A discussion on citizenship

Sleepy

cdebru wrote:

what nationality do you consider people from the six counties to be

Northern Irish, or a citizen of the United Kingdom.

Sleepy

cdebru wrote:

It is the entitlement and birthright of every person born in the island of Ireland, which includes its islands and seas, to be part of the Irish nation. That is also the entitlement of all persons otherwise qualified in accordance with law to be citizens of Ireland. Furthermore, the Irish nation cherishes its special affinity with people of Irish ancestry living abroad who share its cultural identity and heritage

article 2

And what has that to do with the desires of any of the parties currently sitting in government?

cdebru

Sleepy wrote:

Northern Irish, or a citizen of the United Kingdom.

united kingdom is not a nationality

cdebru

Sleepy wrote:

And what has that to do with the desires of any of the parties currently sitting in government?

sorry meant to post article 3 as well

It is the firm will of the Irish nation, in harmony and friendship, to unite all the people who share the territory of the island of Ireland, in all the diversity of their identities and traditions, recognising that a united Ireland shall be brought about only by peaceful means with the consent of a majority of the people, democratically expressed, in both jurisdictions in the island. Until then, the laws enacted by the Parliament established by this Constitution shall have the like area and extent of application as the laws enacted by the Parliament that existed immediately before the coming into operation of this Constitution.

Sleepy

cdebru wrote:

united kingdom is not a nationality

That's why I said "Northern Irish".

Sleepy

cdebru wrote:

sorry meant to post article 3 as well

It is the firm will of the Irish nation, in harmony and friendship, to unite all the people who share the territory of the island of Ireland, in all the diversity of their identities and traditions, recognising that a united Ireland shall be brought about only by peaceful means with the consent of a majority of the people, democratically expressed, in both jurisdictions in the island. Until then, the laws enacted by the Parliament established by this Constitution shall have the like area and extent of application as the laws enacted by the Parliament that existed immediately before the coming into operation of this Constitution.

Again, let me ask you. What has that to do with the desires of any of the mainstream parties currently sitting in the Dail? I think it's clear that none of the Irish parties, SF excepted are actively seeking the destruction of this country.

cdebru

Sleepy wrote:

That's why I said "Northern Irish".

do you see the second word in there IRISH they are just as Irish as anyone born in the 26 counties

as you reminded us we changed our constitution and the overwhelming majority of people of the 26 counties accepted it

It is the entitlement and birthright of every person born in the island of Ireland, which includes its islands and seas, to be part of the Irish nation

Sleepy

cdebru, there was also a first word there: "Northern". Distinctly put there to distinguish between two very different things.

Anyone growing up in Northern Ireland has had a distinctly different life than someone from the Republic. To say that someone living in part of the United Kingdom, who earns and pays taxes in Sterling, more than likely works for the British Government, sat A Levels instead of the Leaving Cert, has grown up in a country where no matter what your religeon or politics you can be killed by crossing one of your fellow countrymen that plays an active part in one of the many terrorist groups (or in fact, to belong to one of those groups yourself), etc. etc. etc. The cultural differences are staggering. Most Northern Irish people have far more cultural similarities to the Scottish than to those of us living in the Republic of Ireland.

Different country. Different culture. Different nationality.

Sleepy

cdebru wrote:

as you reminded us we changed our constitution and the overwhelming majority of people of the 26 counties accepted it

Tell you what, I'll accept that part of our law if you accept the part that says that we have no claim to Northern Ireland or it's governance.

Under our current legislation my cousins who have never spent longer than a fortnight in this country hold Irish passports instead of the Australian one's that imho they should. This doesn't make them Irish. It makes them Australians that have Irish citizenship through their emmigrant parents.

cdebru

Sleepy wrote:

Tell you what, I'll accept that part of our law if you accept the part that says that we have no claim to Northern Ireland or it's governance.

