SDLP caught lying over McCartney "support"

Gir

Slutmonkey57b wrote:

ah. I see we're still on the "SF bashers whatabout double standards" bit.

I thought I covered all that already?

I am not sure you covered it fully. Allow me.

Slutmonkey57b wrote:

1:There is no evidence that the SDLP knew about the phone call to the travel agent before issuing a denial.
2: There is no suggestion that the SDLP made any attempt to pay for the trip, fund the sisters in any way, or otherwise assist them financially.
3: The only dirt that can be dug up is that an SDLP member made a phone call telling a man who runs a travel agency that someone was applying for credit at his company. Not that the SDLP ordered the man to give the credit, or threatened him, or kidnapped his family.
4: There is no evidence that the SDLP either knew the man was making the call, asked him to make the call, gave him advice about whether or not the call was a good idea, or anything else.
5: Not even an article which is an obvious smear attempt can link the "handler" in the states to being anything other than deeply disillusioned with the SDLP, and certainly not being either a party member or anyone who was interested in what the party was doing.

Ok.

So let us take the recent McCarthy events.

1:There is no evidence that the SF or IRA knew about the McCarty Murder in advance.

2: There is no Evidence to suggest that the IRA or SF made any attempt to cover up the deed.

3: The only dirt that can be dug up on SF and the IRA are witnesses who claim that it was said the some people said that they were from the IRA..that it was IRA businness... and that no one should speak of the incident.

This would be the same pub were all the people in it, are claimed by people here and else were, to be SF or IRA supporters.

No name has ever been attached by a journalist to who made a statement to this effect. Therefore by everyones logic it cannot be said to be true. Have I got that right?

4: There is no evidence that the IRA or SF knew the man being killed. Warned him he was about to be killed or offered him advice that he was in trouble with them and gave him other options.

5: Not even an article which is an obvious smear attempt can state that the IRA or SF were directly involved in the killing.

And, for the hard of viewing, I'll state again:

At no time has the IRA or SF linked itself in any way with the McCarthy crime or attempted to do so. In fact they have done the opposite.

Agree or disagree?

Based on the facts?

Slutmonkey57b wrote:

The only party, North or South, or in Britain, that has done any of those things is SF. And yet SF are worried about making sure that the McCarthy family are not used by some political party for their own ends?

Double standards indeed. I'm not applying double standards to the SDLP. I'm sure they'll make a statement clarifying exactly what happened here. But I have some confidence that the statement will at least be coherent and make some sort of logical sense.

Double standards? Various parties denied SF's claims that the McCarty family were being used for political gain. It was on the TV so I am afraid I have no links.

SF's claims were rubbished. Now it seems that they were being used. Why would the SDLP help fly a them to the USA to meet the president of the usa.

Answer that question?

They have said them selves they could have raised the funds. Any bank would have lent them the money.

But a political party or party members did it. Why? And dont tell me it was a constituency matter.

Slutmonkey57b wrote:

Double standards indeed. .

Allow me...

I think you should read the Links posted by Mercury_Tilt and look at the arguments put forward.

Then you will see double standards.

As if this thread was not enough.

cdebru

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

The Andy Town News gives a local viewpoint.... Of course, this is just another one of those partial newspapers that is totally unbiased eh?

I suspected that a backlash against the sisters may have been on the way.

I honestly think going to america to see bush was a mistake

i think the andy town news has hit the nail on the head it is over exposure on the media
I think people just become bored of it no matter how deserving the story I just hope when the media has moved on the mccartneys are not left high and dry having been used by every political party for whatever advantage they could get from them

Slutmonkey57b

Gir wrote:

Double standards? Various parties denied SF's claims that the McCarty family were being used for political gain. It was on the TV so I am afraid I have no links.

SF's claims were rubbished. Now it seems that they were being used. Why would the SDLP help fly a them to the USA to meet the president of the usa.

Answer that question?

They have said them selves they could have raised the funds. Any bank would have lent them the money.

But a political party or party members did it. Why? And dont tell me it was a constituency matter.

