Affordable DIY Wind Turbines- Produce your own affordable electricity

GG66

Sligo Bear, Interesting as it is I'm going to takes keeks advice & stay off the interconnectors topic, it took me ages already to get this far into the thread. BTW to add quotes use the icon 4th from right above the text area when your posting, hover you mouse over it and you'll get explaantion text for icons.

What other systems did you price?

I need someones input on this one. Is it wise to compare these two systems or am I seeing this all wrong. They are not exactly the same set up but both have about a 1.5kw rated power. I realise one has more PVs so likely to do better during summer. I'm just picking this info from their web sites to try and get a comparative estimate.

Surface Power - €9999

2x460w turbines
PV 6 x 100w panels
2x Control systems
4x 270ah deep cycle batteries (3kw source)
600 watt inverter system
2kw inverter system

Westwind - 11289.00
PV 12x80w
Proven WT600 (600w)
Solar Charge controller

ok, so westwind doesn't have prices for batteries or inverters but if I use surface powers prices it adds about €3000.

What am I missing? Feedback most welcome

xonencentral

I can help on this one:

The cheapest price I got quoted for a Proven 600 was from the factory
at Euros 18,350 inc vat but not delivery but installed. (Cheapest dealer price was 18,500 but it was if the installation was prepared and basic with no complications, couldn't confirm what this was until I purchased and they came out to the site):cool:
(Installation was mandatory for warranty, this was about a year and a half ago). The turbine price you quoted was just the turbine head which based on my system is only a small part of the whole system.

So to compare, it is more like including VAT:
Proven 600W Installed - 18,350
Solar PV 12 x 80 watt - 6,955.08
PV Controller - 192.39
Battery's & Inverters - 3000 as you have used but that might be optimistic.
Total -- Euros 28,497 plus delivery
SP 9,999 plus free delivery and no forced installation and no planning. Some difference (That was where I got to after many months.)

Oh, and it was also suggested that I did a wind test for a couple of months which would cost up to 5K depending on location. (:eek: ), I live in Ireland, no thanks !!!

(I don't know if there is also an installation charge for the solar to get the warranty, but this was the nub of it for me, expensive prices but bigger was unnecessary installation costs, although I have seen a proven installation and it is quite complicated in fairness)
You also need planning for the Proven and my advice was that this could be problematic, firstly, I was told that as there was a noise rating, I would have to show the planning officer a system so he could have the environmental (noise pollution) officer test it, but as it was not in compliance with the departments wind turbine guidelines (colour, etc), it would be risky. It was more likely they would say no so they wouldn't have to get involved in any problems with neighbours, etc. (I do remember that 2.6 metre blade span of the p600 was mentioned as a possible issue)

God, it took me months to trawl through information and hidden prices. One quote I got from the UK for a system was for one battery and the turbine and the quote had no output equipment at all. (Very expensive battery charger at Euro 14,500), but no information was forthcoming about this, I had to figure it out. This is what I liked about surfacepower, never mind their prices but they provide a lot of helpful information, their prices were final and complete.

Hope this helps.

GG66

The cheapest price I got quoted for a Proven 600 was from the factory at Euros 18,350 inc vat but not delivery but installed.

Thanks Xeon, but I have trouble reconciling your figures with mine in relation to the proven turbine. Has it come down in price that much or what components am I missing that could drive up the cost that much? mast must be extra, installation what else for 14k more?

Westwind
Proven 600W Installed - 4101.9
Solar PV 12 x 80 watt - 6,955.08
PV Controller - 192.39
Battery's & Inverters - 3000 (estimate based on surfacepower prices)

Total 14289.00

Admit its still more expensive than surfacepower, so if you can enlighten me on the additional costs I'm missing out I'd be v grateful.

Westwind offer a Site Survey for €363 + travel which may not be a bad investment to ensure you have the right system. They won't recommend a system without one which does make sense.

xonencentral

Hi,

The following were on one of the quote's but I can't remember if it was a dealer or the factory, prices listed are yours:

a) Wind Turbine 4101.9
b) Mast & Foundation system ??
c) Charging Controller ??
d) Battery bank ??
e) Trace Inverter (expensive inverter) ?? (I think 1.5kW is about STG 1500)
f) Packaging ??
g) Delivery ??
h) Windtest 345 + travel
i) Installation ?? (I think this was 4K all in)
j) VAT 21%


All this came to 18,350 - 18,500 and you need a crane of some description for installation. You'll need to add in the solar, etc.

I can't find the quote but I did state "very strongly" that I was taking out a loan and I needed to know how much a commissioned system would cost, and the quote was all I was going to part with for a full installation (i.e., no hidden charges, final price).

