SF/IRAs record against drug dealers

Lemming

irish1 wrote:

MyCroft maybe one day you will wake up and realise what really happens in the North.

Mirror. Look in.

I've just had a reported post relating to this thread,so I would ask people not to make this personal,even if it is behind a very thin curtain.
That applies to both the reporter and the reportee,I'll let ye guess who ye are.

Sauce for the Goose may also be sauce for the Gander but rules apply to every poster here not just one side of a discussion.

Villain

Lemming wrote:

Mirror. Look in.

Do you actually want to discuss the issue?. I'm sure I don't know everything that happens up north but I have a fair idea, I know the IRA are involved in criminality and carry out punishment beatings and I'm sure a few of them may be Sinn Fein members, but I'd also sure that many nationalists seek justice from people other than the PSNI. I unlike some on this thread don't have my head buried in the sand.

Lemming

irish1 wrote:

Do you actually want to discuss the issue?. I'm sure I don't know everything that happens up north but I have a fair idea, I know the IRA are involved in criminality and carry out punishment beatings and I'm sure a few of them may be Sinn Fein members, but I'd also sure that many nationalists seek justice from people other than the PSNI. I unlike some on this thread don't have my head buried in the sand.

/me points to some of his previous posts on this particular thread.

And what, in those above mentioned posts is "head buried in the sand" syndrome with regards to the state of play between SF/IRA (including "republican"), nationalists, non-aligned catholics, and the PSNI?

Villain

Lemming wrote:

/me points to some of his previous posts on this particular thread.

And what, in those above mentioned posts is "head buried in the sand" syndrome with regards to the state of play between SF/IRA (including "republican"), nationalists, non-aligned catholics, and the PSNI?

IMO anyone that thinks the only reason nationalists don't go to the PSNI is because of fear have their head buried in the sand, there are many other reasons also which I have already discussed.

So why do you think I have my head buried in the sand??

Sponge Bob

Leave Irish1 alone Lemming , he is not a muppet like some of the SF supporting yappers in this forum

Policing is a deeply sensitive subject in the North but SF, having signed up to the GFA, knew that a new policing system would have to come of it. In fairness to them (as they paid for them) the British had started to emasculate and disarm the militias such as the RUC Reserve and the UDR long before the GFA was signed .

The GFA is now 7 years old and SF simply look like very slow learners to me and that is the real sit-YEE-ayshun in a nutshell .

Lemming

irish1 wrote:

IMO anyone that thinks the only reason nationalists don't go to the PSNI is because of fear have their head buried in the sand, there are many other reasons also which I have already discussed.

Ah ah ah .... I never said "the only" reason. I'd say it's a very very large reason, but, like with so much else in the north, to put it all down to that alone would be to give a very distorted and overly simplified account of the matter.

The overriding reason in the eyes of the nationalist community as to why they do not go to the PSNI would appear to be out of fear of being given the stigmatic lable of 'tout' and everything (all unpleasant and orchestrated from either SF/IRA or by the surrounding community out of fear of also falling out with the local heavies) that goes with it. This much isn't rocket-science to conclude since it's exactly the same behaviour repeated (albeit on a far larger and more vicious scale) in deprived areas in cities/regions around the world.

That's one aspect of "why". Then comes the angle of SF/IRA's reasoning.

The reasons as for SF/IRA discouraging people from going to the PSNI are many, although chief would be the fact that they will not recognise the body, because to do so would be to endorse and legitimise (oh the irony) what they see as a foreign body.

On top of that, add the usual indoctrination of "they're all loyalists and they're out to get us because they arrested joe-bloggs around the corner for dealing (never mind he fact that he was dealing) and it's all an injustice because he's a nationalist" etc etc routine, and attempts to hinder investigations into SF/IRA criminal activity - which would lead to members getting nailed - by silencing people.

Now, do I think that the former RUC have skeletons in the closet. Absolutely. But no more so than most police forces around the world. The Gardai have questions to answer about several incidents including deaths of people at the hands of paramilitaries inside the borders of the Republic.

So why do you think I have my head buried in the sand??

Buried in the sand? No. Do I think you are ignoring a rather fundamental reason why the nationalist community in the north wont/can't go to the PSNI? Yes.