Nowhere, even in an article in the Daily Ireland, does it state that either:

a) A member of the SDLP; or
b) The SDLP itself

made any attempt to fund the McCartney's trip.

The travel agency arranged a line of credit. Supporters of the McCartney pledged enough money to cover the cost of the tickets if the family could not clear the debt themselves. Nothing in those facts backs your accusation that the SDLP were the ones who funded the trip or made it possible.

If even the propaganda doesn't support the argument, drop it.

Sand

To refuse to shake Gerry Adams’ hand – with all the quasi-racist DUP overtones that that involves – is insulting enough, not only to him but to every single person who voted for him; to accuse him of being involved in a continuing cover-up is preposterous and inflammatory and, far from advancing the campaign for justice for their brother, does it a grave disservice.

Ah there it is, I was wading through that put-on handwringing over the McCartney sisters looking for the knife to come out and there it is. The McCartneys refused to shake the hand of a man they believe is complicit in denying justice to them for the savage and evil murder of their brother and thus are DUP-esque racists with an utter contempt for their neighbours.

Just another sly blow against the McCartneys. Martin McGuiness wasnt kidding in his threat against the family.

Gir

Sand wrote:

Ah there it is, I was wading through that put-on handwringing over the McCartney sisters looking for the knife to come out and there it is. The McCartneys refused to shake the hand of a man they believe is complicit in denying justice to them for the savage and evil murder of their brother and thus are DUP-esque racists with an utter contempt for their neighbours.

Just another sly blow against the McCartneys. Martin McGuiness wasnt kidding in his threat against the family.

What do you mean?

How is it a "sly blow"? Are you suggesting that SF or Gerry asked the paper to mention it in a certain way?

It is a fact that they refused to shke his hand.

How is it a "blow"? to anyone?

Can you expand on that?

Gir

Slutmonkey57b wrote:

Nowhere, even in an article in the Daily Ireland, does it state that either:

a) A member of the SDLP; or
b) The SDLP itself

made any attempt to fund the McCartney's trip.

The travel agency arranged a line of credit. Supporters of the McCartney pledged enough money to cover the cost of the tickets if the family could not clear the debt themselves. Nothing in those facts backs your accusation that the SDLP were the ones who funded the trip or made it possible.

If even the propaganda doesn't support the argument, drop it.

I *think* you missed the rest of my post.

Care to comment?

Agree or disagree?

It like Jeremy paxman time.. lets not have long fluffy sentences.. take the facts.. agree or disagree?

Villain

Lemming wrote:

This has nothing to do with anti-sf slant so come down off your f*cking martyrs cross.

No need for that at all.

cdebru

irish1 wrote:

No need for that at all.

he is just mimicking what gandalph wrote the other day

not very original

Victor

cdebru wrote:

like believing Tony Blair who was getting briefings from the Highest level on the threat from Iraq its weapons of mass destruction and its ability to launch a chemical biological attack within 30 minutes

.....

ALL WRONG

Ah, come on thats not true.... it was 45 minutes.

cdebru

Victor wrote:

Ah, come on thats not true.... it was 45 minutes.

i apologise 45 minutes it was

however the truth was the Iraqis could not have launched a conventional attack in 45 days never mind a biological in 45 minutes

billy the squid

Gir wrote:

1:There is no evidence that the SF or IRA knew about the McCarty Murder in advance.

have the family stated that the SF/IRA movement knew that Robert McCartney was going to be murdered before it happened. The men who did this were not acting on the orders of the IRA. but the IRA must be pretty damn sure they picked the responsible people if they were prepared to put a bullet in the back of their heads. why have they not at least surrendered the names of these people to the Ombudsman. why has Cora Groody not surrendered the names of these people, she admitted to being in the pub at the time.

2: There is no Evidence to suggest that the IRA or SF made any attempt to cover up the deed

seven members of Sinn fein were suspended from the party for their involvement in this. who were they, why have their names not gone to the ombudsman at least..

3: The only dirt that can be dug up on SF and the IRA are witnesses who claim that it was said the some people said that they were from the IRA..that it was IRA businness... and that no one should speak of the incident

who were these people? why have they not been identified? that is all the family want right?.

