Are SF trying to shoot themselves in the foot.

monument

sceptre wrote:

Rather depends on how one defines "Republican movement". If one defines it specifically as "provisional sinn fein and the provisional IRA" then obviously he's not. Obviously that's a rather narrow definition and hence a bit mean and Ruairi O'Bradaigh and a pile of others might be a little offended. Obviously one crowd of splitters is different from another crowd of splitters but it's rather blinkered to refer to one specific faction as "the republican movement" and declare all others to be pissing outside the tent.

I might go as far to distinguish Morrison as an independent republican commentator these days but that doesn't put him outside "the movement". I don't know the guy, never met him, almost certainly never will but I'll bet he still considers himself to be part of "the movement", at least on a part-time (independent) basis. I've no reason to doubt his assertion that he's no longer a member of Sinn Fein. I don't really care all that much either if the truth be told - I'd much rather he made a success of his plays rather than doing what he was doing in the 70s.

Then I take it that the opening statement of this thread is untrue, or at least misleading? -

"Danny Morrison, senior SF commentary has writen this editorial for the Daily Ireland"

cdebru

sceptre wrote:

Rather depends on how one defines "Republican movement". If one defines it specifically as "provisional sinn fein and the provisional IRA" then obviously he's not. Obviously that's a rather narrow definition and hence a bit mean and Ruairi O'Bradaigh and a pile of others might be a little offended. Obviously one crowd of splitters is different from another crowd of splitters but it's rather blinkered to refer to one specific faction as "the republican movement" and declare all others to be pissing outside the tent.

I might go as far to distinguish Morrison as an independent republican commentator these days but that doesn't put him outside "the movement". I don't know the guy, never met him, almost certainly never will but I'll bet he still considers himself to be part of "the movement", at least on a part-time (independent) basis. I've no reason to doubt his assertion that he's no longer a member of Sinn Fein. I don't really care all that much either if the truth be told - I'd much rather he made a success of his plays rather than doing what he was doing in the 70s.

ok to clarify he is not a member of the provisional republican movement ie provisional sinn fein or the provisional IRA according to himself

and i doubt very much that he is a member of the RIRA CIRA INLA OIRA IPLO
IRSP RSF 32SC or indeed the workers party I think that about covers it

rather than bet you could ask him on his website wether he still considers himself to be part of the movement

monument

monument wrote:

Then I take it that the opening statement of this thread is untrue, or at least misleading? -

"Danny Morrison, senior SF commentary has writen this editorial for the Daily Ireland"

Well I dunno,I wouldnt say he's burned his bridges entirely with them by a long shot, he just had to leave as having someone so high in the party in prison for much of the 90's would be analagous to having stronger than inextricable links with something, that SF prefer to leave as just inextricable these days.
I'd class him as a close friend of the SF family and someone who's able to speak authoritively about them.
[analogy]It's probably like he plays a regular round of golf as a guest at the local 18 hole where Sinn Féin are the golf club in my opinion[/analogy]

cdebru

Earthman wrote:

Well I dunno,I wouldnt say he's burned his bridges entirely with them by a long shot, he just had to leave as having someone so high in the party in prison for much of the 90's would be analagous to having stronger than inextricable links with something, that SF prefer to leave as just inextricable these days.
I'd class him as a close friend of the SF family and someone who's able to speak authoritively about them.
[analogy]It's probably like he plays a regular round of golf as a guest at the local 18 hole where Sinn Féin are the golf club in my opinion[/analogy]

you cannnot be seriously suggesting that morrison left because he was convicted of IRA membership and spent time in prison

perhaps you should have a look at the cvs of some of their TDs and MLAs and councillors


I honestly think morrison left because he had devoted enough of his life to it and wanted the freedom to do other things like write plays etc and it gives him more freedom to comment like in this case he would not have been able to say this if he was a member of sinn fein even though he would have liked too being in any political party can be stifling on your ability to say what you want

