Affordable DIY Wind Turbines- Produce your own affordable electricity

Greenman

xonencentral,
I'm enjoying reading this thread!!! any chance of posting a few pics!!!
Thanks alot!!!

xonencentral

What kind of pic do you want me to post. I have to be careful, the wife is not impressed by the amount of people who are stoping by the house when they see the turbine so I don't want to add to that. DIVORCE is not worth being environmentally friendly; yet anyhow !!!, depends how long the equirers legs are; LOL. [Ouch]

But I'll gladly show you what I have done so far, let me know...

Greenman

What about!!!

The mounted turbine.
The battery setup.
How you have it connected it up.

Maybe you have covered this but can you run a washing machine?
Where are you in Ireland?
Is it an exposed area?

Do you think it is possible to have a switch so you can run between ESB and wind?

It all brings back very happy memories when I lived on a boat in North London and had Rutland turbine feeding into a 12v battery which ran lights and a radio, it really is such a nice feeling to think you are getting power for free, I know you have to invest but its still a joy. Much like the same feeling you get when you cycle to work or when you re use something that would have been dumped otherwise!!!!

xonencentral

I'll get the camera out.

If you have a washing machine with hot & cold water supply and you don't use it for heating the water, can't see why you couldn't, you just need inversion output.
My latest upgrade is a 2KW additional inversion unit for kettle, etc [ordered yesterday from SP], hmmm, might look at the washing machine myself.

I live off a national primary route down a side road with houses both sides of me and accross, just outside one of our county towns, so nothing special on location. It's not exposed, inland location. Don't want to give my location, my house is too popular at the moment because of the turbine.

The switching is easy, you just use a switching contacter, automatically switches beteen the 2 or in my case both the contacter and a seperate trip board for your green sockets, lights, etc. whole thing cost under 90 Euro. My system has never switched back to ESB yet (or even come close), lowest battery point so far has been 85%.

Oh what fun

CJhaughey

air wrote:

If you want to go totally off grid the coolest thing I've seen lately is a guy in the UK that is running a single cylinder stationary diesel engine on waste vegetable oil.
He drives a generator with the engine to produce electricity and recovers the heat produced by the engine (engines waste something like 60% of your fuel energy as heat) with a heat exchanger for heating hot water and / or his house.
What you get is basically a home CHP plant:
http://www.green-trust.org/wiki/index.php?title=Green-Trust_Heat_%26_Power_System

One of the most attractive things about wind energy is its relatively quiet.
Detroit Diesels are not known for being the most quiet of engines and the excitement of generating your own power may be tempered by complaints from neighbours about engine noise. Just a thing to be aware of , looks like that guy in the article lives in a fairly remote location and maybe noise isn't as big an issue as here in Planning happy Ireland.

Greenman

xonencentral wrote:

I'll get the camera out.

If you have a washing machine with hot & cold water supply and you don't use it for heating the water, can't see why you couldn't, you just need inversion output.
My latest upgrade is a 2KW additional inversion unit for kettle, etc [ordered yesterday from SP], hmmm, might look at the washing machine myself.

I live off a national primary route down a side road with houses both sides of me and accross, just outside one of our county towns, so nothing special on location. It's not exposed, inland location. Don't want to give my location, my house is too popular at the moment because of the turbine.

The switching is easy, you just use a switching contacter, automatically switches beteen the 2 or in my case both the contacter and a seperate trip board for your green sockets, lights, etc. whole thing cost under 90 Euro. My system has never switched back to ESB yet (or even come close), lowest battery point so far has been 85%.

Oh what fun

I look forward to the pics, thanks for the answers.

This might be a very good business opportunity, might get Duncan on the case!!!

air

Thats a good point CJ, however there's a guy called Ken Boak on the Wastewatts Yahoo forum that is successfully using a single cylinder Lister engine in a suburban setting.
I think that by constructing a purpose built shed for it with some heavy ballast, a vibration isolating mount and sound insulation in the walls the problems can be overcome.
I'm not sure if Ken has done all this yet, however I think he runs his engine during the day anyway at the moment when the background noise level is higher & most of his neighbours are at work.

Nordic

Reality check/report:
Mine is off-grid system 2kW 48VDC 3 phase output turbine on 8m tower with four 176Ah batteries. 3000W continuous inverter (with 6000W surge). Been running off-grid circuits on continuous load of 1.5kW for the last week (office PCs, power sockets for house, lights, workshop power sockets). Even on last sunny Sunday evening, with wind speed so slow you couldn't feel any on your face, turbine was pulling a charge current of 15A @ 48V = 720W.

xonencentral

Nordic, I hear ya, but what was your point ?

Simply that Wind power works perhaps ? Isn't that a contradiction of your previous statements in March where you said:

Nordic Quote: Having monitored my own "windy site" for a number of weeks now, my average wind speed is showing as 3.2m/s and we had some stormy weather during that time too. As I look at it now it's currently fluctuating between 1.5m/s & 4.8m/s. My anenometer has logged one peak gust at 12.2m/s over the last 3 weeks, average 3.5m/s, and I have a clear view for 25miles from my hilltop site.Nordic Unquote ?

Unless my maths are wrong, you tried to convince everyone that there wasn't enough wind in Ireland for wind turbines barely even to rotate back in March, and suddenly, you have no wind on your face on a sunny day and your turbine is pulling 15 Amps?

Please explain the change from Anti-wind to Pro-wind ? Have you a commercial agenda on here with a product to sell and you are changing your story now to suit that?

