SDLP caught lying over McCartney "support"

cdebru

Slutmonkey57b wrote:

This writer evidently has either a very short memory and forgets that the SDLP started the Civil Rights movement and marces in the north, or is trying to whitewash that fact out of history.



.

the SDLP was not formed untill 1970 long after the civil rights movement started

founding members had been involved in the civil rights movement among others

Slutmonkey57b

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

Yes... one of the biggest mass murders on these islands and, get this, it was 100% legal.... imagine that! Not one person charged for the murders. Not one person disciplined. In fact, the guy in charge got a knighthood from the biggest parasite of them all.

But a very large long public enquiry into what actually happened in some attempt to get through the rhetoric and stonewalling. What's the point of throwing a fit about bloody sunday in response to what I posted? The whole point of my post was that there is an enquiry in place, not a denial that Bloody Sunday happened.

Your ignorance of public protest is startling

How so? Was the riot that prevented the police from entering the short strand to investigate the crime a spontaneous public protest? How about the stone throwing at the Holy Cross school? Is that normal public protest? How about the organised rioting movement that follows globalisation protestors?

There is a big difference between the million man march, and a "street agitation" at the bottom of the falls road, as well you know.

The writer does say over the past 35 years which would make it since 1970. By that time, the SDLP had abondoned the Nationalist community.

Says who? People kept voting for them. In fact up until very recently they were the majority "nationalist" party. Or do only the people who follow SF count as "nationalist"? And how do you explain John Hume getting the Peace Prize?

[sarcasm]Was that a zionist conspiracy or something? Maybe aliens gave it to him.[/sarcasm]

I'm not attacking you with sarcasm, I'm attacking your "point" that the SDLP has apparantly been doing nothing for the past 35 years and that obviously as a result John Hume's peace prize was awarded for something other than his work in Norn Iron.

Everybody in this sordid episode is using the McCartney murder for their own ends. To ignore that is to ignore politics.

How? Give examples. Show me one other party that engineers photo ops with the McCartneys. Show me one other party that drags them up on stage at their conference. Show me one other party that likes to "warn" the McCartneys about what they can and can't do?

Was Adams there? If he was not, how can he be accused of refusing to co-operate?

By conducting an investigation into what his party members were doing in the pub that night and not releasing that information to the police? By refusing to advise the two forgetful election candidates to make statements to the police rather than their solicitors?

The McCartney sisters have named names over the last 4 weeks. What exactly did they give GWB?

Frustrated at the lack of progress perhaps? SF's esposure of the likely supects predates all of that, and was done very much in the media. So the point still stands.

Slutmonkey57b

cdebru wrote:

the SDLP was not formed untill 1970 long after the civil rights movement started

founding members had been involved in the civil rights movement among others

Which doesn't change my point.

cdebru

billy the squid wrote:

where have you heard this? sounds a little unproffessional if it is true.

story is here
http://www.info-nordirland.de/new_444_e.htm

cdebru

Slutmonkey57b wrote:

Which doesn't change my point.

it does the SDLP could not have started the civil rights movement as it was not formed until 1970
NICRA founded in 1967

notice the chronology

gandalf

cdebru wrote:

story is here
http://www.info-nordirland.de/new_444_e.htm

Didn't this story originate from Sinn Fein and a "senior Republican source"?

mycroft

cdebru wrote:

it does the SDLP could not have started the civil rights movement as it was not formed until 1970
NICRA founded in 1967

notice the chronology

I'm trying to stay out of this. It's not like the SDLP was formed by pod people. who materalised in 1970.

In the late 60s any number of people walked away from SF when the move from a peaceful civil rights movement to violent terrorist organisation occured.

I'm not saying that SF are a violent terrorist organisation, it's when many members of SF walked away due to the direction of the republican movement, that the SDLP was formed, and some of the people were former members of SF, and some of the people were NICRA.

People create a movement not a party. People involved in the SDLP, were involved in the NICRA.

Victor

The writer does say over the past 35 years which would make it since 1970. By that time, the SDLP had abondoned the Nationalist community.

Was this about the time people were chanting "I Ran Away"?

cdebru

mycroft wrote:

People create a movement not a party. People involved in the SDLP, were involved in the NICRA.

absolutely

cdebru

gandalf wrote:

Didn't this story originate from Sinn Fein and a "senior Republican source"?

couldn't tell you were it originated tbh

bonkey

Guys...honest question...

ppl keep talking about a SF / IRA cover-up in this case, complete with intimidation of witnesses etc. Is there evidence to support this other than the lack of evidence and witnesses found?

