Report finds racism rife among gardai

GuanYin

If only this was an april fools.

An audit conducted by Ionann Management Consultants on behalf of the garda's Human Rights Office, has found prejudice towards foreign nationals and travellers among Gardai at all levels.

Several senior Gardai referred to "high level of criminality" amongst members of the nigerian and travelling communities without having any firm research or statistics to back this up.

It seems the need for more integration of Dublin and minority groups into the Gardai was recognised and the Garda commissioner accepts the 15 individual recommendations, including the identification of "institutional" racism and the protection of the human rights of its own staff, in the report and he intends implementing them.


Really this is not surprising, but what exactly does he intend to do? The mounting belief among many is that Gardai are above the law and get little more than a slap on the wrist for serious crimes. Racism? Pffft, who is going to call any of them on that?


Story here.

RuggieBear

and if a similar survey was conducted for irish society...we'd find pretty much the same conclusion...

MT

This is interesting and has some parallels with the policing experience in Northern Ireland and England. The claim that has been consistently made there is that the forces must be sectarian in the former and racist in the latter because their numbers are not representative of the religious/racial makeup or the areas. As the Republic becomes more diverse due to immigration similar charges will in all likely hood come to be leveled at the Gardai too.

The fundamental question is if a police force does not reflect minority groups in its membership to the same degree that they are present in society will said body be instinctively 'institutionally racist/sectarian'?

Does a disproportionately white force in England treat 'black/asian' crime in the same way as 'white' crime? Likewise, has a disproportionately protestant force dealt with 'catholic' crime in the same way as 'protestant' crime in NI? The view by the government responsible in both cases so far is that both policing bodies have failed in their objectivity.

So, as the non-white/minority ethnic population of the Republic grows can on the one hand Gardai recruitment keep pace with society's growing diversity and on the other police such a melting pot objectively?

I'd suggest that Garda commissioners should be casting an eye over the records of the RUC, constabularies in England and America forces on some guidance on possibly how not to do it.

MorningStar

Just to clarify. The report did not find the Garda racist just it had the potential to allow it. The media headlines aren't quite the same as the content of the report.

In saying that if you are a noticable minority you would probably feel put upon by the authorities. I heard a Nigerian guy giving out about the Garda but he mentioned the airport passport checks as a big problem. The Garda don't man these AFAIK.

It's also got to be noted that the Garada seem to have a minority Dubliner population (can never get the figures for this so it is personal observation). I find it hard to believe a person from a rual background can really have an understanding of an urban environment like Finglas.

The Garda may also have a point in targeting groups

http://www.irishprisons.ie/stats.asp#table8

Note the African and Asian figures.
The targeting may also be the cause of the figures and I am not sure if the detetion means guilt of crime.

Frank Grimes

Does anyone know if the report itself is online?

uberwolf

psi wrote:

Several senior Gardai referred to "high level of criminality" amongst members of the nigerian and travelling communities without having any firm research or statistics to back this up.

this intelligence was accepted in terms of other matters in the North (which this isn't about - before anyone is tempted!)
Surely The Gardaí are in the best position to assess who is responsible for criminality even though only convictions can be added to statistics that you require?

Your thread title is deliberately disingenous.

And the reports recommendations have been set a target implementation date as well, so they are on the road to sorting it out

RuggieBear

MT wrote:

I'd suggest that Garda commissioners should be casting an eye over the records of the RUC, constabularies in England and America forces on some guidance on possibly how not to do it.

But would they learn from the mistakes of others...IMO there is a trend in ireland to make the very same mistakes re: immigration, social welfare inititives, education etc, that other countries made years ago... and suffer the similar consequences despite the fact that we could have/should have seen it comming

GuanYin

MorningStar wrote:

Note the African and Asian figures.
The targeting may also be the cause of the figures and I am not sure if the detetion means guilt of crime.

Detention doesn't mean guilt of crime, it means anyone processsed and you have to be processed if you are put in a cell, even for holding (the giveaway is the "not recorded figure").

As for the figures?

To my eyes the figures for Africans and Asians don't look any higher than the Non-EU europeans and EU populations, given the guestimate amount of people. I'd also suspect that location (rural vs. city) of these minority populations would be a factor.

The proportion of non-nationals in the prisoner population on any given day is between 5-7%

Thats hardly damning of nigerians or asians given the diversity and number of our non-national population (which included US, British, Oceanic and EU).

landser

RuggieBear wrote:

But would they learn from the mistakes of others...IMO there is a trend in ireland to make the very same mistakes re: immigration, social welfare inititives, education etc, that other countries made years ago... and suffer the similar consequences despite the fact that we could have/should have seen it comming

would you like to enlighten us with some examples of our numerous previous mistakes, or would you prefer to just leave it at this sweeping generalisation?

