Friends, Family, Closets.

LegacyUser

Hi,

I'm not sure why I need to tell you this, but it lets me sort things out in my head.

I've also just turned 23 and that's not helping.

I'm not sure what my friends' exact opinions are of me either, but I'm confident they'd say I was a caring person - a good friend, fun to be around - a nice guy. I have two very close friends who care a lot about me; they listen to me, support me, they come to me when I need them. I feel privileged to know them.

They've told me I've lived a lot for someone so young -- their way, I think, of telling me I've got everything figured out in my life. They know I'm bi, and I didn't have to "come out" to them; it was a natural question to ask when things were right. I don't talk about it (too) much; the other guy I live with doesn't even know (shows how much "action" I get ). With their support I got over a relationship that had left me feeling broken, nasty and worthless. A great accomplishment for any friend ? Sure... but they didn't know they were even helping me - that's how great it's been. Their love and support made me like myself (well.. love myself, but not the way you're thinking) again, a gradual process they weren't even conscious of participating in.

I'd rebounded before with the usual horrible consequences but their support was so completely, entirely, absolutely different. They weren't a crutch, they weren't a goal, they weren't something I had to prove to myself... they were just friends. Amazing, fantastic friends.

I told them I was bi in the only way I understand it myself... I don't see gender as that big a deal. If you fall for a guy or girl you're not falling for his penis or her vagina. I can perfectly understand that some people are attracted to one gender only, gay or straight and sex with anyone else is not a nice thought. But honestly, for me, gender matters about as much as hair colour.

These friends understand this, they know I've been with guys and girls before. They know I don't really identify to the label "bi" or "gay", they understand who I am and can accept that I was born with an enhanced sense of style.

What they don't know is how much I hate myself and what I'm doing.

In a perfect world I'd find the guy/girl of my dreams, we'd move in together, have potentially illegal amounts of fun and grow old in the Caribbean. I realise this is not a perfect world so I'd be happy with sharing a tent on a rainy weekend, having governmentally approved levels of fun and growing old in Clonakilty.

I still can't have it though. Not even Bundoran.

I feel obliged to my family. To my mam and dad who I love a lot. To my brothers and sisters who are incredibly important to me. I feel obliged to be straight. I think every queer person who's grown up with an Irish Catholic mother understands this (no offence to Catholics, I enjoyed my time as an altar boy and the priests I had the pleasure to meet were amazing, kind-hearted, intellectual men that I regret I probably won't ever get to know as friends).

It's a dilemma, a dichotomy of my soul, a distress and a damn pain. I fully realise I can not live my life as other people would like me to. I can not deny the emotions I feel - love - because it makes them feel "icky". My mother is intensely Catholic. My dad not as much, but not much better. My sister... she's sweet but innocent, "Eddie Izzard, would he be a goth ?", "er, ...no". Er, no sis. He's a tranny. Thirty two is an innocent age.

Besides, it's just a "phase".

A phase called "my life", if you'll forgive the post-teen angst. I don't think I'm going to change, I've tried to convince myself in the past that it's girls I'm after. Guys are easier to get, no doubt, they're happy to do the work but girls you have to chase. Besides, I've always been a bit shy, it's only recently I've come out of my fabulously decorated shell. I mean, when you think about it, really, like, you know, girls are great and all, they have such cool hair too. But that guy there, he's cute, he's really cute. Sweet, cute, and fun. Oh and he's giving me a cuddle, hmmm, what's that.. hey! no! not now! get back down there! I hope he can't feel that... sorta.

Dammit.

I don't have to tell them - I know. There's no pressure to... except I've just turned 23 and haven't brought a girl home to meet my parents yet. This is disappointing my mother, enough to drown out the "contraception!?! not in this country!" part of her. My brothers.. my sister.. they ask too.. "Come on, who is she ?". Ugh. I don't have to tell them - because soon enough they'll know. Not this year, not the next, but soon enough.

And it feels like I'm just killing time.

