IBB looking for testers for 2Mb product

Mutant_Fruit

The 2Mb product at €40 plus VAT and the 3Mb product at €79 plus VAT will be where most of the Boardsters will want to be. No caps and no limitations....

Be wary about saying/advertising no limitations and then applying QoS to people. Seems a tad contradictary. It'd be hard proving that QoS isn't limiting your ability to download

Other than that, seems good. Looks like i'll still be paying the €48 per month for the capless connection, not that i particularly need 2 meg.

gsand

Hi,

erm well thanks for replying to my questions but my feeling sare as follows.

You state that I will be upgraded to a 1meg something or other connection which will not be as good as the other current 1meg connections due to technology or whatever. Yet I had obviously signed up to IBB prior to others and this is why I have inferior technology and am therefore at present stuck on 512k and will soon be on a poorer 1meg whilst people who signed up later and have hence payed IBB less in the long run will be on a better service at 2meg???!!!

In addition I am still going to be paying 48euro a month????

Personally I would expect someone to get me onto an improved package regardless of if it involves getting a new radio in my house (which we note is only down the road from headquarters), software change or whatever. Seriously why for the life of me would I want to continue on an inferior package to everyone else when I am infact a longer term paying customer?


I am outside of the 1 year contract( I mean I have completed it) so if this is the plan for those of us who have been with IBB for some time then I'm certainly off to smart.


Btw I dunno what this access thing is but if it is what was breeze home plus, then that's me...if not well I guess the above rant isnt applicable but then I would like to know when I am going to see 2meg anyway!

OldTitan

Blaster99 wrote:

Boardsters might also wonder, being the mathematically capable lot that they are, how it is that something that is 50% faster costs twice as much?

The answer is contention. Bear in mind that any ISP or network operator pays a minimum of €50 to 100 per month per uncontended 1Mb for IP transit depending on carrier and quality. That is before network depreciation and overhead costs.

OldTitan

Ciaran500 wrote:

Is there any reason why my connection is limited to 235kb/s everyday since the upgrade. But at around 6 it shoots up to 2mb/s. I doubt I triggeered the QoS, I downloaded about a gb yesterday.

I'm on the Lucan mast and my pings are still perfect.

Business customers use their bandwidth during the day, so bandwidth sharing will kick in. Once they go offline, the rest of the bandwidth is shared amongst the users that are online.

Steffano2002

OldTitan, don't forget my post #241!

Blaster99

OldTitan wrote:

The answer is contention. Bear in mind that any ISP or network operator pays a minimum of €50 to 100 per month per uncontended 1Mb for IP transit depending on carrier and quality. That is before network depreciation and overhead costs.

Aha, and does the carrier charge more per unit the more units you buy? No I didn't think so. IBB is obviously just mimicking Eircom's pricing, a pricing structure that makes no sense either. But I suppose until Smart comes along with another BB killer product we will be stuck with this kind of pricing. I think all of you will find that few people will bother with those higher priced products because it just doesn't make any sense to pay twice as much for something that only delivers 50% more on the rare occasions that one would need that extra speed.

Ciaran500

OldTitan wrote:

Business customers use their bandwidth during the day, so bandwidth sharing will kick in. Once they go offline, the rest of the bandwidth is shared amongst the users that are online.

Is it going to stay like this?

235kb/s is not acceptable on a 2mb/s connection.

PowerHouseDan

Got to agree with you there Ciaran

Ciaran500 wrote:

Is it going to stay like this?

235kb/s is not acceptable on a 2mb/s connection.

Shiny

OldTitan wrote:

Business customers use their bandwidth during the day, so bandwidth sharing will kick in. Once they go offline, the rest of the bandwidth is shared amongst the users that are online.

Boo. I think the sharing is slightly too severe. I have 2 computers playing
battlefield at frequently during the day and the pings are ok but often
there isn't enough bandwidth for 2 players!!! Come one!! each player only
needs around 8-11kBytes/sec to have a good game.

It is so obvious that the connection is limited, but couldn't the limit be closer
to around 40k/sec during the dayas opposed to sub 25k/sec????