I would imagine that sinn fein would love to have him back and i doubt there would be any embarrassment about his conviction

cdebru

cdebru wrote:

perhaps you should have a look at the cvs of some of their TDs and MLAs and councillors

Indeed-shur the dogs on the street know about some of their cv's
But I was talking about during the 90's when he was in prison.It wouldn't be good to have a senior party official in prison for an IRA offence concomittant with his service to the party.
I'd go with the golf analogy tbh.

cdebru

Sand wrote:

If it is relevant now, then it should have been relevant when Kennedy got Adams his Visa and White House invitation. It wasnt relevant then. Adams was delighted to be able to wine and dine with the US political elites. Whats changed since to make this relevant all of a sudden?

Oh yeah, those US political elites are treating Adams like something they accidentially stepped in. Suddenly Kennedys past history is relevant? Its just a sloppy, crude attack piece by the provos to cover up Adams blushes and fury at being made look like such a political leper. "You didnt dump me!!! I dumped you!!!!"

And it is simply laughable that provo apologists are disavowing Danny Morrison as being a member of the provo movement. Next theyll be disavowing P O Neill as having nothing to do with the provos.

it is relevant now because kennedy criticised people for not respecting the rule of law pointing out that he did not show a great respect for it himself is relevant

BTW a little secret P O Neill does not really exist

Sponge Bob

cdebru wrote:

being in any political party can be stifling on your ability to say what you want

Especially if saying something would actually help the investigation into the McCartney murder.

cdebru

Sponge Bob wrote:

Especially if saying something would actually help the investigation into the McCartney murder.

are you suggesting that sinn fein have stopped people from giving information in the mccartney case

I've moved all of the kennedy stuff to the recycle area.
Thread reopened .

On topic posts only.

cdebru

Earthman wrote:

I've moved all of the kennedy stuff to the recycle area.
Thread reopened .

On topic posts only.

I honestly don't understand that surely kennedys credibility to criticise is part of the topic of the thread

sceptre

cdebru wrote:

rather than bet you could ask him on his website wether he still considers himself to be part of the movement

I could but as I said, I don't really care as long as he sticks to using the pen rather than the sword. You could have asked the same before saying he wasn't. I guess you're as lazy as I am (not that there's anything wrong with that).

Cork

It was a sad attack on Edward Kennedy.

I think SF need to look at itself. This is a political party with links to the IRA whose members killed Robert McCartney.

I won't even mention the intimidation.

The IRA has to go away. It is no reason to exist. Its continued existance years after the Good Friday Agreement is a joke.

Both Governments should not have allowed this.

Cork

irish1 wrote:

MT, have you anything to go on here, or is it just your opinion that Danny Morrison is still involved with Sinn Fein??

If you have I'd be interested in seeing it.

HAS Danny Morrison denied membership of this organisation?

Is it not enough Adams denying that he was ever a member of the IRA?

Villain

Cork wrote:

HAS Danny Morrison denied membership of this organisation?

Is it not enough Adams denying that he was ever a member of the IRA?

Cork I refer you to post 25 http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=2544165&postcount=25

Cork

irish1 wrote:

Cork I refer you to post 25 http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=2544165&postcount=25

But did Morrison not coin the phrase "aramalite and the ballot box"?

Enough said.

Ted Kennedy has done much for this country.

Ted Kennedy is entitled to meet who ever he wants. Just as Bertie can.

cdebru

sceptre wrote:

I could but as I said, I don't really care as long as he sticks to using the pen rather than the sword. You could have asked the same before saying he wasn't. I guess you're as lazy as I am (not that there's anything wrong with that).

lazier perhaps

cdebru

Cork wrote:

But did Morrison not coin the phrase "aramalite and the ballot box"?

Enough said.

Ted Kennedy has done much for this country.

