SF/IRAs record against drug dealers

Villain

Sand wrote:

So then you do believe that Northern Catholics prefer their policing to be unacountable and to involve half a dozen men in balaclavas armed with medieval clubs torturing 14 year olds? Do you have that low an opinion of people from Northern Ireland?

Prefer????? where did I say that Sand???

Rock Climber

You didnt
he was asking you a question about whether you believe catholics in the North prefer balaclava'ed thugs to carry out so called justice than the current psni.
Bearing in mind that the McCartney murder was an obvious miscarriage of justice by them as were many many others.
Whether it was approved or not is immaterial because if there wasnt such a fuss these people no doubt would be off on IRA approved " justice" beatings after that brutal murder.

Theres no justice with the IRA at all so do you believe its what the majority of catholics prefer to the psni at the moment? province wide now , not just in the short strand?

And could you answer all the question, not just bits of it this time thanks.

Villain

He said

So then you do believe

, I do not believe people prefer to go to the IRA, I simply stated they do.

BTW the only other question he asked me was

Do you have that low an opinion of people from Northern Ireland?

I think my above answer answered that question. The rest of the questions he asked were directed at other posters.

A Dub in Glasgo

Rock Climber wrote:

You didnt
he was asking you a question about whether you believe catholics in the North prefer balaclava'ed thugs to carry out so called justice than the current psni.

I would say some of them are

Bearing in mind that the McCartney murder was an obvious miscarriage of justice by them as were many many others.

What are you getting at here?

AFAIK, there was a drunken incident in a pub where someone said something insulting to a woman. A man went to the 2 people and was stabbed and injured by one of them. He went to hospital. The two people where then taken outside, beaten up and stabbed. One of them died, the other was injured.

Whether it was approved or not is immaterial because if there wasnt such a fuss these people no doubt would be off on IRA approved " justice" beatings after that brutal murder.

Hardly immaterial if a lot of people are now climing that the IRA had an approved operation against the 2 men.

Theres no justice with the IRA at all so do you believe its what the majority of catholics prefer to the psni at the moment? province wide now , not just in the short strand?

Some people in the areas affected see justice from the IRA as acceptable. This will not change until the PSNI are an acceptable force in those areas. This is obviously a statement of fact and no amount of jumping up and down here will change it. It is an abonimation of justice but that is where we are at.

Slutmonkey57b

I'm interested to see that we're expected to give the IRA credit for the peace process and the changes in NI over the past 10 years.

That version of history, while flattering to SF, is hardly true. The Peace Train movement, and the efforts of the SDLP evidently had nothing to do with it. The revulsion of the population to the Warrington bombings and Adams' failure to apologise or admit the obvious truth of the situation; eg that putting a bomb in a bin outside a shopping centre does nothing whatsoever to alleviate the problems of the north evidently had nothing to do with removing the vestige of an excuse that people used to justify the IRA's existance didn't do anything to advance the peace process either.

The vote north & south of the border that the terrorists had no business existing any more and that the people wanted to have a settlement negotiated by peaceful, democratic and consensual means obviously means nothing.

It's all thanks to the IRA bombing people for 30 years.

Rock Climber

irish1 wrote:

He said , I do not believe people prefer to go to the IRA, I simply stated they do.

BTW the only other question he asked me was I think my above answer answered that question. The rest of the questions he asked were directed at other posters.

He had a question mark after the statement-therefore it was a question.
When you say they do-some, all ,many? what percentage do you think prefer to go to the IRA rather than the police,do you think its a majority of catholics? I don't-but I do think that the guys in that pub would be mad if they did, as they most likely would get a hiding or be killed given past experiences and thats intimidation.

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

AFAIK, there was a drunken incident in a pub where someone said something insulting to a woman. A man went to the 2 people and was stabbed and injured by one of them. He went to hospital. The two people where then taken outside, beaten up and stabbed. One of them died, the other was injured.
Hardly immaterial if a lot of people are now climing that the IRA had an approved operation against the 2 men.

Immaterial in the sense that miscarriages of justice are carried out willy nilly with no comeback and total impunuty by the IRA.If there had been no fuss by the mccartney sisters these murderers would probably be looking at another list from their commanders to carry out more injustices, thats what I meant by immaterial ie those like them will be at it again with impunity-no comeback.

