Substandard traffic signs

MT

I live up north but travel a lot down south. One thing that always strikes me is just how much roads in the Republic have improved in recent years. So much so, that far from being the dangerous drives they used to be, most major routes there are now of a much higher standard than their northern equivalents. In contrast to this vast improvement in the quality of road infrastructure is the state of the south’s modern traffic signs. For some reason this area of traffic policy still lags behind standards in the UK and the rest of the EU. I mean, why is the Republic rolling out some of the best roads in Europe but still settling for substandard signage? Surely, an efficient transport network relies on providing good information to the driver as well as excellent surfaces, junctions, etc.

One of the most basic flaws has to be physical state of many signs there. Compared to my experience in Northern Ireland, a surprising number appear to be in a dilapidated state – often badly bent and twisted – or worse still, pointing or facing in the wrong direction. The reasons given in other threads for the poor condition of traffic signs down south are usually along the lines of lower standards of maintenance. But when given some thought this doesn’t make any sense. Why would councils and authorities there be any less inclined to maintain public structures than those in NI, England or anywhere else? After all, from what I’ve seen up here signs are rarely ever touched by the Roads Service after they’ve been erected for the first time. So, if it’s not maintenance, why is it that there’s such a difference in the durability of traffic signs between the two jurisdictions?

Well, from what I’ve gathered, the problem seems to stem from engineering oversights and the methods used to display the signs. Take the aluminium sheeting from which signs are cut. Having witnessed a comparison myself, the grade/thickness stipulated for UK signs is considerably more robust than that used for signs down there. Suffice to say, it’s possible to bend an Irish traffic sign with your bare hands but a sledgehammer would be needed for its UK counterpart. The results of this difference are there for all to see. The frequency of knocks and collisions with passing traffic differs little from one side of the border to the other but just look at how the respective signs degrade. With the exception of major accidents, those displayed on busy roads or junctions in NI have in many cases stood for decades without looking the worse for ware. In comparison, their equivalents in the Republic are left dented, dog-eared or worse in only a fraction of the time. And for the simple reason that the aluminium sheets used are too flimsy.

The other thing that gets me is the sheer number of signs that have been knocked around the wrong way. The fact that this rarely ever occurs up here suggests that the phenomenon has nothing to do with maintenance (public bodies here being as crap as those anywhere else when it comes upkeep). Like the flimsy plates, the problem again appears to come from differing methods of construction. Virtually all important signs (information, regulatory and warning) up here are now displayed on at least two poles. So when white van man drives into one, it simply can’t be swivelled around to face the wrong way. Compare this approach to policy in the Republic. With the exception of directional signage on the major routes, almost all other signs are displayed on only one pole. As the poles in question are circular and brackets are used to attach the signs it’s inevitable that so many end up facing/pointing the wrong way after a run in with a passing vehicle. On top of this, a sign placed on only one pole is in all just much less robust and so much more likely to find itself knocked over into the nearest hedge. Presumably the reason why a considerable numbers of signs down south have been left leaning over to one side.

The over all consequence of two seemingly minor differences at the manufacturing and construction stage is a considerable gap in the durability and robustness of traffic signs across the road network. In the long run any savings made from the reduced cost of thinner aluminium sheets and fewer steel poles is likely to be more than outweighed than the expense of more frequent repair and replacement. It’s all the more ironic that the authorities should be skimping on signs when the huge amounts being spent on new bridges and roads are taken into consideration. Simply put, why are signs not constructed to withstand wear and tear as robustly as the rest of the road network?


Should add here that I don’t think signs in the north are by any measure perfect just a good source of comparison close to hand. Furthermore, I’ve posted comments similar to this on the commuting forum but thought I’d get some input here at motors. After all, it’s road users the things are supposed to aid.

IrishRover

Good post. A few more road sign gripes of mine:

Temporary road signs are not removed. "Road works ahead", "Danger, dead slow, construction traffic", "Oil spil ahead" are signs I have seen left there several months and even years after the actual hazard has been removed. How can you ever know when they're telling the truth? This phenomenon always reminds me of the Aesop's Fable "The Boy Who Cried Wolf".

No advance signage for exits on motorways. For example: On the M50 and looking out for a sign for the Liffey Valley Shopping Centre? The only one you'll see is half way up the exit ramp. Same for all the other exits. You might spot a glimpse of the sign as you've gone by the exit. No good to you then of course.

No consistency of signage along routes. Eg: If you're in the city centre and you've got a destination like the airport or Dun Laoghaire Port, you might find a sign for one pointing your direction straight on. Then you come to another junction pointing right. Then you come to the next junction and nothing. The trail just goes cold. This kind of half assed signage can make navigation difficult enough for me, but the tourists must get great enjoyment out of it.
I can honestly say I find navigation absolutely vastly easier in any other country or city I've ever been in. Each junction will typically have signs like "airport" in one direction and "all other routes" for the other direction. Why we can't have that here I've never been able to figure out, but I've always assumed it's been something to do with this country being a standing joke.

AMurphy

Overall, I am of the opinion that the road signs are designed, placed and installed by folks who never have to look at or for a sign from the pov of someone who does not know the area. So they are generally placed too close and text too small to the intersection for a given speed, point in opposing and conflicting directions and on occasion are completely wrong, ie still pointing to a ferry that closed down years ago, etc.
And in the city, they can be anywhere from 2" off the ground to 2 stories up, unlit at night, etc.