I also suggest that you should do some conservation work if you are pulling a continious 24 hour 1.5 KW, thats some ESB bill, nearly 370 euros depending on where you live and its only part of your usage. [Not very environmentally friendly]

Sounds like you are running a business rather than a domestic situation.

Nordic

I have just reported the facts. They were the wind speeds. At the time we were only looking at Windsave and surface power - hopelessly small outputs at 1kW and 500W respectively and over Eur1400 each. I hadn't found the manufacturer of my turbine selling me a 2kW (2.5kW peak) off-grid turbine with 8m tower, rectifier and inverter for about twice the money. This made all the difference.

"and suddenly, you have no wind on your face on a sunny day and your turbine is pulling 15 Amps". I'm as surprised as you, if not more surprised. But this is mainly down to it being a 48V system and 3.6m diameter, 8m in the air. You don't get the energy from nowhere. A small surface power units or windsave unit won't do that....end of story.

"I also suggest that you should do some conservation work if you are pulling a continious 24 hour 1.5 KW, thats some ESB bill, nearly 370 euros depending on where you live and its only part of your usage. [Not very environmentally friendly]
Sounds like you are running a business rather than a domestic situation."

You have stated over and over that you are out at work all day and not using any electricity really during the day. I work from home.

In advance... you've had this coming to you xonencentral....As I already stated before (maybe you were asleep for it but you can look again)...My ESB bill includes running my house 6,200ft², indoor swimming pool, 2,400ft² workshop, our offices. That's equivalent to probably 2 or 3 average houses, plus a pool, a full office 1200ft² and the workshop, AND the heat pump to heat all of it along with our well water supply.

So what's your's like then - bet if you analised it I'm being far more efficient than you could ever dream of being.

So SmartyPants find me 3 homeowners, a swimming pool and a workshop and an office and add their electricity and heating bills together and I think you'll find I'm VERY environmentally friendly, and nobody can touch it for efficiency.

Put yer SurfacePower turbine on that and watch the smoke rising out of it!

xonencentral...get out of yer SurfacePower Company car - 'cause yer getting on my wick at this stage!

air

Nordic,
Would you care to share some more info on your Turbine type, inverter, batteries & location?
I'm particularly interested in the make and model of your batteries and the size of your turbine.


I was looking at a decent 4500W / 48V inverter today & it was about $3000 alone.
I know you say your inverter is only 3kw but certainly the turbine, tower rectifier and inverter for 2800 or so would be an excellent deal.

Just for reference, met eireann have a handy rough map of average windspeeds.
It aptly illustrates that we are a really suitable location for wind power.
http://www.met.ie/climate/wind.asp
My own home is bordering on the 7m/s zone which is a very high average speed even the midlands at 4m/s isnt too bad since most generators start up around 3m/s.

xonencentral

Nordic,

Firstly, it's nice to to be nice and you are coming accross all the time as a very agressive individual, this does not show promise to good and courtious customer services as you quite clearly state you are in business.

I would prefer if we stopped talking about products as you can't even move off the subject without mentioning your 2 KW 48 volt wind turbine 8m height in every conversation.

Last Quote; 2kW (2.5kW peak) off-grid turbine with 8m tower, rectifier and inverter.

The one before Quote; Mine is off-grid system 2kW 48VDC 3 phase output turbine on 8m tower with four 176Ah batteries, and we were talking about veggie engines.

It might be best for no mention of products and if anybody wants info, let them do it privately. I am just trying to supply info on the "use" of my system, I have nothing to sell (except free info to help others who want to understand how I am using my green energy, whatever the type or make) and I would prefer anybody who does have something to sell; makes their sales pitch once and goes away. I don't care what anyone buys but my decision to buy from you would be more to do with your after sales abilities and you are not doing yourself any favours by being agressive.

People will just assume that if they buy any product from you and it has a problem (which is perfectly normal in business) that you might tell them to stick it up the preverbial.

Lets just stick to the non product related practical uses of green energy, you haven't contributed in that vain yet except come on and slag your competitors turbines, the fact that wind power won't work in Ireland and then the sudden miraculous conversion that wind power does actually work after all now that you have become a dealer. (This tells people more about YOU than your competitors)"

I accept your surprise at how much wind power there actually is; even if it seems like there shouldn't be, that has been my experience and I live on the outskirts of a town, where I work for a large medical multinational as an engineer. Not sure what the company car jab is about ??

No one has slagged of your products but I can't imagine it won't be long before Windsave and SP on this forum show up on goggle and the respective company's see your contribution to green energy.

It's a tacky way to do business. As you have a house the size of a hotel, I am going to assume that you run your business professionally and your technical knowledge would be prefered by me as your input on this forum.

wind man

Nordic wrote:

"and suddenly, you have no wind on your face on a sunny day and your turbine is pulling 15 Amps". I'm as surprised as you, if not more surprised. But this is mainly down to it being a 48V system and 3.6m diameter, 8m in the air. You don't get the energy from nowhere. A small surface power units or windsave unit won't do that....end of story.

QUOTE]

I just want to make an input on the above just in case anybody missunderstands the above comment.

It reads as if the the quoted turbine is only operating because it is 48V and 3.6 diameter and 8M in the air.