GuanYin

uberwolf wrote:

Surely The Gardaí are in the best position to assess who is responsible for criminality even though only convictions can be added to statistics that you require?

Your thread title is deliberately disingenous.

Hold on a second. Its already been shown quite effectively in the abortion referendum and immigration referendum that "Professional Opinion" without any facts or statistics to back them up is absolutely no foundation to make an offical statement.

If you are a high level public official you simply cannot and should not make any sort of statement like this unless you can produce the figures to back them up.

Noone has ever put forward numbers to suggest that ANY ethnic group has a higher level of criminality per population in the country than any other (including natives), so to say I'm being disingenious or suggest that "the Gardai know best" is both naive and wrong.

Please show me figures to correct me if you can or perhaps show me wher ethe Gardai have made other such statements without any statistics or figures to back them up, and were shown to be correct.

landser

psi wrote:

Noone has ever put forward numbers to suggest that ANY ethnic group has a higher level of criminality per population in the country than any other (including natives), so to say I'm being disingenious or suggest that "the Gardai know best" is both naive and wrong.

Please show me figures to correct me if you can or perhaps show me wher ethe Gardai have made other such statements without any statistics or figures to back them up, and were shown to be correct.

pls show us the figures that prove that you are right. the assumptions made by you that the grada commissioner is wrong, is based on exactly the same premise that you criticise the garda commissioner for. you have no empirical proof that there isn't a high degree of criminality amongst the nigerian and travelling communities.

psi

psi wrote:

Please show me figures to correct me if you can or perhaps show me wher ethe Gardai have made other such statements without any statistics or figures to back them up, and were shown to be correct.

Do the Gardaí compile official statistics broken down as to the racial background of the crime perpetrators?
If not all we have to go on is their own anecdotal record which would have to be taken on its merit.

Heres the article in full for those who havent signed up with unison

Racism rife among gardai, report finds


A DAMNING verdict of institutional racism against Nigerians and Travellers amongst gardai has emerged in a human rights 'audit' commissioned by the force itself.

Officers and members across the board expressed negative views about some communities, in particular Travellers and the Nigerian communities, with several senior officers pointing to a "high level of criminality" amongst members of these two communities without having any firm research or statistics to back this up.

Gardai are accused of regularly failing to help members of black communities who report crimes or who ask for help, and of making "continual" car stops and passport checks against them. While immigration officers "tend to think all Nigerians had several passports and assume fraud is taking place".

"You get attention from the garda depending on where they think you are from. They stereotype people. It is a crime to be a Nigerian," one community member surveyed said.

One garda said it was "very hard" to have an unbiased opinion of foreign nationals who conduct welfare scams, such as the Algerians and Nigerians, commenting: "Within these groups the fraudsters are a majority not a minority. This costs the taxpayer €35m a year but it's not politically correct to say this."

The audit was conducted by Ionann Management Consultants on behalf of the garda's Human Rights Office.

It comes on the back of human rights concerns raised in the report, including the case of Dean Lyons, wrongly accused of the Grangegorman murders; the garda handling of the Paul Ward case and the fatal Abbeylara siege.

The report said gardai needed to learn more about new ethnic communities in order to help to promote good community relations in general, protect the victims of racist abuse or attack and to respect the rights of suspects from these communities.

Meanwhile, many senior gardai feel the force is currently not "representative of Irish society today" and are strongly agreed on the need to recruit a more diverse workforce.

Traditionally the organisation had recruited people from country backgrounds but now more are being recruited from Dublin. The next stage was to recruit from minority communities, gardai themselves believe.

The Garda Commissioner Noel Conroy said he fully accepts the 15 individual recommendations, including the identification of "institutional" racism and the protection of the human rights of its own staff, in the report and he intends implementing them.

Nicola Anderson

uberwolf

psi wrote:

Please show me figures to correct me if you can or perhaps show me wher ethe Gardai have made other such statements without any statistics or figures to back them up, and were shown to be correct.

You misinterpret me.

I believe your thread title to be disingenous because you're intrepreting the report when you say 'racist', rather than what I've read saying 'can lead to institutional racism' - which is removed from actually being the case.

SEPERATELY

I'm also saying that the Gardaí should be able to sue their experience in making assessments - and that no statements of the nature you say were publically made - they were in response to an internal report - and not made on behalf of their postion but as individuals.

Villain

Innocent until proven guilty, unless your a traveller, Nigerian or republican.

Ah yes the Gardai

MorningStar

psi wrote:

Detention doesn't mean guilt of crime, it means anyone processsed and you have to be processed if you are put in a cell, even for holding (the giveaway is the "not recorded figure").

As for the figures?