Some people in the areas affected see justice from the IRA as acceptable. This will not change until the PSNI are an acceptable force in those areas. This is obviously a statement of fact and no amount of jumping up and down here will change it. It is an abonimation of justice but that is where we are at.

How do you know the level of acceptance of IRA thuggery? I'd contend a lot of it is just fear of doing anything about it and then theres the genuine hard liners who support it. surely counting the Sinn Féin votes up doesnt equate to support for this type of thing as they are opposed to punishment beatings arent they?

Mighty_Mouse

Chicken, egg etc - how can you trust a Police service you won't use. Until the public start to let go of the preconceptions, both the police and the public will sit there staring at each other, the police being rendered pretty useless because the public won't utilise them.

lord! How can having a fair, equal and just police force be described as a chicken and egg situation.

You accept that nationalist wont use the police force but you dont even accept there is a problem with the police, in the light of colusion, murder, assinations, orange order parade support etc etc you talk of "preconceptions".

Get real. This in not a case of preconceptions that maybe a marketing campaign can solve.

There is inherent sectarian problems with the corrent policine structures in the north.

Are you suggesting that catholics joining an inherent/structurally sectarian and corrupt police force solves the problems?

Chicken and egg, my backside.

I wouldnt mind but republicans were even prepared to do this for the sake of getting a stable government in the north.

Villain

Rock Climber wrote:

He had a question mark after the statement-therefore it was a question.
When you say they do-some, all ,many? what percentage do you think prefer to go to the IRA rather than the police,do you think its a majority of catholics? I don't-but I do think that the guys in that pub would be mad if they did, as they most likely would get a hiding or be killed given past experiences and thats intimidation.

For the love of god will you please read the posts before you reply, I said:

I do not believe people prefer to go to the IRA, I simply stated they do

SO once again I'll say it again, read it slowly this time I do not believe people prefer to go to the IRA

Mighty_Mouse

surely counting the Sinn Féin votes up doesnt equate to support for this type of thing as they are opposed to punishment beatings arent they?

Agreed. I'm not sure all the details of the above incident but at least you accept that isolated incidents of thuggery are not support by the general republican population.

Rock Climber

irish1 wrote:

For the love of god will you please read the posts before you reply, I said:

SO once again I'll say it again, read it slowly this time I do not believe people prefer to go to the IRA

yeah I saw that Irish1.
Sand and I only wanted you to confirm that, it took a few posts though.
And also,I was questioning your assertion that sand wasnt asking you a question-he was!!

Villain

Rock Climber wrote:

yeah I saw that Irish1.
Sand and I only wanted you to confirm that, it took a few posts though.
And also,I was questioning your assertion that sand wasnt asking you a question-he was!!

Well he was leading the witness so

I do believe people go to the IRA rather than the PSNI, I don't think anyone with any knowledge of the northern situation would deny that, but I never stated people prefer to do it.

Sand

Prefer????? where did I say that Sand???

I'm not saying I agree with people who choose to go to the IRA rather than the PSNI, I'm just stating the situation as I know it. The legacy of the RUC lives on, if you honestly believe people don't go to the PSNI soley because of fear you are very ignorant to the situation.

Prefer

You claim people are not afraid to go to the PSNI due to SF/IRA attacks, so then they by default must be making their decisions on which provides them with the most value, rather than which threatens them most. I.E. which they prefer. So do you still believe that Catholics prefer gangs of balaclaved thugs beating 14 year old kids up over a uniformed, accountable police force that revently won accolades as having the highest human rights standards of all the police forces in the UK? Apparently some members of a rival "police" force disagreed, but they may have been celebrating the concept of irony.

SO once again I'll say it again, read it slowly this time I do not believe people prefer to go to the IRA

So then you agree, that it is the fear of the SF/IRA thugs that prevents them from engaging with PSNI investigations?

Villain

It is not one single issue that stops people from going to the PSNI, IMO there are some who would not go because of fear, others do not trust the PSNI because of many reasons and they choose to go to the IRA or just say nothing. People make choices and since neither you or I live in the community we can't say whether they make the right or wrong choice.