For the purpose of clarity, I feel it only fair to point out that the voltage is not a factor in a turbine, 12v, 24v, 36v or 48 volts all work. (The only consideration is the cost of your battery banks as battery's are standardised at 12 volts, (24v needs 2 batterys, and so on).[battery's for a 48 volt system will be well over 1000 EUR]

The blade diameter is only a factor of the loading of the generator, the bigger the generator, the bigger the blades need to be to turn it, but turbines are rated at m/s wind speed so if a small one or a big one starts at 3 m/s then its a function of wind not blade diameter.

The height is a deciding factor which is in the control of the user, the higher the better and turbines can be a lot higher or lower than 8m in practice. (the big consideration here is planning, noise and asethics of the turbine.)

In summary, there is an essence in some of the threads that a bigger turbine is better than a small one, (seems fairly logical that people should try to get as big an output as possible), but there is a trade-off

Trade-off is.

The bigger the turbine installation is > the less likely you are going to get planning, the more likely you are going to get complaints (one complaint is all it takes), the more noisier it will be, the more astethically challenged it will be; (ugly is a problem, in the planning officers eyes), and the more expensive it will be. (watch for hidden costs, etc)

It's just choice and your own location on how big you can buy. But make sure you have planning (micro will be exempt in a lot of cases) and you can hear one running silent before you buy. It could be an expensive mistake otherwise as turbines don't produce power when they are pilled up in your garage.

Other note to show you how vested interests are suceeding; as of last Monday in the North of Ireland, A pre planning application for your turbine, (you may well be refused as well and you don't get your 200 pounds back) now costs 200 STG to submit, was 35 STG last year and that government has set up a renewable energy promotions agency. Lets see what happens here in the Republic.

I warned in an earlier mail that homebrew energy would not be handed over without a big fight by vested interests. On one hand they are pushing green energy, etc and on the other hand they are satisfying the vested interests.

Can't say any more, but some private advice, if you are planning a house, put your renewable energy systems into the plans now and get it approved because the same is going to happen here in the south except worse.

bonkey

xonencentral wrote:

I live on the outskirts of a town, where I work for a large medical multinational as an engineer.

A large medical multinational that uses DSL for its internet connection?
Man, your employers are cheapskates.

(Reference: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=2566498&postcount=30)

Mods - yes - I know. Offtopic. But if you're gonna allow these two to continue this Punch-and-Judy show, I don't see why the rest of us shouldn't be allowed join in.

xonencentral

1 MB connection for 29 EUR inc VAT, I think its just that they got screwed for so long with Eircom on the leased line, I remember, IEP 16,000 pounds for what I think was a 2MB in 2000 if memory serves me. (Something about the nearest pop being in Galway)..

Topic over on my end, back to green stuff....

Nordic

xonencentral wrote:

Nordic,

Firstly, it's nice to to be nice and you are coming accross all the time as a very agressive individual, this does not show promise to good and courtious customer services as you quite clearly state you are in business.

I would prefer if we stopped talking about products as you can't even move off the subject without mentioning your 2 KW 48 volt wind turbine 8m height in every conversation.

Last Quote; 2kW (2.5kW peak) off-grid turbine with 8m tower, rectifier and inverter.

The one before Quote; Mine is off-grid system 2kW 48VDC 3 phase output turbine on 8m tower with four 176Ah batteries, and we were talking about veggie engines.

It might be best for no mention of products and if anybody wants info, let them do it privately. I am just trying to supply info on the "use" of my system, I have nothing to sell (except free info to help others who want to understand how I am using my green energy, whatever the type or make) and I would prefer anybody who does have something to sell; makes their sales pitch once and goes away. I don't care what anyone buys but my decision to buy from you would be more to do with your after sales abilities and you are not doing yourself any favours by being agressive.

People will just assume that if they buy any product from you and it has a problem (which is perfectly normal in business) that you might tell them to stick it up the preverbial.

Lets just stick to the non product related practical uses of green energy, you haven't contributed in that vain yet except come on and slag your competitors turbines, the fact that wind power won't work in Ireland and then the sudden miraculous conversion that wind power does actually work after all now that you have become a dealer. (This tells people more about YOU than your competitors)"

I accept your surprise at how much wind power there actually is; even if it seems like there shouldn't be, that has been my experience and I live on the outskirts of a town, where I work for a large medical multinational as an engineer. Not sure what the company car jab is about ??

No one has slagged of your products but I can't imagine it won't be long before Windsave and SP on this forum show up on goggle and the respective company's see your contribution to green energy.

It's a tacky way to do business. As you have a house the size of a hotel, I am going to assume that you run your business professionally and your technical knowledge would be prefered by me as your input on this forum.

For your information, I'm not trying to sell turbines to Forum users. At least 5 users have asked me to sell by private message and I refused each of them. Now where's your logic?
They know who they are and they ay well confirm on this forum.
Bye Guys. I'm out.

Greenman

xonencentral wrote:

I'll get the camera out.

Did you ever get any pics sorted? Very curious!!!

xonencentral

Took them but they are 2MB's in size, have to do a shrinking job first so I can post them.

air

Try irfanview.com, its a free download & can batch resize your photos for you in a flash if you want. Great image viewer also.

Lissavane

I just found this forum and most interesting topic. Was wondering what were minimum/maximum mounting heights for the SurfacePower turbine. I had a look at their website but couldn't find that info.

Lissavane

No need to reply to my previous post anymore. I think I've just copped on to the identity of xonencentral. He/she may live in Claremorris, Co Mayo, not far from Surface Power GHQ. ob

xonencentral

Sorry Lissavane, try Ballina instead.

We get our medical packaging done in the same printers as SP and during a ISO quality audit, I came across their work and just asked some questions, got the phone number of the area manager and priced the system, asked some questions.