This would be the same pub were all the people in it, are claimed by people here and else were, to be SF or IRA supporters.

4: There is no evidence that the IRA or SF knew the man being killed. Warned him he was about to be killed or offered him advice that he was in trouble with them and gave him other options.

The family are not after the IRA they are after the people who are using the name of the IRA to further their criminal activity.

5: Not even an article which is an obvious smear attempt can state that the IRA or SF were directly involved in the killing.

Nobody is saying that. but its people like the three sinn fein people who were in the pub and "saw nothing" which are frustrating the investigation, and there is no reprimand from the party

Double standards? Various parties denied SF's claims that the McCarty family were being used for political gain. It was on the TV so I am afraid I have no links.

SF's claims were rubbished. Now it seems that they were being used. Why would the SDLP help fly a them to the USA to meet the president of the usa.

but the article does not say the SDLP helped the family. have you any proof that the trip to the USA came out of party coffers?

Gir

.

billy the squid

it wasnt a statement it was a question.

Gir

billy the squid wrote:

it wasnt a statement it was a question.

Sorry I got caught out by the quoting thing.. back in a mo..

Gir

billy the squid wrote:

The men who did this were not acting on the orders of the IRA

So why are people bismerching them? THe IRA?

Like the sdlp are kinda not involved..but gettin the blame?

I see loads people here who seem to have trouble with blaming the sdlp but having no issues tagging the IRA based on the same evidence they kepp repeating?

Why that?

Maybe its me?

cdebru

billy the squid wrote:

have the family stated that the SF/IRA movement knew that Robert McCartney was going to be murdered before it happened. The men who did this were not acting on the orders of the IRA. but the IRA must be pretty damn sure they picked the responsible people if they were prepared to put a bullet in the back of their heads. why have they not at least surrendered the names of these people to the Ombudsman. why has Cora Groody not surrendered the names of these people, she admitted to being in the pub at the time.



seven members of Sinn fein were suspended from the party for their involvement in this. who were they, why have their names not gone to the ombudsman at least..



who were these people? why have they not been identified? that is all the family want right?.

This would be the same pub were all the people in it, are claimed by people here and else were, to be SF or IRA supporters.



The family are not after the IRA they are after the people who are using the name of the IRA to further their criminal activity.



Nobody is saying that. but its people like the three sinn fein people who were in the pub and "saw nothing" which are frustrating the investigation, and there is no reprimand from the party

Double standards? Various parties denied SF's claims that the McCarty family were being used for political gain. It was on the TV so I am afraid I have no links.



but the article does not say the SDLP helped the family. have you any proof that the trip to the USA came out of party coffers?

perhaps people are not coming forward out of some misguided sense of loyalty
similiar to what was seen in the case in annabels nightclub case

as for the seven members of sinn fein suspended sinn fein have said they have passed there names on to the ombudsman have you information that this is not the case

billy the squid

cdebru wrote:

perhaps people are not coming forward out of some misguided sense of loyalty
similiar to what was seen in the case in annabels nightclub case

the fact that such a crime has the potential to cause serious damage to the republican movement, I find this hard to believe.

as for the seven members of sinn fein suspended sinn fein have said they have passed there names on to the ombudsman have you information that this is not the case

have these people been questioned or charged with their involvement ?

Gir

billy the squid wrote:

the fact that such a crime has the potential to cause serious damage to the republican movement, I find this hard to believe.



have these people been questioned or charged with their involvement ?

Did you miss my post or are you writing a reply?

Villain

billy the squid wrote:

the fact that such a crime has the potential to cause serious damage to the republican movement, I find this hard to believe.



have these people been questioned or charged with their involvement ?

It's not up to Sinn Fein to arrest them, they have passed on their names to the police ombudsman, I'm quite sure the PSNI can take it from there.

cdebru

billy the squid wrote:

the fact that such a crime has the potential to cause serious damage to the republican movement, I find this hard to believe.



have these people been questioned or charged with their involvement ?

people can behave in strange irrational ways to protect people they believe to be friends

i have no idea wether they have been quetioned but afaik no one has been charged

Slutmonkey57b

Gir wrote:

I *think* you missed the rest of my post.

