Are SF trying to shoot themselves in the foot.

Rock Climber

cdebru wrote:

No wrong
Lynch was a member of the IRA
the IRA discovered he was an informer

Is that what they say eh? They'd never lie :rolleyes:

it would not be unusual and had been done plenty of times especially when the IRA offered an amnesty to informers at one stage

Yeah Right! who in their right mind would tell the IRA that they were informing on them?? Amnesty my árse-admitting such a thing would get you shot.

Morrison claims that he was informed that an informer wanted to come clean and that he was to arrange a press conference
that the person was at a given address
morrison claims he did not know the circumstances for all he knew the person had come forward of his own free will ( it happened)

LoL now you are stretching it,no one in their right mind would do that,the IRA aka Morrison at the time might say anything, but how could you believe him, he was the IRA after all.

the facts are that you claimed morrison had been involved in the torture and beating of lynch
that is not true

The IRA's word again or morrison's? may as well be saying both as they are as good as.

as to wether morrison was going to the house on behalf of the IRA of which he was a member or on behalf of SF we dont know
you obviously dont believe morrisons account of why he was going that is your right but the fact is you were wrong in the original accusations against morrison

Again is this the IRA's word or Morissons or both, they're as good as each other, if you believe them, well thats up to you I'd prefer a proper determination, like a court of law.
Other than that I go on my opinion, and I'd say Morrison is as steeped in the IRA and Sinn Féin as ever he was.

as i have said before some IRA members are also in SF some SF members are also in the IRA

In your opinion,I'd go further and say that it's obvious to the dogs in the streets that senior members of the Republican movement share top positions in the two sides of the same coin.
IE I dont blame most people for thinking the IRA and Sinn fein are the same because the weight of coincidence is too much to have any other view.

the two organisations have a commom objective ( a united Ireland )

and a common Grá for all the murder and bombing of the 30 years of terror.

none of that means the two are the same even if some of the leadership of the IRA is also some of the leadership of SF

Yup thats as valid as saying two 5 cent coins are not the same thing as one ten cent coin, but they amount to the same thing.
Lets face it,people think they are the same and people aren't stupid.
Of course Republicans are laughably trying it on by saying they aren't but people see through that for what it is...

cdebru

Rock Climber wrote:

Is that what they say eh? They'd never lie :rolleyes:
perhaps you would read the whole thread...

lynch admitted to be being a paid informer at the trial

Rock Climber wrote:

Yeah Right! who in their right mind would tell the IRA that they were informing on them?? Amnesty my árse-admitting such a thing would get you shot....

the IRA had various amnesties for informers

Rock Climber wrote:

LoL now you are stretching it,no one in their right mind would do that,the IRA aka Morrison at the time might say anything, but how could you believe him, he was the IRA after all....

it is a fact that sinn fein had numerous press conferences in the 80s and 90s of people who had been approached to be informers or who had been informers

Rock Climber wrote:

The IRA's word again or morrison's? may as well be saying both as they are as good as.
Again is this the IRA's word or Morissons or both, they're as good as each other, if you believe them, well thats up to you I'd prefer a proper determination, like a court of law....

and you can have it lynch did not claim to have been tortured at the trial nor did he make any mention of morrison as he never saw him the house he was being held in was raided just seconds after morrison entered the house

Rock Climber wrote:

Other than that I go on my opinion, and I'd say Morrison is as steeped in the IRA and Sinn Féin as ever he was.

In your opinion,I'd go further and say that it's obvious to the dogs in the streets that senior members of the Republican movement share top positions in the two sides of the same coin.
IE I dont blame most people for thinking the IRA and Sinn fein are the same because the weight of coincidence is too much to have any other view.

and a common Grá for all the murder and bombing of the 30 years of terror.


Yup thats as valid as saying two 5 cent coins are not the same thing as one ten cent coin, but they amount to the same thing.
Lets face it,people think they are the same and people aren't stupid.
Of course Republicans are laughably trying it on by saying they aren't but people see through that for what it is...

of course you cant provide any evidence for any of that it is just your opinion

and could you in the future read the thread before jumping in all of your points have already be raised and discussed

Villain

Rock Climber wrote:

Lets face it,people think they are the same and people aren't stupid.
Of course Republicans are laughably trying it on by saying they aren't but people see through that for what it is...