I have fun these days, I've finally found friends who like having fun the way I do. Sitting in a noisy pub, listening to music you don't really like, drinking foul concoctions (Guinness excepted, obviously), shouting just to be heard. Really, if that's your thing, excellent. I don't think I'm better than you, I don't think you're daft, if that's how you have fun, brilliant! Have more fun! I've never liked it though. It's not me. I get my fun at the beach, or going for a spin to nowhere in particular, or a trip to the mountains late at night. There's no music, there're no drinks, just friends talking, joking and enjoying themselves. I'm happy, so happy with my life right now. I feel like a full person, I don't need a relationship. Squeezes are cool and it's nice to get my belly rubbed in bed but I'm still happy without them. Besides, if I'm really bi then there's only a 50% chance I'll have to tell my family... Destiny wears a bra!

And it feels like I'm just killing time.

I'm not meeting anyone new. At least, I'm not getting close to anyone new. I don't "act" gay and, as is typical for an Irish male, am completely oblivious to flirting that doesn't involve direct genital contact. The first girl I ever slept with had to make it painfully obvious she liked me. Yes, a girl has squeezed my biceps in a bar while asking "have you been working out ?" ...and I didn't think she was flirting.

I think about all these things and I get mad.

Mad at myself for not doing something about it! Work to fix the problem, find the cause, determine plausible solutions and their possible implications. Select the best option and live with consequences. Gah! This is worse than AIX! Angry because I don't know where the problem even begins. Me ? My family ? Both ? I don't know. If it's really just my family then how come I haven't told other friends ? I know I don't define myself by my sexual preference and I hate those people who do; who like to remind you they're gay at every possible opportunity. I don't define myself this way but other people do. Other people consider sexuality an incredibly core component of themselves - and it is - so why should I hide myself from them ? I'm not sure, but I do anyway.

My anger... but it's everyone's problem.

It escapes from me. Even sitting quietly thinking about where I'm going, it always falls down the same way. My friends, my closest friends, they have to deal with it. I'll become moody for hours. I don't scream and shout - no - far worse, I'll sit quietly, won't participate, withdraw away from them. I eventually come round and I may even give some stupid excuse... "too many late nights", "haven't eaten all day, just tired, you know". I'm so sure they see through it too and I worry about what this does to how they think of me. I know it'd take a lot from me to lose them, but it's not helping. I can't keep doing this. I hate who I am when I'm like that.

My solution ?

The final answer, the solution to my problem; I honestly don't know. I'm not sure where I even start. I've grown up so much lately though; I'm learning to recognise which friends are fun people to be around and which friends are so miraculously important I need to stay close to them... and if I'm lucky enough, I will.

damien

Wow. I'm going to need to read this a few times before I can give a worthy reply. What you wrote maybe tragic and painful but damn it's just beautifully written. Write more, maybe not here but somewhere. One quick thing, you ain't alone. Many people experience what you have experienced and find the light and the good will win through.

Boston

I honestly don;t know what to say. Your post just has so much raw truth in it, so much unfiltered emotion, it's abit over whelming. Much of it struck a cord with me, the friends family and catholic bits. You seem very sweet, and definitely not someone who should hate himself.

moridin

A couple of things strike me upon reading your post. The first, as damien said, it's incredibly well written, and you come across as someone who prettymuch knows who they are and has a lot of things sorted in their life. That's a big thing, really, there's a lot of people much older than you that are so much more confused about life in general than you seem to be.

As you put it:

They know I don't really identify to the label "bi" or "gay", they understand who I am and can accept that I was born with an enhanced sense of style.

You know yourself, but you're finding it hard to accept that you are who you are. I can definately identify with that. I knew I was gay for years but I really really didn't want to be. My parents found out when I was 16, in less than ideal circumstances, which made them think that gay people were weird freaks and they felt like they needed to protect me from being gay.

I didn't actually accept that I was gay until I was um, about 20 or so, and only then because I fell head over heels in love with someone.

As for my parents, they only accepted things when they met my last boyfriend and realised how utterly lovely he is. Now they ask me how he is every time they see me, even though we broke up over a year ago

I don't think that anyone's going to be able to offer a simple solution to what is a really complex problem for you.

Personally, my thoughts on the situation are to urge you not to hate yourself. Notwithstanding your enhanced sense of style, you're clearly a compassionate, sensitive person who's both intelligent and enjoys his life. If you're not meeting new people then it's time to start doing something new - take up a new hobby, pick something that you've always been interested in and get involved.