Mighty_Mouse

I note the use of the word "republicans" and not "nationalists" in your statement about preferring to go to the IRA first. Interesting ....

Does it make a difference? Are we now arguing that nationalist feel differently towards the the PSNI than republicans!!

Does anyone have a link to the figures available. I think there usually religion based.Anyways, the fact remains that there is a significant section of northern society seriously disenchanted with the police force.

For gods sake we have to at least recognise the failings before we can fix them!!<<http://sinnfein.ie/pdf/PattenReport.pdf>>.

Failure to investigate murders like Pat Finnuicane, continued existance of the Special Branch, non-existant recruitement of southern police members all doesnt help, regular political statements by current and previous chiefs of police, refusing to implement parades commission rulings, wholly unionist/protestant force, fast-track, "lateral entry" being refused by the brits etc all doesnt help.

But eventually through the continued existance of the spotlight being firmly on policing due to SF's refusal to join, we are seeing changes. All republicans are asking is, how will things change if they agree to participate. These answers are not being given.

Do people really belive that catholics/nationalists/republicans are not supporting the police due to fear of the IRA or through a lack of faith in its impartiality? For gods sake we have to at least recognise the failings before we can fix them!!

Mighty_Mouse

Absolutely. But no more so than most police forces around the world

you completely demented. Who you comparing them with, the KJB!!

On top of that, add the usual indoctrination of "they're all loyalists and they're out to get us because they arrested joe-bloggs around the corner for dealing (never mind he fact that he was dealing) and it's all an injustice because he's a nationalist" etc

The composition of the police force is predominantly unionist. Remember the whole RUC en-bloc moving to the PSNI! New beginnings for the catholics and all that!

Are you from the north? Have you ever spoken to anyone up there? In particular a catholic. Maybe one in south-armagh?In what reality are your little stories about Joe Bloggs based!! If that was the height of the problems with policing, im sure there is no need to worry about the future of the north.

Villain

Lemming wrote:

Ah ah ah .... I never said "the only" reason. I'd say it's a very very large reason, but, like with so much else in the north, to put it all down to that alone would be to give a very distorted and overly simplified account of the matter.

The overriding reason in the eyes of the nationalist community as to why they do not go to the PSNI would appear to be out of fear of being given the stigmatic lable of 'tout' and everything (all unpleasant and orchestrated from either SF/IRA or by the surrounding community out of fear of also falling out with the local heavies) that goes with it. This much isn't rocket-science to conclude since it's exactly the same behaviour repeated (albeit on a far larger and more vicious scale) in deprived areas in cities/regions around the world.

That's one aspect of "why". Then comes the angle of SF/IRA's reasoning.

The reasons as for SF/IRA discouraging people from going to the PSNI are many, although chief would be the fact that they will not recognise the body, because to do so would be to endorse and legitimise (oh the irony) what they see as a foreign body.

On top of that, add the usual indoctrination of "they're all loyalists and they're out to get us because they arrested joe-bloggs around the corner for dealing (never mind he fact that he was dealing) and it's all an injustice because he's a nationalist" etc etc routine, and attempts to hinder investigations into SF/IRA criminal activity - which would lead to members getting nailed - by silencing people.

Now, do I think that the former RUC have skeletons in the closet. Absolutely. But no more so than most police forces around the world. The Gardai have questions to answer about several incidents including deaths of people at the hands of paramilitaries inside the borders of the Republic.

Other people in this thread seemed to think it was impossible that nationalists would go to the IRA rather than th PSNI, I said there was many reasons have a read back. I was talking about others that have their head in the sand and think the only reason people don't go to the PSNI is beacuse of fear. BTW I also stated that I believed fear was one of the reasons.

I think comparing the PSNI's problems to the Gardai's problems is just a tad harsh on the Gardai. I'm sure in time when the paton report is implemented fully and 40-50% of the PSNI are nationalists that a lot more people will go to the PSNI.

Lemming wrote:

Buried in the sand? No. Do I think you are ignoring a rather fundamental reason why the nationalist community in the north wont/can't go to the PSNI? Yes.

Have a read back over my posts

bonkey

irish1 wrote:

I'm sure in time when the paton report is implemented fully and 40-50% of the PSNI are nationalists that a lot more people will go to the PSNI.

