Report finds racism rife among gardai

landser

MorningStar wrote:

I never said it was discrimination. In fact it could be taken as a justifiable reason to do so if you are that way inclined. It makes me wonder how the Travelers are going to get along with people in the future. If the kids have this impression and experience now they will never live together peacefully. If this is what the kids are experencing than suitable integration is not happening . No group of kids should be allowed behave baddly to another group or individual.

well, if anyone is to blame for the lack of intergration in this instance, i'd hazard a guess that it's the traveller kids. Maybe if they stopped thieving from, and beating up, the other kids, then those kids would be more accepting of them.

egan007

My house mate (beligan) experiences this on a regular basis
He has had guards tell him go home, that this is belgian bas*ard a waster and should not be in ireland. This opinion based on talking to him for about 30 seconds.
He has had his car taken off him (beligian plates) when his boss rang the guards they said "Oh the lithuanian guy"
I'm just dying to be in teh car with him when it happens again -Next week
It's turning into Guarda Harassment

landser

psi wrote:

Anecdotally, many people suggest that residence of Ballymun, Coolock and Tallaght are all drug addled criminals.

In reality, this isn't the case.

The biggest problem with anecdotal evidence is that it only takes what you experience with respect to your assumption into account. With a narrow enough mind and a biggoted enough attitude you could probably anecdotallly blame non-nationals for every problem this country has.

You miss my point. My point was that, yes, it would appear that what the Gda Commissioner said may have been based on anecdotal evidence, i.e., inter alia, evidence collatted from gardai on the beat; this does not mean that what the Commissioner said was actually wrong. What he did was give an opinion, in a non-public forum, based on his experinces as passed to him via his subordinates. This opinion would seem to be supported by opinions expressed by members of the Nigerian community themselves. The point was an aside, not a retort.

egan007

Now he's having a go at the birds

MorningStar

landser wrote:

well, if anyone is to blame for the lack of intergration in this instance, i'd hazard a guess that it's the traveller kids. Maybe if they stopped thieving from, and beating up, the other kids, then those kids would be more accepting of them.

Sure blame a 6 year old old for the future problems as opposed to a government orgainsation that is meant to promote and help integration. :rolleyes:
If you had ever been disriminated you might realise what it feels like. A frustrated child with parents who are also suspicious is not going to react correctly. There needs to be assitance. Your view is blame a child for not being able to add as opposed to the teacher.

seamus

Once again, we get the experience -v- evidence debate, incorporating word-twisting.

There's no denying that the Gardai who said what they did, said so with some sort of convictions about it. Talk to any tech support person, and they'll tell you "Anyone who's not tech support or Sys Admin is an idiot".

Parallels can be drawn here. Most of the time, the only users that tech support deal with are the ones who've done something stupid. Similarly Gardai by and large will only be dealing with people who break the law, or who otherwise get into trouble. Obviously their view is going to be skewed.

You'll find that most Gardai, outside of their peers and community tend to be very cynical and wary of people. If the only Nigerians you have dealings with day-to-day are troublemakers, then clearly you're going to think that most Nigerians are troublemakers. Ditto for people from Tallaght, people from Limerick, etc etc.

There's no denying that poverty breeds crime. Many working-class areas are known for having a higher crime rate. It's neither discriminatory nor unfair, it's fact. Similarly, most refugees and/or immigrants from countries like Nigeria are poor, and not being immune to this, a larger proprotion of these people will engage in criminal activity.

The problem, as pointed out, is integration. When people see other people as "Black", "Nigerian", etc, they are forming and enforcing very definite stereotypes in their head, where they should be considering each person as just another person as part of the whole.

landser

MorningStar wrote:

Sure blame a 6 year old old for the future problems as opposed to a government orgainsation that is meant to promote and help integration. :rolleyes:
If you had ever been disriminated you might realise what it feels like. A frustrated child with parents who are also suspicious is not going to react correctly. There needs to be assitance. Your view is blame a child for not being able to add as opposed to the teacher.