Ted Kennedy is entitled to meet who ever he wants. Just as Bertie can.

anyone can meet whoever they want the article just points out that the reason given by ted kennedy ie the lack of respect for the rule of law does not stand up given ted kennedys own lack of respect for the rule of law

the fact that he may or may not have done things for Ireland does not change the way he tried to impede justice on at least 2 separate ocassions


also the fact that morrison coined a phrase 20 odd years ago does not mean he is presently a member of the IRA or Sinn Fein

Villain

Cork wrote:

But did Morrison not coin the phrase "aramalite and the ballot box"?

Enough said.

Ted Kennedy has done much for this country.

Ted Kennedy is entitled to meet who ever he wants. Just as Bertie can.

Come on Cork seriously, a phrase from decades ago is

enough said

As for Mr Kennedy no-one is above the law.

cdebru

cdebru wrote:

the fact that he may or may not have done things for Ireland does not change the way he tried to impede justice on at least 2 separate ocassions

You keep saying that.
The first occasion is the event from 35 years ago that morrisson writes about.
The second is the "rape" that you spoke about where Kennedy Smith was acquitted and ergo in law no rape took place at all.
Could you provide any evidence at all other than hear say and unproven accusations
I asked you before to provide a pattern to copper fasten this comparison that you are defending.
So do it or desist please,if its more hearsay that you present, it will go the way of the rest of the hearsay and the thread will continue on topic.

Cork

irish1 wrote:

Come on Cork seriously, a phrase from decades ago

Was not the "Armalite & Ballot box" not a stratergy adapted by SF/IRA?

sceptre

Cork wrote:

Was not the "Armalite & Ballot box" not a stratergy adapted by SF/IRA?

Two decades ago. As irish1 has already mentioned this doesn't mean that Morrison is currently a member of either group.

I don't see the point in your contribution other than going around in self-referential circles.

Sand

ok to clarify he is not a member of the provisional republican movement ie provisional sinn fein or the provisional IRA according to himself

and i doubt very much that he is a member of the RIRA CIRA INLA OIRA IPLO
IRSP RSF 32SC or indeed the workers party I think that about covers it

rather than bet you could ask him on his website wether he still considers himself to be part of the movement

I find it a tad suspicious given his supposed non involvement with SF/IRA that they are the only political party hes linked on his website. Every other political strand has to make do with a link to a website that provides links to the parties.

Id imagine thats because of his long history and deep ties with SF/IRA though. Would you agree cdebru?

Well I dunno,I wouldnt say he's burned his bridges entirely with them by a long shot, he just had to leave as having someone so high in the party in prison for much of the 90's would be analagous to having stronger than inextricable links with something, that SF prefer to leave as just inextricable these days.
I'd class him as a close friend of the SF family and someone who's able to speak authoritively about them.

Id say he's more a plausibly deniable mouth piece to fly the odd kite and launch the odd attack that might otherwise seem partisan. SF/IRA are not an open and legitimate party - theyre a crinimal organisation and whilst Morrison might have retired from the official side of things, I doubt SF/IRA are bereft of his services as and when they are required. SF/IRA arent so afraid of the SF/IRA links, lets face it the northern leadership are all either currently in the IRA, formerly convicted of IRA membership or from families with a strong IRA tradition - though the sort of work that Danny Morrison was involved in, torturing and murdering suspected informants, mightnt play too well with middle Ireland. Danny Morrisons actions and statements stink far, far too much to claim that hes suddenly clean. Though, lets face it these denials are from the same people who brought you such classics as " SF and the IRA are seperate organisations!!!" and other assorted hilarity.

it is relevant now because kennedy criticised people for not respecting the rule of law pointing out that he did not show a great respect for it himself is relevant

What did you say there that disagreed with my statement that Morrisons article was only a retaliation for Adams being treated like ****? What you said was " Kennedy criticised SF/IRA for having a terrorist army whilst in government, a vast crinimal empire and refusing to end intimidation in Catholic areas; all in the *present* - so Morrison attacked him for his murky *past* in revenge" This murky past wasnt worthy of comment beforehand even though it was common knowledge, whereas Kennedy might be forgiven for not being able to predict that SF/IRA would *still* engage in violent thuggery in the future. Kennedys past only became an issue when SF/IRA got burned. Its a crude attack piece, thats all.

