SDLP caught lying over McCartney "support"

mike65

AmenToThat you may have missed the subtext of Mercury Tilt starting this thread or at least steering it in a particluar direction -

So what you all are saying is that the or a party cannot be held accountable for actions of its member unless sanctioned at a high level or something to that effect?

MT was seeking to draw a parallel (as I see it) between the accusastions leveled at SF/IRA regarding McCartneys murder by members of the IRA and the help given to the sisters by a member of SDLP. The sisters do not (as far as I can tell) have a relationship with the SDLP party. Do they need to issue a statement "to clarify"? Maybe if it puts this to bed.

Mike.

Hobbes

mycroft wrote:

The article suggests the SDLP organised the trip. 1 member of the SDLP helped in a small way, and one former member helped out.

Do you not think it was possible they (the SDLP) didn't know these people were helping in the first place?

Yea its a bit like SF not knowing that people in the IRA did a bank job? :rolleyes:

I think this is a bit of a non-story but does make more sense about McGuinness comments about the sisters being political pawns.

AmenToThat

mike65 wrote:

AmenToThat you may have missed the subtext of Mercury Tilt starting this thread or at least steering it in a particluar direction -

As far as I can see he was simply asking why would the SDLP want to deny any involvment with (or help given to if you want to term it like that) the McCartney sisters.
How this equates to another round by the SF bashing squad is beyond me but you seem to have been able to pull it off.
God bless your imagination as it seems to be working overtime right now.

cdebru

Hobbes wrote:

Yea its a bit like SF not knowing that people in the IRA did a bank job? :rolleyes:

I think this is a bit of a non-story but does make more sense about McGuinness comments about the sisters being political pawns.

if it helps tp put into perspective what mcguinness was refering to when he made those remarks i think it is at least worthwile bringing the issue to public notice
especially given the denial by the SDLP that they were involved in helping


not that there is anything wrong with anyone helping the sisters people should just be upfront about it and not have it dragged out of them by the media. There is nothing to be ashamed of in helping these women so why the secrecy

gandalf

Mercury_Tilt wrote:

This post has been deleted.

You are on a warning already, if I see another one like this I will ban you from here!

gandalf

OK to the article at hand. Yes if the SDLP helped the McCartney sisters get to the states then they should admit it. However it is not a big deal and all this article from the "unbiased" Daily Ireland newspaper is a crude attempt at re-direction.

As pointed out here already no one lies in a freshly dug grave without justice because of the SDLP's actions, a child is fatherless because of members of the IRA's actions and Justice is not being done due to the "forgetfulness" of Sinn Fein members who have stood for election.

The fact that some people have made this an issue after weeks of inaction by the so called Nationalist majority party in the North is quite pathetic and quite frankly imho stinks of desparation.

gandalf

Slutmonkey57b wrote:

Could we have a little less of the hyperbole and attacking the poster while we're at it Mercury? I believe you've already been warned once.

Next time just report the post ok :rolleyes:

BuffyBot

Ah, yes the Daily Ireland. Naturally, they're the first people who'll give fair and balanced coverage to this story.

To be honest, it strikes me as being very little more than a diversionary tactic. You know what they say about specks and planks and all that.

AmenToThat

gandalf wrote:

OK to the article at hand. Yes if the SDLP helped the McCartney sisters get to the states then they should admit it.
However it is not a big deal and all this article from the "unbiased" Daily Ireland newspaper is a crude attempt at re-direction.

No more unbiased than most other newspapers just biased in a different direction.
It is a fact of the case( especially seeing that the British elections are only about six weeks away) and as such should be reported.
Indeed if other newspapers know about this and decided not to run the story then they are reporting or choosing to ignore in a biased fashion, which of course all newspapers do.

gandalf wrote:

As pointed out here already no one lies in a freshly dug grave without justice because of the SDLP's actions, a child is fatherless because of members of the IRA's actions and Justice is not being done due to the "forgetfulness" of Sinn Fein members who have stood for election.

The fact that some people have made this an issue after weeks of inaction by the so called Nationalist majority party in the North is quite pathetic and quite frankly imho stinks of desparation.

Again we have an attempt to change a story about the SDLP into another SF bashing.
There are plenty of threads regarding SF on this particular issue do we really need another?

cdebru

honestly the daily Ireland is no more biased in one direction than papers like the Indo and Sindo are in the other


BTW what do they say about specks and planks???

cdebru

gandalf wrote:

OK to the article at hand. Yes if the SDLP helped the McCartney sisters get to the states then they should admit it. However it is not a big deal and all this article from the "unbiased" Daily Ireland newspaper is a crude attempt at re-direction.