To my eyes the figures for Africans and Asians don't look any higher than the Non-EU europeans and EU populations, given the guestimate amount of people. I'd also suspect that location (rural vs. city) of these minority populations would be a factor.



Thats hardly damning of nigerians or asians given the diversity and number of our non-national population (which included US, British, Oceanic and EU).

Just to clarify on the figures. They are prison detentions as opposed to Garda station detentions. If there is a higher proportion in detention than in the general population it is definitly suspect.
It's worth noting. Being Irish I know our culture it is generally a view that if you can get around the system you should. That applies to making insurance claims, parking/speeding fines and taxes. It doesn't matter what is right or not.

From the Nigerian people I have met socially I don't see their view as much different from ours. The only difference is we have got used to not even trying to manipulate certain things. Being new to our system some see holes we don't mess with but they will. It's not a a race thing it's a cultural thing. Most post colonial cultures have the same disrespect for laws and systems we just happen to be a bit further along culturally.
The dangerous thing is the poorer social economic groups are the people more likely to be effected by the influx of a immigrants. These are also the people who traditionally are accused of cheating the system and criminality. They are also the ones most likely to be effected by imigration and that leads them to be raceist.

GuanYin

landser wrote:

pls show us the figures that prove that you are right. the assumptions made by you that the grada commissioner is wrong, is based on exactly the same premise that you criticise the garda commissioner for. you have no empirical proof that there isn't a high degree of criminality amongst the nigerian and travelling communities.

Ahh but I'm not making a case either way. I'm saying that until there are figures to support either side published, then there is no proof or evidence so high ranking public figures should not be making statements.

This was acknowledged by the District and Circuit Courts here where several Justices were repremanded and formally apologised for comments made against the non-national communities. They acknowledged that there was no evidence to suggest that the criminality of non-nationals was proportionately higher than anyone else and should not be making statements until such evidence is published.

It could well be true, but if you can't back it up, you don't make a statement from a position that will be taken as "official".

Earthman wrote:

Do the Gardaí compile official statistics broken down as to the racial background of the crime perpetrators?
If not all we have to go on is their own anecdotal record which would have to be taken on its merit.

The figures exist so if its true why not publish them? There has been criticism of highcourt judges before now on this issue. In these cases apologies have been made and faces have reddened. These people have access to such figures, so if its true, why would they retract and apologise.

References on Judge apologies
[1]
[2]

BuffyBot

An audit conducted by Ionann Management Consultants on behalf of the garda's Human Rights Office, has found prejudice towards foreign nationals and travellers among Gardai at all levels.

It's sad, but unsurprising enough. There's a thread on the work forum where some potential Garda recruits made some denegrating comments towards some of the groups mentioned in this report - so if that's the state of the potential Gardai, one can only wonder at what attitudes some of the serving officers carry.

I feel for the officers who do their job, and do it well and then get lumped in with people who are no credit to the force.

I suppose judges, though they are supposed to be impartial are like many of the rest of us, they form views based on what they see.
Thats why defendents are told to put their "best dress" on when in court.

Many judges speak out and the un pc nature of what that judge spoke out on forced him to backtrack.I'd imagine he still has the same view though.

Wasnt there a judge in the Midlands somewhere recently that came to verbal fisticuffs with McDowell with regard to them[The judge] being so fed up of see'ing a particular type of crime that he would be imposing a mandatory jail sentence?

Any solicitor at a local court will tell you also which judge it's best to hear particular types of cases under, the same is true right up through to the higher courts and is all indicative anecdotally of them having formed non neutral opinions which they shouldnt have.
That could apply to some Gardaí also.

uberwolf

I should say Psi - the I.T article I was working from was an awful lot softer than the Indo article - which corroborates most of what you say.

GuanYin

Earthman wrote:

I suppose judges, though they are supposed to be impartial are like many of the rest of us, they form views based on what they see..

The Gardai are supposed to be impartial too, they are there to uphold the law, not to take sides.

Having opinions and views is their right, allowing them to interfere with their work isn't.

uberwolf wrote:

I should say Psi - the I.T article I was working from was an awful lot softer than the Indo article - which corroborates most of what you say.

Is that a vague and subtle way of apologising/retracting your accusations earlier?

uberwolf

psi wrote:

Is that a vague and subtle way of apologising/retracting your accusations earlier?

it's as good as you're getting - if you can read the I.T article funny how different a picture it paints, a lot less sensationalist.

Memnoch

in my view this just reflects the common sentiment in ireland. I'd say that the racism is part of all facets of irish society and at all levels.

Off course there is the unintelligent pointless racism, where people call you names etc.

And then there is the more subtle deeply impacting discrimination.