BTW a little secret P O Neill does not really exist

Oh wow really?!?!? So the existence of a spokesman called P O Neill would merely be a convenient fiction for the provo movement? Much like their denials of SF/IRA being one and the same?

So whose drafting those SF/IRA statements then? I guess it would be utterly wild to suggest a seemingly un-aligned IRA man, convicted for his participation in a IRA informant torture squad, with experience of PR and politics, noted for his political writing and slavish adherence to SF/IRA could ever have anything to do with it?

A Dub in Glasgo

Actually Sand, I think you will find that SF is a perfectly legal and legitimate political party in the RoI and the UK. I may have missed the legislation in both juristictions outlining their banning so be a good sport and let me know if I am mistaken

Cork

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

Actually Sand, I think you will find that SF is a perfectly legal and legitimate political party in the RoI and the UK. I may have missed the legislation in both juristictions outlining their banning so be a good sport and let me know if I am mistaken

There is nothing legitimate about having links to the criminal IRA.

cdebru

Sand wrote:

I find it a tad suspicious given his supposed non involvement with SF/IRA that they are the only political party hes linked on his website. Every other political strand has to make do with a link to a website that provides links to the parties.

Id imagine thats because of his long history and deep ties with SF/IRA though. Would you agree cdebru??

he is a former member of both PSF and PIRA and judging from his comments on his website and articles he has written in various newspapers and from listening to him on the radio etc i get the impression he is still a supporter of PSF

Sand wrote:

Id say he's more a plausibly deniable mouth piece to fly the odd kite and launch the odd attack that might otherwise seem partisan. SF/IRA are not an open and legitimate party - theyre a crinimal organisation and whilst Morrison might have retired from the official side of things, I doubt SF/IRA are bereft of his services as and when they are required. SF/IRA arent so afraid of the SF/IRA links, lets face it the northern leadership are all either currently in the IRA, formerly convicted of IRA membership or from families with a strong IRA tradition - though the sort of work that Danny Morrison was involved in, torturing and murdering suspected informants, mightnt play too well with middle Ireland. Danny Morrisons actions and statements stink far, far too much to claim that hes suddenly clean. Though, lets face it these denials are from the same people who brought you such classics as " SF and the IRA are seperate organisations!!!" and other assorted hilarity.

SF are an open legal and legitimate political party you can pretend otherwise if it makes you feel better
do you have any evidence that anyone is in the IRA
danny morison was not convicted of torturing and murdering anyone
as hass been discussed to death SF and the IRA are completely separate organisations do you have any evidence to the contrary
If morrisons word is not good enough for you there is not much point in discussing it further you dont believe him i'am happpy to take his word unless you can provide proof that he is lying which i doubt you can

Sand wrote:

What did you say there that disagreed with my statement that Morrisons article was only a retaliation for Adams being treated like ****? What you said was " Kennedy criticised SF/IRA for having a terrorist army whilst in government, a vast crinimal empire and refusing to end intimidation in Catholic areas; all in the *present* - so Morrison attacked him for his murky *past* in revenge" This murky past wasnt worthy of comment beforehand even though it was common knowledge, whereas Kennedy might be forgiven for not being able to predict that SF/IRA would *still* engage in violent thuggery in the future. Kennedys past only became an issue when SF/IRA got burned. Its a crude attack piece, thats all.

i did not say anything of the sort dont attribute quotes to me that i did not make this seems to becoming common practise around here quote what i said not what you would like me to have said or what you think i said

it is raised in respect of kennedys own lack of respect for the law and yes it is an attack piece and no SF never mentioned it while they were getting along with kennedy and sinn fein have still not raised it morrison has
then the US never mentioned that Saddam was an evil murdering dictator while they were getting along with him those only became issues after they fell out