Just came accross this while looking for one of those dealers, http://www.oceansolar.com/oceansolar/rejwintur1.html

They have an audio file of a 600 watt pruven as well.

Just ring them and ask them for a full quote, tell them that you want to know how much to borrow, that way they'll have to tell you the full price if they want to get paid.

This is what I got when I did this, I don't think their prices have come down.

air

GG66 wrote:

Surface Power - €9999

2x460w turbines
PV 6 x 100w panels
2x Control systems
4x 270ah deep cycle batteries (3kw source)
600 watt inverter system
2kw inverter system

Westwind - 11289.00
PV 12x80w
Proven WT600 (600w)
Solar Charge controller

What you need to look at is how many kwh per day per euro each system will bring you. This is the only way to make a true comparision.

Making simplifications and assuming efficiences on both systems are the same I see it like this:

SURFACE POWER SYSTEM

---

MIDSUMMER OUTPUT

Wind - .960 * 5 = 4.8Kwh
Solar - .6 *10 = 6Kwh
Total Output - 10.8 Kwh per day

MIDWINTER OUTPUT
Wind - .960 * 5 = 4.8Kwh
Solar - .6 *1.5 = .9Kwh
Total Output - 5.7 Kwh per day

Annualised Average Daily Output - 8.25Kwh
Cost Per Kwh per Day = (9999/8.25)= 1212 euro approx



WESTWIND SYSTEM

---

MIDSUMMER OUTPUT

Wind - .60 * 5 = 3Kwh
Solar - .96 *10 = 9.6Kwh
Total Output - 12.6 Kwh per day

MIDWINTER OUTPUT
Wind - .60 * 5 = 3Kwh
Solar - .96 *1.5 = 1.44Kwh
Total Output - 4.44 Kwh per day

Annualised Average Daily Output - 8.52Kwh
Cost Per Kwh per Day = (14289/8.52)= 1677 euro approx

---

A few caveats here:
1.) My wind factor is based on Hugh Piggots assertion that his 2.4m 500W turbine will produce approx 2.5Kwh per day (IIRC). I think that this might be slightly higher in ireland so the factor possibly needs adjustment.

2.) This is a bit of an apples to oranges comparsion really, there is a different wind:solar ratio (1.6:1 vs .625:1) across the two systems and this serves to highlight the advantage of wind over solar in this country rather than telling us anything about the value offered by these two suppliers.
IMHO the wind: solar balance should be closer to that offered by SP than by Westwind.
Solar's main use should really be to get you through the odd spell of calm weather (which you'd be hoping would come in the summer).

3.) The solar factor was calculated based on the very useful table which xonecentral posted a while back giving us valuable information on the expected output of a PV at our latitude - thanks go to xone here.

Other Points to Note:
1.)That the battery bank is capable of a 3Kw output is immaterial when you have a 600W inverter.
Furthermore discharging your bank at these rates wont do anything to prolong the life of your batteries. Max discharge should be kept to C/10 or lessfor optimum battery life.

2.) I had a look at the westwind site after I did the above calcs and if you take the midpoint of their predicted energy production range for the .6-1m turbines(1400-3800)kwh per year, this comes out at about 7kwh per day.
This isnt a million miles away from my predictions.

3.) Interestingly Surface Power seem to have some of the same difficulties regarding the use of units of power and energy as Xone had at one point.
In the description of the system which you mention, they describe the 4 x 270AH bank of batteries as being a 13Kw system.
What they are trying to say is that it is a 13Kwh system.

This is calculated based on the battery voltage (12V), capacity (270Ah) and quanity (4).
In order to calculate how much energy a battery bank will store you multiply Power by Time.
Capacity is measured in ampere hours - theoretically a 270Ah will provide 270A for one hour or 1A for 270 hours.
So using Energy=Power x Time, Capacity = (270x12) x 1= 3.24Kwh
Multiplying this by 4 gives roughly 12.96Kwh.
However you would need to reduce this by about 30% in the real world so I would say their bank would be good for about 9Kwh of storage.

You should take this into account when looking at your harvesting ability vs energy usage.
Personally I think I would like to be able to store about 2 -3 times my daily harvest to get through "lean" periods.
I'm not sure of the accepted multiplier used in the industry is for this but I think its reasonable to plan to be able to get through two to three days in the winter without wind.

Overall though, a lack of understanding of basic units by a supplier would not inspire any confidience in me.

4) I dont see any detail on the 460w turbines on the SP website. I'd be interested to compare their swept area to that of the Proven turbine.
Also AFAIK, Proven are a much better known brand name with a long track record in the industry (a "proven" record even;) ) vs the unbranded SP units

xonencentral

Wouldn't it be ?