Tell why is it okay to discriminate against someone based on their place of birth, which is something beyond their control.
But it's not okay to discriminate against someone based on their color, which is also something that is a feature of them beyond their control.

MorningStar

[/QUOTE]An audit conducted by Ionann Management Consultants on behalf of the garda's Human Rights Office, has found prejudice towards foreign nationals and travellers among Gardai at all levels.[/QUOTE]

BuffyBot wrote:

It's sad, but unsurprising enough. There's a thread on the work forum where some potential Garda recruits made some denegrating comments towards some of the groups mentioned in this report - so if that's the state of the potential Gardai, one can only wonder at what attitudes some of the serving officers carry. .

I heard kids talk on newstalk yesterday. A class with Travelers, Nigerian, Irish, etc... Kids are relatively innocent I would take it but I was shocked. The kids were pretty much happy with the area and each other with a general exception. Many of the kids of different races said bad things about the traveler kids. Things like it's a nice school but the traveler kids, the traveler kids mess up the place and steal, the travelr kids gang up on us and attack us. This would really make you wonder about the future and how intigration is not working for our oldest minority.

landser

psi wrote:

Ahh but I'm not making a case either way. I'm saying that until there are figures to support either side published, then there is no proof or evidence so high ranking public figures should not be making statements.

So, therefore, your argument is limited to the need for empirical proof being required before any such statement is made; fair enough. although, he did not make a public statement afaik.

Anecdotally, however, there would seem to be suggestions made even within the Nigerian community itself that a higher than average proportion of the nigerians coming here have criminal backgrounds. this was brought up on another thread recently and reference was made to comments made by a nigerian doctor. THis, however, is a subject for a different thread.

landser

[/QUOTE] The kids were pretty much happy with the area and each other with a general exception. Many of the kids of different races said bad things about the traveler kids. Things like it's a nice school but the traveler kids, the traveler kids mess up the place and steal, the travelr kids gang up on us and attack us. This would really make you wonder about the future and how intigration is not working for our oldest minority.[/QUOTE]

If this is their experience at the hands of traveller kids, how can it be discriminatory???? What precisely does it make you "wonder" about the future???

GuanYin

For those of you interested, there report is online here .

As for sensationalism. Uberwold, I'd like your comments on Chapter 7, (page 94 onwards) if you get a chance.

The report seems damning enough to me.

GuanYin

landser wrote:

So, therefore, your argument is limited to the need for empirical proof being required before any such statement is made; fair enough. although, he did not make a public statement afaik.

Anecdotally, however, there would seem to be suggestions made even within the Nigerian community itself that a higher than average proportion of the nigerians coming here have criminal backgrounds. this was brought up on another thread recently and reference was made to comments made by a nigerian doctor. THis, however, is a subject for a different thread.

Anecdotally, many people suggest that residence of Ballymun, Coolock and Tallaght are all drug addled criminals.

In reality, this isn't the case.

The biggest problem with anecdotal evidence is that it only takes what you experience with respect to your assumption into account. With a narrow enough mind and a biggoted enough attitude you could probably anecdotallly blame non-nationals for every problem this country has.

MorningStar

landser wrote:

If this is their experience at the hands of traveller kids, how can it be discriminatory???? What precisely does it make you "wonder" about the future???

I never said it was discrimination. In fact it could be taken as a justifiable reason to do so if you are that way inclined. It makes me wonder how the Travelers are going to get along with people in the future. If the kids have this impression and experience now they will never live together peacefully. If this is what the kids are experencing than suitable integration is not happening . No group of kids should be allowed behave baddly to another group or individual.

tim3115

Great title psi, never fail to make me laugh

MorningStar

psi wrote:

Anecdotally, many people suggest that residence of Ballymun, Coolock and Tallaght are all drug addled criminals.

In reality, this isn't the case.

The biggest problem with anecdotal evidence is that it only takes what you experience with respect to your assumption into account. With a narrow enough mind and a biggoted enough attitude you could probably anecdotallly blame non-nationals for every problem this country has.

I don't think it is anecdotal. Radio and newspaper reports have commonly mentioned drug black spots. The areas you mentioned certainly have higher drug problems than other areas. I have been personally try to track down details mentioned about 4 specific areas in Dublin where apparently 90% of Dublin convicts come from.

World wide it is known poorer areas sufferer from many problems other areas don't. Ireland isn't magically immune to this effect. Go to any search engine and put in "poverty crime eduaction drug abuse" . Generally poor areas have poorly educated people, more drug addictes, more criminals etc...

Your views are based on opinion too if you can find any studies showing that the wealth in your immidate environment makes no difference I will be really surprised. Your views are just as narrow minded to think these areas have a bad name for no reason. I am not saying it's right to tarnish people just because they come from some area but it's not without reason.