And how do you figure the PSNI will ever become 40% - 50% Nationalist before the nationalists will trust it and go to it?

jc

uberwolf

Mighty_Mouse wrote:

you completely demented.

you're treading a thin line.

A Dub in Glasgo

Lemming wrote:

The overriding reason in the eyes of the nationalist community as to why they do not go to the PSNI would appear to be out of fear of being given the stigmatic lable of 'tout' and everything

The overriding reason? Not in my experience. I would say the overriding reason is because the people do not trust the police. Years of brutality tend to do that to people.

Now, do I think that the former RUC have skeletons in the closet. Absolutely. But no more so than most police forces around the world. The Gardai have questions to answer about several incidents including deaths of people at the hands of paramilitaries inside the borders of the Republic.

I am so so glad the Gardai do not have any where near the amount of skeletons in their closet as the RUC. If they had, there may well have been violence in the Republic as well as NI.

Villain

bonkey wrote:

And how do you figure the PSNI will ever become 40% - 50% Nationalist before the nationalists will trust it and go to it?

jc

Well bonkey, I think that if the paton report is implemented and a peace deal is brokered Sinn Fein will join the policing board, then I believe more Nationalists will join, it will take time though a long time.

Lemming

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

The overriding reason? Not in my experience. I would say the overriding reason is because the people do not trust the police. Years of brutality tend to do that to people.

As I've said, it's not rocket-science to point out the behavioural pattern of avoiding stigmatisation. It happense every day elsewhere. The last great mass support of an organisation that was fundamentally obscene by the masses in order to avoid their attentions was Germany circa 1930-45. I'm not likening SF/IRA to the Nazis - that's just absurd - but I am pointing out the compliance of the masses through fear of being labled as a tout or a traitor and indoctrination.

Yes there was brutality from the RUC, but you are also negating where a great deal of that brutality might have come from or more importantly, what was feeding it. And I think the republican community might have to shoulder some of that blame themselves. If you'll pardon the analogy, if you prod a lion with a stick,what the f*ck do you think he's going to do to you?

I am so so glad the Gardai do not have any where near the amount of skeletons in their closet as the RUC. If they had, there may well have been violence in the Republic as well as NI.

TBH, the Gardai have a serious accountability problem and have done for a long time. They also, as I've said, have serious questions to answer for in relation to activities carried out, including the murder of people inside the state, by terrorist organisations that they simply turned a blind eye to.

bonkey

irish1 wrote:

Well bonkey, I think that if the paton report is implemented and a peace deal is brokered Sinn Fein will join the policing board, then I believe more Nationalists will join, it will take time though a long time.

Sorry, but I'm still not clear.

Are you now changing position on what you said in the post that I queried? Because this doesn't gel with the "people will trust it after 40% - 50% of it is nationalist in origin" statement you made earlier.

I know I'm being picky here, but surely you can see my problem? You're arguing to others that they don't understand the situation, and that its not all that simple....and yet when questioned on one of your beliefs, you appear to be shifting rather than clarifying your position.

Now, I think I understand what you're actually saying, which is that it will be a gradual process of increasing trust which will come hand-in-hand with increasing numbers of nationalists joining the PSNI. But I see no reason to justify the stonewalling of this process pending the complete implementation of the Patten report. If trust is going to be built gradually, then surely that can already be started, and the Patten recommendations implemented gradually at the same time as all of the other things.

Which then leads us back around to the good old chestnut of why it is ok to insist that one side must do X before the other side will begin to even consider changing their position, but also insist that said position will take a long, long time to change, and it will be gradual.

It just reads like another "You must do it all, and then we'll gradually and slowly start doing our bit" excuse to me. Now, I've maintained for a long time that this is an attitude held by too many on both sides, so I'm not having a go at SF any more than anyone else. This attitude, to my mind, underlies the entire process on both sides. Its almost as if having agreed to negotiate with each other, all the various factions have promptly erased all knowledge of what negotiation actually entails from within their ranks.

Or maybe its just me.

jc

mycroft

Mighty_Mouse wrote:

you completely demented. Who you comparing them with, the KJB!!