It seems that all you need is a little more support. Things will sort themselves out in time, naturally, there's no need to hurry along the "coming out" for your family until you're comfortable enough with who you are that it's no longer such a big issue.

Hugs are fantastic, have one on me *hug*

Feel free to PM me, or prettymuch any of the regular posters on the forum if you feel like you need to talk more.

Hmm_Messiah

I'd like to thank you for what you wrote; I'm sure your reasons were different that this, but I feel privileged to read something so well written, and so honest and intimate.

I think many people would find resonance in things you wrote, even just choice words. I agree that perhaps you should write more.

Offhand I would suggest you speak to some one face to face, a counsellor perhaps. Not because of your sexuality, but because there is something eating away at was is obviously otherwise a wonderful and potentialy happy person. Unless you experience it its difficult to beleive but speaking, lettignthe words flow to a stranger can be very helpful, if only in releasing pressure for a short time. But also some of your worries, while real, can become overwhelming when put together.


The quality of your friends, and the value they place on you is remarkable, and you should see as indicative of how people will respond to the complete person who you are. People who fail to get over some contructed opinion on sexuality, its not so much they don't matter, but that they are the ones lacking, and you still have something wonderful to rejoice in, you !

I don't want to presume that I know better :-) so you might have read yur family very well, and the dilemma is real and unresolvable.

I can tell you my family is catholic, and my siblings are orthodox/conventional in the extreme. My mum's would see her life as valueless I think if she had not her religion, rosary beads, devotion etc.

I told her I was in love with a guy at 30! she responded with delight that I was happy. She had concerns (one being how will you explain to anhy girl you meet after JP? ) but mothers will always have concerns. She made the new change in my life (the declaration of loving a man and the experience of living with one) easy and safe. My family respoinded by welcomign this guy TOTALLY into their life as my family (my brother was very annoyed that I had not brought my partner to his son's christening as my partner!)

I used be more involved even in catholicism as I once studied theology, lived in the monastery all that. No one saw my new life as a failure or a distortion. There has never even been an awkward moment when a gay joke is said in company etc etc.

I am not sure how immersed you personally are now in religion/belief, or if your catholic upbringing is still whispering here that "this is wrong". If so I'd like to tell you that simply isn;t the case. sexuality oreintation is not a sin, nor is what activites you get up to. Sin is deliberately acting against God; being fully who God made you is NOT a sin. Ok the Pope has his opinion, and priests have etc, but thats all it is, opinion, and flawed opinion. Jesus Christ doesn't care less if you like men or women, all he cares for is that you feel complete as a human, and that any relationships you have are caring and affectionate and "whole"some.

This isn't just my opinion, this is catholic theology .

I don't understand why you thik you can't have your dream. Is this because entirely of your family ? maybe you might explain more.

Oh speaking of family I should of mentioned two were openly homophobic but totally welcomed JP , infact one broter was always difficult to get on with, we'd rarely talk. He used go out of his way to give JP a lift to visit me etc, was very cool thinking back.

There is no dichotomy within your Soul; your soul is complete and ready to embrace the fullness of you as an individual. The dichotomy seems to be in the responsibilities you feel to others.

I wish I knew your name, I find it strange talking of these things to "some one". But Ardam, when your mothers hopefully long life is close to an end do you thik she would, in her soul, her centre, be happy to relasie you've not been yourself for her sake, that you limited your life?

"Mad at myself for not doing something about it! Work to fix the problem, find the cause, determine plausible solutions and their possible implications. Select the best option and live with consequences."

Give yourself a break !!!! Madness wouldn't progress things.
"Angry because I don't know where the problem even begins. Me ? My family ? Both ? I don't know. If it's really just my family then how come I haven't told other friends ? I know I don't define myself by my sexual preference and I hate those people who do; who like to remind you they're gay at every possible opportunity. I don't define myself this way but other people do. Other people consider sexuality an incredibly core component of themselves - and it is - so why should I hide myself from them ? I'm not sure, but I do anyway."

This paragraph contains all you should tackle. Again i think you should speak it over with some one. A friend might help, but I think some one removed from you could offer different perspectives. Your intelligence can in some ways be an obstacle, it takes over analysing allt he data, but failing then to see something small but important within the mix of concerns and worries.

"My anger... but it's everyone's problem."