I had a quote already from the UK for EUR10K for a Pro_ven 600, and I had decided to build my own one as they were too expensive; and it was something I had decided to do a long time ago but based on the price for the surfacepower unit, I just bought one. For what I got it was excellent value. I still feel I robbed them.

It was that simple, I was told that they were primarally exporting and there would be an Irish launch this summer.

Haven't seen anything yet so I guess it has still to happen.

Hope that satifies your curiosity.

CJhaughey

This is so Irish, as well as a general discussion about windfarms we have people second guessing whether other posters are posting with vested interests etc, no wonder it is so hard for the average punter to get decent information on any sort of DIY energy!!
Please stop the backbiting and petty remarks and just stick to good factual info and pictures:)

xonencentral

Heres the first pic..

The turbine is much bigger than it looks, especially at its install height, thats always the impression I get. Before I installed it and I had to carry it and the blades streched from my shins to my head.

I'll try and get the control system, (just one box) picture shrunk later today and put it up as well.

THere are only 2 parts to the system, turbine and integrated control system, for the thicko's like me, thats turbine cable in one side, electricity out the other. Thankfully no brain surgeons required.

Greenman

xonencentral wrote:

Heres the first pic..

The turbine is much bigger than it looks, especially at its install height, thats always the impression I get. Before I installed it and I had to carry it and the blades streched from my shins to my head.

I'll try and get the control system, (just one box) picture shrunk later today and put it up as well.

THere are only 2 parts to the system, turbine and integrated control system, for the thicko's like me, thats turbine cable in one side, electricity out the other. Thankfully no brain surgeons required.

Nice start to the pics looking forward to seeing how you have it hooked up!!!

CJhaughey

Great to see pics Xonencentral, I notice that Surfacepower have updated their website and now have a new model of turbine out SP750W I wonder is this a 750watt turbine?
Seems everywhere I look there is renewable energy shops being set up, I just hope people are getting good advice and products and not being shafted by fly-by-night operators.
keep posting on your experiences/pitfalls regarding the operation of the turbine.
What height is the Tower that you have the turbine on?

xonencentral

The height I have mine currently is the length of the scaffolding pole I got at 7m's for 30 euros'. I was going to put it higher but it seems to be fine and we have had some amazing weather in the last couple of months. I've been doing my homework on the solar side and I am going to start investing in some PV panels as well. Its actually daylight at the moment from after 4am.

I've also built a boxed radiator painted matt black as a temp solar panel test as a friend of mine has done just to see what the sun/lack of sun can do(cheap experiment). I'm contemplating some proper water panels to get my emersion up to 30, 40 degrees or higher if possible.

Had a look at the website, interesting changes, I dropped them a line and the told me that they have upgraded their solar input of the product to 300 watts and the website continuously is going to change over the next 2 weeks.

Will try and get other pics up as soon as I can shrink them.

They won't say what will be updated but they did tell me that they will be recognised as a manufacturer of urban renewable energy by the EU commision, and to watch the website for the details.

It strange, I've been a wanabe wind solar person for years but its such a large topic at the moment, is it all down to ESB, OIL prices or is life so expensive people want to start taking control of the daily costs where they can, that's where I fit in. The endless list of direct debits at the end of every month is depressing.

Does anybody make paper brickets, I recycle all my newspaper/paper and soak it for 2 weeks and then place it into moulds and press out bricks, great heat, 1 brick burns for a half an hour.

Greenman

xonencentral wrote:

Will try and get other pics up as soon as I can shrink them..

If you have XP and you send the pics to yourself they will compress automaticially, that might be of help!!!

Greenman

xonencentral wrote:

Does anybody make paper brickets, I recycle all my newspaper/paper and soak it for 2 weeks and then place it into moulds and press out bricks, great heat, 1 brick burns for a half an hour.

Thats worth a thread on its own, not sure its been done before.

Well done xonencentral.

xonencentral

Heres the control system and my own install of an additional trips switch box, (EUR18, I think). [The control box does all the trip things but I thought it was safer/smarter and it allows me to turn some things off if required without turning everything off].

Its very straight forward, The red/black cable going out the right goes to the battery, the other cable under it goes to the the turbine, then the other side, out comes the electricity and it goes into the trips.
One trip runs my 3 x 150 watt security lights, 1 trip runs my garden lights, 1 goes into my house and runs, TV, lights, chargers, radio, etc, and one goes into my shed and powers everything, lights, tools, sockets, etc, {when I can get away from the beer of course} see below.

That simple, It's got a proscessor and a few LED's that tells you things if you were ever to look. It leaves me alone and I leave it alone.

Oh, and the one that goes to the house powers 3 waterproof sockets in the garden as well mainly for music, beer, more beer, even more beer, at night, Light to see the beer so as to have more beer, you get the idea.

I did all the wiring myself. If you have a degree in "extension lead" engineering, its pretty easy from my experience.

The sun is currently splitting the stones, a beautiful afternoon in Ballina and the turbine is spinning away happily and silently. (you'd never think it as there is practically no wind), thats the bit that facinates me the most.

I'll put up a picture of my bricketts as well. My mould was made from pressure treated timber and I use 3 x 200mm (I think) blocks to press the mould overnight and a little jumping up and down as well, with beer of course...

CJhaughey

Nice going, I haven't really thought too hard about the PV side of solar, I am looking purely at the hot water side of solar.
interesting to see that the 7m pole is enough to give decent results.
I think I remember reading that 8m+ that requires planning permission ?