If the paton report is implemented and a fair and just police service is introduced alot more people will go to the PSNI and over time the majority of people will learn to trust them.

Sand if you honestly believe it is only fear that prevents people from going to the PSNI, I think you need to go educate yourself on the situation a little more. This is not a black and white issue, it is very complicated.

BuffyBot

lord! How can having a fair, equal and just police force be described as a chicken and egg situation.

Of course, when will it be "fair, equal and just" enough for some people? For some people, it seems a case of "Never" - and that's the problem IMHO.

You accept that nationalist wont use the police force but you dont even accept there is a problem with the police, in the light of colusion, murder, assinations, orange order parade support etc etc you talk of "preconceptions".

Yes, I talk of preconceptions. It's tarring every PSNI officer with the same brush, and a brush covered in crap from the past at that. The "we're poor victims" cry is getting old and it's about time they made a move towards using the proper channels. It's not like the "bad old days" - there is a huge amount of scrutiny on the PSNI, plus the Police Ombudsman is in place.

Are you suggesting that catholics joining an inherent/structurally sectarian and corrupt police force solves the problems?

If there is so much corruption taking place, let them bring it out into the open. Until then, it's nothing but speculation and innuendo. As for Catholics joining, that's up to them - but unless they get involved, they can hardly have much ground to say thing are "structurally sectarian".

Chicken and egg, my backside.

I wouldnt mind but republicans were even prepared to do this for the sake of getting a stable government in the north.

mycroft

irish1 wrote:

It is not one single issue that stops people from going to the PSNI, IMO there are some who would not go because of fear, others do not trust the PSNI because of many reasons and they choose to go to the IRA or just say nothing. People make choices and since neither you or I live in the community we can't say whether they make the right or wrong choice.

If the paton report is implemented and a fair and just police service is introduced alot more people will go to the PSNI and over time the majority of people will learn to trust them.

Sand if you honestly believe it is only fear that prevents people from going to the PSNI, I think you need to go educate yourself on the situation a little more. This is not a black and white issue, it is very complicated.

Seeing as the Pro SF/IRA lobby seem assured that these communties willing to go the IRA, they might be willing to provide some statistical evidence, or any evidence at all to support claims like above. Or

Might Mouse wrote:

There is inherent sectarian problems with the corrent policine structures in the north.

This one.

Some reasonable evidence would be nice

Villain

mycroft wrote:

Seeing as the Pro SF/IRA lobby seem assured that these communties willing to go the IRA, they might be willing to provide some statistical evidence, or any evidence at all to support claims like above. Or



This one.

Some reasonable evidence would be nice

Well IMO some nationalists go to the IRA rather the PSNI I can't say why but that is the case as I believe it. If you believe otherwise fair enough, but I think your very removed from the reality of the situation up north.

edit
have a read here

/edit

mycroft

irish1 wrote:

Well IMO some nationalists go to the IRA rather the PSNI I can't say why but that is the case as I believe it. If you believe otherwise fair enough, but I think your very removed from the reality of the situation up north.

[Lionel hutz]
I have conjecture and speculation, those are kinds of proof
[/lionel hutz]

I'll have to book mark this link next time you try and call me, on ,er, anything, I'll just say "well it's my opinion and if you disagree you are very far removed from the reality of the situation" and link to the above quote.

It's your opinion. And in my opinion the level of sustained violence aganist the community, and republican organised violence when the police do make a presence in the area, creates an atmosphere were people aren't given a choice. If you're given the option of balaclava'd baseball bat welding thugs dishing out a kind of justice, or going to the police and being labelled a tout, or much worse, they'll be a weary resignation to go to thugs.

Villain

mycroft wrote:

[Lionel hutz]
I have conjecture and speculation, those are kinds of proof
[/lionel hutz]

I'll have to book mark this link next time you try and call me, on ,er, anything, I'll just say "well it's my opinion and if you disagree you are very far removed from the reality of the situation" and link to the above quote.