Who are these people you speak of, pitty my poll didn't last and we might have seen what people on boards thought.

Rock Climber

irish1 wrote:

Who are these people you speak of, pitty my poll didn't last and we might have seen what people on boards thought.

You still think people in general outside of republicanism don't enmasse think Sinn Féin and the IRA aren't as intertwined as the ice in ice cream... thats ok
The Nile is a river in Egypt.
Lets see off the top of my head Enda Kenny maybe? leader of a party with maybe 6 times the Dáil seats of Sinn Féin,and 4 times as many of the Republics MEP's and well maybe 10 times as many of the Republics councillors.

cdebru wrote:

lynch admitted to be being a paid informer at the trial

but not to the IRA,that would have been instant death going on their record.

the IRA had various amnesties for informers

"come into my parlour said the spider to the fly, for it's the nicest little parlour you ever did spy"
As I say,amnesty my árse

it is a fact that sinn fein had numerous press conferences in the 80s and 90s of people who had been approached to be informers or who had been informers

Whatever about the pretense that they have now (in my view and that of lots of others) of being separate organisations,you hardly expect me to accept press conferences from the 1980's at a time when SF were totally shameless and up front about their IRA.

of course you cant provide any evidence for any of that it is just your opinion

Thats what I said didn't I...

and could you in the future read the thread before jumping in all of your points have already be raised and discussed

When you become a mod here,I'll take your instruction if I want to post here but at no other time will I be told how to form an opinion by your goodself

Villain

Enda Kenny ummm thats one person, still doesn't prove it though does it?

Bertie said they are 2 sides of the one coin, he didn't say they are the same, he also said he didn't know if Gerry Adams was on the IRA Army council and guess what his party has even more seats than Enda's!

Rock Climber

irish1 wrote:

Enda Kenny ummm thats one person, still doesn't prove it though does it?

We're talking about what people think here...

Bertie said they are 2 sides of the one coin, he didn't say they are the same, he also said he didn't know if Gerry Adams was on the IRA Army council and guess what his party has even more seats than Enda's!

Would that be the same Bertie Ahern who said what kind of eejits do people take us for? ?

cdebru

Rock Climber wrote:

but not to the IRA,that would have been instant death going on their record.

of course he admitted it to the IRA have you read the thread

perhaps they would have killed him but a third party intervened

my simple point is that since Lynch did not allege morrison had tortured or beat him or indeed give any evidence against morrison then sand is wrong in alleging morrison did unless your suggesting that Sand knows more about the abduction of lynch than lynch himself

Rock Climber wrote:

When you become a mod here,I'll take your instruction if I want to post here but at no other time will I be told how to form an opinion by your goodself

it was not an instruction it was a request if you had bothered to read the thread all of the stuff you posted had already been discussed

Rock Climber

cdebru wrote:

of course he admitted it to the IRA have you read the thread

Here we go again am I supposed to take the IRA's word for that?

perhaps they would have killed him but a third party intervened

Theres no perhaps about it, it would be their form to do so.
From earlier in the thread quoted from you

he had agreed to attend a press conference to admit his informing and that he had tried to set up senior sinn fein people for assination morrison as director of publicity was called to the house to arrange the press conference

You see I won't take the word of the IRA at all

it was not an instruction it was a request if you had bothered to read the thread all of the stuff you posted had already been discussed

My opinion stands up for itself and is indicative of the views of many.Thats the difference between you and me here, you seem to take what the IRA say at face value,I don't.
Suggesting that I should go and read the thread is tandamount to suggesting that either I haven't read it or I should accept verbatim any IRA version of events you may quote or discuss.
I hope it's not too disappointing but I did read the thread, and I refuse to do the latter thanks

cdebru

Rock Climber wrote:

Here we go again am I supposed to take the IRA's word for that?