SURFACE POWER SYSTEM

---

MIDSUMMER OUTPUT

Wind - .960 * 5 = 4.8Kwh
Solar - .6 *10 = 6Kwh
Total Output - 10.8 Kwh per day

MIDWINTER OUTPUT
Wind - .960 * 5 = 4.8Kwh
Solar - .6 *1.5 = .9Kwh
Total Output - 5.7 Kwh per day

Annualised Average Daily Output - 8.25Kwh
Cost Per Kwh per Day = (9999/8.25)= 1212 euro approx



Proven SYSTEM

---

MIDSUMMER OUTPUT

Wind - .60 * 5 = 3Kwh
Solar - .96 *10 = 9.6Kwh
Total Output - 12.6 Kwh per day

MIDWINTER OUTPUT
Wind - .60 * 5 = 3Kwh
Solar - .96 *1.5 = 1.44Kwh
Total Output - 4.44 Kwh per day

Annualised Average Daily Output - 8.52Kwh
Cost Per Kwh per Day = (28497/8.52)= 3344 euro approx

---

I used air's figures as well, he seems to know what he's talking about. I'm too tired to even attempt to come up with my own.

Did you hear the 65 million for renewable energy in the budget, will the consumer see any of it ?? Apparently the dept will deploy this, maybe they'll need to paint a few of their houses ?

I notice he used the words renewable HEAT only, is that a sign that electricity is protected?, I just heard morning Ireland on the way home (nightshift) and they reckon the budget is going to buy our way out of carbon emissions instead of doing anything about it.

Is their any way we can tell that pr*ck COWEN that that's our money he using to protect business and anybody else that is producing climate change Co2. Isn't CRH producing one third and ESB producing two thirds, CRH was involved in the ansbacker and Charlie haughey was in there somewhere as well, all FF... (Sorry, very tired & less diplomatic than normal) but this is really becoming a farce, time for a new government...now FG's 500 euros' seems excellent for renewables, anyone know what the greens position is on grants & emissions. I think we need them at this stage.

I say business directly as IBEC's environmental rep was on the radio and he supports this move to buy our way out of the fines we're are facing ???, figures............

turbine?

Air, caveat 1.
Hugh Piggots calculation is based on a 5m/s average windspeed, a 2.4m swept area and a power factor co-efficient.

Avg Wh = 0.14 x windspeed^3 x swept area^2

Avg Wh = 0.14 x 125 x 5.76

Avg Wh = 100.8

Avg Wh x 24 = 2,419.2kWh/day

Appx 2.5kWh/day

Question? how did the co-efficient of 0.14 come about? There is a reference to it in a course I studied but I didn't look it up.

For my planned location the avg windspeed is 7.5 -8 m/s giving me an estimated output of appx 10kWh from same turbine. woo hoo.;)

air

xone, I based my westwind calculations on the quoted figure of (Total 14289.00) in an earlier post.
Turbine, yes I had an idea that Hughs estimate would have been based on a lower mean windspeed (as luckily ours is unusually high) - hence caveat #1 above.

As for the .14 I think it would have a lot of factors involved in it.
For example, the energy in wind of a certain speed is indeed related to the cube of the wind speed as you say, however there is only a certain amount of this that can theoretically (sorry xone I'm at it again) be harvested.
The air needs to have some energy left after the turbine to exit the area behind it etc.
As I understand it, the current breed of modern turbines are very close to the theoretical max energy extraction per unit of swept area and there will be no further significant increases in efficiency here - I.E. they've more or less optomised them at this stage.
There may of course be advances in cheaper construction / design methods etc which may improve wind viability.

Other factors contributing to the .14 figure could be things like typical wind speed distribution graphs (standard bell shaped curve I'm sure) and possibly some other pseudo random variables based on empirical experience.

Turbine , on the third line of your calcs is the decimal point in the right place?
Do you mean to say that the average power output is 100W with total energy harvested of 2.4kwh per day?
I'm just slightly confused looking at it.

turbine?

Air you right me wrong!!

Line 3 should be Avg Wh = 100.8

as should all the other kWh in calculation (except last), or move decimal point!!

air

No bother. Just on a point of interest, the ability to harvest 10Kwh of energy per day with a 2.4m turbine is pretty excellent. I'd love if more people with one off houses got interested in doing it.
I'm slowly piecing together the parts for Hugh's 2.4 at the moment and hopefully will have it built within a few months.
I'll post info on the total costs & part sources used when its finished.

turbine?

