys for thier owners.

All 3 clubs are privatley owned by men who have all got a bigger personal fortune than Roman Abramovich.

Slash/ED

You couldn't possibley run Juve at a profit and maintain the level they're at anyway, look at the crowds they get, the must be run at a massive loss. They can only be involved for the success of the club.

PHB

Anyway, this is slightly off the point.
Most clubs in the world have to run the club while maintaining a profit, this finance is a very important issue Which comes above football. THe struggle for all football teams is to stay up

Slash/ED

PHB wrote:

Anyway, this is slightly off the point.
Most clubs in the world have to run the club while maintaining a profit, this finance is a very important issue Which comes above football. THe struggle for all football teams is to stay up

So you want to deprive the financially weaker teams of the chance to earn more money by introducing this seeding system thus the rich get richer and the poor get poorer

abccormac

Why do you want a european superleague? It woul cripple domestic leagues all around around Europe, and by extension do massive damage to the world game. There would be fewer places for top players at the top level of football, and that would mean fewer places for the international players of all the worlds national teams. I'd rather see them award the champions league by drawing somebody's name out of a hat than destroy Serie A, la Liga, the Premiership and the German league overnight. Who would take part in it anyway?

smemon

eirebhoy wrote:

oh thats where your wrong and its how I don't understand a lot (I didn't say all, didn't even say majority ) of United fans. They just can't lose the bias, its really unbelievable and I'd love some scientist to prove where it comes from. If the Celtic board came up with some ludicrous suggestion to help out the smaller teams in the CL I'd only back it if I felt it was right. You somehow get it into your brain that its a wonderful suggestion but if it was the Arsenal chief exec you'd be laughing at him.

if arsenal had suggested it or anyone else for that, we wouldnt have 6 pages on it, nor would we have the anti utd bias that certain people seem to have.

the idea makes sense, you reward the sides that win by seeding them according to how much they win. its not stupid or idiotic, it makes sense and as pointed out happens in other sports.

a random draw is good but not if it knocks out the big guns early on by drawing them against each other. not only will it effect the big clubs finance, it will damage the tournaments reputation and viewing figures will decrease, and in turn sponsorship, all having a knock on effect until finally FOOTBALL loses money.

its not just utd either, i dont want to see the likes of barcelona and madrid out before the 1/4 finals. these are the guys that make football what it is and what attracts millions of people to it.

thejollyrodger

If it makes sense why dont they have it for the world cup or European championships??
and why did FIFA laugh at it ?

Because it doesnt make one bit of sense. Any football fan can tell you that.

If two big clubs meet straight after the group stages then there will be a great game then. The TV companies dont loose out. Top teams progress.

abccormac

you reward the sides that win by seeding them according to how much they win.

Is that not what happens in the group? If you win your matches you go through, if you top the group, you play a runner up, and if your a top seeded team, you play one strong team and two weaker teams in your group. If that's not enough of an advantage already, then nothing will do other than getting access to the knockouts without having to play in the group stages at all. The bigger, stronger teams already have an advantage, they shouldn't be given an even bigger one.

it will damage the tournaments reputation

The way things are set up now, there are big matches between good teams in every round, if you change the format to accomodate a seeding system this will no longer be the case, you will get the strongest team left in the tournament playing the weakest, which I think would do much more damage to the tournaments reputation.

Big Ears

smemon wrote:

a random draw is good but not if it knocks out the big guns early on by drawing them against each other. not only will it effect the big clubs finance, it will damage the tournaments reputation and viewing figures will decrease, and in turn sponsorship, all having a knock on effect until finally FOOTBALL loses money.

its not just utd either, i dont want to see the likes of barcelona and madrid out before the 1/4 finals. these are the guys that make football what it is and what attracts millions of people to it.

Sure we may as well just start in the last 16 of the tournament with all the 'big' sides if thats your attitude , nobody wants to see those minows on tv anyway :rolleyes: .

ps: Porto deserved to win the Champions League more than any other side last year , and Barcelona wearn't good enough to win it this year (3 defeats in 8 games) simple as that .

Chucky the tree

smemon wrote:

its the same with the euro's with greece winning. a part of me liked to see the nobodys win it but then hang on a second had ireland been playing greece along the way and knocked us out we'd be cursing them for their defensive tactics and say we are the better side and SHOULD have won it had it all been seeded.

that complete ****e, even more then your usual standard of crap.