I think you'll find a previous link in this thread praising the current PSNI with one of the best human rights record in Europe. Past. Present. One side in this debate has trouble distinguishing tenses

The composition of the police force is predominantly unionist. Remember the whole RUC en-bloc moving to the PSNI! New beginnings for the catholics and all that!

And with IRA intimidation of people going to the PSNI, what hope is there of getting wholesale catholic support when theres their own thugs sneering down a barrel at the organisation. Many catholics who joined the RUC were killed by their own communties. Until the IRA community policing units stop intimidating communities, there won't be a real chance for catholic communties joining the PSNI. Quit oversimpliflying the issue.

Are you from the north? Have you ever spoken to anyone up there? In particular a catholic. Maybe one in south-armagh?In what reality are your little stories about Joe Bloggs based!! If that was the height of the problems with policing, im sure there is no need to worry about the future of the north.

Ah ancedotal evidence, the best kind. Esp the unsourced unproven kind.

Well I'm convinced.

Villain

Good post Bonkey, sorry if it appeared as if I was changing my position, you were right when you said

I think I understand what you're actually saying, which is that it will be a gradual process of increasing trust which will come hand-in-hand with increasing numbers of nationalists joining the PSNI.

.

That is what I meant, it will take time though.

jbkenn

irish1 wrote:

Well bonkey, I think that if the paton report is implemented and a peace deal is brokered Sinn Fein will join the policing board, then I believe more Nationalists will join, it will take time though a long time.

Not being negative here, but what elements of the Patton report, that have not been implemented, need to be implemented, for Sinn Fein to support a police service?

jbkenn

Johnny_the_fox

jbkenn wrote:

Not being negative here, but what elements of the Patton report, that have not been implemented, need to be implemented, for Sinn Fein to support a police service?

jbkenn

according to Sinn Fein the following have not be implemented (april 2004) :


> Special Branch
> Demilitarisation of policing
> Disbandment of the Full Time Reserve
> Human Rights training and culture
> Plastic Bullets

mycroft

irish1 wrote:

Good post Bonkey, sorry if it appeared as if I was changing my position, you were right when you said .

That is what I meant, it will take time though.

And with the community policing by the IRA, the threats, the intimidate, the abuse, and torture, how can the paton report be implimented fully.

Esp when the IRA are imtimidating people speaking to the PSNI, never mind joining the IRA.

Would you agree that the disbanding of IRA community policing units, and the pressure on splinter republican movements to disband by the IRA would be a bold and necessary step to encourage everyone to agree to the Paton plan?

I'm be curious if you could agree yes or no to the above with the caveat of "yes, but...."

Progress is a two way street.

mycroft

Johnny_the_fox wrote:

according to Sinn Fein the following have not be implemented (april 2004) :


> Special Branch

Thats a southern police unit. Whats yout point? Oh and seeing the Mc Carthy and alledged Nth bank robbery are both reportadly IRA responsibility the existance of the Branch isn't a irrelvancy right now.

> Demilitarisation of policing

"Lads we need to pick up two senior republicans who may have been involved in the murder of Mc Carthy"

'Grand so sarge, should we wander over to the short strand"

"Ah so lads, d'yknow it's a nice day take jimmy n steve and the convertable"

'Jaysus Sarge' d'know we may as well and walk, it's such a grand day"

Theres a hyprocracy in this condition. Last ira man done for arms smugling was 99 in florida. You can't expect the police to walk into the some of the most violent neighbourhoods without the arms and armour they need is asking men to commit sucide. So maybe if the IRA disbanded and agreed to support the PSNI this could have a chance.

> Disbandment of the Full Time Reserve

Agreed. But theres intimidation of catholics joining the PSNI that makes this difficult

> Human Rights training and culture

As mentioned by Sand the PSNI are winning human rights awards, and have the model of a independent investigation body in the ombudsman.

> Plastic Bullets

I'd agree with that were it not for the organised rioting period (sorry marching season) , blast, nail and acid bombs, and most importantly the use of organised riots by both sides (repubilcan and Unionists), theres so many events that have been arranged by senior terrorists/leaders in both communties. Theres been organised rioting most recently by republican leaders in the short strand over pick ups during the Mc Carthy murder investigation. When both sides are arranging riots, when police can't arrive in certain neighbours with arranged riots, lets talk about this one.