About the same stage as I am so!!
Comparing prices and sourcing parts, Magnets def seem to be the hardest things to get various prices on (read you cant get 24 grade 40 magnets cheap!!)
The way I see it, the turbine is a well designed, tested and field proven unit. It should perform well, maybe not 10kWh per day, I don't know the specific windspeeds for my site, that previous figure is based on sei wind map data and cork airport windspeed averages.
But even if it only ticks away making 2kWh a day it will still pay for itself, and the enjoyment of making a wind turbine, learning something new, well that is its own reward also.

air

The turbine is definitely a proven and solid design, its from the brick s***house school of design as far as I can ascertain.
The main factors effecting your energy yield will be your siting and the height of your tower.
Ideally if your tower is x metres high you want at least 10x clear distance on all sides.
I would be confident enough that the map based mean wind speed would be a good indicator if you have a reasonable site.
I'd agree that its the making where the pleasure is. Also if you dont put a price on your own time - (which one shouldnt for pleasureable endeavours ) then the ecnomics of installing a turbine are greatly improved by home building.

turbine?

I agree. And ,if at a future date you want to add more, you can make your own again or add a sp or proven or whatever, the battery bank, inverter and other auxiliaries will already be in place.
Talking of battery banks have you sourced one yet? I think it will be the most expensive part of the system if you have to buy new. I'm putting out feelers at the moment into old forklift batteries but havent heard anything back yet.

sligo_bear

I thought I might add this bit of info from today's Irish Times page 21:

It seems somebody is talking out of shop but I'll put it up here as I know papers will be hard to get due to the budget.

The number of amber alerts "warning of potential shortages" in the electricity system have doubled this year to 50. The republic also had a "red alert" in August. According to the regulator, a record was achieved in Nov when the system needed 238 MWs from Wind farms and 108MWs from the NI interconnector to meet demand to supply the grid.

Some industry sources within power plants, in order to balance supply & demand , "load shedding" - cutting off certain parts of the country for periods to balance the grid - has occured. An ESB spokesman refused to comment.

My input is: if you loose power and I already know lots of people/areas do on occasion as this is the only way to keep the network stable, you will be told of the contractor who dug up a cable or some other story but thats what people are told to say. They would be breaching their contract with you otherwise and you could possibly sue them.

There is a big worry that christmas and new year and cold weather in January due to high electricity demand due to the fact that people have cut back on Oil, etc.

The future is that power cuts are coming to a place near you and stocking up on candles is my recomendation, by the way I would question the 60 amber alerts and 1 red, my information is that its a lot worse than that.

Just a note on inverters, don't buy cheap ones unless you like a buzzing on your lights and tv's, and the cheapest ones don't even turn a motor. They are all "modified" as they are electronic, but you need signal modification to true sine or pure sine to operate a household appliance.

Takeshi_Kovacs

to all those building their own turbine... don't forget to set up a blog or website, to record yer progress..
it would be handy learning tool for the others toying with the idea (me:D )

air

I was at my friend's place today & progress is good with the 2.4m turbine. He has all the magnets mounted on the steel discs, mould made for the stator, wire winder made, hub & threaded rod etc done.
I'd put a blog up but there's already plenty of construction info etc on otherpower.com as well as other places.

WRT the electricity demand status, it has been ultra tight for the last few years. I would expect the frequency of power cuts to increase all right.
I dont think that consumers have any right to sue however, the ESB has guarantee supply contracts to lots of large industrial facilities - Intel in Leixslip etc that it guarantees consistent power to.
If there is a shortage, I'm pretty sure that domestic users will be cut off to avoid having to pay out penalties to the large industrial users.

Turbine, regarding batteries, I have a line on some deep cycle AGM units from GSM base station swap outs. Not sure if I'll be able to pick any up yet though.
I'm reliably informed that pretty much any good quality old deep cycle batteries with intact plates can be desulphated although the process isnt trivial.

Takeshi_Kovacs

didn't know ye'd already started building the turbine, Air (well,the friend that is)
anyways , are ye gonna carve the airfoils yerselves, or get a carpenter to do it..

air

Not sure yet, he was talking about getting some fibreglass ones from the states at a reasonable price.
I was considering getting foam cores cut (or hot wiring them myself) and vacuum bagging a set.
I might build another one myself when we finish the first one.
A lot of the work goes into making the moulds and magnet templates etc & like everything else repeating it is always easier than the first time round.

GG66

Air, BTW thanks for posting those calculations on the SP v Westwind solutions. haven't got time these days to post much but it's certainly useful.