As pointed out here already no one lies in a freshly dug grave without justice because of the SDLP's actions, a child is fatherless because of members of the IRA's actions and Justice is not being done due to the "forgetfulness" of Sinn Fein members who have stood for election.

The fact that some people have made this an issue after weeks of inaction by the so called Nationalist majority party in the North is quite pathetic and quite frankly imho stinks of desparation.

If the SDLP helped the sisters by not being straight about it they have let the diversionary tactic be used

if they helped and had been honest about it so what gerry adams has already said it is the patriotic duty to help the mccartneys what makes it look dubious is that they denied it

gandalf

AmenToThat wrote:

No more unbiased than most other newspapers just biased in a different direction.
It is a fact of the case( especially seeing that the British elections are only about six weeks away) and as such should be reported.
Indeed if other newspapers know about this and decided not to run the story then they are reporting or choosing to ignore in a biased fashion, which of course all newspapers do.

Never said that other newspapers are not unbiased. I mean (Sir :rolleyes:) Anto's rags seem to have a hard on for getting at Sinn Fein at the moment.

As for the SDLP fair play to them, they have been too passive in the past with regard to Sinn Fein, they should hammer home the advantage now.

Again we have an attempt to change a story about the SDLP into another SF bashing.
There are plenty of threads regarding SF on this particular issue do we really need another?

No what you have are people putting a perspective on this story. We all know what this is, a deflection exercise allowing poor old Sinn Fein to climb back on their martyrs cross which they love so much :rolleyes:

Rosser

Let me just balance this up, a member of the SDLP arranges credit and passage for the McCarthneys to go to the US vs Sinn Fein members present in the bar where at the time of the murder, which they first deny then change their stories about 10 times....

Yeah it's a difficult one alright.....

Villain

The SDLP are using this issue as a political football as are a lot of other party's, in the mean time the people who murdered this poor man are walking free. I'm afraid the McCartney sisters might be losing their way, if this becomes any more political they may never get justice.

The SDLP lied as does every political party what the motive was in this case I don't know, maybe people might think they were using the sisters or maybe they were just helping a family seek justice. I think the later would have been easier to believe if they hadn't lied.

Now this thread is not about SF so please for the sake of the children leave them out of it

Lemming

irish1 wrote:

The SDLP are using this issue as a political football as are a lot of other party's, in the mean time the people who murdered this poor man are walking free. I'm afraid the McCartney sisters might be losing their way, if this becomes any more political they may never get justice.

Must. Bite. Tongue.

The SDLP lied as does every political party what the motive was in this case I don't know, maybe people might think they were using the sisters or maybe they were just helping a family seek justice. I think the later would have been easier to believe if they hadn't lied.

There is another way to look at this:

The party helped (ie. funded) the sisters and knowing what would happen if it did came to light kept it quiet.

I would be more inclined to believe the SDLP over the innuendos of a bunch of murdering cutthroats, terrorists and general criminals however. Unless of course SF/IRA can show credible proof beyond mere innuendo that the SDLP gained direct political capital out of helping the sisters in the way they did.

mycroft

Mercury_Tilt wrote:

This post has been deleted.

Reall cause you are making a load of hypotheticals....

What we have here is two phonecalls. If you were to work it another way, this could be a scandal about someone pointing some business towards his friends travel agency.

We have one man, asking for a line of credit with a friends travel agency.

The suggestion of the former SDLP member in Washington, is just daft. Every report I've read is he was just the only person in Washington anyone vaguely knew. This wasn't a campaign.

So can we argee we can disregard that?

So then from that we have one phone call to a friends travel agency, which maybe wasn't known to the person in SDLP who made the denial.

You're hypothetizing that this was a decision made by the SDLP. You've no evidence that the person who made the original denial was aware of the tiny minor phonecall made by another member of the SDLP.

Yet I'm the one making hypotheticals?

You cite as a source that a paper making this phenominally flimsy and unsubstantiated alledgation but makes it front page new "SDLP organised Mc Carthy Washington Trip"

I would also suggest that you would not be able to fling enough dirt on a mole hill to make a mountain. That would require many man hours and the use of alot of heavy machinary. I belive but can be corrected here that the standard height of a mountain if around 305 meters. I have no idea of the required mass that is required.

Ah metaphors aren't your forte then. Thats okay. Obviously abuse of hypotheticals is.

You tell a lot of lies mycrof. A lot of lies......

really? where? Exactly where have I lied. I've already posted that accusation to a mod.