Fortunately, the maps are excellent, so get a map and learn to navigate.

seamus

IrishRover wrote:

No advance signage for exits on motorways.

My gripe is the general poorness of the positioning of signage, not just on motorways. It's rare that a direction sign is placed with sufficient time for the person to change lane or decide their course of action, rather they assume you already know where you're going, the sign just backs you up.
Also, for example, speed bump signs. They put these right in front of the speed bump such that if you were relying on the sign, you probably wouldn't have time to react.

camarobill

MT wrote:

I live up north but travel a lot down south. One thing that always strikes me is just how much roads in the Republic have improved in recent years. So much so, that far from being the dangerous drives they used to be, most major routes there are now of a much higher standard than their northern equivalents. In contrast to this vast improvement in the quality of road infrastructure is the state of the south’s modern traffic signs. For some reason this area of traffic policy still lags behind standards in the UK and the rest of the EU. I mean, why is the Republic rolling out some of the best roads in Europe but still settling for substandard signage? Surely, an efficient transport network relies on providing good information to the driver as well as excellent surfaces, junctions, etc.

One of the most basic flaws has to be physical state of many signs there. Compared to my experience in Northern Ireland, a surprising number appear to be in a dilapidated state – often badly bent and twisted – or worse still, pointing or facing in the wrong direction. The reasons given in other threads for the poor condition of traffic signs down south are usually along the lines of lower standards of maintenance. But when given some thought this doesn’t make any sense. Why would councils and authorities there be any less inclined to maintain public structures than those in NI, England or anywhere else? After all, from what I’ve seen up here signs are rarely ever touched by the Roads Service after they’ve been erected for the first time. So, if it’s not maintenance, why is it that there’s such a difference in the durability of traffic signs between the two jurisdictions?

Well, from what I’ve gathered, the problem seems to stem from engineering oversights and the methods used to display the signs. Take the aluminium sheeting from which signs are cut. Having witnessed a comparison myself, the grade/thickness stipulated for UK signs is considerably more robust than that used for signs down there. Suffice to say, it’s possible to bend an Irish traffic sign with your bare hands but a sledgehammer would be needed for its UK counterpart. The results of this difference are there for all to see. The frequency of knocks and collisions with passing traffic differs little from one side of the border to the other but just look at how the respective signs degrade. With the exception of major accidents, those displayed on busy roads or junctions in NI have in many cases stood for decades without looking the worse for ware. In comparison, their equivalents in the Republic are left dented, dog-eared or worse in only a fraction of the time. And for the simple reason that the aluminium sheets used are too flimsy.

The other thing that gets me is the sheer number of signs that have been knocked around the wrong way. The fact that this rarely ever occurs up here suggests that the phenomenon has nothing to do with maintenance (public bodies here being as crap as those anywhere else when it comes upkeep). Like the flimsy plates, the problem again appears to come from differing methods of construction. Virtually all important signs (information, regulatory and warning) up here are now displayed on at least two poles. So when white van man drives into one, it simply can’t be swivelled around to face the wrong way. Compare this approach to policy in the Republic. With the exception of directional signage on the major routes, almost all other signs are displayed on only one pole. As the poles in question are circular and brackets are used to attach the signs it’s inevitable that so many end up facing/pointing the wrong way after a run in with a passing vehicle. On top of this, a sign placed on only one pole is in all just much less robust and so much more likely to find itself knocked over into the nearest hedge. Presumably the reason why a considerable numbers of signs down south have been left leaning over to one side.

The over all consequence of two seemingly minor differences at the manufacturing and construction stage is a considerable gap in the durability and robustness of traffic signs across the road network. In the long run any savings made from the reduced cost of thinner aluminium sheets and fewer steel poles is likely to be more than outweighed than the expense of more frequent repair and replacement. It’s all the more ironic that the authorities should be skimping on signs when the huge amounts being spent on new bridges and roads are taken into consideration. Simply put, why are signs not constructed to withstand wear and tear as robustly as the rest of the road network?


Should add here that I don’t think signs in the north are by any measure perfect just a good source of comparison close to hand. Furthermore, I’ve posted comments similar to this on the commuting forum but thought I’d get some input here at motors. After all, it’s road users the things are supposed to aid.

u got to b jokeing[ireland rollin out the best roads in europe]the roads here are a fcuking joke and not a patch on europe,a few new motorways thats about it,the roads up north ar much better,

mike65

I'm moving this to Commuting/Transport.

Mike.

murphaph

Wasn't this exact same post made quite recently in transport?

DubTony

mike65 wrote:

I'm moving this to Commuting/Transport.

Mike.

Take it back; it's already here

http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=211273

Tony

RuggieBear

getting deja vu there for a while.... :eek:

MT

Wasn't this exact same post made quite recently in transport?

A very similar post to this was made by me in this section recently. It didn't get much of a response so I thought I'd see if there'd be greater interest in the Motors section. Unfortunately, the things ended up back here, hence, the deja vu.

Er, Mike, if you're reading this, is there a chance of this thread finding its way back to motors. After all, surely the state of traffic signs is a relevant issue for car owners/drivers?