Keeks

I've moved this post (sorry xone) from this thread because it doesn't realte to DIY turbines and their construction. I should have started doing this a long time ago, but this thread has the world of valuable information in it, and its getting lost with a lot of off-topic material.

If you want to highlight enenry concerns or other issues with power regualtion, don't be afraid to start new topics and discussions. no need to cram them all into one thread. People will have a better chance of seeing them on their own anyway.

nobodythere

Inverter, off-grid, on-grid blah blah - how do I find out what all this means?

air

grasshopa wrote:

Inverter, off-grid, on-grid blah blah - how do I find out what all this means?

Use google, wikipedia or whatever, there is virtually nothing that you cannot learn about online.

As a general rule I think that if you are interested in learning about a new topic you should spend about 6 months reading up on it before you ask any questions in forums etc.
At this stage there is enough info posted on the web that by searching you should be able to avoid posting questions about the initial basics.
An inverter is a device which allows a source of DC to provide AC power.
Using such a device you can run normal household appliances that run off the mains (AC) from your battery bank (DC).

Off grid refers to a house / installation that does not rely on the mains electricity grid (ESB) to provide it with electricity.

Voyager II

Look what I found today on ebay http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Wind-Turbine-Generator-400-Watts_W0QQitemZ7737111354QQcategoryZ1280QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Same mill as SP without the inverter. Cheap Cheap:)

MontgomeryClift

Would a moderator consider splitting this thread in to 1) useful experience with wind power generation, 2) asinine wrangling about figures and theoretics and 3) other green energy experience and advice. I'd like to read the useful information about wind power but the "other stuff" is getting in my way.

Keeks

I inclined not to do that because this is a discussion board and that is the path that this discussion took. There is some off-topic stuff here from what started the thread, but it is all relevant to energy-efficiency and using renewable energies.

What I might do is take all the relevant information and do up some biki pages so that the information is easier to understand. But it will be a while before i will be able to start that casue work is crazy at the moment!

air

Voyager II wrote:

Look what I found today on ebay http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Wind-Turbine-Generator-400-Watts_W0QQitemZ7737111354QQcategoryZ1280QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Same mill as SP without the inverter. Cheap Cheap:)

With a 1.4m rotor diameter it would do well to keep your clock radio going, a waste of money IMHO.
The only application I can see for that size of turbine is something like the IrishWan repeater nodes (where they are using turbines on some remote sites) where the average power consumption is 20 -30 watts.
If it managed the same efficiency as the Hugh Pigott 2.4m turbine, I would guesstimate that it would produce a max of about 3kwh per day in Ireland.

stonecipher

How about the licencing of these turbines, I understand that any electrical equipment thats connected to the grid requires a generation licence from the Commission for Energy Regulation www.cer.ie .

I was just wondering has anybody gone down this route? or has anyone sought grants from Sustainable Energy Ireland www.sei.ie

air

Not if it's not grid connected.

Mike_C

Hi, just out of curiousity I wonder if the op could update us on his energy production over the past few weeks as there has been so much frost as very little wind or sun

Takeshi_Kovacs

Mike_C wrote:

Hi, just out of curiousity I wonder if the op could update us on his energy production over the past few weeks as there has been so much frost as very little wind or sun

Yeah it seems this thread has been lingering in the doldrums for a while...
Also how is Air getting on with his turbine project?

mayhem#

There's a company in Wexford that sells turbines, solar panels and the likes.
Seems like a good crowd.
Contact details are:
www.solire.com
T: 053/9128476
E: solire@eircom.net

E.

endplate

mayhem# wrote:

Contact details are:
www.solire.com


E.

Link is expired

Cuauhtemoc

Another company who supply wind turbines...

www.sunstreamenergy.ie.

Price for a 750w turbine - €2100 supplied(inc vat but not including mast or installation)

Has anyone any experience with them? Or of their turbines?

C.

gizbon

just a note i got onto Fingal co co today re a micro wind turbine and was advised to apply for permission in the usual way, plans, sign, paper notification details on the turbine etc etc added cost and time, was hoping to start with Surface power option 4 but will have to see will it be worth the hassle
My house would be classed as residential but is detached with separate garage to the side and good size gardens front and back on a main road, was hoping to attach the turbine to the cable end at rear of the garage and would be seen from the front, I could put it to the back right hand corner of the garden but would be seen from houses to the back (chance for objection)

Anybody in the Dublin area installed one or have any advise

I was going to just put it up and see what happened and apply for retention if it became an issue but if they refused me it would have to come down and would be a costly chance to take

fingal also said that there was no real guide lines but i suppose case by case will be the order of the day

Richard

Cuauhtemoc

Surface power maintain that those turbines do not require planning permission.