It's your opinion. And in my opinion the level of sustained violence aganist the community, and republican organised violence when the police do make a presence in the area, creates an atmosphere were people aren't given a choice. If you're given the option of balaclava'd baseball bat welding thugs dishing out a kind of justice, or going to the police and being labelled a tout, or much worse, they'll be a weary resignation to go to thugs.

Did you read the link I posted??

Rock Climber

I find it ironic that the slugger O' Toole site is being cited by you as evidence this time Irish1.

Does that mean now that we are to discount republicans slagging of it as reliable in the past in threads here and that you will be taking it as gospel in the future?

Interesting.

Villain

Rock Climber wrote:

I find it ironic that the slugger O' Toole site is being cited by you as evidence this time Irish1.

Does that mean now that we are to discount republicans slagging of it as reliable in the past in threads here and that you will be taking it as gospel in the future?

Interesting.

I was more pointing him towards the comments on the page, just trying to give him an insight into what people in the north believe, it's certianly not gospel but worth a read.

swiss

Well IMO some nationalists go to the IRA rather the PSNI I can't say why but that is the case as I believe it. If you believe otherwise fair enough, but I think your very removed from the reality of the situation up north.

Removed from the situation in the north? I hope - for the sake of the North - that you are wrong.

My reading of the situation is as follows. It is obvious that even if a small minority of those criminal acts attributable to the IRA were actually carried out by the IRA, it still demonstrates a very deep and pervasive criminality within that organisation. In any civilised society crimes and criminals by association are reported to the relevant police forces. The fact that this is not the case here indicates that either people are intimidated by the prospect of reprisal by the IRA or that they distrust the PSNI for historical reasons. I believe it is a combination of these two factors.

It is clear that the predecessor of the PSNI, the RUC, did indeed have a sectarian element that engaged in collusion and other activities that mitigated against Northern Nationalists. Like any organisation mired in a history of abuse it will take time to regain peoples trust. As difficult as that trust is to rebuild, I believe that the organisational changes made to the PSNI have been encouraging, and that such trust can be fostered.

However, the ongoing activities of Sinn Féin and the IRA have effectively put the nail in the coffin of Nationalist co-operation with the PSNI. Why co-operate with a policing force in which you have a marginal level of trust when the local IRA hard man is threatening violent retaliation if you do? Especially when that hard man has just gutted two men in front of your very eyes in the midst of a busy bar.

This isn't a "chicken and egg" scenario. There isn't some sort of internal obstacle the PSNI have to overcome. If the PSNI is allowed to do it's job, trust can be rebuilt in that manner. However the IRA have put paid to that idea, and Sinn Féin have compounded this situation by failing to sit on the policing board or endorse the policing service. In this regard, the provisional movement has failed the community it deigns to represent in every manner that they can fail them.

Returning to the issue, I read this article in the Sunday Independent, and as inured as I have become to the disgusting activities of the IRA I was appalled at this killing. I was furthurmore appalled at the fact that this has only come to my attention a full three years after the murder of this highly talented young man. Why? Is it because it was inconvenient to mention the activities of the IRA while Sinn Féin were in a power sharing arrangement? Has the concept of devolved government in the North been allowed to blinker us all in relation to the vicious thuggery of the IRA?

I'm thoroughly sick of this. I'm sick of IRA thuggery, IRA criminality, IRA murder, IRA intimidation and Sinn Féin compliance. I'm sick of the breathtaking hypocrisy of a single organisation - Sinn Féin/IRA - that tacitly endorses this activity and in the same breath extolls itself as an organisation that looks out for human rights.

seedot

Can I suggest that people are missing one other reason for not going to the PSNI / other institutions which is the refusal to recognise the Northern state. This has been a part of republican ideology in one form or another for the last hundred years - the roots of the Sinn Fein name was Griffiths concept, borrowed from the Hungarians, of setting up alternative institutions.

I'm not saying this is valid, especially since the more or less complete acceptance by mainstream republicanism of both the Southern (1986) and Northern(1998) states - but it may be used on the ground.

Another minor factor may be the speed of non-state forms of justice (CPAD in Dublin being an example) which is not bound up by rights, rules of evidence etc. etc.

mycroft

irish1 wrote:

Did you read the link I posted??