If a 2 meg connection cant do 20k a second, then what is the point.

Kevok

Hmmm, been getting about 25KB/sec from IBB's ftp all day today. It's probably just the QoS they're testing, but if it stays this way over the weekend I'll be a little irate. For e84.70 a month thats not really on.

That said though, have to give Old Titan my sincerest thanks. I've been a bit of a pain in the ass over the last week and he's been nothing but helpful!

OldTitan

Steffano2002 wrote:

Hello everyone!


I have 2 questions also:

- That whole "QoS"/"Fair usage policy" only applies to residential customers right? I'm a business customer so I hope it doesn't apply to me!

- Contention Ratio: I had a 1MB with 8:1 before the 2MB upgrade. I believe I am now on 2MB with 16:1. Is that correct? I'd really like to be on 2MB with 8:1!!!

Thank you!

Sorry for being slow, the day job keeps me busy....

Answer - fair usage - IBB does not at present distinguish between business and residential users, but does not have a single business user that approaches 1Gb per day downloads... :rolleyes:

Contention: I've posted a new thread regarding the outcome of the trials and we are asking opinions. With the proposal per the new thread, contention will never really matter in reality.

OT

OldTitan

Blaster99 wrote:

Aha, and does the carrier charge more per unit the more units you buy? No I didn't think so. IBB is obviously just mimicking Eircom's pricing, a pricing structure that makes no sense either. But I suppose until Smart comes along with another BB killer product we will be stuck with this kind of pricing. I think all of you will find that few people will bother with those higher priced products because it just doesn't make any sense to pay twice as much for something that only delivers 50% more on the rare occasions that one would need that extra speed.

If you look at Eircom's pricing, and you compare it to IBB's pricing, you will see that it actually mimicks what IBB introduced nearly a year ago already.

I think that you will always find IBB's pricing to be extremely competitive. Who introduced the first Broadband price at E40 plus VAT? Who introduced the only symetrical Broadband product into the market? Who introduced the first 512kbps product below E30? Who was first to offer 1Mb for E40 plus VAT? IBB has been the market leader in terms of value for money since it started 3 years ago, and will remain so.

OT

Ciaran500

If you don't distinguish between businees and residential then why does it matter that " Business customers use their bandwidth during the day, so bandwidth sharing will kick in."

Shouldn't bandwith sharing kick in for the busines users and drop them to the lower speeds since they are affecting my Quality of service.

OldTitan

Ciaran500 wrote:

Is it going to stay like this?

235kb/s is not acceptable on a 2mb/s connection.

We were testing various metrics to see what provides best service in general. See the new thread asking for comment.

Just bear in mind that 2Mb max does not mean that you will get 2Mb all the time. It depends on the usage of the other users online at the time as well. IBB has a number of business customers on 3, 4, 5 and 6Mb connections and the bandwidth has to be shared amongst all fairly. Business users only use their bandwidth between 08h00 and 18h00. Residential users use it 24/7 in some cases. So it means that the daytime is the busiest time. Research shows that 80% of residential users connect after 18h00, so most ISP's and network operators will structure their network to ensure that business clients have more access in the day and the residential clients more at night. As IBB does not distinguish between business and residential, the radios simply share the bandwidth between the number of users online. All business users will be online the whole day. Residential users will vary their usage, meaning that more bandwidth is available after 18h00 generally.

From the testing we find that the QoS tools available are inadequate for the needs of our customers, hence the new thread asking for opinions, before IBB makes a final decision on what to do based on the findings from the trial.

OT

OldTitan

Ciaran500 wrote:

If you don't distinguish between businees and residential then why does it matter that " Business customers use their bandwidth during the day, so bandwidth sharing will kick in."

Shouldn't bandwith sharing kick in for the busines users and drop them to the lower speeds since they are affecting my Quality of service.

It does, but as few business users run downloads 24/7, it does not affect them in any significant way. The bulk of what they do is web browsing and e-mail. Those that need downlaod and upload capacity take uncontended leased line services. Residential users running downloads notice it immediately when contention or QoS kicks in. You will only see it on a download, else it will not significantly affect you.