Mothman

Here is a post I made in the Alternative Heating - Grants thread on 6th April. Things haven't changed!

Mothman wrote:

Lads, a serious reality check is needed here about the payback time for wind generators, inc the Surface Power one.

Generally an annual windspeed of about 13-14mph is needed to have a payback time under 15 years. I can see that the surface power one has brought that timeframe down to under 10 years.

The problem with this is that there are very few of us exposed to a mean windspeed of anything near that high. The mean windspeed generally across the country is about 9mph....this is at 10m height. I've been recording windspeed since 1999, and my 10m mean is under 8mph

So if we take the 9mph speed example, that is if you can get the turbine up to that height, that is 4m/s windspeed, using the chart in the Surfacepower brochure, this would give you a saving of about eur18 per bill, or a little over eur100 per year. To cost the system you have to add batteries, some cabling, tower and installation, so can't see it being done for less than eur2000, so payback is heading for 20 years...

Some of the info on the Surfacepower site is very misleading. (I'm being polite)
http://www.surfacepower.com/index-9.html



There is not a site in these islands where a turbine can run at "full use" A 9mph site will have full use time of well under 1%, 14mph site near 10%



The only sites in Ireland with a payback time that short are perhaps some of the very exposed headlands such as Malin Head in a windy year, and only if you have the turbine mounted 20m or so up.



All this has to be costed and added onto the turbine price quoted. And bear in mind that batteries will probably need to be replaced during lifetime of turbine.

End of reality check

If you want to get an indication of windspeed at your site try here
http://esb2.net.weblink.ie/SEI/MapPage.asp

But these are at 50-100m heights above ground, windspeed at 10m levels are perhaps 70% of the 50m speeds.

It annoys (understatement) the misrepresentations made by Surfacepower on their website and in their brochure. That aside this product IMO sets a new benchmark in payback period and I think is an option for far more people in this country compared to other wind generators.

CJhaughey asked for facts, here are plenty of facts to chew on.

Here are 30 year annual wind speed at the synoptic stations. This is at 10m height except for Malin Head which is at 18m. Data available on Met eireann site http://www.met.ie/climate/30yearaverages.asp





As can be seen minimum mean speed at coastal site is Valentia with 5.6m/s, However some inland sites exceed this but not by much.

I have made up a table on a spreadsheet of how much electricity would be produced by the 560w Surfacepower unit. These won't be exact to nearest KW, but the bottom line, the payback should be reasonably accurate. The Surfacepower unit is made up of a 460w wing generator and 100w PV unit. If anything I've overstated the amount of wind power produce because the figures were calculated with a 500w generator in mind. I've no idea how much units the solar part with produce, but I've made a guesstimate of 150kw/annum. Even if it is 200kw, it'll make little difference to bottom line.

I've made other assumptions, these are a price of €2,000 installed. This is perhaps understating as the cost of batteries, installation and material for installation has to be included. Depends on how much work one does themselves. The current price of electricity at 12.2cent + VAT. The PSO levy stays the same regardless of usage. The price of electricity WILL go up so payback time will fall.





So if you are in a windy inland site, you may have annual speed of 11mph. Payback at current electricity prices is about 15 years, at a price of 16 cent/unit, 13 years and 20 cent/unit 10 years.

if you are at a site like the vast majority of us, then 9-10mph is more like it. Payabck is well in excess of 15 years and possibly 20+.

None of this takes account of maintenance cost, possible battery replacement. No mention of service life, but often this is about 30 years with wind generators.

I'm not involved in wind industry, but I really wanted a wind gennie but I've been recording the wind as part of my weather station since 1999 and my mean windspeed for that period is under 8mph. http://www.iol.ie/~wicklowweather/Monthlywind.htm

I do have solar panels for water heating though, again a potentionally long payback period depending on what fuel you are replacing.

Note that all wind speed figures are for 10m above ground. If you are siting gennie lower than that then wind speed will will be lower.

So my advice would be if you are in coastal areas, or well exposed inland areas, then this unit has got to be worth considering, otherwise I think doubtful from a payback point of view. I've ignored other reasons other than payback and the fact that by getting a unit, one becomes more concious of energy use and so consumption reduces as well.

Please point out any glaring inaccurracies (apart from spelling ) and I'll amend it.

air

Just on the PV output, I saw a reference to 750KWh per year from a 1kw PV array in the UK so I'd imagine you could reduce your estimate somewhat.
According to met eireann http://www.met.ie/climate/sunshine.asp we only have about 3.5hrs sunshine a day average.

Mothman

air wrote:

Just on the PV output, I saw a reference to 750KWh per year from a 1kw PV array in the UK so I'd imagine you could reduce your estimate somewhat.
According to met eireann http://www.met.ie/climate/sunshine.asp we only have about 3.5hrs sunshine a day average.

Thanks for that Air, I've amended the table and put in 75kwh.

For anyone else, I had put in 150kwh, so the lower figure increases payback period, not by much on windy sites, but quite a bit at the not so windy sites.

It should be noted that some of that 3.5hrs a day sunshine would be in morning and evening in Summertime and so would not even be shining on the solar panel.

