Enough Already?

Sleepy

cdebru wrote:

does that mean you put her in the same group as arab businessmen who bought Irish citizenship


it is a simple question people are contending that the 6 counties are a foreign country
the president of this state was born and reared there that is her home do the people who consider the 6 counties as a foreign country consider we have a foreigner as our president

I'll rise to the bait and feed that troll.

I'd never thought of it before you asked the question, but yes, I do believe she's a foreigner and has no more right to be president than Khalid al-Masri. Though, that said, I don't agree with our citizenship laws at all. IMHO, naturalisation aside, one only should only have a right to an Irish passport if one is born to citizens of the Republic of Ireland resident within this country.

cdebru

Earthman wrote:

you should know perfectly well that according to the laws of this country and our constitution, anyone born on the island of Ireland is entitled to Irish citizenship.
A son or daughter is also entitled even if they are born outside the island.
Legal citizenship rights and legal territorial rights are two entirely different matters.
The laws of the Republic of Ireland apply to the 26 counties only because the Republic of Ireland is legally defined and as a member of the UN as representing the territory of the 26 counties.
Have a smoke in a newry bar and that should be clear enough.
The laws of the United kingdom apply to the 6 counties but not to the Republic of Ireland because it is legally and teritorially a foreign country and vice versa.
Aspirationally of course is an entirely different matter.

i know who governs the six counties at the moment
that does not answer the question do the people who believe it is a foreign country believe our president is a foreigner

the issue of the north is more complex than simply saying it is part of the UK it is a foreign country and has nothing to do with us

cdebru

Sleepy wrote:

I'll rise to the bait and feed that troll.

I'd never thought of it before you asked the question, but yes, I do believe she's a foreigner and has no more right to be president than Khalid al-Masri. Though, that said, I don't agree with our citizenship laws at all. IMHO, naturalisation aside, one only should only have a right to an Irish passport if one is born to citizens of the Republic of Ireland resident within this country.

that is what i wanted to know

so in your opinion mary mcaleese or indeed anyone born in the 6 counties is no more Irish than khalid al -masri

cdebru

cdebru wrote:

i know who governs the six counties at the moment
that does not answer the question do the people who believe it is a foreign country believe our president is a foreigner

Well you will have to ask whoever it is you are asking that question to, people will have varying opinions, my own is no, for the reasons outlined.
Though I'd aspire to a united Ireland whilst recognising the legal parameters of the current territorial position.
That means anyone entitled to an Irish passport whether they take it or not is Irish in my view including Ian Paisley(assuming he's entitled to one)

Sleepy has a different view to me.

Sleepy

irish1 wrote:

I may be wrong here, but doesn't every party sitting in the Dail want a United Ireland?

Do you honestly believe that?

Every party pays lip service to the "ideal" of a 32 county Ireland in order to pacify the likes of yourself. Fianna Fail are no more actively seeking a 32 country state than they are a socialist one. I think it's blatantly clear that what all parties (excluding Sinn Fein) are striving towards is the creation of an independent, power-sharing Northern Ireland. Britain don't want it, neither do we. I know there are polls showing that a small majority of Irish citizens would like a 32 county Ireland but I've yet to see one phrased realisticly (i.e. would you still want it if you had to pay for it?) and the ratification of the GFA saw a massive majority of the citizens of this country give up our claim on the North.

Sleepy

cdebru wrote:

the issue of the north is more complex than simply saying it is part of the UK it is a foreign country and has nothing to do with us

Why? Simply because a minority of this country refuse to accept reality?

Sleepy

cdebru wrote:

that is what i wanted to know

so in your opinion mary mcaleese or indeed anyone born in the 6 counties is no more Irish than khalid al -masri

Unless their parents were Irish citizens merely visiting the North, yes.

cdebru

Sleepy wrote:

Unless their parents were Irish citizens merely visiting the North, yes.

what nationality do you consider people from the six counties to be

cdebru

Sleepy wrote:

Do you honestly believe that?

Every party pays lip service to the "ideal" of a 32 county Ireland in order to pacify the likes of yourself. Fianna Fail are no more actively seeking a 32 country state than they are a socialist one. I think it's blatantly clear that what all parties (excluding Sinn Fein) are striving towards is the creation of an independent, power-sharing Northern Ireland. Britain don't want it, neither do we. I know there are polls showing that a small majority of Irish citizens would like a 32 county Ireland but I've yet to see one phrased realisticly (i.e. would you still want it if you had to pay for it?) and the ratification of the GFA saw a massive majority of the citizens of this country give up our claim on the North.