Sand wrote:

Oh wow really?!?!? So the existence of a spokesman called P O Neill would merely be a convenient fiction for the provo movement? Much like their denials of SF/IRA being one and the same??

why did you think he was a real person
so by one and the same do you mean every member of sinn fein is also a member of the IRA and every member of the IRA is also a member of Sinn Fein
if that is not what you mean can you clarify what you do mean

Sand wrote:

So whose drafting those SF/IRA statements then? I guess it would be utterly wild to suggest a seemingly un-aligned IRA man, convicted for his participation in a IRA informant torture squad, with experience of PR and politics, noted for his political writing and slavish adherence to SF/IRA could ever have anything to do with it?

the IRA army council draft their statements and the leadership of Sinn Fein draft SF statements

i have no idea who you are refering to you will have to be more specific name the person you are talking about

Rock Climber

Their core support is now down to 8% nationally but what is more worrying for them is peoples perceptions according to the poll of their position on the McCartney Murder.

Basically people don't believe them.Like i said before the IRA is to Blame here, their hard core fanatics keep bashing the publics perception of Sinn Féin and Sinn Féin continue to shrink.They certainly wont be growing if they dont get their finger out and deal with their friends in the IRA.


From the Indo:

SF/IRA is protecting the killers, say voters

JODY CORCORAN

A HUGE majority of voters think Sinn Fein/IRA is engaged in a conspiracy to cover up the murder of Robert McCartney and to protect his murderers, according to a Sunday Independent /Millward Brown IMS opinion poll.

Fewer than one in five voters (18 per cent) believe SF/IRA has done everything it can to assist in bringing the perpetrators to justice, while a massive 67 per cent say it has not. An even greater majority (72 per cent) do not believe SF members who were in Magennis's bar on the night Mr McCartney was murdered when they say they did not see the horrific act.

Alarmingly, nearly half of voters (42 per cent) think Mr McCartney's sisters and partner are in personal danger if they continue to stand up to SF/IRA; 48 per cent do not not believe so, while 10 per cent offered no opinion.

In another damning finding for SF/IRA, a majority polled (49 per cent) feel that witnesses of the murder should go to the Police Service of Northern Ireland (PSNI) rather than an intermediary such as a priest, solicitor or the Police Ombudsman.

A breakdown of that figure contains another significant finding - 42 per cent of SF supporters believe witnesses should go to the PSNI, and a separate 8 per cent believe witnesses should go to the PSNI and an intermediary.

While the poll finds that voters have almost completely lost trust in SF/IRA, a healthy majority (60 per cent) support the Taoiseach's view that, however reluctantly, he should meet with Sinn Fein even though the party has yet to offer proposals to end its links to criminality. Over a third (32 per cent) believe Mr Ahern should not meet with SF, while 8 per cent did not know or had no opinion.

The exposure of SF/IRA as a criminal organisation has also had an strong impact on the electorate's views on the make-up of a future Government. There has been a 12 per cent drop (to 37 per cent) in the number of voters who think SF should be included in coalition government.

A majority (51 per cent) now believe Sinn Fein should not be included compared to 39 per cent when the question was last asked in a similar poll in November 2004.

The preferred coalition option is the current FF/PD government (27 per cent), up 3 points since the question was last asked in November 2004. Indeed, FF and the PDs have increased their lead over the most likely alternative government, a Fine Gael, Labour and Green Rainbow coalition.

A year ago, the combined public support for the Rainbow parties (40 per cent) gave them a narrow lead over the FF/PD coalition (38 per cent). Now the FF/PD coalition (45 per cent) enjoy a 10-point lead over a Rainbow alternative (35 per cent). For the Government coalition, this is their biggest lead in the polls since the 2002 general election. For the Rainbow parties, it represents a further setback.