Under our current legislation my cousins who have never spent longer than a fortnight in this country hold Irish passports instead of the Australian one's that imho they should. This doesn't make them Irish. It makes them Australians that have Irish citizenship through their emmigrant parents.

the constitution does not lay claim to the six counties it does however say it is the firm wish of the irish people to unite all the people of the Island

if your cousins are children of irish emigrants of course they are irish

it seems you want the best of both worlds people born here not of irish parents are not irish and people born elsewhere of irish parents are not irish

you have a very narrow definition of what you believe an irish person to be

cdebru

Sleepy wrote:

cdebru, there was also a first word there: "Northern". Distinctly put there to distinguish between two very different things.

Anyone growing up in Northern Ireland has had a distinctly different life than someone from the Republic. To say that someone living in part of the United Kingdom, who earns and pays taxes in Sterling, more than likely works for the British Government, sat A Levels instead of the Leaving Cert, has grown up in a country where no matter what your religeon or politics you can be killed by crossing one of your fellow countrymen that plays an active part in one of the many terrorist groups (or in fact, to belong to one of those groups yourself), etc. etc. etc. The cultural differences are staggering. Most Northern Irish people have far more cultural similarities to the Scottish than to those of us living in the Republic of Ireland.

Different country. Different culture. Different nationality.

so your definition of ireland is the euro a currency we share with 11 countries
and the leaving cert

yes how could we ever live together having sat two different exams


seriously what about sport a shared history culture arts religion language music television and with at least 40% odd of the population of the 6 counties a shared Irish identity and loyalty

A Dub in Glasgo

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

Well I am currently a resident of the UK and could go for UK citizenship now but I choose not to. Am I less Irish because I am not paying taxes in the Republic and have lived there for nearly 12 years?

Absolutely not, you're as Irish as I am, Bob Geldof or Terry Wogan, all 4 of us have Irish passports afaik.

You are defining Irishness with the Republic. I do not see it that way at all. I have never paid tax in the Republic, I have not voted in an Irish Election since the early '90s... am I less Irish?
Nobody has even questioned that. Yet you are suggesting that someone from NI who feels they are Irish and who is entitled to be Irish should not because it would be insulting to some anonymous person in the Republic

Sleepy or anyone can suggest that Irishness or citizenship extends to just the 26 counties all they like, they are entitled to that view but it is not the position by law.
In other words their view has no basis in law.
We do have a peculiar set up though.I know of a man down the road from me whose father died recently.All that family are Irish, proud to be and claim to be with the passports etc.
However some of them hail from the north and were born and bred there,the mans uncle and first cousins come down to Wexford every summer.
They are British, have UK passports and are paid up members of their local Ulster unionist party.
The peculiarity is exampled by the fact that when in Wexford and when they go to Church on Sunday,the local minister always asks the congregation to pray for the President and the government of the Country[ie Mary Robinson and Bertie Ahern] where as when they meet up North it's for the Queen and Tony Blair.

bonkey

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

Defining Irishness within the confines of the Republic.... why?

And the whole discussion ends up back at the age-old chestnut of "how dare you define Irishness in a manner differently to me".

Personally, I don't get how either side of the discussion can so readily blur the distinction between a citizen of the Republic of Ireland, and what being Irish means.

If you believe they are the same, then the only distinction in the current discussion is whether or not you are a citizen. The US-born-and-bred, Irish-passport-holding grandchild of an Irish-born son of Japanese parents who were on holidays here in the 50s is, according to this stance, every single bit as "Irish" as anyone born and bred on the island with a family tree stretching back to whenever which is all based on the island, as is the foreigner who acquired the passport for a large brown envelope or other considerations

Conversely, if you believe they are different, then can you use one as a benchmark for what the other should entail? Surely if you define Irishness differently to citizenship then being Irish ceases to have be an issue of law. You can be Irish without being a citizen, or you can be a citizen without being Irish. After all...when we were under British rule...did that stop people being Irish? If so, how did we become Irish once more?