It is the entitlement and birthright of every person born in the island of Ireland, which includes its islands and seas, to be part of the Irish nation. That is also the entitlement of all persons otherwise qualified in accordance with law to be citizens of Ireland. Furthermore, the Irish nation cherishes its special affinity with people of Irish ancestry living abroad who share its cultural identity and heritage

article 2

Villain

Sleepy wrote:

Do you honestly believe that?

Well I believe it's in every parties mandate, that was the point I was making, whether every party is actually doing anything about is very questionable.

A Dub in Glasgo

It looks as if my original interpretation of the original post is correct.

As for the topic at hand, i do not think the Republic of Ireland government spends too much time on the North. I think that they use the North as smokescreen when they see fit though, this probably creates the impression that all their energies are channelled into the North.

As for people in general and this board.... if they truly believe tht Irish people from the North are not truly 'Irish', then nothing short of ignoring the problem will probably satisfy them. Any involvment in the the North for an Irish government is too much for them.

I will state it again as it is the most logical of statements

You can ignore a problem but it will not go away

Sleepy

Quite frankly though, A_Dub_In_Glasgow, it's not our problem to deal with. It's a problem for the people of Northern Ireland to sort out themselves and tbh, I don't think they'll tackle it until they're forced to (i.e. by being left on their own to sort things out)

monument

So, it’s something like… ‘Bashing them and using NI as a football doesn’t work… lets ignore the north… that’ll make them go away!’

Honest, I think it’s a better idea then basking them (or suggesting that the army goes out and kill all suspected IRA members), well done Sleepy!

Sleepy wrote:

state of our health system, our falling apart at the seams education system, …

It’s news to me that our health, and education resources are being sent up north. Do you have figures on how much time the relevant ministers spend on NI issues? And how much the departments spend on such?

MT wrote:

Hence, why I see the rise of Sinn Féin as such a threat.

At least you’re being honest that you see the party as the real threat.

Sleepy wrote:

Independence for the North sounds like the most sensible thing for them imho. Let the Brits cut off the cash and our government keep their noses out of it as well and Northerners would then be forced to actually sort out their problems instead of just paying lip service to them.

Although not very popular, an independence NI is something I given more thought to then a united Ireland. But I don’t think I could agree on the idea of the two governments keeping their ‘heads out’ at this point or any time soon.

Anyway, I don’t think there’s any point in talking about an united Ireland while there isn’t even devolved government in the north. I wouldn’t be surprised if devolved government wasn’t generations away.

Sleepy wrote:

cdebru, there was also a first word there: "Northern". Distinctly put there to distinguish between two very different things.

Anyone growing up in Northern Ireland has had a distinctly different life than someone from the Republic.

Like the distinct difference between the mindsets in Dublin, Galway, Cork, Donegal, Mayo (North Mayo, and South Mayo – North West Mayo and North East Mayo)?

Like the distinct differences between people who have grown up the middle of no where and those who come from a town?

Like the distinct differences between people who have grown up in D4 and areas of Dublin that are seen as less well off.

Like the distinct differences of a one child household, and a seven child household?

Like the distinct differences between a church going family and a “non- practicing” their religion family?

Oh, you get the idea (or at least should).

[I don’t support the idea that the any nation/state must unite ‘its people’ – but I just can’t stand ‘distinct differences’ type arguments - oh, and sorry for ranting (for too long)!]

MT

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

You can ignore a problem but it will not go away

Would you apply such thinking to all global trouble spots? There is currently a problem in the disputed region of Kashmir so should the Irish government become involved? There is support for succession in the Banda Aceh region of Indonesia, so again, should the government become involved? These problems have existed for a long time, have yet to be fully resolved but have been continually ignored by Ireland’s government. Will you be calling for Bertie Ahern to take action so that they might ‘go away’?

cdebru wrote:

do you see the second word in there IRISH they are just as Irish as anyone born in the 26 counties

And under UK law they’re just as British as anyone born in Scotland, Wales or England is. In reality, in one case they are potential citizens and in the other de facto and de jure citizens. Which caries the most weight as far as some ones day to day life is concerned? The latter, of course.

As far as I’m concerned, citizenship is much more important than merely a name or description. It’s about actively participating in your state/democracy. Citizenship carries with it a responsibility to fulfil certain duties such as payment of taxes, abiding the laws of the land and choosing through voting those who govern. So while people in the US or Northern Ireland may well be entitled to an Irish passport or to call themselves Irish, I feel it cheapens the status of citizenship to draw a parity of status between these people and those who actually live, work and pay taxes in the Irish Republic.

Take myself, for example. I was born and live in Northern Ireland. To consider me as much of an Irish citizen as someone such as, say, Sleepy, would I feel be something of an insult. I’ve never paid a penny in tax to the Irish government. I’ve never once participated in choosing the Irish government by voting. There’s probably a list of things as long as your arm that I haven’t fulfilled when compared to a real citizen of the Irish Republic. So to turn around and say, ‘there you are MT, you’re just as much of an Irish citizen as Sleepy’ completely degrades the value of that status.