Anger and hurt are two close emotions. Anger is good if you move to resolve what anger you. Sometimes its easier to be angry though that to express hurt in a full way. Hurt means e are vulnerable. But healing hurt can have an overwhelming effect.

" I can't keep doing this. I hate who I am when I'm like that."

Some of what you wrote touches closely to things happening to me, and this line in particalur struck a chord. When you use the word "hate" you know its time to tackle things in a complete way. And no you can't keep maintaining so many contradictions.


"The final answer, the solution to my problem; I honestly don't know. I'm not sure where I even start. I've grown up so much lately though; I'm learning to recognise which friends are fun people to be around and which friends are so miraculously important I need to stay close to them... and if I'm lucky enough, I will."

There may be people reading you words who can show you a start.
Though, well its kinda obvious, you posted here, you wrote such extra ordinary words.
You have started.

know Peace .

dictatorcat

What everyone here has said is so true. It's so rare to read someones feelings, and identify with them, it's almost as though you've made some sort of brief emotional attachment with the reader.

As for your content, you seem to be so well in touch with your inner self, i'm sure that whatever decisions you come to in life, they will ultimately be for the best and true to yourself.

As you have been so open with us, it's only natural that we would want you to know a little about our lives, if not to just let you know you're not alone but to somehow reaffirm who we are.

Similarly my parents are strict catholics, though my dad's views have softened over the years my mother has become increasingly introspective, to the point where i don't know her opinions on very many issues, but her opinions i do know have somehow festered into intolerance for everyone who is not the catholic "norm". However i love them nont the less.

My sister, who i love very much, and trust, knows that i'm gay. She sounds very similar to your sister, which is why i might suggest telling her first, if that is the route you wish to go down. I have chosen not to tell my parents but i can rest assured that my sister will support me should the need to tell them arise.

As for "bringing home a girl", everyone gets this, gay or straight. Actually something very funny happened last weekend, my parents invited one of my old school friends over to the house, she's also our next door neighbour. They basically weren't sublte about what they were up to, i went bright red when they told me. But it wasn't so bad, if anything it was a great way to find out what all my old mates were doing with their lives. They'll eventually get the message to leave things well alone.

Telling your friends is always a big step. Luckilly i had to leave home to go to college, where i made the most wonderful friends in the world, all of whom accepted my coming out so easily, they knew i hadn't suddenly changed during the night, that i am still the same person they've always known. None of my friends reacted badly, and if they had done then they wouldn't have really been my friend.

This leads to the conflict that most of us have in our lives. How to reconcile all the aspects of who we are. We all act differently around our family than we do when we are with our friends, the question is how differently? If the gulf grows too large there is a risk that our families will never know who we truly are.

As for being moody, don't beat yourself up over it. I pretend to be sick, or tired or whatever to get out of going out with friends simply because i'm feeling down in the dumps. It's common, i've caught my friends at it numerous times!

Finally, there's nothing unreal about your dreams, believe it or not an astronaut once told me "reach for the stars, you never know, you just might get there", I kid you not.

LegacyUser

wow what great responses to his suituation. if i hadnt remembered What I was doing that night; I’d have thought that was me writing it. It has struck many a cord. I’m also 23 and a student of sociology here in Sligo. And boy is it hard being gay. Actually its completely impossible but I’m sure thats the same everywhere, there’s a faction of us Gay/bisexual men out there that are staying in every weekend or going out with there straight male friends having to go on the pull!! It’s a real head ****.

I play soccer three times a week, attend all the car modified shows, modify cars and basically equate with a totally heterosexual group of men. I’ve never had any gay friends but six people who I trust do know.

There’s a guy in my class and he goes to meet a group of people in a pub in Sligo, then there’s a group called “the pink parade” I think and there’s outwest. So there are all these options but it means coming out and accepting that one is gay. Hell it sounds easy but in this judgemental, egotistical and queer bashing society we have, it’s hard to be a minority. In my youth when I was in school I played all the normal sports rugby, soccer and Gaelic. Done the girlfriend thing and now I think that if I’d been gayer and hung around with girls it may in fact be somewhat easier now.

As shocking as that sounds at least people would have an idea that maybe I was gay. I’m sick of listening to the gay jokes and the comments about “**** me he’s gay” and “such a puff”. I’m in the thick of it. You begin to suppress every part of your existence.