In other words, is there anything other than the conclusion that because the witnesses aren't coming forward this must mean they're being intimidated into not doing so.

I'm not trying to catch anyone out here....its just that intimidation and/or cover-ups keep getting mentioned, and I haven't read/seen/heard enough out here in foreignville to know whether or not this is simply presumptive, or actually has a more solid basis.

Cheers in advance.

jc

gandalf

cdebru wrote:

couldn't tell you were it originated tbh

Naw thats just where they other news sources like the Indo rag reported the story came from. If true however it is a disgrace and far from being a conspiracy it just shows the PSNI are just as big a shambles as the Gardai down here.

A Dub in Glasgo

Victor wrote:

Was this about the time people were chanting "I Ran Away"?

Yes

gandalf

bonkey wrote:

Guys...honest question...

ppl keep talking about a SF / IRA cover-up in this case, complete with intimidation of witnesses etc. Is there evidence to support this other than the lack of evidence and witnesses found?

In other words, is there anything other than the conclusion that because the witnesses aren't coming forward this must mean they're being intimidated into not doing so.

I'm not trying to catch anyone out here....its just that intimidation and/or cover-ups keep getting mentioned, and I haven't read/seen/heard enough out here in foreignville to know whether or not this is simply presumptive, or actually has a more solid basis.

Cheers in advance.

jc

Well I think the majority of this info bonkey is coming from the Sisters themselves as several of the TV interviews I have seen have them stating that there is intimidation and a cover up.

Anyway we are heading off topic again.

billy the squid

i believe that the PSNI is turning away solicitors of witnesses as their evidence is inadmissable. it is only hearsay. what the likes of Mister Hayes needs to do is go to the PSNI himself, not through his solicitor.

he might not trust the PSNI but it is what the family want isnt it. that should supercede his misgivings about the PSNI

A Dub in Glasgo

billy the squid wrote:

i believe that the PSNI is turning away solicitors of witnesses as their evidence is inadmissable. it is only hearsay. what the likes of Mister Hayes needs to do is go to the PSNI himself, not through his solicitor.

he might not trust the PSNI but it is what the family want isnt it. that should supercede his misgivings about the PSNI

Why do you believe that?

From the linked newspaper report

It is understood that the PSNI has taken detailed statements from three men who had been in the bar on that night. One of the statements was recorded. It identifies by name some of the individuals allegedly involved in the events leading up to Mr McCartney’s death.

At least one other written statement names individuals alleged to be involved in a physical confrontation in the bar.

In the six weeks since Mr McCartney was killed, not one of the individuals named in the statements has been charged in connection with his murder. It is believed that one of the men who has already given a detailed statement to the PSNI approached police again yesterday in a bid to make a signed eyewitness statement.

However, it is understood the man was told that the senior detective in charge of the murder investigation was not available. The man was then sent away.

A signed witness statement would empower the PSNI to make immediate arrests and bring charges.

Daily Ireland has learned that the PSNI yesterday rejected another offer, this time from a solicitor representing a second man who had witnessed events in Magennis’s Bar on January 30. The man was offering to make himself available for interview.

billy the squid

it all depends on what was in the statements. I doubt the PSNI will be calling cora groody back any time soon. her statement wasnt very helpful now was it.

A signed witness statement would empower the PSNI to make immediate arrests and bring charges.

Surely it would depend on what was in the statement, ie what the witness saw?
An arrest would only be prudent when theres enough in the case file to bring it to court.
Bear in mind also, that the PSNI may be understandably warey of any witness ordered to their station by the IRA if they believe that to be the case.

Do we know who the individual is and if the police got back to him?(don't mention names here, a simple link to an update will suffice)

The major consideration here is that we are not privy to the investigation and thus its probably best not to rush to conclusions about it based on just selected facts.

A Dub in Glasgo

I don't know who it was and it would depend if he was going to 'spill the beans' so to speak as to whether the PSNI could act on it.

Well I'd imagine they would need more than one witness to the bar part of the incident and at least two eye witnesses to the fracas outside to firm up a case given that the area was forensically cleaned of evidence.
As we dont know who was involved in the daily Ireland report or their evidence then its rash to draw conclusions.
We dont even know if that person has been spoken to since.

cdebru

yes but the point is that the PSNI were making statements that no witnesses had come forward and that there was intimidation

this guy hayes says he has given them his details twice and no contact has been made
also interesting that he says no effort was made to secure the area at the time to protect any evidence there may have been
and lastly he says people were allowed to finish their drinks and then leave which sounds odd considering the picture i had was that the men involved in the attack had closed the pub and held 70 odd people against their will while a forensic clean up was done while this man claims people were still drinking when the PSNI came

cdebru

cdebru wrote:

yes but the point is that the PSNI were making statements that no witnesses had come forward and that there was intimidation