Does anyone know the difference between sunshine and cloud as regards output. It makes a big difference with solar water collectors, but anyone knows that a solar powered calculator doesn't need sunshine for it to work.

air

By coincidence I actually finished putting together my home made 50w panel yesterday and tested it out.
I had a little fan hooked up to it all day & it spun away but it ran a 30w flourescent at the same time in bright but clouded conditions.
This anecdotal evidence suggests at least 60% output in clouded conditions.
I'll bring home the fluke next week & do some proper tests.

xonencentral

Mothman makes a very good point and it's this: if you analyize renewable energy with logical maths, you will convince yourself never to jump into it until it's too late and you'll be wrong !!!.

My experience (and it dosen't matter what type of green source or whose product it is, it's all going to be the same), the payback is far more complicated than simple maths and far quicker than anybody would realise.

I'll try and explain and as a starter, I don't analyize my wind/sun or anything else, I am a doer of things.

I got into wind power because firstly I have wanted to start the path to become green in many ways and I want to make a statement (plus the price was right). I intend to introduce PV solar, water solar and rain havesting, etc as time progresses and as prices of everything goes up, I will be fully there when everybody else realises they are late and everything has gotten very expensive.

The payback for me is firstly social. I am making a statement for the environment and am proud to do so.

The economic payback is far more complicated and only when you own a renewable energy system can you fully apprieciate this:
a) Conversion of ESB to free renewable energy (small at the start but hopefully self-sufficient within 6-7 years with gradual and generally un-noticable small investments).
b) A change of attitude to becoming more energy efficient. Most of the products in my house that waste electricity are small power items, DVD, TV, phone chargers, lights, etc all left on or in standby and these are all on my green system so everybody turns them off now, so I'm saving money just by having green energy.
c) Battery's, all my battery's are now rechargable, (somebody's great idea), and I am saving a fortune. I bought AA rechargables from Argos for 4.99 and I was buying Duracells for over 7 Euros every 2-3 weeks for my walkman and I won't even get into the bikes, remote's, clocks, toys, etc. This alone will pay for my turbine within the next few years and before anyone asks, I haven't done the maths on it, in fact the battery savings I am making will probably pay for all my green projects.

I've already worked out that I need my 500w output for about 6 hours every evening and I need an average of 125 watts a day to get that. Not a major challenge for my turbine or even Irelands mean wind speed in an ordinary location. No science degree required; 6 hours = 25% day, 125w x 4 = 500 watts.

Mothman is missing one vital piece of information, the end result.

There is no similarity between how I use my system and Mothmans theoretical calculations and the amount of money I am saving.

I would prefer if some people could stop trying to convince people not to do something when they don't do it themselves and hence in no position to deliver practical usefull help, guidance and information to other forum readers.

I have spent the money, I am living the experience and all I want to do here is present my experience which I thought this forum was all about.

Some simple maths:
a) Free Green electricity: lets say conservative EUR 25 per 2 months bill, Eur 150 per year. (I only use it for 6 hours a day)
b) Better use of electricity/ESB savings: lets say Eur 30 per 2 months bill, 180 per year.
c) Battery's: Lets say eur 180 per year conservative, ask your wife, I bet you'll be as sick as a small hospital when you find out how many battery's she buys.

Simple maths tell me even with my basic entry level system; I am better off to the tune of EUR 510 per year, which I will use to invest on increasing my reliance on additional green energy and when I'm clear of the ESB, I'll be saving the PSO charge and line rental charge as well.

BUT YOU MUST start the journey somewhere.

The only way to work out REAL payback is to work out how much money is in your wallet every week that shouldn't be there. It is just to simple to take a standard unit charge, it does not reflect REALITY.

I'm not even going to mention, power cuts, etc, feel good factor, a new lease of life in the garden, one up on the jones, etc, etc.

Lets keep the ideas going and let the NOer's go and spead the negative word somewhere else.

P.S. Air, that's good stuff, keep it coming.....you have me hooked.

Mothman

xonencentral wrote:

Mothman makes a very good point and it's this: if you analyize renewable energy with logical maths, you will convince yourself never to jump into it until it's too late and you'll be wrong !!!.

I'm making the point that most of us in Ireland don't have the same exposure to the wind resource that you have. That can't be ignored. This thread is about wind turbines. Because its good for you, doesn't automatically mean its good for everyone. Many of us like to make informed decisions. You have every right to jump in, and I respect that, but many others may like more info and so I'm sharing my experience of the bit of research I've done.

The payback for me is firstly social. I am making a statement for the environment and am proud to do so.

That is very important. My post and title of thread wasn't really about that. For many there may be many other better options for spending €2,000 to make a similar statement.

The economic payback is far more complicated and only when you own a renewable energy system can you fully apprieciate this:
a) Conversion of ESB to free renewable energy (small at the start but hopefully self-sufficient within 6-7 years with gradual and generally un-noticable small investments).
b) A change of attitude to becoming more energy efficient. Most of the products in my house that waste electricity are small power items, DVD, TV, phone chargers, lights, etc all left on or in standby and these are all on my green system so everybody turns them off now, so I'm saving money just by having green energy.
c) Battery's, all my battery's are now rechargable, (somebody's great idea), and I am saving a fortune. I bought AA rechargables from Argos for 4.99 and I was buying Duracells for over 7 Euros every 2-3 weeks for my walkman and I won't even get into the bikes, remote's, clocks, toys, etc. This alone will pay for my turbine within the next few years and before anyone asks, I haven't done the maths on it, in fact the battery savings I am making will probably pay for all my green projects.

Fact is that point a) is the only one that is directly from the turbine, the other 2 points are a change of mindset as of a result of getting the turbine. You could take down the turbine and still make the savings in b) & c). They are both very good tips and I endorse them.