I know that I have feelings toward girls and I have to say walking down O’Connell Street in Sligo there is some major cute ass, but the only reason I do that is because of conditioning. That’s what society, values and norms expect us too do. I have to force myself to look at the guys who are cute and force myself to maybe hope that they look back and not put down my head if your caught looking. Its ridiculous but yunno what when your doing something for so long its hard to primarily rewire the hard drive (pardon the pun). At the end of the day if we look and examine both sides of the field, being gay has caused many men to isolate themselves resulting in a nation that has alarming, growing numbers of suicide, eating disorders, depression (including manic and clinical) and worse of all loneliness. This issue has to be tackled and maybe it starts off with us here. Being able to: I dunno, god forbid go too a straight nightclub and kiss a guy in the middle of a dance floor and not have every minker and knacker in the place want your blood. The other side is to not tell any1 your gay and live a life on isolation and avoidance of any gay temptations. And that’s so sad, I know of so many older gay guys whom just to that. I’m probably just echoing other people’s words but no one should be expected to do that.

I’m planning to go out tomorrow night to meet a friend of mine whom I haven’t seen since secondary school and **** it; I’m just going to tell her. And I’ll get the exact same response that I’ve gotten each time. Oh that’s great and how many boyfriends have you had and oh what do you think of him and so on… So I’ll go on to tell her am well you see there’s been no one and I’ve been with a girl every weekend in Toffs for as long as I can remember. Then she’ll try and tell me oh I’ve got a gay friend (has everyone???) and he’s so cute and you’ll be perfect together! Does every1 get this response, do straight people think that every gay guy must be attracted to every other gay guy. It’s bizarre!

So before this gets very Sarah Jessica Parker (I got ta thinking) what are the options out there for straight guys that just cant do the gay thing. Yes, it’s the right thing to do and no, you will have to remove yourself from all your straight friends because they won’t be comfortable with it. Even the thoughts of meeting up with someone, freeks me out completely, maybe there’s someone out there that has an easy answer or has been through the same thing, I’m sure there are lots of gay guys like me who read this column day after day hoping for some taste of enlightenment. So now I can’t write any more dilemma’s…..cause ive to got meet charolette and Miranda for brunch!! slán

Hmm_Messiah

Sligo_guy wrote:

" I’ve never had any gay friends but six people who I trust do know. "

You need to change that.


" Hell it sounds easy but in this judgemental, egotistical and queer bashing society we have, it’s hard to be a minority."

Its harder on every level to be something less that fully you . I understand your fears etc, but in your present situation you can't even guess at how it boasts your feelings and attitudes when you connect with part of who you are thats called ..sexuality.

" I’m in the thick of it. You begin to suppress every part of your existence. "

god , i can almost feel what you're feeling.
It CAN REALLY get better.

" At the end of the day if we look and examine both sides of the field, being gay has caused many men to isolate themselves resulting in a nation that has alarming, growing numbers of suicide, eating disorders, depression (including manic and clinical) and worse of all loneliness. This issue has to be tackled and maybe it starts off with us here. "

It might be worth distinguishing that its not being gay thAT causes these things, gayness is healty and wholesome and positive. But the sad things you list: I hope some of those people find some help and solidarity among the people here (I only know moridin and ixoy on any kind of real level, and know i've benefitted from their...chat)



"Being able to: I dunno, god forbid go too a straight nightclub and kiss a guy in the middle of a dance floor and not have every minker and knacker in the place want your blood."

This I have done in wee kilkenny (sure others have too) It was an extra ordinary feeling, with no "negative" reaction, kinda cool in it felt in some way like i was celebrating being with this guy; then it just felt normal - good, simple, right.

" Then she’ll try and tell me oh I’ve got a gay friend (has everyone???) and he’s so cute and you’ll be perfect together! Does every1 get this response, do straight people think that every gay guy must be attracted to every other gay guy. It’s bizarre! "

Never happened to me ! I guess my mates would not wish the bundle of intensity/neuroses that is me on any of their friends


a final thought :
It is possible to grow into your gay life ; for whatever reason live te life thats expected locally and travel away from friends and family and grow comfortable with other gay people etc etc. I'd suggest you be careful about how you make acquaintences wit strangers in a strange place but .....
I know for some time I'd travel to Dublin and have weekends of being more fully me. And getting comfortable withsome things (I disliked stereotype s like camp people etc until I knew some) . In my case friends I made on Irc were a great bonus and help (thanks if any of them read here.)