Email them at surfacepower@surfacepower.com and ask them to point you to info that confirms this. I find they are quite good at replying to emails.

I think the info was in this thread somewhere as well.

C.

damiand

Dont mind what surface power say, the erection of a wind turbine requires planning permission.

The first question is 'does the erection of a wind turbine, associated tower, etc constitute development or in its erection require that works be undertaken ?'. The answer is yes.

The second follow on question is then 'is the erection of a wind turbine, associated tower, etc listed in Schedule 2 of the Planning and Development Regulations 2001 to 2005 as exempted development'. The answer is no.

As the erection of a wind turbine, associated tower, etc is not listed as being exempt development, it constitutes development and therefore requires that Planning Permission be applied for and granted prior to its erection.

I wouldnt go down the 'Retention Application' route. Very bad idea.

Cuauhtemoc

This sounds familiar;

I went through this as well (with the plonker in the planning office who I talked to) but in fairness they didn't know and it was their first query for a small wind turbine.

When I pointed out that the smallest turbine refered to in that document was 50 metres tall and the largest was 200 metres tall (the smallest turbine was 50 metres tall not the tower), (it can be downloaded from the dept free),

#they went, oh is that not what you want,

I said no its a small one

#She said, this covers small ones.

I said, for *#@ks sake, I don't mean small wind FARM turbines, I mean small home turbine.

#She rang me back, we don't have any guidlines on that, what is it.

I said its a small turbine, home based, like a satalite dish

#She said, oh, satallite dishes are exempt if behind the house but we only have the departments guidelines to work from.

I said, AAAAARRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG.

Anyhow, I rang my local energy agency (in the county council) and within 2 minutes they told me to just put the dam thing up and stop looking for complications from the planning office, they have enough to be doing, I told them it was a Surfacepower unit, I'm not sure if the advice was on that basis or a general statement because I was told that noise is their biggest fear with turbines (annoying neighbours, etc) and the SP unit is silent so that might have been important.

So I did and nothing, in fact council engineers called to my house twice to see if they could use it themselves in projects for the council.

So, thats my experience...never looked back

I have since found out that it is in fact exempt because its silent, white in colour and it is mounted on a single pole aerial mounting structure which is exempted development under the 2001 planning act, you can download that as well from somewhere. (its states that aerial mounting structures are exempted development to 6 metres above the roof line of the house, it also states that there is no need to notify the council planning office of exempted developments), I think its in the appendix.

This was the info from earlier in the thread.
Not sure if it's correct.

MysterFixIt

Sorry is it has already been posted to death but EcoLogics site is worth a look at: http://www.ecologics.ie/?page_id=5


http://wood-pellet-ireland.blogspot.com/

miser

I am watching this thread with some amusement and wondering to myself has anyone even began to think outside the box.
i spoke with a small company who seem to be unique in that they seem to have been working on the energy problem long before it became an energy crises, in fact they have been developing a new electric underfloor heating system over the past 4 years and are ready to release it to the market. you might ask what is unique about another form of electric underfloor heating? well for one thing it was designed with wind energy in mind and from the info they gave me I'm impressed. the point I'm making is that there are real alternatives but you have to accept that there are no magic answers, at the moment, just logical approaches to controlling old habits- and bear in mind whatever happens carbon fuels there will always be options to produce electricity long into the future. checkout www.airoption.com
I wonder is there a deliberate policy by government not to support home wind generation? is it something to do with the fact that they would lose VAT on any power generated from small scale home generation. what is standing in the way of support for micro wind systems, and I'm not just talking financial.

Lissavane

I wonder if miser, who is promoting "airoption.com", is connected with xonecentral who introduced us to "surfacepower" some time ago. The style of writing and manner of operation are remarkably similar.

piraka

MISER wrote:

I wonder is there a deliberate policy by government not to support home wind generation?

It could be that it is not viable, checkout this forum.

http://www.yes2wind.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=388

miser

Lissavane wrote:

I wonder if miser, who is promoting "airoption.com", is connected with xonecentral who introduced us to "surfacepower" some time ago. The style of writing and manner of operation are remarkably similar.

Not exactly the constructive response I would have expected, so just to put the record straight no I 'm not connected to xonecentral, and yes I make no appologies for promoting any company that will force prices of quality equipment down to affordable levels. I have a huge interest in promoting any form of free energy, as it pisses me off to drive around the country and not see a handful of wind turbines. I then ask myself why? and when I shop around to buy a wind turbine I find the prices are the same everywhere. Why?????.....
So is it not about time that we started to have a serious debate as to why people are not flocking to take up the option of wind or solar energy.