Greece beat protugal in the group stage, then they beat France, and Czech republic wasnt it? then protugal again in the final.

Before the tornument those where probaly the top 3 sides(france and the cqech republic where definitly the top 2 anyway)

So, tell me, excactly how seeding would of meant greece wouldnt of won?

You whole therory of "seeding" seems to be based on history and reputation, not current form. Which is a painfully stupid idea.

A Dub in Glasgo

smemon wrote:

if arsenal had suggested it or anyone else for that, we wouldnt have 6 pages on it, nor would we have the anti utd bias that certain people seem to have.

Oh yes we would if Arsenal fans kept posting ludicous proposals to ensure that their team (and others) got through to the latter stages of the competition (note that word)

the idea makes sense, you reward the sides that win by seeding them according to how much they win. its not stupid or idiotic, it makes sense and as pointed out happens in other sports.

And that is exactly what happens in the group stages. The idea after the group stages is nonsense and only fans interested in a cartel arrangement would think otherwise.

a random draw is good but not if it knocks out the big guns early on by drawing them against each other not only will it effect the big clubs finance, it will damage the tournaments reputation and viewing figures will decrease, and in turn sponsorship, all having a knock on effect until finally FOOTBALL loses money.

Getting knocked out of a competition will affect all clubs whether they are big or small. Why should the big guns be the ones that must be singled out for protection?

its not just utd either, i dont want to see the likes of barcelona and madrid out before the 1/4 finals. these are the guys that make football what it is and what attracts millions of people to it.

Well if those teams do not perform, what else do you want them to do? You might as well draw straws amonst the biggest 6 teams in Europe to see who would win for all the benefit that these proposals would have brought to the competition.

If Man United were not amonst the higher seeds, it is extememly doubtful, you would be posting this stuff (or would you even support them?)

Töpher

There is a form of seeding after the groups already.

If you cannot top your group, why should you be granted an "easier" draw in the next round if you are in the bottom 50% of teams remaining in terms of current performance.

Man Utd were clearly in this category, so maybe their loss to the competition (I suppose I should say "this year") is not as big as people were making out, because, as pointed out, they were in the poorest half of teams remaining in CURRENT performance terms. Because of this they are out. The better team went through. Live with it and work towards next year. Unfortunately there are not many funds available to strenthen the squad this year, but see below for my thoughts on that.

Those teams RELIANT on prize money need to do a couple of things:
Employ proper accountants and financial advisors.
In some cases don't spend 27m Sterling on one player. Put it towards a SQUAD CAPABLE of reaching the next round. Suppose this also depends alot on the first point.

If a team is not able to survive without reaching very high stages of European competition then it is not being run properly. Thats common business sense. (And yes, I am aware that almost every club is run at a loss, but it is possible to run with some losses and not cry like babies).

No team is as big or important as it likes to think it is. They were shít once before, and will become so again one day, and others will take their place. It's ridiculously stupid and naiive to think otherwise. If that day is tomorrow then so be it, the day after someone else will replace them.

p.pete

smemon wrote:

if arsenal had suggested it or anyone else for that, we wouldnt have 6 pages on it, nor would we have the anti utd bias that certain people seem to have.

I have anti-united bias, I can hold my hand up and admit it. I hope my posts don't overstep any marks because I feel I should be allowed this bias as long as I don't rub anyone's nose in it.

It's rare / unlikely that Arsenal or other clubs would come out with crap like this, thus we wouldn't respond with 6 (and growing) pages. United on the other hand...

PHB

jesus christ p.pete

I must have said this like 5 times,
Arsene Wenger started this, and Gill was wasked a question responding to Arsene Wenger.

Wenger's CL warning
by Mark Buckingham - created on 20 Mar 2005
Arsenal boss Arsene Wenger feels there will be a revolt if the format of the UEFA Champions League is not altered.

Wenger has urged Uefa to tinker with the draw for the knockout phase of the competition which follows on from the group stage.

At present, teams who top their qualifying group will meet a runner-up from another group in the last 16 of the competition.