Cheers

OT

OldTitan

Shiny wrote:

Boo. I think the sharing is slightly too severe. I have 2 computers playing
battlefield at frequently during the day and the pings are ok but often
there isn't enough bandwidth for 2 players!!! Come one!! each player only
needs around 8-11kBytes/sec to have a good game.

It is so obvious that the connection is limited, but couldn't the limit be closer
to around 40k/sec during the dayas opposed to sub 25k/sec????

If a 2 meg connection cant do 20k a second, then what is the point.

You should never get to 25k/sec except on a RipWave connection, and then seldom during the day. On a Breeze connection it should not happen. IBB has more than enough backhaul capacity.

If it persists, let me know and I will have it checked for you. 2Mb connections should not see less than 128kbps at the very worst during peak times.

Cheers

OT

Ciaran500

If everyone (except the people on a leased line) has to have there speed slowed during the day then surely the mast need more bandwith.

I do notice the QoS kicking in when browsing.

EDIT: Shiny is probably talking about 25kB/s (200kb/s)

Steffano2002

OldTitan wrote:

Answer - fair usage - IBB does not at present distinguish between business and residential users, but does not have a single business user that approaches 1Gb per day downloads... :rolleyes:

Why are we (business customers) paying nearly twice as much then? :eek: Same contention now, same download limit (by that I mean same fair usage policy for all), same ping... I know we have that Service Level Agreement but to be honest if it is the reason why I am paying double I don't want it!
Furthermore, I read my contract/terms & conditions and when it talks about that fair usage policy, it always says "residential customers"!

OldTitan wrote:

Contention: I've posted a new thread regarding the outcome of the trials and we are asking opinions. With the proposal per the new thread, contention will never really matter in reality.

Help!? I can't find it...

Ciaran500

Its bellow this thread

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=243642

OldTitan

Steffano2002 wrote:

Why are we (business customers) paying nearly twice as much then? :eek: Same contention now, same download limit (by that I mean same fair usage policy for all), same ping... I know we have that Service Level Agreement but to be honest if it is the reason why I am paying double I don't want it!
Furthermore, I read my contract/terms & conditions and when it talks about that fair usage policy, it always says "residential customers"!

Help!? I can't find it...

All I said was that business customers would not feel the impact as IBB has none that uses 1Gb or more per day. The only product set that would be affected by this would be the currect 1Mb product as upgraded to either 2Mb or 3Mb with limits. As IBB has a single product range and does not distinguish between business and residential customers, except for RipWave, you are paying the same as a business customer, as what a residential customer does for the same connection....

There are perhaps around 50 residential customers out of several thousand that would be affected. Hence the reason we are asking opinions.

Steffano2002

Ciaran500 wrote:

Its bellow this thread

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=243642

Thanks Ciaran! Found it eventually! I think OldTitan was still writing it when I was looking for it

Steffano2002

OldTitan wrote:

All I said was that business customers would not feel the impact as IBB has none that uses 1Gb or more per day. The only product set that would be affected by this would be the currect 1Mb product as upgraded to either 2Mb or 3Mb with limits. As IBB has a single product range and does not distinguish between business and residential customers, except for RipWave, you are paying the same as a business customer, as what a residential customer does for the same connection....

So that fair usage policy would also kick in if I download more than 1GB a day (if that's what IBB decides to do going forward etc...)? I went with the more expensive business connection because I wanted a better contention ratio (8:1). Now even that's gone... So you will agree when I say I am better off becoming a residential customer... right?

gsand

Am i getting totally hard eeeezed on my issue here???

For the life of me I can't get anyone to sort me out on the phone and everyone else but my questions get answered here lolz.

Mutant_Fruit

business customers are allowed run servers on their connections afaik. Residential can't. Thats a difference between the connections.

enno

Steffano2002 wrote:

Pings were very bad yesterday all evening. Then, all of a sudden, they became perfect again (can't remember what time exactly though - it was late enough)! I'm still getting little spikes here and there but I believe this is an issue experienced by me only and IBB are looking into it (for the past 17 days...).