A Dub in Glasgo

At least get the surname right

mycroft

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

At least get the surname right

Uh huh?

Stabshauptmann

mycroft wrote:

I think you'll find a previous link in this thread praising the current PSNI with one of the best human rights record in Europe. Past. Present. One side in this debate has trouble distinguishing tenses.

Hold on a min. Lemming said that the RUC had no more skeletons than most. It was only a matter of time before someone pointed this out as being totally wrong. The RUC was a terrible police force, riddled with abuse and sectarianism. You cant then go and say stop living in the past or whats worse, Bringing up the past is all YOUR SIDE do.

Stabshauptmann

mycroft wrote:

> Plastic Bullets

I'd agree with that were it not for the organised rioting period (sorry marching season) , blast, nail and acid bombs, and most importantly the use of organised riots by both sides (repubilcan and Unionists), theres so many events that have been arranged by senior terrorists/leaders in both communties. Theres been organised rioting most recently by republican leaders in the short strand over pick ups during the Mc Carthy murder investigation. When both sides are arranging riots, when police can't arrive in certain neighbours with arranged riots, lets talk about this one.

You detest IRA "community policing" right mycroft?
Is it A) That punishment doesnt equal the crime, torturing 14 year olds isnt really fair if all they've done is joy ride
or That you dont feel they have any right to administer juctice.

If its the latter then I think juctice is a universal thing, nobody owns it or has a monopoly on it and if the police dont administer it someone else should.

If it is "A" then you and I are in the same boat. A barbaric over reaction, a cannon and moth scenaroi if you will. How so could you codone the use of plastic bullets. They cause horrible pain and injury and can KILL. Other police forces can disperse riots without plastic bullets why not the PSNI?

I suggest you examine your subconscious feelings; do you believe that only bad men are hit by plastic bullets? Those people deserve it perhaps?

A Dub in Glasgo

If Plastic Bullets were used outside of Ireland the way they have been used thus far in Ireland, mycroft would be demanding action from the international community to get them banned and starting threads here with examples of the repressive nature of the regimes that use them.

A Dub in Glasgo

mycroft wrote:

Uh huh?

McCartney

Lemming

Kaptain Redeye wrote:

Hold on a min. Lemming said that the RUC had no more skeletons than most. It was only a matter of time before someone pointed this out as being totally wrong. The RUC was a terrible police force, riddled with abuse and sectarianism. You cant then go and say stop living in the past or whats worse, Bringing up the past is all YOUR SIDE do.

The irony in that statement is pretty amusing. Figure it out.

Kaptain Redeye wrote:

You detest IRA "community policing" right mycroft?
Is it A) That punishment doesnt equal the crime, torturing 14 year olds isnt really fair if all they've done is joy ride
or That you dont feel they have any right to administer juctice.

If its the latter then I think juctice is a universal thing, nobody owns it or has a monopoly on it and if the police dont administer it someone else should.

And I think you've just missed the boat completely on the concept of justice and accountability. The reason why the only legally entitled entity for the dispensing of justice are the courts is based on the use of cold hard fact in an impartial environment. Accountability & Transparency. A couple of local 'RA boys tanked up on booze does not = either accountability nor transparency and their "punishment" isn't exactly reversible either nor subject to appeal.

The police themselves are not entitled to dispense justice (self-defense not withstanding), so why the hell do you think that anyone else is permitted?

How so could you codone the use of plastic bullets. They cause horrible pain and injury and can KILL. Other police forces can disperse riots without plastic bullets why not the PSNI?

Plastic Bullets have been used elsewhere. The problem with N.Ireland was the readiness with which they were used and, if I might hazard a guess, at a lowering of overall standards of safety control in order to familiarise as many security personnel with them as possible in as short a time as possible. Much the same way that the US police force is now just tazzering people without much in the way of warning, and already killed quite a few people with weak hearts. I dislike the notion of plastic bullets, although some of the alternatives are equally as potentially deadly. In any case I would consider them very inappropriate for riot control.

A Dub in Glasgo

Lemming wrote:

Plastic Bullets have been used elsewhere. The problem with N.Ireland was the readiness with which they were used .

They have not been used in Britain though. It is good enough to hit a few Irish children in the face with them but don't use them in Britain as they are far too dangerous.