Well we dont know who this guy is,(apart from a newspaper article)it would carry more weight if he was out in the open saying this, as for a start we could determine what sort of witness he was, ie was he in the bar only,outside the bar or both and how crucial the evidence is.
Is the witness in question out in the public domain saying what he/she is saying or is it all anonymous?

this guy hayes says he has given them his details twice and no contact has been made
also interesting that he says no effort was made to secure the area at the time to protect any evidence there may have been
and lastly he says people were allowed to finish their drinks and then leave which sounds odd considering the picture i had was that the men involved in the attack had closed the pub and held 70 odd people against their will while a forensic clean up was done while this man claims people were still drinking when the PSNI came

I hope you're not putting much faith there in an unknown witness whose evidence hasnt been tested in a court of law.
Wouldnt you like to see who exactly is saying this first?(the colour of his eyes so to speak) and have some independent test of what they are saying?
I did read in a quoted article in one of the threads here recently that a taxi man who gave Cora Gregan a ride to the next pub said she was on the phone to someone going into great detail as to what happened.
Of course she knew nothing when it came to talking to the PSNI.

I tell you what, we'll give that account a wide berth too untill we see how this progresses...

Cork

There is a very interesting statement on the SDLP website. A party that has behaved responsibly over the last 35 years.


[QUOTE"The truth is that Sinn Fein has been up to its neck in a political
cover up of the truth about this murder. Their only concern has been to limit
damage to themselves.
[/QUOTE]

Here are the facts:
* I knew the day after the murder what happened in the bar that
night. It was the talk of the Markets and the Short Strand.
* Yet, the day after the murder, Alex Maskey tried to pass it
off as an example of "knife culture" as if this were some kind of bar room
brawl as opposed to the savage slaughter by a Provo mob that it was.
* Alex Maskey refused to condemn orchestrated riots that
frustrated police searches of suspects' houses. Yet he did condemn the police
searches themselves.
* Alex Maskey attacked me for saying that IRA men were responsible
for the murder. Yet they were - and everybody in the community knew
it.
* Those involved in the murder included election workers for
Alex Maskey. Some of them even threatened my election workers at the last
Assembly election.

* Gerry Adams said nothing about the murder for two whole
weeks. He only came out about it publicly when he was forced out by the McCartney sisters speaking out.
* Even though I had the names of those believed to have carried
out the murder within 24 hours, Gerry Adams claims that he only became
aware of the names weeks later when the McCartney family passed them to him. Now things have got worse. Alex Maskey is sending me solicitors'
letters because I have stated the obvious - that he is covering up the truth
about what happened. "I stand by what I said. The SDLP will not be intimidated by these bully boy tactics. It is appalling that at at time when Sinn Fein should beencouraging everybody to tell the truth, they are threatening to sue me for doing just that.
"I am challenging Sinn Fein to come clean now. In particular, I am
demanding that they say whether any of those suspended from Sinn Fein
were
election workers for Alex Maskey."
:

cdebru

Earthman wrote:

Well we dont know who this guy is,(apart from a newspaper article)it would carry more weight if he was out in the open saying this, as for a start we could determine what sort of witness he was, ie was he in the bar only,outside the bar or both and how crucial the evidence is.
Is the witness in question out in the public domain saying what he/she is saying or is it all anonymous?


I hope you're not putting much faith there in an unknown witness whose evidence hasnt been tested in a court of law.
Wouldnt you like to see who exactly is saying this first?(the colour of his eyes so to speak) and have some independent test of what they are saying?
I did read in a quoted article in one of the threads here recently that a taxi man who gave Cora Gregan a ride to the next pub said she was on the phone to someone going into great detail as to what happened.
Of course she knew nothing when it came to talking to the PSNI.

I tell you what, we'll give that account a wide berth too untill we see how this progresses...