Less of the hypothetical stuff.. and more sticking to the facts I think!

You're quoting an article which starts with a exaggeration, fails to substaniate the thrust of the piece, and you're accusing me of not sticking to the facts?

Sand

The SDLP are using this issue as a political football as are a lot of other party's, in the mean time the people who murdered this poor man are walking free. I'm afraid the McCartney sisters might be losing their way, if this becomes any more political they may never get justice.

Maybe the next time your local IRA - woops SF - candidate shows up to mow your lawn you should ask him to demand that the IRA - woops SF - candidates, members and supporters in the bar give a statement to the police. There wont be justice for the McCartneys until then.

And can someone buy SF/IRA a ****ing theasaurus? "Political football" is rising to the heights of "Sit-YEE-a-SHUN" and "Peace Proccess" and "commitment" in their cut and paste political soundbites. Someone was obviously paying attention to Royston Bradys "Drive, Energy and Commitment" slogan approach to political debate.

As for the story, whats the issue here? The sisters need help - their local representitives have murdered their brother and are stonewalling them, only using them as a political eyecandy at their Ard Fheis in a cynical stunt. An SDLP figure is asked to help them get a line of credit with a travel agent and he does. Certainly no SF/IRA figure offers to help them out, apart from offering to murder some low ranking scapegoats it will decide to finger for the murder.

There is no indication that the SDLP asked or told the sister to go to the US, they certainly didnt tell them to go to the SF Ard Fheis. The Daily Ireland is just a provo rag, a tool Adams and the Army Council are using to try and penetrate Middle Ireland because they recognise An Phoblacht is widely recognised as a provo rag already. The whole story is taking a few details and creating a vast conspiracy from it.

Between the death threats made in the name of the IRA against the sisters and this rubbish of a story its obvious SF/IRA have decided to try and crush the sisters campaign for justice. Id say the provos are already out there hammering away building their crosses so they can nail themselves to it and wail about their persecution.

Victor

Situation 1: A man is murdered with 70 or so SF/IRA members present and the party says it doesn't know.

Situation 2: 1 member and 1 ex-member of the SDLP help an out-of-their-depth family and the party says it doesn't know.

Hmmmmm .... :rolleyes:

monument

gandalf wrote:

OK to the article at hand. Yes if the SDLP helped the McCartney sisters get to the states then they should admit it. However it is not a big deal and all this article from the "unbiased" Daily Ireland newspaper is a crude attempt at re-direction.

Mercury_Tilt wrote:

This post has been deleted.

On both points above in bold text -

Of course, such logic can only be used in an "unbiased" way. No one here would ever use such logic in a biased way, say as to apply it to one party/paper/group/etc and not another, never. Because everyone here is "unbiased".

monument

monument wrote:

Of course, such logic can only be used in an "unbiased" way. No one here would ever use such logic in a biased way, say as to apply it to one party/paper/group/etc and not another, never. Because everyone here is "unbiased".

You know, only that I'm aware that if I pm'ed Merc at this point,I'd interupt his viewing of the excelent Despearate Housewives I am very tempted to ask him would he mind changing the title of this thread...

The Title I would have in mind would be...


SDLP inextricably linked to a travelagency

Pun intended

Slutmonkey57b

Well I certainly had a feeling about this thread. And lo and behold, the "usual supects" are complaining about the "usual suspects" on boards being anti-republican and having double standards.

I'd like to be able to logically refute all this but I think it's a bit like talking to a wall at this stage. But I'll try anyway.

Differences between this minor news story and a news story involving SF denials:

1) SDLP denials do not revolve around murder, punishment beatings, or "disappearances". This means that an SDLP denial of something can generally in no way be compared to a SF denial.

2) SF are quite happy to paint themselves as the "representatives" (or controllers depending on the audience) of the IRA when it suits them in negotiations, but quickly pretends to know nothing about them when something goes wrong. The SDLP is not painting itself as the representatives of anything other than democratic citizens voting for peace, and have no need to make hasty denials of the people they represent.

3) The SDLP does not claim to have the iron grip on discipline that the IRA likes to claim it has. It is a democratic party made up of individuals with a common purpose, not a self-styled army.

4) SF were the ones who complained about the McCarthy sisters being used as a "political football" for certain parties "own purposes". The fact that they did so while

dragging the sisters up on stage at their conference, and constantly bleating on about how everyone was persecuting SF for no reason, and warning them not to get involved in party politics

is rank, disgusting hipocracy of the highest order. The fact that they expected us to swallow it and not see it as the transparant attempt at diversion is even more offensive.