Care to comment?

Agree or disagree?

It like Jeremy paxman time.. lets not have long fluffy sentences.. take the facts.. agree or disagree?

No, I just didn't have time to respond to the whole thing so I took the most obviously erroneous part out and corrected it.

I'm going to answer your points in both paragraphs and a summary, so there can't be any confusion. (you'll see why this is important)

So let us take the recent McCarthy events.
1:There is no evidence that the SF or IRA knew about the McCarty Murder in advance.

Nobody suggested at any point that they did. However some people are suggesting that the SDLP knew about this in advance. So your "point" is totally without basis, it is merely an attempt at distraction.

Simple answer: Irrelevant

2: There is no Evidence to suggest that the IRA or SF made any attempt to cover up the deed.

Apart from the fact that two SF election candidates made no attempt to contact anyone about the crime, and did not come forward at any point as witnesses, despite being in the bar at the time. And that several members of the IRA have been expelled for their part in the murder (but the results of the IRA's "investigation" have not been made public or available to the police or the ombudsman). And that several members of SF have been suspended as a result of an "internal investigation" but again none of the information in this investigation has been passed over to the people investigating the crime.

Simple answer: By refusing to co-operate with the police, that is exactly what they are doing.

3: The only dirt that can be dug up on SF and the IRA are witnesses who claim that it was said the some people said that they were from the IRA..that it was IRA businness... and that no one should speak of the incident.

Which is quite a large amount of dirt. Oh and the fact that 3 IRA members were expelled. Oh and the fact that the IRA says it knows who did the murder and offered to kill them. Oh and the fact that two SF election candidates were in the bar but did nothing about a "commotion" and mentioned it to nobody and never called an ambulance despite leaving the bar just after the killing and apparantly not seeing an ounce of blood on the ground.

Simple answer: Feel free to ignore all the other dirt.

This would be the same pub were all the people in it, are claimed by people here and else were, to be SF or IRA supporters.

No name has ever been attached by a journalist to who made a statement to this effect. Therefore by everyones logic it cannot be said to be true. Have I got that right?

Sources often remain anonymous. They are identified in general terms to indicate that there is a credible source behind a story. The "story" in the Daily Ireland makes no attempt to attribute information to any anonymous source, because clearly there is none.

Simple answer: Journalists covering both stories are working to different standards. Those covering this "story" in the Daily Ireland are evidently not working to very high standards.

4: There is no evidence that the IRA or SF knew the man being killed. Warned him he was about to be killed or offered him advice that he was in trouble with them and gave him other options.

Whether he was known to members of the IRA or SF before the crime has absolutely no bearing on what the crime was. As stated above, nobody is suggesting that the IRA did know about the crime beforehand. Whether the SDLP knew about the call beforehand, or was directing the call, has a great deal of bearing on the case, and is exactly what is being suggested in teh article.

Simple answer: Irrelevant and distractionary.

5: Not even an article which is an obvious smear attempt can state that the IRA or SF were directly involved in the killing.

What, apart from the fact that the IRA stated that its members were involved in the killing?

Simple answer: It doesn't get much simpler than that.

And, for the hard of viewing, I'll state again:
At no time has the IRA or SF linked itself in any way with the McCarthy crime or attempted to do so. In fact they have done the opposite.

The IRA has stated, publicly, that it has expelled 3 members of the organisation for the killing. And then publicly stated that it would execute them for the crime.

SF has suspended 8 members it suspects of being involved in the killing. And failed to provide any evidence to anyone of why this has been done.

They have only done this after they were pressured into doing it. The two SF candidates in the bar that night have still failed to co-operate in any form with the investigation.

And, to repeat my point a third time,

Nobody suggested the IRA masterminded the crime in advance.
The Daily Ireland is suggesting that the SDLP masterminded the McCarthy's trip in advance. Without any evidence to back this up.

Agree or disagree?

Based on the facts?

Disagree.

Also, you need to pay attention to the facts and not to the rhetoric.

Slutmonkey57b

Also, are you going to retract your earlier comment about the SDLP "funding" the McCartney's trip, based on the fact that not even the Daily Ireland article actually states anything of the kind?