No this is another witness a former Belfast city councillor Sean Hayes

Seán Hayes, a former Belfast City councillor and assembly election candidate, last night confirmed that he had been in Magennis’s Bar on January 30.
Earlier this week, it emerged that former Mid-Ulster assembly election candidate Cora Groogan and south Belfast local government candidate Deirdre Hargey had also been in the bar on the night of the murder.
Despite twice providing the PSNI with his personal details within 24 hours of Mr McCartney’s murder, Mr Hayes said he was still waiting for the PSNI to contact his solicitor in relation to the incident.
“I was in the bar the night Robert McCartney died,” said Mr Hayes.
“After the whole incident was over, the PSNI came in and took everyone’s names.
“They didn’t ask anyone to leave the bar or attempt to turn it into a scene of a crime.
“It was all very laid-back and casual. They asked us to leave when we had finished our drinks.
“The following day, they turned up at my work. They were going door to door through the Markets district. Again, I gave them my details and made it clear that I would not speak to them directly as I don’t trust them.
“I told them, if they wanted to talk to me about the incident, they would have to do it through my solicitor.”
However, Mr Hayes said that, despite this, the PSNI had made no effort to contact him for details relating to the incident.

http://62.253.251.16/dailyireland/home.tvt?_ticket=9NTHLXD4YGSGX40MHONDL1Q39LLDPJSGZRUHOOPDFSZDALOL6Z5FURUSJORE9NTHLF8WBHSJ7QRFOSMAAT2DALOLZVOX8EKWWZ&_scope=DailyIreland/Content/News&id=1749&_page=&opp=1

sceptre

irish1 wrote:

No need for that at all.

Agreed. Lemming, tone the language down a wee bit (specifically the barrack room stuff, the regular english is fine). As a regular user I don't have too much of a problem with it where it can be used to emphasise a point (as in say "big ****ing tractor" (although IIRC the phrase is generally "big ****off tractor"), as a moderator I do (as in say "****ing martyr's cross" (which to to someone like me that the occasional passer-by regards as a pedant doesn't make any sense).

sceptre

Now with mod mode off, as for cdebru's-provided report, while I'm probably not a fan of the raison d'etre of Daily Ireland (and for the record (which I shouldn't have to do) have regarded the Sindo as a bag of balls for well over a decade as well), I'm not impressed with anything that's come out in that report. Except for the report itself. I'm not the greatest fan of the reluctance to talk directly to the PSNI on any matter, though I can understand that there's a large part of the community that due to past (and some current) concerns feels that way but that's obviously the least of my problems with the issues raised by the report, and a side-issue considering the comments made re the scene of the crime and the lack of contact with the solicitor in a crime investigation.

The big question is obviously why no-one has contacted the solicitor of Mr Hayes to see if he's got something valuable to add to the investigation. There are a number of possibilities on this and yes, one of the possibilities is that someone doesn't want this investigation to end any time soon. There's also the possibility that they're still running around for other leads but I would imagine, as someone who's never had all that many dealings with the police, that some brief contact establishing that there is in fact a statement available would be good for a start. There's also the major issue of the crime scene not being treated like a crime scene (assuming Sean Hayes is telling the truth and we've no reason to doubt that) which would be regarded as rather odd, to say the least, in my mind.

cdebru

whatever about the raison d'etre of Daily Ireland the very least that can be said for it is that it is at least coming up with information that is not available in other media outlets

sceptre

cdebru wrote:

whatever about the raison d'etre of Daily Ireland the very least that can be said for it is that it is at least coming up with information that is not available in other media outlets

sceptre wrote:

I'm not impressed with anything that's come out in that report. Except for the report itself.

I don't have a problem with a new thread on Daily Ireland itself, either here or on the News/Media board. Or a thread on the Sindo in either place.

cdebru

cdebru wrote:

No this is another witness a former Belfast city councillor Sean Hayes

Ah yes I remember it more correctly now.
My point still though is not to draw conclusions soley from a party who are under fire from the family for not doing enough or even frustrating an accurate account of what happened.
Theres a lot of fog out there and it will take the investigation to clear it assuming theres enough co-operation, which unfortunately is short in coming.
I've no reason not to take what the sisters say at face value( linky regarding the taxi driver curtesy of Billy the squid ) which would indicate to me that they are suggesting that Sinn Féin representatives have as more their own parties interest at heart than justice ergo I wont conclude anything just yet,I could be pushed to give an opinion though.

cdebru

well tbh I suspect that a lot of people are not coming forward not due to intimidation although that could be an issue in some cases but out of a misplaced sense of loyalty

I also have a deep suspicion that the PSNI have been dragging their heels a bit on this

in relation to the alleged taxi driver has he been identified


the more i hear about this the more it reminds me of the club annabels killing people not coming forward out of loyalty rather than fear people giving accounts in taxis on the way home that are not reflected in their statements


I also suspect that the sisters did not do themselves any favours by visiting George Bush who has the blood of more innocent civilians on his hands in a few days in Iraq than the IRA managed in 30 odd years.

the over exposure in the media and the comments made about gerry adams and not shaking his hand I suspect will not play well in republican nationalist areas I think they have been badly advised over the last 2 to 3 weeks wether that was the SDLP or themselves I don't know but i think they have allowed the focus to come of the search for justice