CJhaughey

Miser
Don't even reply to Lissavane it is just a troll,it never contributed anything useful to this thread apart from snide comments.

miser

piraka wrote:

It could be that it is not viable, checkout this forum.

In response to this excuse of a reply, why is it that people cannot make a valid argument for themselves? WHY is it not Viable?.
I have an applet from airoption that clearly demonstrates the cost V payback over any given number of years, a brilliant simple guide. I will ask them if it can be posted, not sure how to do it myself. But like I said earlier is'nt it a question of cost. If you can buy good equipment at reasonable prices, Why will it not be viable.

piraka

miser wrote:

piraka wrote:

It could be that it is not viable, checkout this forum.

In response to this excuse of a reply, why is it that people cannot make a valid argument for themselves? WHY is it not Viable?.
I have an applet from airoption that clearly demonstrates the cost V payback over any given number of years, a brilliant simple guide. I will ask them if it can be posted, not sure how to do it myself. But like I said earlier is'nt it a question of cost. If you can buy good equipment at reasonable prices, Why will it not be viable.

Airoption is in the business of selling, so they will give great bumph, with the truth buried somewhere in the middle. Exactly like the large wind companies in Ireland.

This is the experience of one of the posters on the thread above, if you bothered to read it.

Boggle

Airoption is in the business of selling, so they will give great bumph, with the truth buried somewhere in the middle. Exactly like the large wind companies in Ireland.

Guess what... no matter what you buy and who you buy it off the onus is on YOU to do your research!

Saying that someone somewhere got burned by some company somewhere is no argument at all.

Ignorance may be bliss mate, but it makes for one crap argument!!:D

rockbeer

Fascinating thread, and a real eye-opener in many ways.
It seems as though a lot of the original participants have left the building, which is a shame. I'd love to know how xone is getting on now, a year later.

Also, I have some questions for you Air if you're still following:

1. Are you saying basically that you don't believe a small turbine in a domestic setting such as that sold by SP can be effective under any circumstances? That's what I took from a number of your posts, but I'd appreciate it if you could clarify this in simple, non-scientific terms please.

2. You said at one point that anybody who's considering getting into alternative energy should inform themselves on the science. I have to say I find this prospect daunting; I've never been good with this kind of information, and although I've made serious efforts to read and understand your more scientific posts I find it very hard to grasp some of the concepts involved. In your opinion does this rule me out of the green energy equation? What would you have me do, keep on subsidising the ESB simply because I'm not scientifically minded? I can't be the only person who finds this hard to accept. Surely there is some simple and understandable approach that would help me make sensible decisions on how to invest. Surely you can't be saying that it's up to scientists alone to save the planet in the face of mass incomprehension??

3. How would you value the non-economic factors involved in purchasing wind power equipment? What I'm saying here is that I believe wind energy to be a potentially worthwhile investment even if it turns out to be as or more expensive than buying from the grid, whereas you seem - perhaps I'm wrong - to dismiss any investment which does not show a pure economic saving or return. How would you account for factors such as anticipated future price increases of grid electricity, the reduction of carbon emissions, the independence it gives you etc. etc. when calculating what would be a worthwhile investment?

I think all these factors tie in with the opinions of hands-on users such as xone, which you have dismissed as anecdotal and worthless at various points in the thread. I have to say that as a non-scientist I find xone's experiences highly revealing and informative, as they are phrased in language I can understand, while much of your input, though no doubt equally worthwhile, is incomprehensible to me. I readily admit that this is probably a failing on my part; nonetheless, if you want to convince me that xone's path is futile you will have to do so in a way that has meaning for me and that takes account of all the factors involved, not just the economic ones. Correct me if I'm wrong, but you seem to be arguing that xone is wasting his time because he isn't saving any money, regardless of the many other positive benefits that have arisen from his choices. Xone himself is happy, and percieves himself to be wealthier on many levels. Granted that happiness and perception of wealth might be based on illusion, but to get philosophical about it, show me what isn't? Since you're so concerned about the economic aspects of all this, what economic value would you put on his happiness??

Anyone else is of course welcome to give their opinion on any of the above points - I just directed them at Air because he's shown himself to be opinionated, knowledgable and intolerant of a non-scientific approach to renewable energy. I would love to take a scientific approach myself, but my brain isn't wired that way. So what are my choices?

Boggle

I had a quick look at air's figures. Sounds good but unfortunately the analysis isn't deep enough. Not his fault though as I have tried to get spec's online for some of the systems he was looking at and they are unavailable.