Gir

Slutmonkey57b wrote:

Also, are you going to retract your earlier comment about the SDLP "funding" the McCartney's trip, based on the fact that not even the Daily Ireland article actually states anything of the kind?

Yes!

Its that easy for me.

Do you agree the same applies also to the IRA and SF regarding the McCarthy murder?

But they the SDLP.. "help" as was said. And its that help and its motivation rather than which phone number and how many digits were in that number that were dialed... that is in question....
Spooky!!



Ill look at your post in the morning or tomorrow if that ok.

Watching "Ronin" here at the mo.

Slutmonkey57b

Out of the West -Andersontown News

The unprecedented concentration on a single killing by the media was never sustainable. There are too many stories out there, too much suffering and too much hurt. It’s hardly surprising that a community that knows of many deaths that never merited an investigation by the RUC, never mind a conviction, feels angry – bitter, even – at the sight of a single family being championed by the media and taken to the bosom of three states.

Since the purpose of those visits and the publicly stated desire of the family is to see full access to justice and normal police investigations, why would people not be supportive of that? The only people who would not be supportive of a full, open, trustworthy police investigation into killings in teh short strand are people with something to hide - not the families of the victims.

And extensive as that information and evidence is, as compelling as those stories are, put it all together and it still didn’t get a fraction of the attention given to a single pub stabbing.

Apart from all the money devoted to things like Bloody Sunday.

The most unedifying spectacle in all of this is the SDLP’s efforts to put the boot in. Like grammar school boys dressed up as bikers for a school play, they’re enthusiastic enough, but not terribly convincing. That’s because they have precious little experience of campaigning or agitation.

When exactly has the SDLP been "putting the boot in" and to whom? When does the SDLP ever attempt to act like a bunch of toughs, as alleged in the article? What constitutes the "agitation" that the writer refers to?

The SDLP is a party that promotes peace and co-operation. They have no public interest in being seen as people involved in "agitation" as the republican movement likes to refer to organised rioting.

Any time I reported on street demos and there was a member of the SDLP there – a rare enough occurrence, let it be said – the poor bloke always looked as if he’d much rather be somewhere else.

Who in their right mind would want to be in the middle of a potentially violent riot situation? The only people who actively court a riot, or enjoy them, by definition are psychopaths.

Which is perhaps why they look so uncomfortable as they get stuck in; it’s as if they’re aware that the Short Strand community might at some point wonder where they were all those other times over the past 35 years when the people hit the streets.

This writer evidently has either a very short memory and forgets that the SDLP started the Civil Rights movement and marces in the north, or is trying to whitewash that fact out of history.

Martin McGuinness was excoriated for advising the family to be “very careful” not to become embroiled in the world of party politics – his words were deemed a threat, and it’s clear now that it doesn’t matter what republicans say, a negative spin will be printed regardless. But the family should indeed be very careful, because if they do allow themselves, deliberately or unwittingly, to become poster girls for one party or another, then that will inevitably lead to more anger and resentment.

I'll say it again, since some people are STILL ignoring it, the ONLY PARTY to attempt to use the McCarthy sisters as "poster girls" is Sinn Fein. And yes, that does lead to anger and resentment.

To refuse to shake Gerry Adams’ hand – with all the quasi-racist DUP overtones that that involves – is insulting enough, not only to him but to every single person who voted for him; to accuse him of being involved in a continuing cover-up is preposterous and inflammatory and, far from advancing the campaign for justice for their brother, does it a grave disservice.

I regularly refuse to shake the hands of people who offend me. This does not make me a racist. Suggesting that it should be compulsory to shake Gerry Adam's hand and that we should not be allowed to choose for ourselves whether we do so is offensive. Perhaps we should kneel and kiss his ring too?

As I've already stated, refusing to co-operate with the police is the exact same thing as covering up the crime. So, no, it's not preposterous.

Ironically, what could well do more damage to the McCartney cause than cover-ups and threats is the bandying about of names and accusations in the media by journalists who claim to be supporting the family in its pursuit of justice. Of course, any defence lawyer worth his salt would have a field day throwing up examples of trial by media that seriously compromise the judicial process. And if a judge – in the trial or the appeal – rules that a fair trial is impossible, who will accept the blame for that?