Theres no perhaps about it, it would be their form to do so.
From earlier in the thread quoted from you
You see I won't take the word of the IRA at all


My opinion stands up for itself and is indicative of the views of many.Thats the difference between you and me here, you seem to take what the IRA say at face value,I don't.
Suggesting that I should go and read the thread is tandamount to suggesting that either I haven't read it or I should accept verbatim any IRA version of events you may quote or discuss.
I hope it's not too disappointing but I did read the thread, and I refuse to do the latter thanks

i posted links earlier


lynch admitted in court to being an informer he also alleged that someone threatened to jab him in the arse and he would wake up in south armagh hung up on a meat hook and no one would hear him scream

he took the first option and confessed to being an informer something he also admitted to in court at the trial of morrison and others


I dont know what would have happened to him had the RUC not arrived morrisons version is a press conference perhaps it would have been a bullet i dont know and neither do you

and that fine you dont have to believe anything the IRA says but dismissing everything they say as a lie means you are always going to accept other versions even if proof and logic point in a different direction

Rock Climber

cdebru wrote:

I dont know what would have happened to him had the RUC not arrived morrisons version is a press conference perhaps it would have been a bullet i dont know and neither do you

Thats fine, its just that when you keep coming up with the IRA or morrisons version of events you give the impression that, that is the one most important to you.
Not surprising really given that the posts you are rebutting are anti morrisson,anti Sinn Féin or anti IRA or all three.

and that fine you dont have to believe anything the IRA says but dismissing everything they say as a lie means you are always going to accept other versions even if proof and logic point in a different direction

One doesnt imply the other.
I absolutely wont accept the IRA's version of anything as quite simply, all evidence points to them being a pack of unaccountable murdering, bombing criminal terrorists, to put it mildly.
I'll continue to apply salt to what I hear about anything from more accountable sources but will be cognisant of the fact that they are accountable and obviously much more transparent than the IRA.

Villain

Rock Climber wrote:

Would that be the same Bertie Ahern who said what kind of eejits do people take us for? ?

He didn't say they were the same though, nor did he say Gerry and Martin sit on the IRA Army Council, what he said was

Bertie Ahern said he believed the Sinn Féin leaders with whom he was negotiating the peace process were at the same time aware that the IRA was planning the Belfast bank heist

Taken from your link Rock Climber

Sand

the IRA had various amnesties for informers

Yeah, thats very true. Martin McGuiness for example assured Frank Hegarty's mother that her son,a British informer who was evacuated to Britain by British intelligence after his information led to the seizure of a libyan arms shipment, would be safe if he returned and was debriefed by SF/IRA - who knows, perhaps theyd have Danny Morrison arrange a fecking press conference about it. They had plenty of amnestys like that. Frank Hegarty's mother is very glad her son availed of SF/IRAs amnesty for informers.

SF/IRA offers amesties....pffft. Martin McGuiness has a bridge he wants to sell you.

as to wether morrison was going to the house on behalf of the IRA of which he was a member or on behalf of SF we dont know

We do know. He was convicted of IRA membership. His defence for otherwise, is ludicrous in the extreme, and even that An Phoblacht article you linked took it with a pinch of salt.

none of that means the two are the same even if some of the leadership of the IRA is also some of the leadership of SF

What *would* it take for you to say that SF/IRA are one and the same for all intents and purposes? Im curious. What level of co-operation, joint membership and in synch politicking would you need to see before youd recognise the reality?

in your opinion

No, its in your opinion! FFS, is there some Boards.ie solicitor firm starting up that I dont know about?

however some people like yourself have always viewed Irish republicans as criminals wether it was 200 years ago or 20

Theres an odd comparison between todays provos and the past republicans. Pearse surrendered *unconditionally* after a week to avoid unneccessary slaughter in Dublin. Todays provos would rather unnecessary slaughter, 30 years of it, than any form of surrender, conditional or unconditional. They view their face and their cause as being important than civillian lives, and refuse to compromise their cause for their sake.

Still, at least they can drape themselves in Bobby Sands carcass and say "Look, look, him killing himself validates us and our murdering crimes!!!"

Who are these people you speak of, pitty my poll didn't last and we might have seen what people on boards thought

We did. 60% reckoned that Adams and McGuiness were on the army council. Whatever the point was of posting that poll it backfired, much as the bank robbery backfired on SF/IRA you might say:D

Here we go again am I supposed to take the IRA's word for that?

Frank Hegartys mother will vouch for their word. Its like iron!

Rock Climber

irish1 wrote:

Taken from your link Rock Climber

Yeah Good read wasn't it?