The Millward Brown/IMS poll for the Sunday Independent was conducted last Thursday at 100 sampling points throughout all Dail constituencies, with 1,108 people interviewed in their homes. The accuracy of the survey is estimated to be plus or minus 3 per cent. The results again illustrate how unreliable by-election results are as a barometer of wider national public opinion.

When the pollsters adjusted party support, they found Fianna Fail (41 per cent) down one point since last month; Fine Gael (19 per cent) also down one point; Labour 11 per cent, also down one point; the PDs (4 per cent) up one point; the Greens (5 per cent) unchanged; Sinn Fein (8 per cent), down one point and Independents/Others (12 per cent) up two points.

Satisfaction with the Government (47 per cent) is down four points since last month while dissatisfaction (48 per cent) is up four points.

Bertie Ahern's satisfaction rating (56 per cent) is down 5 points, while the Tanaiste, Mary Harney (48 per cent) has dropped four points.

Indeed most party leaders have experienced a decline. FG leader, Enda Kenny (43 per cent) is down 3 points and Labour leader, Pat Rabbitte (47 per cent) is down 5 points.

Greens leader, Travor Sargeant (39 per cent) is up 4 points, while Gerry Adams (34 per cent), although up 3 points, is well down on four months ago, when his satisfaction was at 51 per cent.

Sand

SF is a perfectly legal and legitimate political party in the RoI and the UK. I may have missed the legislation in both juristictions outlining their banning so be a good sport and let me know if I am mistaken

SF are an open legal and legitimate political party you can pretend otherwise if it makes you feel better

Theyre a crinimal/terrorist organisation. Sitting TDs, MPs, MEPS or NI Assembly members who have a terrorist army/crinimal mafia as part of their organisation are neither open nor legitimate, and as O Snodaigh has found its is not legal either.
Though Im aware SF/IRA fanboys pretend otherwise to make themselves feel better.

danny morison was not convicted of torturing and murdering anyone

He was an elected SF/IRA politician found by the police in a house where a man had been starved and beaten into making a taped confession of being an informant. Morrison was returning with the judgement of the IRA commanders as to what was to be done with the man, on the basis of the forced confession. The man was lucky the RUC arrived to rescue him, because another suspected informant "interrogated" in the same house before him had been murdered and dumped on the street. Like all SF/IRA scum, Morrison is nothing but a thug wrapping himself in a flag.

it is raised in respect of kennedys own lack of respect for the law and yes it is an attack piece and no SF never mentioned it while they were getting along with kennedy and sinn fein have still not raised it morrison has

You mean the Danny Morrison, convicted SF/IRA thug, elected SF/IRA politician, SF/IRA PR director - a man so callous he can participate in the torture of a man on the behalf of an organisation that he can completely divest himself from only a few years later?

You really think Danny Morrison is that devoid of human empathy? Or it it more likely that Morrison was a SF/IRA fanatic, and still is?

A Dub in Glasgo

Sand wrote:

Theyre a crinimal/terrorist organisation. Sitting TDs, MPs, MEPS or NI Assembly members who have a terrorist army/crinimal mafia as part of their organisation are neither open nor legitimate, and as O Snodaigh has found its is not legal either.
Though Im aware SF/IRA fanboys pretend otherwise to make themselves feel better.

Actually Sand, I was specifically looking for a link to the UK or RoI legislation that shows that SF are not a legal and legitimate political party. Be a good chap and post the link as I can't seem to find it on the internet. I could be mistaken though

Villain

Rock Climber that poll was only taken from 1,108 people!!

I wouldn't rely on it too much.

But even at 8% Sinn Fein are still in a very strong position given all the negative press they have received.

cdebru

down 1 percentage point that is still well within the margin of error
given the attacks and bad publicity oof the last few months to be holding around 8 percent is not bad

also when did 49% become a majority

why do they list the party support in that way
FF FG LAB PD GREEN SF IND
why not in order of support