Why, the blame would lie with the people who are exposing these names and identities in public:

Sinn Fein!

Who of course have no interest in ensuring a mistrial of the accused.

Slutmonkey57b

Gir wrote:

Yes!

Its that easy for me.

Do you agree the same applies also to the IRA and SF regarding the McCarthy murder?

Again, I never suggested the IRA or SF organised the murder in advance, so there's nothing to retract. I have only suggested that the IRA and SF and individual members thereof have failed to co-operate with the investigation, or to make statements about what they do or do not know about the crime.

But they the SDLP.. "help" as was said. And its that help and its motivation rather than which phone number and how many digits were in that number that were dialed... that is in question....
Spooky!!

Wht help did they offer? Did they guarantee the travel agent he'd get paid? No. Did an individual member make that offer independant of the party? No. So what did the SDLP do to help the trip?

Ill look at your post in the morning or tomorrow if that ok.

Watching "Ronin" here at the mo.

Take your time.

A Dub in Glasgo

billy the squid wrote:

have these people been questioned or charged with their involvement ?

That question should be directed at the PSNI.

I have recently heard that they have been turning away witnesses and suspects... go figure

A Dub in Glasgo

Slutmonkey57b wrote:

Apart from all the money devoted to things like Bloody Sunday.

Yes... one of the biggest mass murders on these islands and, get this, it was 100% legal.... imagine that! Not one person charged for the murders. Not one person disciplined. In fact, the guy in charge got a knighthood from the biggest parasite of them all.

Who in their right mind would want to be in the middle of a potentially violent riot situation? The only people who actively court a riot, or enjoy them, by definition are psychopaths.

Your ignorance of public protest is startling

This writer evidently has either a very short memory and forgets that the SDLP started the Civil Rights movement and marces in the north, or is trying to whitewash that fact out of history.

The writer does say over the past 35 years which would make it since 1970. By that time, the SDLP had abondoned the Nationalist community.

I'll say it again, since some people are STILL ignoring it, the ONLY PARTY to attempt to use the McCarthy sisters as "poster girls" is Sinn Fein. And yes, that does lead to anger and resentment.

Everybody in this sordid episode is using the McCartney murder for their own ends. To ignore that is to ignore politics.

Perhaps we should kneel and kiss his ring too?

If that is what gets you off

As I've already stated, refusing to co-operate with the police is the exact same thing as covering up the crime. So, no, it's not preposterous.

Was Adams there? If he was not, how can he be accused of refusing to co-operate?

Why, the blame would lie with the people who are exposing these names and identities in public:

The McCartney sisters have named names over the last 4 weeks. What exactly did they give GWB?

billy the squid

Gir wrote:

So why are people bismerching them? THe IRA?

the IRA were prepared to put a bullet in the heads of those who carried out the murder, so it can be safe to assume that they know who did it, why have they not surrendered their membership to the PSNI as per the wishes of the family?

Like the sdlp are kinda not involved..but gettin the blame?

the blame for what, sending a family to see the american president to further their cause for justice for their brother's murder. in my opinion if the party were to do this, which hasnt been proven, it was after all, members of the party and not the party itself that did this, then they should be applauded. it is more than sinn fein, who know who was involved, did.

I see loads people here who seem to have trouble with blaming the sdlp but having no issues tagging the IRA based on the same evidence they kepp repeating?

the family themselves have said that the IRA have nothing to do with the murder itself, but the IRA have yet to surrender the members, or ex-members, to the PSNI, as stated before, as per the wishes of the family.

Why that?

Maybe its me?

it was you that said that, not me.

billy the squid

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

That question should be directed at the PSNI.

I have recently heard that they have been turning away witnesses and suspects... go figure

where have you heard this? sounds a little unproffessional if it is true.

cdebru

billy the squid wrote:

where have you heard this? sounds a little unproffessional if it is true.

happened last week i believe guy turned up at the psni station told to go away they were not ready to talk to him