But following the exits of The Gunners, Manchester United and Real Madrid at that stage this season, Wenger feels it is time to change.

The Gunners chief believes Uefa will be better served by introducing a seedings system in the knockout phase to ensure the bigger clubs have a greater chance of advancing in the Champions League.

"You can't afford to have Real Madrid and Man Utd - big clubs who invest so much money - going out in the last 16," warned Wenger.

"You will have a revolt if it continues.

"I don't think the formula at the moment helps the best teams.

"Maybe Uefa will use ranking lists to influence the draw in future."

Meanwhile, Wenger has been linked with two players on the continent as he assesses potential reinforcements for next season.

With doubts persisting about the effectiveness of Manuel Almunia and Jens Lehmann, Lille goalkeeper Tony Sylva has been put forward as a possible signing.

AZ Alkmaar defender Jan Kromkamp has also been mooted as a target to provide competition for Lauren at right back.

Man Utd responded on the Tuesday, 22 March, 2005, 16:20 GMT

Don't you look silly

Do people just not read?
Arsenal did suggest it, United supported it.

eirebhoy

smemon wrote:

the idea makes sense, you reward the sides that win by seeding them according to how much they win. its not stupid or idiotic, it makes sense and as pointed out happens in other sports.

What are you talking about? Gill and Wenger want teams seeded by the UEFA rankings, just like they do in the group stages. Why would he be coming out and saying things like "knee jerk reaction" if he meant what you just said? If they were seeding teams by "how much they win" United wouldn't have been seeded, they came second in their group. If teams want to be seeded they should win their group and play a second placed team, not be sending reserves to Turkey.

PHB - That is my first time seeing that article.

p.pete

PHB wrote:

jesus christ p.pete

I must have said this like 5 times,
Arsene Wenger started this, and Gill was wasked a question responding to Arsene Wenger.



Man Utd responded on the Tuesday, 22 March, 2005, 16:20 GMT

Don't you look silly

Do people just not read?
Arsenal did suggest it, United supported it.

LOL - oops
selective reading and also hearing what I want to hear

<edit>

From Wenger "I don't think the formula at the moment helps the best teams." in PHB's post. Why exactly do the best teams need a formula to help them?

The Muppet

PHB wrote:

jesus christ p.pete

I must have said this like 5 times,
Arsene Wenger started this, and Gill was wasked a question responding to Arsene Wenger.



Man Utd responded on the Tuesday, 22 March, 2005, 16:20 GMT

Don't you look silly

Do people just not read?
Arsenal did suggest it, United supported it.

Good Point . It seemed to me from the outset that this thread was a United Bashing exercise despite the fact that there were other clubs named in the quoted article. OK The title thread was changed after this was pointed out but I still don;t see United " Demanding" anything. They made a suggestion , surly they are entitled to do that, it does not make them idiots. As PHP has shown it was not even Uniteds idea in the first place.

It's a pity some users can not see past their Anti united feelings when making their contributions it would improve the forum no end if they did. It appears they feel they have to grasp any oppertunity to have a dig at United even if that means ignoring the facts as they have done in this instance. I dont mean all the posters, {there are lots who will give their opinion without the dig at United at the end} but read back over the pages of this thread and it is Blatently obvious who is just stirring.

Töpher

The Muppet wrote:

Good Point . It seemed to me from the outset that this thread was a United Bashing exercise despited the fact that there were other clubs named in the quoted article. OK The title thread was changed after this was pointed out but I still don;t see United " Demanding" anything. They made a suggestion , surly they are entitled to do that, it does not make them idiots. As PHP has shown it was not even Uniteds idea in the first place.

It's a pit some users can not see past their Anti united feelings when making their contributions it would improve the forum no end if they did. It appears they feel they have to grasp any oppertunity to have a dig at United even if that means ignoring the facts as they have done in this instance. I dont mean all the posters, {there are lots who will give their opinion without the dig at United at the end} but read back over the pages of this thread and it is Blatently obvious who is just stirring.

I suppose it could be bcause Arsenal said it needed changing, and United gave a set idea that comes across solely as a financial plan? I'm sure Arsenals idea would have been similar if not the exact same, but they did not say what United did, and so we are arguing about the facts and the points that were actually made (Not working off guesses about what Wengers exact plan may have been).