I'm not blaming a six year old for future problems: read my post. I'm blaming them for the fact that the other kids don't like them. By you reasoning, if a traveller kid beats up my child, i should write an angry letter to Bertie???

and as fir the, "if you had ever been discriminated....." tripe, how do you know that I haven't?? Or do you think that everyone who disagrees with you is some form of middle/upper class uber-supremist??

as for the rest of the post, i don;t know where that came from or, frankly, what a "frustarted child with parents who are also suspiscious " is like, or indeed what they are?

GuanYin

MorningStar wrote:

I don't think it is anecdotal. Radio and newspaper reports have commonly mentioned drug black spots.

Yes, but did you real what I posted. The word "all" is the important one.

The proportion of criminals (drug or otherwise) for the population doesn't quite match the anecdotal evidence that you would hear regarding these areas.

morningstar wrote:

Your views are based on opinion too if you can find any studies showing that the wealth in your immidate environment makes no difference I will be really surprised.

Where did I claim this? Please reference the post.

morningstar wrote:

Your views are just as narrow minded to think these areas have a bad name for no reason. I am not saying it's right to tarnish people just because they come from some area but it's not without reason.

Where did I say this?
Please show me, I'm quite certain you didn't bother to read my post properly.

landser wrote:

You miss my point. My point was that, yes, it would appear that what the Gda Commissioner said may have been based on anecdotal evidence

Erm, can you show me what you're talking about here. What did the Garda Commissoner say? Can you show me a quote?

landser wrote:

, i.e., inter alia, evidence collatted from gardai on the beat; this does not mean that what the Commissioner said was actually wrong. What he did was give an opinion, in a non-public forum, based on his experinces as passed to him via his subordinates. This opinion would seem to be supported by opinions expressed by members of the Nigerian community themselves. The point was an aside, not a retort.

No he didn't.

Jesus, will you actually read the newspaper reports and the report itself before you make stupid statements.

Senior level gardai made the comments.

The report found them to be "out of touch" with the community (re. this and othr issues) and the Garda commissioner acknowledged and accepted the findings of the report.

MorningStar

egan007 wrote:

My house mate (beligan) experiences this on a regular basis
He has had guards tell him go home, that this is belgian bas*ard a waster and should not be in ireland. This opinion based on talking to him for about 30 seconds.
He has had his car taken off him (beligian plates) when his boss rang the guards they said "Oh the lithuanian guy"
I'm just dying to be in teh car with him when it happens again -Next week
It's turning into Guarda Harassment

What was their stated reason for them impounding the car? They have to state some reason, had he paid his irish road tax? (Ex-girlfriend from France got her car impounded for this reason)
Did he complian about the garda for derogorative comments? If he didn't more fool him. I did when I was called a "hairy hippy" and as he had a history he was confined to desk duties for a month.
Idiots are in all walks of life

GuanYin

seamus wrote:

Once again, we get the experience -v- evidence debate, incorporating word-twisting.

There's no denying that the Gardai who said what they did, said so with some sort of convictions about it..

Erm, the point is, that the Gardai who made the comments, have little dealings with the communities. So they were deemed to have little experience or knowledge to make the accusations.

But all in all, well put Seamus.

landser

psi wrote:

Erm, can you show me what you're talking about here. What did the Garda Commissoner say? Can you show me a quote?



No he didn't.

Jesus, will you actually read the newspaper reports and the report itself before you make stupid statements.

Senior level gardai made the comments.

The report found them to be "out of touch" with the community (re. this and othr issues) and the Garda commissioner acknowledged and accepted the findings of the report.

when i said commissioner i should've said senior garda... an error. keep your f**king hair on pal

GuanYin

landser wrote:

when i said commissioner i should've said senior garda... an error. keep your f**king hair on pal

I will when youget your facts straight (you madeteh mistake twice in your post).

It sorta makes a big difference seeing as the GC acknowledged the failings of the senior gardai in making those statements.