And finally...if you believe Irishnses is seperate to citizenship, then what is the big deal with the North being subject to a foreign government and part of a foreign nation? It doesn't effect how Irish the people up there are.

jc

cdebru

MT wrote:

And under UK law they’re just as British as anyone born in Scotland, Wales or England is. In reality, in one case they are potential citizens and in the other de facto and de jure citizens. Which caries the most weight as far as some ones day to day life is concerned? The latter, of course.
.

actually that is factually incorrect they are not british and never have been

they are UK subjects not british
british although often used as a shorthand for UK actually only refers to england scotland and wales those nations making up the island of britain


they are not potential citizens they are citizens by right it is their choice wether to take up that right many nationalist in the north do

MT wrote:

As far as I’m concerned, citizenship is much more important than merely a name or description. It’s about actively participating in your state/democracy. Citizenship carries with it a responsibility to fulfil certain duties such as payment of taxes, abiding the laws of the land and choosing through voting those who govern. So while people in the US or Northern Ireland may well be entitled to an Irish passport or to call themselves Irish, I feel it cheapens the status of citizenship to draw a parity of status between these people and those who actually live, work and pay taxes in the Irish Republic.
.

living working and paying taxes here does not make you irish no more than living working and paying taxes in glasgow makes Dub in Glasgow scottish
so do citizens who choose to live and work abroad or are forced to give up their right to citizenship
the responsibilities you give to citizenship pertain if you live within the jurisdiction of the state if you do not live within the borders of the state for whatever reason does not limit your right to citizenship

MT wrote:

Take myself, for example. I was born and live in Northern Ireland. To consider me as much of an Irish citizen as someone such as, say, Sleepy, would I feel be something of an insult. I’ve never paid a penny in tax to the Irish government. I’ve never once participated in choosing the Irish government by voting. There’s probably a list of things as long as your arm that I haven’t fulfilled when compared to a real citizen of the Irish Republic. So to turn around and say, ‘there you are MT, you’re just as much of an Irish citizen as Sleepy’ completely degrades the value of that status.

.

no it doesn't and I don't feel that my status as an irish citizen is in any way degraded by accepting that people born of irish parents abroad are irish or that people born in the six counties are irish it is a simple statement of fact

MT wrote:

Such reflections could be deployed just as easily to make the case for maintaining NI’s place with the UK. The people of NI and GB have a very similar interest in sport, watch the same TV and furthermore the latest survey (ERSI) states that 87% of Protestants there wish to remain in the UK while more than 20% of Catholics do so likewise. So a clear majority prefer the constitutional status quo. So if the qualifications you refer to were what’s required for nationality such indicators would suggest the place should be British and not Irish.
.

i see so gaelic games are as popular amonst the english scottish and welsh as they are in the north and rte is as widely watched in GB as in the north and the irish language and irish music etc etc


even if you accept fully the esri you post it to suit your self it could be equally said that 13 % of protestants and 80% of catholics are unhappy with the current situation






.[/QUOTE]

MT

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

No as this situation has nothing to do with global trouble spots

I’m afraid that it’s on the globe and is a trouble spot. So it fits the definition of a global trouble spot as well as any other. You implied that the Irish government shouldn’t ignore the problem across the border. I’ve simply extended this logic to other troubled parts beyond the borders of the Irish Republic. Why should it discriminate in choosing which to sort out?

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

And nobody here made the claim that they are not.. did they?

Where did I say anyone did?

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

We are talking about the view that some people hold that anybody outside of the Republics border are somehow less Irish or not Irish at all.

It’s a view I share. As I’ve said, I am less of an Irish citizen than someone who has paid tax, voted and who has contributed to society, in the Irish Republic. Indeed, I’d go further and say that until someone such as myself moves to or contributes to that country then I shouldn’t be eligible for Irish citizenship at all.

As for the ethnic term Irish, well, its definition is much more subjective. What should matter to a state are its actual citizens. They’re the ones who pay its taxes, will be called upon to die for it in times of national peril etc. This thread is beginning to wander into the territory of civic nationalism v. ethnic nationalism. An interesting question that reflects this divide is who’s more Irish, someone that emigrates from South Korea acquires Irish citizenship and works in and pays taxes to Ireland’s government for the rest of their life or a Liverpudlian with Irish grandparents?

Should Ireland be an entirely civic state like Canada or one with more of an ethnic identity such as Germany?

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

Well I am currently a resident of the UK and could go for UK citizenship now but I choose not to. Am I less Irish because I am not paying taxes in the Republic and have lived there for nearly 12 years?

In my opinion, yes. Citizenship and nationality, if they are to be truly worth the name, must carry with them duties as well as rights. The payment of taxes, amongst other things, is a key responsibility of citizenship. As you and I have paid no taxes - instead supplying them to another state - we are less Irish than those that do. Furthermore, while both of us remain outside the Irish Republic thereby not contributing to its society by voting and such, then I’d suggest we’ve no right to consider ourselves Irish at all. We simply haven’t met the duties that such a nationality involves. I don’t believe that saying you’re Irish while living abroad and playing no part in its society is a good enough qualification.

If you’re an ethnic nationalist you might view things differently but I don’t put much store in the ideology. Look what strong ‘blood’ nationalism enabled Hitler to do. Furthermore, if someone’s claims to be Irish are based solely upon their ancestral birthplace then George W Bush may as well be considered English.

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

Why? I would not be insulted at all.

Well naturally. If you’re telling all and sundry that you’re as Irish as they come while paying no taxes to the Irish government and living abroad - contributing instead to another society - its most likely comforting to believe that no one enduring the full responsibilities of Irish citizenship would be in any way peeved by your claims to equal status. I, on the other hand - as someone in a similar position to yourself - realise the folly of such a state of affairs whereby those that haven’t contributed, despite being able to, can claim the benefits of those that have.

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

Who would be insulted?

Oh, let me see now. Those that pay taxes to the Irish government. Those that vote in Ireland’s elections. Those that must abide by its rules. Those that happen to live in the place.

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

You are defining Irishness with the Republic.

Is there a better alternative? As I’ve stated previously, you could go down the route of ethnic nationalism but think where that leads. People emigrating from all over the world to Ireland at the moment would never really consider themselves Irish. Ethnic identity formed the justification for Germany’s invasion of the Sudatenland in the Second World War. Likewise, ethnicity is the backbone of China’s territorial claim over Taiwan. There could well be a war over it in the coming decades. No, in my view citizenship works best when based upon the ideals of civic nationalism and not racially based ethnic nationalism.

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

You have the choice, have you chosen the Irish path?

Indeed, I do. If I up sticks and move to the Irish Republic and participate fully in its society (taxes, voting etc.) then I will be able to justifiably claim Irish citizenship. Again, without fulfilling the duties, I would never countenance cheapening such a status by an unwarranted claim carrying with it no responsibility. As for the ‘Irish path’, you’ll have to clarify that comment. I’m at a loss as to what it means.

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

I don't really know, it is not me who is putting a tiered level of Irishness to all this. Others are.

You’re certainly right there. Seemly, you’d have it that a nationality cherished dearly by those who’ve actually contributed to the nation would be available free of responsibility to goodness knows how many. In my view, it’s much more black and white than tiered. Some it seems would prefer a veritable free-for-all. Shame the 70 million plus across the globe that claim Irishness so cheaply wouldn’t throw some tax Dublin’s way.

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

Defining Irishness within the confines of the Republic.... why?

Because, as I’ve stated, there’s no better or fairer way.

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

Nobody has even questioned that. Yet you are suggesting that someone from NI who feels they are Irish and who is entitled to be Irish should not because it would be insulting to some anonymous person in the Republic

I never said anybody had questioned the Britishness of people in NI. Instead, I merely highlighted the way in which certain cultural traits could be construed as British just as much or more so than they could be viewed as Irish. As for your second sentence I hadn’t suggested in my previous post but am now. I believe that it should be insulting to people in the Irish Republic that those north of the border can claim a citizenship of equal standing despite having contributed little or nothing to the Irish state. Such a situation is completely unjust and diminishes the value of Irish citizenship.

Oh, and clever attempt at downgrading the feelings of those in the Republic with the use of the description ‘anonymous’. Sure, the ‘someone’ from NI is equally anonymous.

A Dub in Glasgo

bonkey wrote:

And the whole discussion ends up back at the age-old chestnut of "how dare you define Irishness in a manner differently to me".

In the absence of a definitive definition (maybe our constitution is definitive?) It is not a question of how dare you, it is a question of why and what assumptions have been made to alter from the accepted norm (maybe our consitution is the accepted norm?)

Personally, I don't get how either side of the discussion can so readily blur the distinction between a citizen of the Republic of Ireland, and what being Irish means.

If you believe they are the same, then the only distinction in the current discussion is whether or not you are a citizen. The US-born-and-bred, Irish-passport-holding grandchild of an Irish-born son of Japanese parents who were on holidays here in the 50s is, according to this stance, every single bit as "Irish" as anyone born and bred on the island with a family tree stretching back to whenever which is all based on the island, as is the foreigner who acquired the passport for a large brown envelope or other considerations

Conversely, if you believe they are different, then can you use one as a benchmark for what the other should entail? Surely if you define Irishness differently to citizenship then being Irish ceases to have be an issue of law. You can be Irish without being a citizen, or you can be a citizen without being Irish. After all...when we were under British rule...did that stop people being Irish? If so, how did we become Irish once more?

We are all citizens of the EU anyway. The whole issue of citizenship, nationality (native and naturalised, blood line or territory acquired) is a complex subject especially when dealing with a colonial situation. I do not pretend to have all the answers.

And finally...if you believe Irishnses is seperate to citizenship, then what is the big deal with the North being subject to a foreign government and part of a foreign nation? It doesn't effect how Irish the people up there are.

Apart from the obvious question of oppression of the minority

cdebru

MT wrote:

I believe that it should be insulting to people in the Irish Republic that those north of the border can claim a citizenship of equal standing despite having contributed little or nothing to the Irish state. Such a situation is completely unjust and diminishes the value of Irish citizenship.

.

you can believe that it should be insulting if you want it does not make it insulting

the 26 counties has set out in its constitution and laws who is entitled to be a citizen why would people in the 26 counties feel insulted that people had such rights
what i find insulting is if we tried to deny the irishness of people who through not fault of their own happen to be born ouside the jurisdiction of the 26 counties to suggest that they would have to move into the 26 counties before they could be really consider themselves to be irsh is riducolous it smacks of some attempt at ethnic cleansing

citizenship does not have lesser standings all citizens are equal wether they are in dublin or derry or timbuktu

what citizenship would people have under your idea for example if someone was living abroad but not entitled to citizenship in the country in which they reside as most immigrants in ireland for example would they become stateless

if they got in to trouble in the state that they lived in should their original country wash their hands of them as they are no longer proper citizens

cdebru

cdebru wrote:

actually that is factually incorrect they are not british and never have been

Unless they revoke it, they are factually UK Nationals.
If you are a UK passport holder does the document state that you are a British/UK citizen or a British/UK national? That would be pertinent here.
Also legally as a result of the British Nationality act of jan1 1983 taken from here

You will also be a British citizen if:

* you were born in the United Kingdom after 31 December 1982 and one of your parents was then a British citizen or legally settled in the United Kingdom
* you were born outside the United Kingdom after 31 December 1982 and at the time of your birth one parent was a British citizen other than by descent (for example, by naturalisation, registration or birth), or
* you were registered or naturalised as a British citizen after 31 December 1982.

So basically anyone born in NI after the 1st of january 1983 is by law a British citizen unless they revoke it, just like by the Republics laws they are entitled to Irish citizenship
In fact iirc dual nationality is tolerated here.

cdebru

Earthman wrote:

Unless they revoke it, they are factually UK Nationals.
If you are a UK passport holder does the document state that you are a British/UK citizen or a British/UK national? That would be pertinent here.


.

not being a holder of a UK passport i believe it says subject

although i could be wrong

Eoghan-psych

Sleepy wrote:

Different country. Different culture. Different nationality.

The simple fact is that it doesn't matter.

British and Irish law contains so many special reciprocal entitlements that whether one is "British" or "Irish" doesn't actually matter.

Two examples:
Irish citizens have full voting rights in the UK, based solely on residency. Same for British citizens in the Republic.

Irish citizens have special access rights to the UK armed forces, over and above those available to other nations [residency requirements etc].

These sorts of arrangements, coupled to the various EU entitlements, pretty much negate the issue, at least in "on paper" terms.


When it comes to people's own interpretations - I think that people in the North have as much right as I do to call themselves Irish if that is how they identify culturally. Likewise, if they identify as British that's fine too.

MT

cdebru wrote:

actually that is factually incorrect they are not british and never have been

Actually, it’s entirely factual. UK law states that they have every right to consider themselves British.

cdebru wrote:

they are UK subjects not british
british although often used as a shorthand for UK actually only refers to england scotland and wales those nations making up the island of britain

What you’ve written there is entirely incorrect. Again, UK law states that they have just as much right to British citizenship as anyone else in the UK. Equally, they are just as entitled to refer to themselves as British.

The UK refers to the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. The term British applies to all those living in the UK.

cdebru wrote:

they are not potential citizens they are citizens by right it is their choice wether to take up that right many nationalist in the north do

Read my post, I used the phrase in reality. Furthermore, throughout my post I was stating my opinion. In my view, someone living in NI will only ever be a potential citizen of the Irish Republic. They don’t live there, don’t pay its taxes and don’t contribute to its society. It’s a free lunch and is entirely unfair.

cdebru wrote:

living working and paying taxes here does not make you irish no more than living working and paying taxes in glasgow makes Dub in Glasgow scottish

True. But it should be impossible to become a citizen of any country without fulfilling such basic requirements.

cdebru wrote:

so do citizens who choose to live and work abroad or are forced to give up their right to citizenship

Depends on the duration. In my view, if someone chooses to move abroad permanently they should be required to relinquish their right to citizenship. I strongly believe that citizenship is a deeply cherished right that demands certain duties from the holder. One should be a commitment to live in that country in the long run, another is payment of taxes and so on and so forth.

cdebru wrote:

the responsibilities you give to citizenship pertain if you live within the jurisdiction of the state if you do not live within the borders of the state for whatever reason does not limit your right to citizenship

Then you must view such a right as being next to worthless. I place a much higher value upon Irish citizenship. A clear demonstration of commitment to the nation is amongst the most important. Go down your route and you’ll end up with the Sean Connery style of nationality. He’s such a proud Scot he lives in a tax haven to avoid contributing his share to the nations coffers. Wearing a kilt and telling anyone who’ll listen how much of a Scot he is in no way makes up for this woeful failing.

cdebru wrote:

no it doesn't and I don't feel that my status as an irish citizen is in any way degraded by accepting that people born of irish parents abroad are irish or that people born in the six counties are irish it is a simple statement of fact

I feel that a claim by someone such as myself for Irish citizenship should be insulting to those who have fulfilled certain duties to obtain such a right. As I’ve said previously, I would consider it free loading on my part. If you don’t feel similarly, then I’d suggest you’re misguided. Do you see citizenship as a right carrying no responsibilities? That there is absolutely no quid pro quo?

cdebru wrote:

i see so gaelic games are as popular amonst the english scottish and welsh as they are in the north and rte is as widely watched in GB as in the north and the irish language and irish music etc etc

If you’re implying that I claimed people in NI play sports only popular in the rest of the UK, then you’d be wrong. My post merely highlighted that for almost every claim that there’s a cultural overlap between NI and the Republic there’s one equally as valid for NI and GB.

cdebru wrote:

even if you accept fully the esri you post it to suit your self it could be equally said that 13 % of protestants and 80% of catholics are unhappy with the current situation

Hang on there, it was you who first used the 40% figure to suit your argument. Indeed, the figures I quote are much more accurate as the 87% and 20% actually state their preference for continued union. 40% of NI’s population being Catholic does not equate to 40% having a shared ‘loyalty’ to the Irish state. Furthermore, it is you that has used the last set of figures to suit your argument, I merely stated them as they were. For your information of the 13% of protestants that prefer differently only 3-4% would like to see Irish unity. Of the 80% of Catholics, 65% would like to see unity. So there is a clear majority in favour of the status quo. That’s all I was highlighting against your dubious claims of ‘loyalty’ with regard to a figure of 40%.

Hydroquinone

Eoghan-psych wrote:

Two examples:
Irish citizens have full voting rights in the UK, based solely on residency. Same for British citizens in the Republic.

Irish citizens have special access rights to the UK armed forces, over and above those available to other nations [residency requirements etc].

I agree with the overall sentiments in your post, but I'll have to pull you up here on a fact. British citizens who are resident in Ireland do not have full voting rights in Ireland.
You absolutely must be an Irish citizen to vote in an Irish constitutional referendum. British citizens resident here do not get a vote for those.

As per the instructions when I split this from the "enough already" thread...
Keep this to the topic of citizenship,Irishness or Britishness please.
If you want to discuss whether NI is worth the Irish govts time /energy and why then go to the "enough already" thread.

BuffyBot

Irish citizens have full voting rights in the UK

You can vote in local and European elections, but I'm not so sure about General elections.

A Dub in Glasgo

Irish people have full voting rights in the UK. I have been voting in UK General Elections since I came over here.

Do you know if you will have a vote in the UK referenendum on the E.U constitution? given that UK citizens cant vote in constitutional referenda here.

Eoghan-psych

Hydroquinone wrote:

I agree with the overall sentiments in your post, but I'll have to pull you up here on a fact. British citizens who are resident in Ireland do not have full voting rights in Ireland.
You absolutely must be an Irish citizen to vote in an Irish constitutional referendum. British citizens resident here do not get a vote for those.

Yes, I should have included that caveat - I wasn't thinking of referenda as being relevant, as the constitution pertains exclusively to Irish citizens. But yes, they do certainly come under 'voting'. A symptom of too much typing, not enough coffee.

The problem has since been rectified and I'm now firing on all cylinders.

A Dub in Glasgo

Earthman wrote:

Do you know if you will have a vote in the UK referenendum on the E.U constitution? given that UK citizens cant vote in constitutional referenda here.

I have no idea on that one. I'll find out soon enough though

Sleepy

A_Dub_In_Glasgow wrote:

Well I am currently a resident of the UK and could go for UK citizenship now but I choose not to. Am I less Irish because I am not paying taxes in the Republic and have lived there for nearly 12 years?

Frankly, yes you are. You can no longer legitimately claim to father Irish children. You don't live here, you don't pay taxes here, you don't vote here. You may hold an Irish passport but to all intents and purposes you've become British.

To be honest, your attitude reminds me of all the ignorant Americans who believe that because their great-great-great-grandmother on their father's side was Irish that they somehow are too despite never having set foot out of Boston.