I'm sure people will find problems with that, that is just my own honest stance, and if Aston Villa or Shelbourne were to put forward suggestions like that (allbeit in "other" competitions ), I would be the first to bemoan them too.

The Muppet

Einst&#252 wrote: »

I suppose it could be bcause Arsenal said it needed changing, and United gave a set idea that comes across solely as a financial plan? I'm sure Arsenals idea would have been similar if not the exact same, but they did not say what United did, and so we are arguing about the facts and the points that were actually made (Not working off guesses about what Wengers exact plan may have been).

I'm sure people will find problems with that, that is just my own honest stance, and if Aston Villa or Shelbourne were to put forward suggestions like that (allbeit in "other" competitions ), I would be the first to bemoan them too.

That's fair comment as all your contributions to this thread have been. I dont have any problem with fair criticism and I imagine most other United Supporters are the same but if you look at some of the comments by a minority in this thread they are anything but.

Off topic:LOL @ your sig.

eirebhoy

Try and lose Smemon and you'll get a few more supporters Muppet. If a United player came out and said its OK to abuse your wife Smemon would find some way to back them up.

The Muppet

eirebhoy wrote:

Try and lose Smemon and you'll get a few more supporters Muppet. If a United player came out and said its OK to abuse your wife Smemon would find some way to back them up.

Thats not very fair Eirebhoy. I don't go along with a lot of what Smemon says but I do respect his right to say it. There is no defence for labelling all United supporters as one just as there is no defence for labelling all Celtic or any other clubs supporters as one.

Jivin Turkey

I dont think people are bashing this because of any anti-United bias. Its a stupid idea plain and simple.

Testament to that is that only two people on here have supported it.

smemon

eirebhoy wrote:

Try and lose Smemon and you'll get a few more supporters Muppet. If a United player came out and said its OK to abuse your wife Smemon would find some way to back them up.

the fact you try and single me out or somehow get to me shows your main concern isnt with this thread. ive done nothing but talk about this subject and what i think of it, you dont have to agree with me, the same way i dont have to agree with you.

initially i came in to defend utd as they were getting bashed for not a whole lot imo. i could see what gill meant, and why he meant it. not once have i rubbished peoples opinions or made little of them, at most quote and disagree.

jank

Arsenal fans kept posting ludicous proposals to ensure that their team (and others) got through to the latter stages of the competition (note that word

See arsenal fans have a brain and if Wenger suggested this idea I and what I gather from the majority of other arsenal supporters on the net they are totally AGAINST the idea of seeding in the knockout stages.

I understand the need for seeding in the group stages however.

If you support the idea then I wouldnt even regard u as a football fan.. id regard u as a business man.

So much ****e spoutted on this forum and im afraid seamon and PHB are again the culprits, not because the support the idea but of their weird fantasy logic behind it!

....So then it becomes a Utd bashing exercise but with the kind of posts on here that ive just read it makes its almost entirely understandable why this happens....

PS as far as I can see only Utd Fans on here are supporting it, but to check if the real Utd fans support it then head off to http://www.redissue.co.uk and ask them the same question and see if they support? I really think not!

PHB

Oh well then, if lots of other people don't support it, then I better not. Don't want to be one of those weirdos with their fantasy logic.

Big Ears

PHB wrote:

Oh well then, if lots of other people don't support it, then I better not. Don't want to be one of those weirdos with their fantasy logic.

Theres nothing wrong with supporting something other people don't , its just in this case the thing you are supporting seems a crazy idea(IMHO) , that could make the CL in basically an 8 team tournament with the same teams entering the latter stages every year .

A Dub in Glasgo

The proposals here offer nothing for football competition in Europe. What is proposed is a cosy cartel. That is the reason why most people dislike it and can see through the 'finance' talk.

PHB

Its not about a cosy cartel, this in theory would be detrimental to United.
If this was imposed for next season United would have a tougher draw.

That said, it would benefit the top 8 teams, and would continue to benefit them, makign it harder to break into the top 8. I however don't care about that

A Dub in Glasgo

PHB wrote:

That said, it would benefit the top 8 teams, and would continue to benefit them, makign it harder to break into the top 8. I however don't care about that

Which is as close to a cosy cartel you are likely to get in football