MorningStar

psi wrote:

Yes, but did you real what I posted. The word "all" is the important one.

The proportion of criminals (drug or otherwise) for the population doesn't quite match the anecdotal evidence that you would hear regarding these areas.
.

Nobody said "all" people in the areas are criminals but you and by putting "suggest" negates the "all" anyway. In common verbal conversation use of words is not as precise as a written. Internet chat should be viewed as conversation and raging about symantics is a bit pointless as everybody can easily make mistakes.

psi wrote:

Where did I claim this? Please reference the post.

Where did I say this?
Please show me, I'm quite certain you didn't bother to read my post properly.
.

You argued your point twice in the same post about one comment. I generally take this as some kind of rage. Again it's a bit of symantics. I haven't claimed you said anything. I called your view narrow minded for calling another persons view biggoted and narrow minded. Neither of you have figures so it's opinion to shout anothers point down which is narrow minded. How do you know better? I don't think anybody has claimed all Nigerians or any other race is purly criminal on this post.

As you posted the same point twice why not read your own posts before you post

landser

psi wrote:

I will when youget your facts straight (you madeteh mistake twice in your post).

It sorta makes a big difference seeing as the GC acknowledged the failings of the senior gardai in making those statements.

OK, now move beyond the pedantry

egan007

Yeah they used the car tax excuse but never asked him how long he was in the country until after the 5 days they kept the car......he told them 3 months to which they replied - OH!
I told him to report that Guard for the comments, but he said the same thing as me......report a guard to ......Oh yeah a Guard......

MorningStar

landser wrote:

I'm not blaming a six year old for future problems: read my post. I'm blaming them for the fact that the other kids don't like them. By you reasoning, if a traveller kid beats up my child, i should write an angry letter to Bertie???

and as fir the, "if you had ever been discriminated....." tripe, how do you know that I haven't?? Or do you think that everyone who disagrees with you is some form of middle/upper class uber-supremist??

as for the rest of the post, i don;t know where that came from or, frankly, what a "frustarted child with parents who are also suspiscious " is like, or indeed what they are?

No my logic is not write a letter to Berti. Talk to the teacher, teacher addresses the problem if not able they talk to the parents. If the problem is culturally sensitive the teacher is meant to get assistance. The specially trained assitance is meant to be able to address such problems. To let the chilldren's statements go out on the radio is definitily insensitive would you not agree?
Ok I don't know if you have ever been disrciminated or not fair point. I didn't mean to insult.
Traveler parents are very suspecious of the seatled community due to the history. If you don't know why they are suspicious go find out, they have some valid reasons as we do of them.
If a childs clothes and cleanliness is diffirent to those around him they will probably be made fun of. This will frustrate a child into anger. The children of similarly environment naturally bond. Bingo, group of bullies.
When suspecious parents and frustrated child get together the child is unlikely going to be chasticed for what the parents may see as defense.
I assumed people would understand some basic human nature and problems with the issue. You did blame the traveler children for their behaviour. I have now given you some reasoning about the problem and how the children are not quite in control of how they react and behaviour. If you don't agree fine but think about it some before assuming anything is all I ask.

GuanYin

MorningStar wrote:

Nobody said "all" people in the areas are criminals but you and by putting "suggest" negates the "all" anyway. In common verbal conversation use of words is not as precise as a written. Internet chat should be viewed as conversation and raging about symantics is a bit pointless as everybody can easily make mistakes.

No, I alluded to the fact that people avoid areas or debase them on the assumption that the people there are criminals. Very rarely (in my experience) do you get people weighing up the odds of how likely or unlikely they are to encounter one of the criminals who are most likely in the minority overthe ordinary decent citizen.

"anecdotally many people suggest the residents are all drug addled criminals"

How does the word suggest negate anything?

You argued your point twice in the same post about one comment. I generally take this as some kind of rage. Again it's a bit of symantics. I haven't claimed you said anything. I called your view narrow minded for calling another persons view biggoted and narrow minded. Neither of you have figures so it's opinion to shout anothers point down which is narrow minded. How do you know better? I don't think anybody has claimed all Nigerians or any other race is purly criminal on this post.

I made the point twice because you mis-represented me twice. You did it there again when I said I called someones view biggoted and narrowminded.

Can yo please show me where I refered to anyones view as biggoted and narrowminded and show me who the person was?

If you want to suggest I'm "in a rage" please go ahead, it doesn't change the facts.

The Senior gardai put forward opinins that had no evidence to back them up. The report highlighted this and the GC, in accepting the points in the report, acknowledged the senior gardai were wrong to make these comments.

As you posted the same point twice why not read your own posts before you post

I did, it was done purposely.

MorningStar

egan007 wrote:

Yeah they used the car tax excuse but never asked him how long he was in the country until after the 5 days they kept the car......he told them 3 months to which they replied - OH!
I told him to report that Guard for the comments, but he said the same thing as me......report a guard to ......Oh yeah a Guard......

Not sure on the tax laws but if you are resident I think there is a case for the tax. I know if they take your car off you without a valid reason they will be reprimanded. File a complaint. I think there is a Garda ombudsman now so you don't need to complain to a Garda about a Garda (not great at spelling myself or irish but it's defo not guard small peev). Send it in in writing and that's it it can't be ignored and it is really his social reponsibility as a resident. You can't complain if you ignore the problem.

landser

MorningStar wrote:

Traveler parents are very suspecious of the seatled community due to the history. If you don't know why they are suspicious go find out, they have some valid reasons as we do of them.
If a childs clothes and cleanliness is diffirent to those around him they will probably be made fun of. This will frustrate a child into anger. The children of similarly environment naturally bond. Bingo, group of bullies.
When suspecious parents and frustrated child get together the child is unlikely going to be chasticed for what the parents may see as defense.
I assumed people would understand some basic human nature and problems with the issue. You did blame the traveler children for their behaviour. I have now given you some reasoning about the problem and how the children are not quite in control of how they react and behaviour. If you don't agree fine but think about it some before assuming anything is all I ask.

How do you know i have never given this matter any thought. Your post suggests that just because i don't agree with what you say, that I am in some way ignorant of the situation. Believe me, i give the traveller communbity a lot of thought.

what you say above is, no doubt, well meant, but is wholly biased in favour of the travellers and seems to be based wholly on unfounded assumptions. I have not made any assumptions, i am giving possible reasons as to the reaction to the traveller kids. If they are stealing and bullying then that is probably why the kids don't like them. you assume that the stealing and bullying is a reaction to the way the travellers are treated, and not that the dislike for the travellers is a reaction to their actions.

you have also assumed that the only reason they bully the other children is because they are frustrated. you also assume that they are being discrimninated against when you say "If a childs clothes and cleanliness is diffirent to those around him they will probably be made fun of". Maybe, the traveller kids in question are just little bastards.... it's as likely as your theory.

I'm also a bit concerned by your theory that groups of kids who bond become immediate bullies.

BTW, given what you say re traveller parents, can a settled parent who is suspiscious of travellers similarly be exonerated from blame if his kid hits a traveller?

MorningStar

psi wrote:

No, I alluded to the fact that people avoid areas or debase them on the assumption that the people there are criminals. Very rarely (in my experience) do you get people weighing up the odds of how likely or unlikely they are to encounter one of the criminals who are most likely in the minority overthe ordinary decent citizen.

"anecdotally many people suggest the residents are all drug addled criminals"

How does the word suggest negate anything?


I made the point twice because you mis-represented me twice. You did it there again when I said I called someones view biggoted and narrowminded.

Can yo please show me where I refered to anyones view as biggoted and narrowminded and show me who the person was?

If you want to suggest I'm "in a rage" please go ahead, it doesn't change the facts.

The Senior gardai put forward opinins that had no evidence to back them up. The report highlighted this and the GC, in accepting the points in the report, acknowledged the senior gardai were wrong to make these comments.

I did, it was done purposely.

You made up an anecdotal view on other peoples anecdotal view than ranted about it it being narrow minded. Your right I shouldn't have bothered about commenting. :cool:

Read my first post about the article and you will see my views on the Gardai situation.

uberwolf

MorningStar wrote:

You made up an anecdotal view on other peoples anecdotal view than ranted about it it being narrow minded. Your right I shouldn't have bothered about commenting. :cool:

Read my first post about the article and you will see my views on the Gardai situation.

Could you return to arguing/debating/discussing the topic rather than getting your hair in a mess.

If you've nothing to add beyond your first post then don't add.

GuanYin

MorningStar wrote:

You made up an anecdotal view on other peoples anecdotal view than ranted about it it being narrow minded. Your right I shouldn't have bothered about commenting. :cool:

No I didn't, you're mis-representing me again (thast 4 times now) so I will clarify.

My exact phrase was:
"With a narrow enough mind and a biggoted enough attitude you could probably anecdotallly blame non-nationals for every problem this country has."

This isn't actually commenting on or referencing anyone elses view.

So, what youre saying is, you can't back up your post.
Didn't think so.

MorningStar

landser wrote:

How do you know i have never given this matter any thought. Your post suggests that just because i don't agree with what you say, that I am in some way ignorant of the situation. Believe me, i give the traveller communbity a lot of thought.

what you say above is, no doubt, well meant, but is wholly biased in favour of the travellers and seems to be based wholly on unfounded assumptions. I have not made any assumptions, i am giving possible reasons as to the reaction to the traveller kids. If they are stealing and bullying then that is probably why the kids don't like them. you assume that the stealing and bullying is a reaction to the way the travellers are treated, and not that the dislike for the travellers is a reaction to their actions.

you have also assumed that the only reason they bully the other children is because they are frustrated. you also assume that they are being discrimninated against when you say "If a childs clothes and cleanliness is diffirent to those around him they will probably be made fun of". Maybe, the traveller kids in question are just little bastards.... it's as likely as your theory.

I'm also a bit concerned by your theory that groups of kids who bond become immediate bullies.

BTW, given what you say re traveller parents, can a settled parent who is suspiscious of travellers similarly be exonerated from blame if his kid hits a traveller?

OK you obviously can't take criticism very well. In a discussion over the internet some assumptions have to be made. They aren't all personal insults direct at anybody.
If any child steals at 6 or acts uncivilised it is a matter of environment and up bringing. If you think a child can be just written off as a "little bastard" can you let me know what age do you write them off? What age does culpability start in your eyes?
I never questioned the childrens' dislike for the traveller kids. I would dislike them too!
What I did say is the services are failing everybody by not intergrating the children properly. That is my point
As for my unfounded assumption they are based on education. I don't need to know the personal situations I know psychology. I can also explain to you what problems psycopath and sociopathy have too. I don't think this gives me a the truth over you but I herad the show and you didn't. Are you not just basing your opinion on my desciption?
I gave you a simplistic view and an explanantion. You don't have to believe it.

MorningStar

uberwolf wrote:

Could you return to arguing/debating/discussing the topic rather than getting your hair in a mess.

If you've nothing to add beyond your first post then don't add.

That's what I was trying to do. The debate on Garadi racism does however spill in to the whole race situation in Ireland. I have added more to the debate most noticable about how intigration isn't working with reference to children. The heading on the thread is actually inacurate from the start, which seems to be missed too. People sometimes overlook all that is being said so I suggested a re-read.

psi wrote:

This isn't actually commenting on or referencing anyone elses view.

So, what youre saying is, you can't back up your post.
Didn't think so.

I see you point and it may have been missed the true meaning of a double hipothetical, so your right. Adding "I don't think so" is about one of the most chidish comments I have heard in a long time. By misreading your post still does not negate the meaning of my posts either.

GuanYin

MorningStar wrote:

I see you point and it may have been missed the true meaning of a double hipothetical, so your right. Adding "I don't think so" is about one of the most chidish comments I have heard in a long time. By misreading your post still does not negate the meaning of my posts either.