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

…if they truly believe tht Irish people from the North are not truly 'Irish',

What exactly does the term ‘truly Irish’ mean? Is there some devious conspiracy whereby there are differing grades? To all intents and purposes people such as myself are de facto foreigners to the Irish Republic as far as the matter of reality is concerned. We may not wish it to be so but such sentiments cannot avoid the inescapable reality.

cdebru wrote:

seriously what about sport a shared history culture arts religion language music television and with at least 40% odd of the population of the 6 counties a shared Irish identity and loyalty

Such reflections could be deployed just as easily to make the case for maintaining NI’s place with the UK. The people of NI and GB have a very similar interest in sport, watch the same TV and furthermore the latest survey (ERSI) states that 87% of Protestants there wish to remain in the UK while more than 20% of Catholics do so likewise. So a clear majority prefer the constitutional status quo. So if the qualifications you refer to were what’s required for nationality such indicators would suggest the place should be British and not Irish.


Apologies to all for the random nature of the quotes used. I’ve been away for a few days so just getting my bearings having rejoined this thread with so much already posted.

A Dub in Glasgo

MT wrote:

Would you apply such thinking to all global trouble spots? There is currently a problem in the disputed region of Kashmir so should the Irish government become involved? There is support for succession in the Banda Aceh region of Indonesia, so again, should the government become involved? These problems have existed for a long time, have yet to be fully resolved but have been continually ignored by Ireland’s government. Will you be calling for Bertie Ahern to take action so that they might ‘go away’?

No as this situation has nothing to do with global trouble spots

And under UK law they’re just as British as anyone born in Scotland, Wales or England is.

And nobody here made the claim that they are not.. did they? We are talking about the view that some people hold that anybody outside of the Republics border are somehow less Irish or not Irish at all.

In reality, in one case they are potential citizens and in the other de facto and de jure citizens. Which caries the most weight as far as some ones day to day life is concerned? The latter, of course.

As far as I’m concerned, citizenship is much more important than merely a name or description. It’s about actively participating in your state/democracy. Citizenship carries with it a responsibility to fulfil certain duties such as payment of taxes, abiding the laws of the land and choosing through voting those who govern. So while people in the US or Northern Ireland may well be entitled to an Irish passport or to call themselves Irish, I feel it cheapens the status of citizenship to draw a parity of status between these people and those who actually live, work and pay taxes in the Irish Republic.

Well I am currently a resident of the UK and could go for UK citizenship now but I choose not to. Am I less Irish because I am not paying taxes in the Republic and have lived there for nearly 12 years?

Take myself, for example. I was born and live in Northern Ireland. To consider me as much of an Irish citizen as someone such as, say, Sleepy, would I feel be something of an insult.

Why? I would not be insulted at all. Who would be insulted?

I’ve never paid a penny in tax to the Irish government. I’ve never once participated in choosing the Irish government by voting. There’s probably a list of things as long as your arm that I haven’t fulfilled when compared to a real citizen of the Irish Republic.

You are defining Irishness with the Republic. I do not see it that way at all. I have never paid tax in the Republic, I have not voted in an Irish Election since the early '90s... am I less Irish?

So to turn around and say, ‘there you are MT, you’re just as much of an Irish citizen as Sleepy’ completely degrades the value of that status.

You have the choice, have you chosen the Irish path?

What exactly does the term ‘truly Irish’ mean? Is there some devious conspiracy whereby there are differing grades?

I don't really know, it is not me who is putting a tiered level of Irishness to all this. Others are.

To all intents and purposes people such as myself are de facto foreigners to the Irish Republic as far as the matter of reality is concerned. We may not wish it to be so but such sentiments cannot avoid the inescapable reality.

Defining Irishness within the confines of the Republic.... why?

Such reflections could be deployed just as easily to make the case for maintaining NI’s place with the UK. The people of NI and GB have a very similar interest in sport, watch the same TV and furthermore the latest survey (ERSI) states that 87% of Protestants there wish to remain in the UK while more than 20% of Catholics do so likewise. So a clear majority prefer the constitutional status quo. So if the qualifications you refer to were what’s required for nationality such indicators would suggest the place should be British and not Irish.

Nobody has even questioned that. Yet you are suggesting that someone from NI who feels they are Irish and who is entitled to be Irish should not because it would be insulting to some anonymous person in the Republic

Ok most of the off topic stuff on Irishness/citizenship etc is in its own thread now here
Ye can continue the discussion on citizenship etc there if ye wish.
But keep both this one and that one on topic thanks.