5) The SDLP has at no time attempted to "use" the McCarthys for its own purposes. If the SDLP were really attempting to "use" the McCarthy visit, then you would see SDLP politicians and handlers dragging them here there and yonder, posing for photographs everywhere, and proudly boasting about how they are helping out poor constituents by arranging their trip for them. The SDLP has not been doing this at all. The only party that HAS been doing this sort of thing is SF.

6) The non-story itself is a blatant, and ultimatly toothless attempt to start the smearing process of the McCartneys, along with the commentaries that are coming out about how one of the sisters has a political degree (shocking!) and musings on whether Robert's significant other should be referred to as a girlfriend or a fiancee (as though it mattered). McGuinness flagged weeks ago that this process was going to start and anyone familiar with SF's preferred M.O. in this sort of situation was just waiting for a story like this.

The simple fact is that the only allegation in the whole article is that a member of the SDLP phoned a friend and advised him that the McCartney sisters were applying for credit at his travel agency. Whether or not he then informed his party handlers, or whether he should have, or whether they were aware of the contact when they issued a denial, is a point of pedantry that will be cleared up in no time (if it hasn't already been covered by the quote in the article itself).

billy the squid

So what if the SDLP members helped them to see President Bush. big deal. if it helps further the family's quest for justice then fair play to them for making a few phone calls.

I would love to know how many phone calls Cora Groody made in relation to the murder, and how they benefited the McCartney quest for justice.

mycroft

billy the squid wrote:

So what if the SDLP members helped them to see President Bush. big deal. if it helps further the family's quest for justice then fair play to them for making a few phone calls.

I would love to know how many phone calls Cora Groody made in relation to the murder, and how they benefited the McCartney quest for justice.

Billy stop helping. No member of the SDLP helped the family met bush you're helping the anti side. Theres no evidence to support your claim. Stop.

billy the squid

Im not saying they did or they didn't

Im saying that if they did, what would be wrong with it.

cora groody (SF) shose to ring one of her mates with the gossip, instead of going to the police to say she witnessed a murder, according to the mccartneys.

Trojan

(monument: I'm unbiased[1].)

I think that the SDLPs explanation thus far has been pathetic. It's obvious that one possibility is SDLP deliberately help the McCartneys gain unbelievable amounts of publicity with a Whitehouse trip in order to maximise damaging SFs hopes for the upcoming elections.

Sadly, I think that had they just admitted to the financial "recommendation" (not even cash), they'd be in a much better situation. They've been caught in a lie. It's not anything like as bad as SF/pIRAs trouble, but it's hard to take the high ground when you've been caught out like this.

SF/pIRA had been doing a fantastic job all by themselves of maximising damage to their campaign.

My 0.02e.

--

1. Or rather, I think that the lying, murdering scum of SF/pIRA may actually have something to complain about here.

Blub2k4

mycroft wrote:

the kid in the US was working off his own bat and not under an orders from the party.

This reeks of desperation.

But change that a little bit and state something like

"they were working off their own bat robbing the bank/murdering someone in a drunken brawl and not under orders from SF/IRA "

All of a sudden this logic wont work, surely the association argument applies here too or is this a case of double standards?

Blub2k4

Blub2k4 wrote:

All of a sudden this logic wont work, surely the association argument applies here too or is this a case of double standards?

Well no as I'd imagine what was done to Robert McCartney was illegal.
Phoning a travelagent on the other hand is not illegal

Blub2k4

Earthman wrote:

Well no as I'd imagine what was done to Robert McCartney was illegal.
Phoning a travelagent on the other hand is not illegal

That is not what I am saying and as such has nothing to do with the legality or the illegality it has to do with the application of the same logic to both cases.
A definite case of doublethink.

Lemming

Blub2k4 wrote:

That is not what I am saying and as such has nothing to do with the legality or the illegality it has to do with the application of the same logic to both cases.
A definite case of doublethink.

It was badly handled most certainly and I'd expect more of the SDLP if they were indeed involved at party level.

Beyond that you are clutching at straws, and badly Blub2k4. Very poor comparisons. Extrordinarily so in fact. Add to that mix the fact that SF/IRA were quite happy to "exploit" the sisters for their own benefit at their Ard Fheis and your "logic" goes out the window.

As was rightly pointed out, one act was legal, the other was .... well ... far from it in any terms you want to try and coach it.

Trojan

Lemming, the argument that SF were happy to exploit the sisters for their own benefit is valid. The problem is that SDLP reduced themselves to liars when they covered up their own possible exploitation (it's not even that serious).

SDLP remain liars who have used the sisters to their own political ends.