For starts it's listen not read.

With respect Irish1 your orginal post is at 11:28.

Your edit to include the link is at 11:35

Now the next question is;

how did you manage to listen to

(temporary sound file, about 1/2 hour in). Is

in seven minutes?

So, I'll ask you, did you listen to the link before you posted it?

As for the comments on the message board, if you posted a link to a comment by squalatto or I to a comment by Sand, to coberate a POV; there would be hoots of derision. A comment on a message board does not stand up as a credible source.

A sound I would make were it not for the presence of people around me.

Villain

mycroft wrote:

For starts it's listen not read.

With respect Irish1 your orginal post is at 11:28.

Your edit to include the link is at 11:35

Now the next question is;

how did you manage to listen to



in seven minutes?

So, I'll ask you, did you listen to the link before you posted it?

As for the comments on the message board, if you posted a link to a comment by squalatto or I to a comment by Sand, to coberate a POV; there would be hoots of derision. A comment on a message board does not stand up as a credible source.

A sound I would make were it not for the presence of people around me.

I didn't listen to the sound file, couldn't get it to work it actually crashed ie on me. I was referring to the comments posted up. You can keep your head in the sand if you like but I think most people accept that for a lot of reasons people don't go to the PSNI in nationalist areas and some of those people go to the IRA.

mycroft

And if the best thing you can find to back up this assertion

irish1 wrote:

but I think most people accept that for a lot of reasons people don't go to the PSNI in nationalist areas and some of those people go to the IRA.

is a couple of comments on slugger o toole, I think that acceptance in "most people" is in trouble. We've presented a growing body of evidence of a campign of thuggery, intimidation, violence and murder of anyone who stands up to IRA intimidation. You've got a couple of comments on a message board. Maybe one day you'll get some facts to back up that assertion.

Mighty_Mouse

Of course, when will it be "fair, equal and just" enough for some people

What!! No specifically just fair and equal enough for independant qualified judges.

The majority of republicans in the north "prefer" to go to the IRA than the PSNI. Why? Because the PSNI is not an option. Funninly enough nationalists in the north fear the PSNI/RUC more than the IRA.

Are the deluded? Is there absolutely no foundation for this? Maybe they are just irrational? Lets get the marketing posters out to change this "perception"!!!!!!!

mycroft

Mighty_Mouse wrote:

The majority of republicans in the north "prefer" to go to the IRA than the PSNI. Why? Because the PSNI is not an option. Funninly enough nationalists in the north fear the PSNI/RUC more than the IRA.
!

Again, anyway you'd care to prove that statement?

Villain

mycroft wrote:

And if the best thing you can find to back up this assertion



is a couple of comments on slugger o toole, I think that acceptance in "most people" is in trouble. We've presented a growing body of evidence of a campign of thuggery, intimidation, violence and murder of anyone who stands up to IRA intimidation. You've got a couple of comments on a message board. Maybe one day you'll get some facts to back up that assertion.

MyCroft maybe one day you will wake up and realise what really happens in the North.

Mighty_Mouse

Seeing as the Pro SF/IRA lobby seem assured that these communties willing to go the IRA, they might be willing to provide some statistical evidence, or any evidence at all to support claims like above

I take it you didnt get the IRA-published statistics book last year.

""There is inherent sectarian problems with the corrent policine structures in the north""
This one. Some reasonable evidence would be nice.

2 words. Special Branch

Lemming

Mighty_Mouse wrote:

What!! No specifically just fair and equal enough for independant qualified judges.

At least there are judges available ... unlike the kangaroo court bridage eh? :rolleyes:

The majority of republicans in the north "prefer" to go to the IRA than the PSNI. Why? Because the PSNI is not an option. Funninly enough nationalists in the north fear the PSNI/RUC more than the IRA.

I note the use of the word "republicans" and not "nationalists" in your statemebnt about preferring to go to the IRA first. Interesting ....

I would say that most nationalists (in such a predicament) fear SF/IRA above all else. Go to the police get branded a tout, and then its open season on you by the very people who claim to be protecting you. Don't go to the police and ... well .... you get the idea.

The options are staggeringly abundant :rolleyes: