Pope has died

Dinner

Yeah your probably right. Pity you cant help ignorance.

Freeshack

R.i.p.

Dinner

Gummybearz!!! wrote:

One could say the same about Hitler's views on the Jews.

Sure everyone's entitled to their own views but when they begin to make a huge negative impact on the world then there is a huge problem.

Hitlers views on the Jews was personal, the Popes views on contraception were not personal.

I would disagree with you on the negative impact on the world. I assume your talking about the spread of AIDS in Africa? If you are then I would argue that if there were no missionarys in Africa the spread of AIDS would be the same. But those Missionarys do alot of good out there and do help people. Be it giving water, food or even faith.

I think they should be given contraceptive out there and that some fo the Churchs laws are out dated but it has doen so much good out there. And while it has not helped stop the AIDS spread, it has not helped it either.

jmor

i am very sorry for the death of a Polish Citizen, he was a very generous & pleasant man and when i saw him on the television i thought he appeared very gentle and i am very sad that he has died and no doubt that many people will remember him greatly.

Yet, practically what did he do? did he make the european ascencion easier , did he make us more acceptable? ....will we be paid time & a half for our over time ....will we be paid double time on bank holidays ????

RIP JP2 ....but the life your families in ireland is OKOROPNIE ......shame on ireland

alleepally

Gummybearz!!! wrote:

One could say the same about Hitler's views on the Jews.

Sure everyone's entitled to their own views but when they begin to make a huge negative impact on the world then there is a huge problem.

When the history books are written and historians look back on the society we are in right now and see the rampant consumerism, the incredible and staggering wealth in the western world V the extreme poverty in the developing world, the finger will point at each of us living right now and say how could we, yes me and you, allow this to happen? They might also say that extreme poverty resulted in sex being the only currency in poverty striken nations with the Aids epidemic being the result.

[edit]

Just to add to this, an extract from a Unicef report on HIV/Aids..

"Girls are at very high risk of infection. This is especially true in sub-Saharan Africa, the region hardest hit by HIV/AIDS. In this region, more than two out of three newly-infected 15-24-year olds are female.

Grinding poverty, along with a lack of education and productive resources, multiplies the chances that girls and women will sell sex as their only economic option. In AIDS-affected communities, ‘survival sex’ has become common currency – traded for food, cash, and ‘shelter’ – even for education."

I can't see any of these girls having an option to even think about morality or the Pope's teachings on Condom use in this scenario, can you? In fact, I would suggest the Pope isn't even on the radar when you're hungry and trying to survive

jmor

alleepally ...i read your message and i think i understand what you are saying ...i think. my wife's family have suffered whatever any family could suffer in Poland ; she is catholic and see's 'Carol' as an old priest who has done his best and sees him as any priest with a job ????

Piste

Arabel wrote:

Hitlers views on the Jews was personal, the Popes views on contraception were not personal.

Whether they were personal or not, he was a respected leader and his views were adopted by many faithful followers.

Arabel wrote:

I would disagree with you on the negative impact on the world. I assume your talking about the spread of AIDS in Africa? If you are then I would argue that if there were no missionarys in Africa the spread of AIDS would be the same. But those Missionarys do alot of good out there and do help people. Be it giving water, food or even faith.

But the missionaries aren't there as a direct effect of the views of the Pope. There are plenty of Protestant and other non-Catholic missionaries working in impoverishes countries.

Piste

alleepally wrote:

When the history books are written and historians look back on the society we are in right now and see the rampant consumerism, the incredible and staggering wealth in the western world V the extreme poverty in the developing world, the finger will point at each of us living right now and say how could we, yes me and you, allow this to happen?

It's not like everyone is just sitting back letting people die as a result of poverty. Millions is donated every year by people to charity organizations to help combat the poverty. People give their whole lives to help people in developing countries.

alleepally wrote:

They might also say that extreme poverty resulted in sex being the only currency in poverty striken nations with the Aids epidemic being the result.

Further confirming the need for respected figures of authority such as the Pope to support contraception.

jmor

""That good enough for you to respect a great man."" he was against homosexuallity and cotraception"" RIP ...thank god the world will be free from bigottry and narrow mindedness. Rest In Peace that life of single minded ignorant life we have had to suffer for years

jmor

we are free
from the Papal mafia

alleepally

Gummybearz!!! wrote:

It's not like everyone is just sitting back letting people die as a result of poverty. Millions is donated every year by people to charity organizations to help combat the poverty. People give their whole lives to help people in developing countries.

True, very true and I'm not going to argue with that BUT at a local level, our government last November withdrew from it's Millenium Development Goals commitment. Have you made representations to government on this issue? I'm not being confrontational when I say that but 84% of the population in Ireland haven't even heard of the Millenium Goals.

Further confirming the need for respected figures of authority such as the Pope to support contraception.

Sorry, but this wouldn't save lives in Africa. Read the extract from the Unicef report. Poverty is the reason for the epidemic spread of aids. A person in extreme poverty will do whatever they can to survive. Morality and the teachings of the church will not even enter the consciousness of a person in that situation. Poverty we can do something about. Getting the Catholic Church to change it's views on contraception is not something that can be changed. I would rather concentrate on a solution staring me in the face rather than let a chip on my shoulder about the Churches moral teaching blind me to the truth.

PeadarofAodh

RIP

A man who stood by his ideals and personal thoughts, be they viewed as old-fashioned and unpopular, without being afraid to speak them as many in positions of power would be. He has built so many bridges and the respect shown by all the world leaders today reflects on the man. The fact that he spoke out against the war on Iraq (even though he isn't a pacifist: he used to be in the Polish army) and then afterwards praised the aid and rebuilding efforts to try and give it some momentum shows that he wasn't short-sighted and ignorant like many of the anti-war mongers. ("Pull US troops out of Iraq!"...oh yeh, great- haven't had a good big civil war in a while, that'll keep Sky News busy!)

sci0x

alleepally wrote:

I'm not being confrontational when I say that but 84% of the population in Ireland haven't even heard of the Millenium Goals.

I am included in that 84%. What is the millenium goal?

alleepally

sci0x wrote:

I am included in that 84%. What is the millenium goal?

In my typing above I should have said Millenium Development Goals, sorry.

http://www.keepourword.org/

Check out there to start with but also do what you can to support makepovertyhistory too.

http://www.makepovertyhistory.ie

Piste

alleepally wrote:

True, very true and I'm not going to argue with that BUT at a local level, our government last November withdrew from it's Millenium Goals commitment. Have you made representations to government on this issue? I'm not being confrontational when I say that but 84% of the population in Ireland haven't even heard of the Millenium Goals.

Oh I know about the government breaking its promises to give more money to impoverished countries, I gave out postcards on the subject.

alleepally wrote:

Sorry, but this wouldn't save lives in Africa. ............................ Poverty we can do something about. Getting the Catholic Church to change it's views on contraception is not something that can be changed. I would rather concentrate on a solution staring me in the face rather than let a chip on my shoulder about the Churches moral teaching blind me to the truth.

Effective contraception combined with education would both save and prevent lives in Africa. Widespread contraception would definitely make an impact on AIDS.

The Church changed its views on whether the world was round or not and changed its views on Limbo....It may very well change them on contaception. Maybe not anytime soon....but hopefully....

jmor

well ..when all is said all is said! Polish people wil still be paid minimum wage without tax etc. ...I soeak English with a english accent so that i am paid yet i am half spanish half irish ..yet my cousin is an english constable and is spendiing time in Naas just to collect info

alleepally

Gummybearz!!! wrote:

Oh I know about the government breaking its promises to give more money to impoverished countries, I gave out postcards on the subject.

Good, but agitate politicians too if you can and don't take the usual "The minister notes your letter" response.. Enough people make representations they might take notice.

Effective contraception combined with education would both save and prevent lives in Africa. Widespread contraception would definitely make an impact on AIDS.

The Church changed its views on whether the world was round or not and changed its views on Limbo....It may very well change them on contaception. Maybe not anytime soon....but hopefully....

Of course contraception would both save and prevent lives in Africa. But if Poverty is addressed, everything else will flow from that... Views on the world being round or the concept of limbo are academic and irrelevant when people are dying.

jonny68

An extremly sad time..may he rest in peace.......

PeadarofAodh

Alleepally's talking sense here, couldn't put it better.

jmor on the other hand...where the hell did you come from!? Some of the things you say almost makes me laugh and I'm not just saying that! The pope isn't really elected to aim at cutting down unemployment rate in his native country that is far better off than many other countries. He's done a lot of good for them!

"So JP2(Keep thinkin PS2) what are your papal plans for your reign?"
"Well, I plan on cutting down on income tax. And you know when you get those burgers in McDonalds and they don't look like the picture!? How annoying is that!? Somethings gotta be done and I plan on being the dooer!"

is_that_so

Seeing as we are blaming the Church for all evils here's my tuppence worth from elsewehere . Most of it stands http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=2563200#post2563200#134

jmor

i am sorry this Polish man has died. and if any person i know dies i would be perdon too. i am not catholic or christian like the majorirty of Poland we just live. please do not take what i say as part of my countrys policy ...lets get on with life and have a happy one catholic or not !!

alleepally

is_that_so wrote:

Seeing as we are blaming the Church for all evils here's my tuppence worth from elsewehere . Most of it stands http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=2563200#post2563200#134

Very good post.

jmor

PeadarofAodh
hello ...please read my messages as I am not including any hiddens stuff ...maybe you have a concious !!

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/member.php?u=29668
Today, 00:23 #70

billy the squid

he was only Gods representitive on earth, not God himself. how can you expect one man to solve 100 percent of the world's ills.

as said before, he played his part in the fall of communism in eastern europe.

how many wars did you stop?

billy the squid

jmor wrote:

well ..when all is said all is said! Polish people wil still be paid minimum wage without tax etc. ...I soeak English with a english accent so that i am paid yet i am half spanish half irish ..yet my cousin is an english constable and is spendiing time in Naas just to collect info

isnt that more of a reflection on the people that employ them rather than a reflection on the Pope?

someone elses troll account by the look of it..

alleepally

Michael Moore's homepage has some good quotes by the Pope.

http://www.michaelmoore.com

billy the squid

jmor your invited to come in using your default user account to express your views.

billy the squid

for those who are only interested in getting days off work/school because of this then you may be in luck. communist cuba has given a whole three days of mourning to commemorate the pope, so prospects are pretty good for those looking for "days off" considering that cuba is less tolerant of religions than we are here.

solas

jmor wrote:

Yet, practically what did he do?

He brought many people peace.

RIP JP

Shewhomustbe...

The passing of a great spirit is always sad.
The man was not perfect, he represented an institution which has ideals and rules not all of us agree with. He, however, cannot be held responsible for enforcing those rules. It may have been convenient that his thoughts & feelings on certain issues meshed well with those rules but he did grow up in a different social era. People resist change, especially if it looks to upset long held power bases. The Church will change, it will have to.

Cousin it

billy the squid wrote:

for those who are only interested in getting days off work/school because of this then you may be in luck. communist cuba has given a whole three days of mourning to commemorate the pope, so prospects are pretty good for those looking for "days off" considering that cuba is less tolerant of religions than we are here.

Communist Cuba? I'm not startin a fight with you but I thought communism doesn't allow religion? *raises shield wall*

JenLorigan

He did a lot, he did his best to make things better, I respect him for that.

May he rest in peace.

Dinner

Gummybearz!!! wrote:

But the missionaries aren't there as a direct effect of the views of the Pope. There are plenty of Protestant and other non-Catholic missionaries working in impoverishes countries.

Yes there are plenty of other faiths out there helping, so how come Catholicism always gets painted as the evil on who kills little children by not agreeing with condoms?

If someone doesn believe in something they should not be forced to change their views. If the Catholic church is against contraception then thats fine, let the other faiths out there give out condoms.

Kernel

Shewhomustbe... wrote:

The passing of a great spirit is always sad.
The man was not perfect, he represented an institution which has ideals and rules not all of us agree with. He, however, cannot be held responsible for enforcing those rules. It may have been convenient that his thoughts & feelings on certain issues meshed well with those rules but he did grow up in a different social era. People resist change, especially if it looks to upset long held power bases. The Church will change, it will have to.

The Church does not have to change it's core beliefs and values. What is right is right, and what is wrong is wrong, you can't just change morality and the teachings of the bible to suit your own hedonistic lifestyle.

Yes, some things are inconvenient, and even difficult to live with, if you choose the right path, but that doesn't mean we should change them to make our lives easier. Think of the teachings as guidelines.

The Church's teachings on contraception and pre-marital sex may put a dampener on everyone's fun, but that doesn't mean the rules should be chucked out the window so we can all have guilt free sex orgies.

And before anyone asks, yes, of course I have used contraception and had sex before marriage, but at least I recognise and accept that I'm a sinner.

Let the rules stand. You don't see Islam changing it's views to suit modern lifestyle, and more people are converting to it, and respecting it for sticking to it's guns.

Aleepally has the right idea. Jmor is talking complete ****e and probably just created a new account to troll.

I respect John Paul II and am sorry to see the man go.

billy the squid

Cousin it wrote:

Communist Cuba? I'm not startin a fight with you but I thought communism doesn't allow religion? *raises shield wall*

yeah havent you heard? there was a communist revoloution in Cuba and it is now a communist country.

Sarky

Kernel wrote:

The Church does not have to change it's core beliefs and values. What is right is right, and what is wrong is wrong, you can't just change morality and the teachings of the bible to suit your own hedonistic lifestyle.

Pity. You'd be amazed how often it's happened since Christianity first started up. If right is right and wrong is wrong, you're just as damned as I am.

Kernel

Sarky wrote:

Pity. You'd be amazed how often it's happened since Christianity first started up. If right is right and wrong is wrong, you're just as damned as I am.

There have been some minor changes, of course.. Vatican II for example. And you can even go back as far as the foundation of the church if you believe the Da Vinci Code's conspiracy theories of gospels being tinkered with by Roman emperors etc... but overall, the core beliefs of the church have not been changed, and every stance taken has a theological basis in the Bible.

Yes, even wearing johnnies and shagging like rabbits, and getting abortions if the johnny bursts. Sorry folks, the game is up. The Church is right, we can continue to party it up, but we may be doing wrong and be doomed to hell. Or there may not be a hell. Up to you on what you want/choose to believe, and how you want to live your life - that's the wonderful thing about free will.

I am certainly a sinner, but I don't know you well enough to say that I'm as damned as you are Sarky.

Piste

Arabel wrote:

Yes there are plenty of other faiths out there helping, so how come Catholicism always gets painted as the evil on who kills little children by not agreeing with condoms?

Because they are killing little Children by not agreeing with condoms!

Kernel wrote:

The Church does not have to change it's core beliefs and values. .

You're right, the church doesn't have to change its core beliefs and values, but just because the church says something doesn't make it right. Morals are subjective.

Kernel wrote:

What is right is right, and what is wrong is wrong, you can't just change morality and the teachings of the bible to suit your own hedonistic lifestyle.

I don't agree with that, morals are subjective. Everyone has their own ideas on what is right or what is wrong, and everyone is entitled to their own views so long as they don't negatively interefere with other people's lives.

Kernel wrote:

Jmor is talking complete ****e and probably just created a new account to troll.

Probably.

Sarky

Kernel wrote:

There have been some minor changes, of course.. Vatican II for example.

And if the new pope has the sense to call a Vatican III, there'll be some more "minor" changes. Vatican II resulted in changes to the way things were done that were far from minor. People can now understand the words, for a start. That's a hell of a lot more important than you might first think.

Shewhomustbe...

Kernel wrote:

The Church does not have to change it's core beliefs and values. What is right is right, and what is wrong is wrong, you can't just change morality and the teachings of the bible to suit your own hedonistic lifestyle.

Yes, some things are inconvenient, and even difficult to live with, if you choose the right path, but that doesn't mean we should change them to make our lives easier. Think of the teachings as guidelines.

The Church's teachings on contraception and pre-marital sex may put a dampener on everyone's fun, but that doesn't mean the rules should be chucked out the window so we can all have guilt free sex orgies.

And before anyone asks, yes, of course I have used contraception and had sex before marriage, but at least I recognise and accept that I'm a sinner.

Let the rules stand. You don't see Islam changing it's views to suit modern lifestyle, and more people are converting to it, and respecting it for sticking to it's guns.

Aleepally has the right idea. Jmor is talking complete ****e and probably just created a new account to troll.

I respect John Paul II and am sorry to see the man go.

I certainly would not expect the Church to change their core beliefs, values, or the "teachings" of the Bible and would please ask you not to make assumptions on the lifestyle I lead.

I would consider the Ten Commandments the core of the religion,
http://explanation-guide.info/meaning/Ten-Commandments.html
but as you can see even they are open to "interpretation"

I would never expect to see a change to their views on abortion as it is governed by the fifth commandment, but the manipulation of that to demand the non-use of contraception within a (monogamous-married or not)* relationship is dictatorship not guidelines.

I would however expect to see a change in the limitations imposed on women. Please show me where it is said by God/Jesus that women should never have the right to become priests or powerful members of the Vatican.
These 'rules' benefit men and do not allow any of the positive social developments to be incorporated into the institution to keep it developing.


*I assume anyone engaging in 'casual' sex uses condoms

monument

If you think there is some divine reason that the clergy shouldn’t marry, women should be second-class people, and you like the idea of shielding perpetrators of genocide, and are opposed the use of condoms (ie you like helping the spread of Aids), well, yes, he was a great man!...

Lets not forget gays are evil!...

His obdurate opposition to marriage among clergy decimated the foot soldiers of his church. His reluctance to confront the scandal of clerical sex abuse damaged his church's reputation and inflicted further sufferings on the victims.

http://www.sbpost.ie/post/pages/p/story.aspx-qqqt=VINCENT%20BROWNE-qqqs=commentandanalysis-qqqid=3654-qqqx=1.asp

billy the squid

no day of mourning for ireland, just been reported on RTE, although flags will be at half mast on government buildings.

Piste

That's disgraceful, a predominately Catholic country should have the chance to take a day off to mourn the leader of it's church, if Cuba gets one, why don't we?

Kernel

Shewhomustbe... wrote:

would please ask you not to make assumptions on the lifestyle I lead.

What are you on about...? I'm not making any assumptions as to the life you lead.. I don't even know who you are or what life you have... err.. it's not all about you love.

Shewhomustbe... wrote:

but the manipulation of that to demand the non-use of contraception within a (monogamous-married or not)* relationship is dictatorship not guidelines.

No, it isn't dictatorship. You can wear 3 condoms at a time if you like, while having a dildo shoved up your ass, nobody is stopping you from doing that.

The church just says that it believes having sex for reasons other than procreation (and wearing condoms, using contraceptives to artificially prevent pregnancy) is wrong. I tend to ignore that and carry on, so can you. I still accept that I may be a sinner for doing that, but am glad that an institution like the Church doesn't just change the rules to suit current trends.

Shewhomustbe... wrote:

I would however expect to see a change in the limitations imposed on women.

That'll be the day - back into the kitchen with you, you've been reading too many of those 'feminist' web sites again. You can become a nun if you want to be a part of the Church.

Memnoch

Kernel wrote:

but am glad that an institution like the Church doesn't just change the rules to suit current trends.

So does the church still advocate the belief that the earth is the centre of the universe and that the sun revolves around it? Or has it changed that particular belief in line with current trends? :rolleyes:

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

what about the human soul, are they still claiming that exists?

sexy darren

rest in peace jp thanks for all u have don sleep well

fightin irish

jmor wrote:

""That good enough for you to respect a great man."" he was against homosexuallity and cotraception"" RIP ...thank god the world will be free from bigottry and narrow mindedness. Rest In Peace that life of single minded ignorant life we have had to suffer for years

Havn't read the next 6 pages posted here,

R I P, the world lost a natural all human leader today.

Without startin a whole new thread, jmor...were put here to create life and keep the cycle going ''narrow mindedness'' i dont think so.

Dinner

Memnoch wrote:

So does the church still advocate the belief that the earth is the centre of the universe and that the sun revolves around it? Or has it changed that particular belief in line with current trends? :rolleyes:

So fact is a "trend" to you is it?

Memnoch

Arabel wrote:

So fact is a "trend" to you is it?

the irony is lost on this one. Read the post I replied to and then RE-READ my post.

The "FACT" is that the church doesn't have any core "belief" or "policy" that it sticks to. It has in fact over the years altered it's views on many things, AFTER having previously claimed that their original policy was FACT and the "gospel word of god," "written in the holy bibble" and whatnot. Burning people at the stake and excommunicating those who differed.

Thus to say that the church stays true to it's own teachings is a fallacy in the least and deception in the worst.

The church is like any other political organisation. It propagates the beliefs that allow it to further it's own agenda and power by pushing ignorance among the blissfully willing masses. Just as it did back when the sun revolved around the earth.

(hint look up sarcasm)