I've already worked out that I need my 500w output for about 6 hours every evening and I need an average of 125 watts a day to get that. Not a major challenge for my turbine or even Irelands mean wind speed in an ordinary location. No science degree required; 6 hours = 25% day, 125w x 4 = 500 watts.

Mothman is missing one vital piece of information, the end result.

There is no similarity between how I use my system and Mothmans theoretical calculations and the amount of money I am saving.

You have a very good head for getting the best out of a system and perhaps anyone else reading this has as well.

I would prefer if some people could stop trying to convince people not to do something when they don't do it themselves and hence in no position to deliver practical usefull help, guidance and information to other forum readers.

I'm not trying to convince people not to do something. I'm presenting facts as I see it. I've have researched this when building my house in 1998. I've looked into it again this year since the entry of surfacepower and now that I've got 5 years of wind readings for my site. If I lived on the coast or higher up I would have got one 7 years ago. So I feel that I am in position to deliver practical usefull help, guidance and information to other forum readers.

I have spent the money, I am living the experience and all I want to do here is present my experience which I thought this forum was all about.

Yes and your experience is proof that this is an option worth considering, but the bulk of the population will not get as much electricity out of it as you.

Some simple maths:
a) Free Green electricity: lets say conservative EUR 25 per 2 months bill, Eur 150 per year. (I only use it for 6 hours a day)

Yes I'm sure you'll achieve that, and I agree possibly conservative, sadly for me I can only expect about €10 saving per 2 months bill with my site which is below average for wind.

b) Better use of electricity/ESB savings: lets say Eur 30 per 2 months bill, 180 per year.

You don't need a wind turbine to get this saving, in your case the turbine triggered the change of mindset.

c) Battery's: Lets say eur 180 per year conservative, ask your wife, I bet you'll be as sick as a small hospital when you find out how many battery's she buys.

Same as previous point. I've been using rechargeables for as long as I can remember.

Simple maths tell me even with my basic entry level system; I am better off to the tune of EUR 510 per year,

But using your maths, the wind turbine is only contributing €150 directly. The balance can be acheived without the turbine.

which I will use to invest on increasing my reliance on additional green energy and when I'm clear of the ESB, I'll be saving the PSO charge and line rental charge as well.

The country needs more of you. Perhaps you won't agree, but I think we are on the same side even if we are barking from different corners

BUT YOU MUST start the journey somewhere.

I have. I have solar collecters, my total ESB usage last year amounted to €550. I burn no oil and only use gas for the cooking hobs. House heating is by wood burning stove. Renewable and carbon neutral. So far I've mostly invested money on ways to decrease energy use

The only way to work out REAL payback is to work out how much money is in your wallet every week that shouldn't be there. It is just to simple to take a standard unit charge, it does not reflect REALITY.

Your wallet does start €2,000 lighter, and I feel many of us would like to have an idea of how quick it would fill back up.

I'm not even going to mention, power cuts, etc, feel good factor, a new lease of life in the garden, one up on the jones, etc, etc.

I agree important, but wind turbine is not only option to achieve this

Lets keep the ideas going and let the NOer's go and spead the negative word somewhere else.

I don't feel I'm being negative. As I said before many of us like to try make informed decisions and I'm supplying some of that info. I stuck mainly with the wind aspect as this is what this thread is about.

I've haven't written off totally the prospect of acquiring a wind turbine. I got my solar collectors based on a 30 year payback and the wind turbine now is round about 30 -40 year payback as well. So for the other 'payback' reasons that xonencentral has mentioned, its moving up my list of priorities. I have been put off Surfacepower just by the misinformation that they have on their website and in their brochure. I intend putting that to them and perhaps their response will make me see them in a better light.
That aside they're working on some great products and bringing the renewable option within reach of far more people than has been the case.

Greenman

I'm with you xonencentral. More power to your turbine.

I've been using rechargable batteries for 25 years.

Lived on a boat and got great pleasure with my little Rutland turbine.

I always cycle to work as it makes me feel good and less heavy on the world. Our family car dose about two trips a week.

I'll be getting a domestic wind turbine soon for my 15 meter free standing tower and I'll be interested in the "Feel good factor" not the "Pay back factor"

Mothman

air wrote:

By coincidence I actually finished putting together my home made 50w panel yesterday and tested it out.
I had a little fan hooked up to it all day & it spun away but it ran a 30w flourescent at the same time in bright but clouded conditions.
This anecdotal evidence suggests at least 60% output in clouded conditions.
I'll bring home the fluke next week & do some proper tests.

Excellent
I had a feeling that may be the case, unlike my experience of the solar waterheating collectors, which only function in direct sunshine

xonencentral

Mothman, You have moved up in my respect and evaluation considerably. You have given a constructive response to my view. I see you have a genuine point of view but I'm sure you see my point. I'd rather not be a politician but a provider of information.

The only point I would disagree with is that everybody can't participate in wind power. The EU cites Ireland as having 4 times more wind than anywhere else in Europe so if they can do it, we must. I don't live in any exceptional location, normal suburbia with houses all around and I'm happy with my decision so far and if I followed any advice , I wouldn't have jumped but am delighted that I have started the journey.

Any chance you could put some detail and info up on your solar water panels, I have just sourced/recycled 10 radiators and intend to build 10 solar water panels. Would be interested in your experience. How effective do you think 10 large panels would be in your experience.

I've added a picture of how strong my paper brickettes are as well.
Lets keep the techie/practical info going as I think thats what people want to hear.