MT

cdebru wrote:

you can believe that it should be insulting if you want it does not make it insulting

Hence, the use of the word ‘believe’. I’m not in the habit of passing off my opinions as fact so don’t imply that I have.

cdebru wrote:

the 26 counties has set out in its constitution and laws who is entitled to be a citizen why would people in the 26 counties feel insulted that people had such rights

And I’ve stated, I disagree with these laws. I think I’m right in believing that we’re allowed to express differing opinions at boards. I believe that people who contribute to the Irish state should feel insulted that someone like myself is entitled to equal citizenship without enduring any such burden of responsibility. As I’ve said previously, such a state of affairs devalues the worth of the citizenship they hold.

cdebru wrote:

what i find insulting is if we tried to deny the irishness of people who through not fault of their own happen to be born ouside the jurisdiction of the 26 counties to suggest that they would have to move into the 26 counties before they could be really consider themselves to be irsh is riducolous it smacks of some attempt at ethnic cleansing

So your saying that anyone born outside the 26 counties of the Irish Republic should be entitled to Irish citizenship. So, in your view Ireland has a potential population of roughly 6 billion. Furthermore, you believe it would amount to ethnic cleansing if the people of China, Africa, Brazil etc. were denied this right. I’m sorry, but who’s views are the more ridiculous?

Again, I’ll reiterate my view: Irish citizenship should require a commitment to the Irish state. This would surely best be made by residing there and contributing to society through payment of taxes, voting, abiding by the laws, etc. How denying citizenship to those living abroad, making no contribution to Irish society amounts to ethnic cleansing I’ll never know. Do you feel ‘ethnically cleansed’ by all the nations that haven’t offered you citizenship?

cdebru wrote:

citizenship does not have lesser standings all citizens are equal wether they are in dublin or derry or timbuktu

I’m afraid they’re not. A ‘citizen’ living in Timbuktu contributes nothing to the Irish government in the form of tax. If Ireland were threatened by a hostile nation, what guarantee would there be that such a ‘citizen’ would return to aid the nation’s defence. In relation to this example, is the status of someone like Sean Connery. I would view his Scottishness in a very dim light while he resides in a tax haven, abdicating his responsibility to pay tax to the nation he claims to be a national of. Citizenship should come with a price or it becomes a worthless status.

cdebru wrote:

what citizenship would people have under your idea for example if someone was living abroad but not entitled to citizenship in the country in which they reside as most immigrants in ireland for example would they become stateless

People would have a citizenship that actually meant something: one that required commitment and sacrifice. For as long as Irish citizenship is cheapened by being passed out willy nilly to those who may never set foot in the country the concept of the responsible citizen is undermined. Citizenship should be seen as a bond between those who govern and those who are governed. The price should be a financial contribution and an active interest in how government is constituted. Handing out citizenship to those who don’t live under and contribute to the nation’s government cheapens it status to the point of being a mere token. ‘Oh look, I acquired Irish citizenship today, it’ll go on the shelf next to the Dutch clogs and the chopsticks from Japan’.

If people choose to leave their country for another then they should have no qualms about relinquishing the status that reflects their former bond with their previous society and government. Having left, they’re no longer a share-holder if you like. By moving to another country they’ve indicated their commitment to another state and I’d suggest they should consolidate that bond by acquiring citizenship in their new land.

cdebru wrote:

if they got in to trouble in the state that they lived in should their original country wash their hands of them as they are no longer proper citizens

Dare I say it, they’ve made their bed… If they break the law in their new home they should be punished accordingly. Why should a country they’ve turned their backs on feel obliged to intervene? No one asked those who’ve emigrated to continue paying tax so why should they receive any benefits from the government and society they’ve forsaken?

A Dub in Glasgo

Sleepy wrote:

Frankly, yes you are. You can no longer legitimately claim to father Irish children. You don't live here, you don't pay taxes here, you don't vote here. You may hold an Irish passport but to all intents and purposes you've become British.

To be honest, your attitude reminds me of all the ignorant Americans who believe that because their great-great-great-grandmother on their father's side was Irish that they somehow are too despite never having set foot out of Boston.

lol

I have 2 lovely children both born in Glasgow and both of them as Irish as you and I. Take a chill pill.

My attitude is nothing like what you describe