Anyways
Sligo Guy thanks for your words too. Its been a while since I seen somethign here that has affected posters in a real empathic way.

Hope you find solutions other than denial or isolation.

There are alternatives

c3van5

Wow, there is a lot of emotion in this thread... Makes me wish I had more to say!


" Then she’ll try and tell me oh I’ve got a gay friend (has everyone???) and he’s so cute and you’ll be perfect together! Does every1 get this response, do straight people think that every gay guy must be attracted to every other gay guy. It’s bizarre! "

I get this response every blooming time, only its "i have this gay friend, well not actually a friend, he's my flatmate's brother's stable groomer's nephew. But he was reeeeeally nice and sooooo sweet! You'd be so cute together, but he lives in Gibraltar."
You know, well meaning but pointless information. It can get annoying but it shows that people are trying to help.

snappieT

Thank You

Thank You So Much.

You have no idea how much clarity that provided for me.
You have no idea how much that has just helped me.

Thank You!

I seriously think that this ought to be nominated for the 'letter to the editor' forum.

damien

Good call.

Ardam

Wow, thank you for your feedback. I was in two minds about posting but now I'm very glad I did. Writing down what's going on in my head makes me stop and think about it. Explaining my thoughts to you forces me to try understand them myself.

I really enjoyed reading your posts. I'd rather not butcher them up with

tags, there are so many points I agree with and everyone has their own personal stories. It's interesting and reassuring and fun I sincerely thank you for your advice and for taking the time to read through my posts...

Right now I should be happier than I've ever been in my life. I think I've made it clear enough in my last post how good things are going for me Everything should be fine, but I'm not acting that way. Feels like somethings missing.

I love to hug and touch, cuddle, tickle, anything all the time or just when you don't mind Possibly a little too much I know ...now (pity my first over-squeezed squeeze). I want to be close to you, right there, where you can touch me and let me know you want to be close too. I don't have sex dreams (much), I have cuddle dreams. It felt like heaven the first time I lay on a couch watching TV with my arms wrapped around someone. Eastenders was never so good.

Just like the buildup of sexual energy I get, I need to release this affection too. Hugging Penthouse isn't the same. Sexual attraction is enough for a one handed shuffle beneath the blankets, a one night stand, anonymous sex. Sexual attraction lets you release all those horny daemons rampaging in an electrochemical storm through your head -- exorcising them into Kleenex oblivion.

Hugs aren't that easy to give away. Empathy, affection and, to say what I really mean, love are harder to find -- harder to fulfill but at the same time more fulfilling. There isn't the same immediate gratification of clicking a link, renting a video or buying azezil half a shandy. You need to work for it, work at it, you need your love reciprocated too. And I need this to be obvious. I think that's why I find flirting difficult; how do you sort the signals of "yeah, I like you too" from all the other noises.

All the people I've slept with I've been friends with first. Some for years, some just for months, but I got to know them all with no pressure to be anything other than a mate (not in the David Attenborough sense). They were people I found interesting and nice enough to want to be around and they wanted to be around me too; no sex needed. While I may have problems flirting it's this one fact that consoles me completely.

Friendly hugs are cool. They rock Friendly hugs are under no pressure; they mean what they mean, they are pure affection. Relationship hugs and cuddles? Hmm, well by relationship I mean friends who have sex. I think sex is like hitting the big red button on friendship. There's a crazy intense love; feelings surpassing what you ever felt before as friends -- things are on fire... until it all burns out. Friends stick around and, though you don't get to sleep with them, you do get your CDs and t-shirts back. There is no middle-ground between the two that I can find. Adding sex to a friendship in my experience sometimes works... sometimes doesn't... Sorry H.

I still don't feel like I have any real conclusion here, but writing about it certainly helps. I hope I've been coherent or at least someway successful in expressing myself But it's late and I'd better head to bed.

Boston

I liked your last post Ardam. Less heavy then the first, but gives me that warm fussy feeling.