Quote from current construct ireland magazine. "The potential for the production of electricity from small solar photovoltaic (PV) installations and from domestic sized wind turbines is often under estimated. Almost every single house could have its own PV panels built into the roof and many homes have potential for electricity generation from wind too. In theory, it is possible for a significant proportion of all domestic electricity to be met by home production."

Just thought people might find this interesting; www.constructireland.ie

xonencentral

Any Architects or others out there;

A friend of mine was told by his architect that if he added a green energy system into his house build, he would be reducing his Co2 usage and would get a better energy rating on his house when the new housing law come in March next, and hence increase the value of his house significantly?

Anybody got more info on this, I've done some web search's and I have found the Energy Performance of Buildings Directive, interesting stuff and I do remember Duncan warning about it on one of his shows but I wasn't listening at the time.

I'll do some more searching but It would be great if anybody can add to this.

Greenman

xonencentral wrote:

Anybody got more info on this, I've done some web search's and I have found the Energy Performance of Buildings Directive, interesting stuff and I do remember Duncan warning about it on one of his shows but I wasn't listening at the time.

I'll do some more searching but It would be great if anybody can add to this.

http://www.rte.ie/tv/aboutthehouse/5prog2future.html Is this of any help???

CJhaughey

AFAIK the Government was pushing to have this postponed till 2010 or some time way into the future, probably to continue to shelter the main contributors = Concrete and construction.
However seeing as this is an EU directive and Ireland is so far behind the Kyoto protocol as it is, It is highly likely that the govt will be forced into implementing it.

fearrchair

Found another DIY Wind Turbine Manufacture in Dingle.

Wonder how they compare to surface power and windsave.....

http://www.atlanticpowermaster.com/home.asp

Khannie

Nice pic of the paper bricks there xonencentral. Any chance of a new thread on this with details on how you make them? I'd love to make my waste paper into fuel.

Mothman: How do you measure your wind speed? Do you need specialised equipment for this? Is it expensive to do accurately? I'd like to measure my average wind speed before investing. I live in a coastal town, near the top of a hill.

Personally, I'd consider a dual system (wind and solar), even at a loss, once there wasn't a very large loss.

CJhaughey

Khannie
To measure windspeed you need an anemometer,Like this one
Or alternatively you can get a system that runs through your PC and constantly measures the wind speed.
I can't remember which company makes these kits but they shouldn't be too hard to source.
Remember to elevate your anemometer to the same height as the turbine would be to get a true reading.

xonencentral

Hi Khannie,

Paper bricks are easy, just use newspaper or any other light paper for the best results, tear up into strips as best you can. You need to soak in water for 2 weeks and then place into a mould leave overnight under pressure and find a dry shed space for them. They will dry in 12 weeks or 4 weeks in your hot press, and don't worry, they don't even drip after coming out of the mould.

I made my mould from timber and place some big blocks on them but I'd like to get a mechanical press somewhere if anybody comes accross one, I seen one years ago when I couldn't find enough places to blow my money quick enough so I didn't pay attention as usual.

And I am celebrating today, just got my new electricity bill where I have been running my turbine for the last 2 months and I haven't been that concious of using it all the time but my bill is EUR 82 and its not estimated. Not bad for a 2,500 sq ft house. I have to admit I'm kinda surprised that I have gotten to that amount so quickly, "surprised maybe but not complaining ". and just as the ESB are about to put the price up again. My units are now costing me 18.8 c a unit all in.

Thanks for the link Greenman, thats the very programme, I wonder will it be repeated so I can pay attention this time. I have got more info on the energy labelling item, it seems to all concerned that it will in fact come in next year as the fines on Ireland (taxpayer, what's new !) will be enormous if it dosen't.

Apparently, it is very easy to work out how to make your house better.

Every house will get a rating, i.e. XX KW's per year, anything which lowers it will make it better, (increase the value of your property) so these were the examples I was given, (I found some of them interesting).

a) Add extra heat insulation into walls, roof, etc ( rating goes UP)
b) Add a renewable energy system (Rating goes UP)
c) Take out your garden lights, light on the holy rosary, etc (Rating goes UP)
d) Use a rainwater harvesting system, no processing of your water at the treatment plant is a saving of Co2 (Rating goes UP)
e) Put a push button timer on your emersion instead of switch (Rating goes UP)
f) Add a water barrell to the end of your drainpipe for washing car/watering garden, etc (Rating goes UP)

You get the drift. I just found it ironic that some of the enormous houses with more lights than your local village could be the ones facing the largest problems in value under the directive.

Anyone watching coronation street and Roy's uncles invention of converting door opening/closing into energy. IT'S A MAD WORLD WE LIVE IN ! :eek:

xonencentral

Sorry, ( Rating goes UP ) means good, more value in your house.

I was given one word of warning though by someone; They told me that if you are about to sell your house when the new Directive is in place and you run around pulling out your garden lights, putting a turbine, adding a barrell, etc, etc. It will be a waste of money as the energy assessor will survey your last 12 months electricity/gas/water/waste whatever bills and is more likely to come to the conclusion that you are horrendous wasters of energy given all the green stuff available and give the house a worse rating.

Moral of the story, do the changes at least 12 months in advance of your rental/sale audit so it can show up on the bills. (Makes sense I suppose)

air

xonecentral, how are the bricks to burn?
Are they smokey?

Greenman

air wrote:

xonecentral, how are the bricks to burn?
Are they smokey?

Are thet smelly???