I wonder why you believe that? I've learned to expect RTT all over the shop. Average packet loss since I started measuring is over 8% (and peaks at 100%). You can see my graphs at http://bark.no8.be/smokeping/smokeping.cgi if you're interested.

Blaster99

Mutant_Fruit wrote:

business customers are allowed run servers on their connections afaik. Residential can't. Thats a difference between the connections.

I don't think the distinction is made. The 2Mbps service is incidently advertised as "Breeze 2 MB [sic] is the product of choice for SMEs. In addition it can be utilised for invoice dispatch, website hosting, e-mail hosting and branch office communication." so clearly it's allowed on that service level.

I would be very surprised if there's any real difference between the 20:1 and 8:1 services, by the way. I'm on the 8:1 service and I see about as many problems with performance as everyone else does.

Steffano2002

Mutant_Fruit wrote:

business customers are allowed run servers on their connections afaik. Residential can't. Thats a difference between the connections.

You'll have to explain that to me Mutant_Fruit. What is it I can do exactly?

OldTitan

Steffano2002 wrote:

So that fair usage policy would also kick in if I download more than 1GB a day (if that's what IBB decides to do going forward etc...)? I went with the more expensive business connection because I wanted a better contention ratio (8:1). Now even that's gone... So you will agree when I say I am better off becoming a residential customer... right?

Hi Steffano,

Response as requested. I will only cover the issues related to the business connection aspect - IBB does not have seperate business and residential packages on the Breeze product, so you cannot pay for a 'more expensive business connection'. What you do pay for is a more expensive connection for better contention rates. It does not matter whether you are a residential or business connection - it is the same. What I have said before though, is that each user will have bandwidth allocated to them by the radio pro-rata to the available bandwidth, based on their CIR settings. That means the contention level minimum guaranteed.

IBB does not have a single business user that uses their connection 24/7 to the maximum level, or even close to that. However, about 5 to 7% of residential users on the 1Mb packages use 80% of the bandwidth used each day. Tiscali recently decided to terminate the contracts of their 'bandwidth hogs'. Given the fact that our radios do automatic load balancing reasonably OK, there are some factors that will at times cause them to not distribute load as evenly as it should when you have a customer downloading at 100% capacity. It just means that an engineer has to spend 30 minutes every time investigating complaints and then to re distribute the load when he finds other customers complaining about not getting enough bandwidth. IBB is therefore looking to find means of managing the small minority of customers who cause 60% of the complaints from other customers about lack of download capacity for them. It is about providing a high quality fo service to ALL our customers, not just to the 5% who contribute less than 1% of the revenue.

All the various posts are being taken into account. The trial will end today and IBB will announce their new packages in the press this week. All 1Mb customers will be increased to 2MB for the same price, uncapped, but subject to acceptable usage and a 30Mb capped cheaper residential 1Mb service will be introduced at E35.99 with a free connection. The capping on the new low end residential package will work as per the above where we will reduce the pipe to 256kbps once the user hits the cap. This will be purely a residential offering, not available to business users.

Cheers

OT

Steffano2002

Thank you for your reply OldTitan!

So if I understand your message correctly, I am paying nearly double simply to have a 8:1 contention ratio as opposed to 20:1? That's fine. But are the below speeds what I can expect from now on even though I only share my line with 7 other customers (as opposed to 19)?

Downstream 232 Kbps (29.0 KB/sec) 250 Kbps (inc. overheads)
Upstream 347 Kbps (43.4 KB/sec) 374 Kbps (inc. overheads)

Furthermore, I tried downloading a couple of files from www.download.com and I'm always at >30KB/s.

I don't know but the above results seem awfully poor to me for a 2Mbit connection with a 8:1 contention ratio.

gsand

lol

maybe i should rephrase my previous question since it was ignored

how will I get from this 512k 8:1 to 2meg service now which apparently I am entitled to as an upgrade?