So in effect then you're calling me narrowminded and biggoted?

I hope not, because if you admit you mis-read my statement and then stand by your own posts, its amountingto personally insulting me.

Thats against the forum rules, ya see.

I think calling me childish might count there too.

But all in all, I'm glad you take my point on board about you not reading posts properly before replying.

MorningStar

psi wrote:

So in effect then you're calling me narrowminded and biggoted?

I hope not, because if you admit you mis-read my statement and then stand by your own posts, its amountingto personally insulting me.

Thats against the forum rules, ya see.

I think calling me childish might count there too.

But all in all, I'm glad you take my point on board about you not reading posts properly before replying.

What you said was childish. The way you are arguing now about what has been said is also childish when I admitted my mistake. Your title on this thread is also inacurate.
The manner in which you argued an assumed view on people about an assumed view and then commented on is also a poor method of arguement. I am not going to argue about it I have admitted a mistake and suggest we move on. If you don't want to move on the point I suggest you create another thread about how I missed a baddly made point with a nice fair title "PSI is great and MorningStar is an idiot"

I am not calling your opinion childish which would be a personal insult I am calling your actions which is observation and there is a difference. If you take this as an insult I can't help that. AS I argued the view was biggoted and it was not your view then I am not calling you biggoted either.

I said PEOPLE don't read every comment properly. You are assuming it was just me there is something to be said about stone throwing and inocences.

sceptre

Right, lay off it. MorningStar, you've already received one warning about staying on topic, this is your second and final one and I'll extend that as a first to everyone else thinking of posting on the topic. Lay off the pseudo- or real-insults as the rest of us don't really need to see them.

Oh and I'm changing the forum topic to the headline in the Irish Indo referenced in the first post if that makes anyone any happier (I doubt it, not even the grammar police*). Complain to the Indo if you feel like it, keep it on topic here.


*Actually I'm rearranging the headline to read "Report finds Report finds racism rife among gardai" rather than "Racism rife among gardai, report finds". It would just hurt my sensibilities too much to ingulge in journogrammar

MadsL

My house mate (beligan) experiences this on a regular basis....

....He has had his car taken off him (beligian plates) when his boss rang the guards they said "Oh the lithuanian guy"

At the risk of being anecdotal, this also happened to a friend of mine, Romanian - married to Irish girl. Fully insured and taxed. Car belonged to a friend, guard impounded the car on suspicion of it being stolen. Was impounded overnight (and they left the lights on and refused him a jump start once everything was sorted out)

The wife's mother asked the guard if he would have done the same if she had been driving - 'probably not' she was told.

pork99

I've known a few foreigners working here who have told me that they find the Gardai very decent and honest compared to the police in their own countries.

However given that racist attitudes exist in the population that the Gardai are recruited from it's inevitable that you will have some rascist Gardai. Addressing these attitudes needs to be part of Garda training but I'm sure this doesn't happen because it's not recognised as a problem.

Also any training done to address this shouldn't be based on "touchy-feely p.c." attitudes, which cops like most people have nothing but contempt for, but should focus on the fact that rascist attitudes can get in the way of providing effective policing.

MG

MorningStar wrote:

Not sure on the tax laws but if you are resident I think there is a case for the tax.

I don't think 3 months is long enough to qualify as resident and as the poster said, they didn't even bother asking him.

Away from the Gardai, I know someone from another "Old Europe" EU country who experiences a small amount of what I call latent racism. This takes the form of slightly unfavourable treatment such as impolite treatment. This generally improves noticably when it is discovered that they are not Eastern European but from an "old Europe" country.

However, this type of discrimination exists in all countries. I worked abroad a few years ago with two main nationalities. These nationalities looked after themselves and the other nationalities got a raw deal.

But the same thing happens everywhere. Someone gets preferential treatment because of where they or from, what school they went to etc. It's crap but that's life unfortunately.