For example, what type turbine do sp provide and what type solar panels do either provide? What type of inverter? I'll have a look at them and our own system when I get a chance in work and post the figures later on...

rockbeer, you don't have to understand the science. You do, though in broad terms need to be able to know the terms in question. I'll put together a simplified guide to turbines after work and post it as a new thread.

also for your perusal there is a doc here about wind turbines...
http://www.airoption.com/Downloads.html

Congrats to the lads on the calc's though - good to see some lads finally starting to ask questions about why some current suppliers are so expensive per kWh...

air

@ Boggle:
Not deep enough? LOL, I lost most people as it was! Anyway as you say there just isnt any real info available on those products as you say.

@ rockbeer
1. No, definitely not, I've posted elsewhere that I think that domestic wind power has great potential in this country.
2.No, green power is definitely not for scientists only, indeed I'm an engineer not a scientist. However if you are going down the route of specifying a renewable energy system yourself then I think it would should be a prerequisite to get a grasp of the principles involved. This should allow you to make an informed decision and help ensure that you are not disappointed.
On the other hand, non technical people should also be enabled to go green with the help of well informed, competent and honest installers of renewable energy systems.

3. I'd never dismiss the non economic factors, its great if you install some green energy system and feel good about it. However history has shown that economics are the deciding factor in the success of any new energy technology. For example PV solar electric panels have rocketed in popularity (and price) since the German government introduced financial incentives for their installation. The same is true of GSHPs, wood pellet burners etc since the introduction of the SRI grants here in Ireland.
While some people will always employ green energy technology because of having a conscience or for a feel good factor, the vast majority won't move on it until there is a financial incentive.

The reason I was critical of Xone was that I felt that some of his comments were totally misleading.

I'm all for feel good factor but I just feel that people might feel even better if they were actually doing some good.

rockbeer

@ Boggle:
Thanks for the link, looks interesting. Hope to have time for a proper read later.

air wrote:

No, definitely not, I've posted elsewhere that I think that domestic wind power has great potential in this country.

I'd be interested to know, based on your head for figures, which of the available domestic systems you think represents a worthwhile investment. Your response to xone suggests you don't think much of SP systems, yet your own figures show that proven are more expensive. Who else is there? Bearing in mind the size and noise restrictions required for pp, is there anything you would buy off the shelf? I know you are into self-build, but that takes us once again into the realms of green power being for geeks only (if you'll pardon the expression). I could probably manage to build a meccano-set turbine and I can swing a sledge, but if it involves a soldering iron or multimeter then I'm out.

air wrote:

...if you are going down the route of specifying a renewable energy system yourself then I think it would should be a prerequisite to get a grasp of the principles involved. This should allow you to make an informed decision and help ensure that you are not disappointed.
On the other hand, non technical people should also be enabled to go green with the help of well informed, competent and honest installers of renewable energy systems.

This I think is where the problems begin. I (and I imagine many other followers of this thread) am looking for a reputable supplier who will help me choose an appropriate system at a realistic price, support me while I get it installed and afterwards, and sort things out if they go wrong. On the basis of xone's experiences and those other posters, SP would seem to offer this. However, you seem unimpressed with them even though you haven't recommended anybody else. A few other names have been mentioned along the way, but there's almost nothing in the way of direct experience or positive endorsement. This is why I wonder whether you feel that domestic wind remains a potential technology rather than an actual one. Basically, if you couldn't build something of your own, would you buy any of the systems that are currently available or would you save your money for when the ESB bill lands?

air wrote:

However history has shown that economics are the deciding factor in the success of any new energy technology.

I totally agree with this statement. However, if we step back a minute from the overall picture and focus on the specific requirements of early adopters, the conscience driven etc. - many of us are wondering what we can do NOW. Waiting isn't a realistic option - my latest ESB bill is 280 Euro - that's up a hundred Euro on a year ago and I can only see more of the same to come. I'm ready to spend money on something more sustainable right now, and in the absence of any other recommendation, SP look like the only viable option. This decision isn't made easy by people telling me it's a bad idea, especially when they can't explain why in terms I can understand or suggest an alternative that doesn't involve me getting a physics degree first.

Please don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to make you responsible for my decision making - however, I would say that you yourself could be clearer and less misleading. I'm quite prepared to accept that some of xone's posts are technically inaccurate and therefore misleading. I have to say I find your posts equally confusing because on the one hand you say you think domestic wind is viable technology yet you diss every affordable system. So I ask again, what would you buy? And why?? At the moment, the only choices I see you proposing are to build a system myself or give the money to the ESB.

air wrote:

I'm all for feel good factor but I just feel that people might feel even better if they were actually doing some good.

Well of course... so what course of action/investment would you recommend that would 'actually do some good'?