He didn't say they were the same though, nor did he say Gerry and Martin sit on the IRA Army Council,

And what do you suppose he thought of the two of them if he thought they knew of the robbery? Grade one character reference that,I don't think...

cdebru

Sand wrote:

Yeah, thats very true. Martin McGuiness for example assured Frank Hegarty's mother that her son,a British informer who was evacuated to Britain by British intelligence after his information led to the seizure of a libyan arms shipment, would be safe if he returned and was debriefed by SF/IRA - who knows, perhaps theyd have Danny Morrison arrange a fecking press conference about it. They had plenty of amnestys like that. Frank Hegarty's mother is very glad her son availed of SF/IRAs amnesty for informers.!

http://lark.phoblacht.net/otrkoh.html

here is an interesting article on the frank hegarty killing

Sand wrote:

We do know. He was convicted of IRA membership. His defence for otherwise, is ludicrous in the extreme, and even that An Phoblacht article you linked took it with a pinch of salt.!

it is not an phoblacht it is basically [font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Anthony McIntyre and others who are republican but anti the current provisional movement leadership and direction[/font]

Sand wrote:

What *would* it take for you to say that SF/IRA are one and the same for all intents and purposes? Im curious. What level of co-operation, joint membership and in synch politicking would you need to see before youd recognise the reality? !

I dont think you could ever convince me they are the same because I know they are not

Sand wrote:

Theres an odd comparison between todays provos and the past republicans. Pearse surrendered *unconditionally* after a week to avoid unneccessary slaughter in Dublin. Todays provos would rather unnecessary slaughter, 30 years of it, than any form of surrender, conditional or unconditional. They view their face and their cause as being important than civillian lives, and refuse to compromise their cause for their sake.

Still, at least they can drape themselves in Bobby Sands carcass and say "Look, look, him killing himself validates us and our murdering crimes!!!"

!

pearse had no choice but to surrender

it appears to me that the leadership of the IRA realised that they were in a stalemate in the 80s and set about finding an alternative which has led us to where we are now

Villain

Rock Climber wrote:

Yeah Good read wasn't it?


And what do you suppose he thought of the two of them if he thought they knew of the robbery? Grade one character reference that,I don't think...

Not a bad read at all.

He might think they are privy to what the IRA do or plan to do, does that mean he knows they sit on the IRA Army Council, obviously not if he says he doesn't know. Does that mean he knows the IRA and Sinn Fein are the same, obviously not when he says they are two sides of the same coin.

Rock Climber

irish1 wrote:

He might think they are privy to what the IRA do or plan to do, does that mean he knows they sit on the IRA Army Council, obviously not if he says he doesn't know. Does that mean he knows the IRA and Sinn Fein are the same, obviously not when he says they are two sides of the same coin.

Heh ,I'd like to see someone trying to spend a coin with one side missing.
Good old Bertiespeak,its very like the Sinn Féin speak described in that examiner article,I wonder how he schooled himself in the ways to speak it?

So anyway why do you think Bertie thinks they are privy to what the IRA plans?
How do you think he came to that opinion...Rhetorical question : I'd say he came to that opinion in the same way McDowell came to a stronger worded less greasely worded opinion.
But then McDowell doesn't mince words, he comes straight out with it.
Actually so does Dermot Ahern.

oscarBravo

cdebru wrote:

I dont think you could ever convince me they are the same because I know they are not

I don't think you could ever convince me the sky is blue because I know it is green.

But feel free to pick holes in my carefully constructed logic. If you can.

Villain

Rock Climber wrote:

So anyway why do you think Bertie thinks they are privy to what the IRA plans?
How do you think he came to that opinion...Rhetorical question : I'd say he came to that opinion in the same way McDowell came to a stronger worded less greasely worded opinion.
But then McDowell doesn't mince words, he comes straight out with it.
Actually so does Dermot Ahern.

McDowell talks crap unfounded crap at that, Bertie Ahern is the leader of this state and I'd be more inclined to accept his word than that of a PD member.

Villain

oscarBravo wrote:

I don't think you could ever convince me the sky is blue because I know it is green.

Ah you have those glasses on as well

cdebru

oscarBravo wrote:

I don't think you could ever convince me the sky is blue because I know it is green.

But feel free to pick holes in my carefully constructed logic. If you can.

actually the sky is not blue but thats for another day

i know what i know as micheal says