Affordable DIY Wind Turbines- Produce your own affordable electricity

CJhaughey

Rockbeer
There is a guy called Hugh Piggott
He has a website http://www.scoraigwind.com/index.htm
which details turbine construction and theory.
I have an interest in making a small turbine just to test the principle before I go and spend money which I don't have on a larger system.
Unfortunately for me I live in quite a sheltered spot and I have a feeling that I wouldn't be able to make the best use of a turbine because of lack of wind.
However on the bright side I can report that the Solar Panels we had fitted back just before the grants came out have been producing good amounts of hot water current temperature 45 deg c.
I intend to try and power some LED lighting in my newly built shed with a small home built turbine and a biggish battery.

air

rockbeer wrote:

I'd be interested to know, based on your head for figures, which of the available domestic systems you think represents a worthwhile investment. Your response to xone suggests you don't think much of SP systems, yet your own figures show that proven are more expensive. Who else is there? Bearing in mind the size and noise restrictions required for pp, is there anything you would buy off the shelf? I know you are into self-build, but that takes us once again into the realms of green power being for geeks only (if you'll pardon the expression). I could probably manage to build a meccano-set turbine and I can swing a sledge, but if it involves a soldering iron or multimeter then I'm out.

OK, I think its a bit of a generalisation to say I didnt think much of the SP systems,rather I had issues with some of the claims that xone made for the output of his equipment.
For example, he was claiming IIRC to be harvesting a lot more energy with a solar panel than was technically possible given the size of his panels & daylight hours etc - see post 313 for more info.
I've never bought any renewable energy equipment from an Irish supplier so can't recommend one.

rockbeer wrote:

This I think is where the problems begin. I (and I imagine many other followers of this thread) am looking for a reputable supplier who will help me choose an appropriate system at a realistic price, support me while I get it installed and afterwards, and sort things out if they go wrong. On the basis of xone's experiences and those other posters, SP would seem to offer this. However, you seem unimpressed with them even though you haven't recommended anybody else. A few other names have been mentioned along the way, but there's almost nothing in the way of direct experience or positive endorsement. This is why I wonder whether you feel that domestic wind remains a potential technology rather than an actual one. Basically, if you couldn't build something of your own, would you buy any of the systems that are currently available or would you save your money for when the ESB bill lands?

If I had the money and a suitable site (I have neither at present) and if I was a non technical person, then yes I probably would buy from a trusted supplier.

rockbeer wrote:

I totally agree with this statement. However, if we step back a minute from the overall picture and focus on the specific requirements of early adopters, the conscience driven etc. - many of us are wondering what we can do NOW. Waiting isn't a realistic option - my latest ESB bill is 280 Euro - that's up a hundred Euro on a year ago and I can only see more of the same to come. I'm ready to spend money on something more sustainable right now, and in the absence of any other recommendation, SP look like the only viable option. This decision isn't made easy by people telling me it's a bad idea, especially when they can't explain why in terms I can understand or suggest an alternative that doesn't involve me getting a physics degree first.

Please don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to make you responsible for my decision making - however, I would say that you yourself could be clearer and less misleading. I'm quite prepared to accept that some of xone's posts are technically inaccurate and therefore misleading. I have to say I find your posts equally confusing because on the one hand you say you think domestic wind is viable technology yet you diss every affordable system. So I ask again, what would you buy? And why?? At the moment, the only choices I see you proposing are to build a system myself or give the money to the ESB.

If your bill is 280 euro then the first thing you are going to have to do is minimise your energy usage. I would guesstimate that this indicates something around 1700KwH every two months or 28 or so Kw per day.
This is a LOT of energy to be using for one house and is going to require a sizeable energy source whatever it is, renewable or not.
I think that unless you are willing to reduce your energy usage then a renewable energy system that will be sufficient to meet your needs will likely require a level of capital investment that you would be unwilling to make.

rockbeer wrote:

Well of course... so what course of action/investment would you recommend that would 'actually do some good'?

I'd suggest that people reduce their usage to the extent that they get to the stage where the installation of a renewable enerygy system becomes an affordable option that can offset an appreciable proportion of their energy needs.

For example in your case I would figure out what you're doing with all that energy, eliminate all the wasteage (there must be loads) and then start about seeing what you can purchase to offset the biggest loads. For example if you are using most of your electricity for water heating, invest in a woodchip boiler or solar hot water system etc

Boggle

This is only aimed at comparing the wind turbine section of these packages.

Firstly, comparing wind turbines is an extremely easy task. (Sorry Air, you had all the formulas but I meant you weren't going deep enough into the specification not that it wasn't correct.)

Here is a summary of a report that can be found here: http://www.airoption.com/Downloads.html

Essentially, all you need to know to know if a given turbine will perform is the average wind speed you can expect and the power curve of the turbine.

A power curve basically gives you the wind speed on the horizontal axis and the resultant power from each wind speed is plotted against the vertical axis.

The proven 600W turbine spec is found here: http://www.provenenergy.co.uk/images/stories/PDFs/specifications.pdf

Next, use met.ie to get your average wind speed in your area. Bear in mind that these wind speeds are only general and that individual locations have differing wind potential. (It has a written chart that you can use to guage your local conditions)

For the West Wind solution (Proven 600W):

Given that the bulk of the country is at 5m/s average speed you look at the proven graph and get the resultant average power.
In this case its 0.11kW (110 W).
- 0.11kW energy produced for an hour is 0.11kWh .
- 24 hours in a day so daily average is 24 * 0.11kWh = 2.64kWh per day
- 30 days a month (2 months a bill): 2.64kWh * 30 * 2 = 158.4 kWh removed from each bill

No maths at all.
(Lovely turbine by the way)


Surface Power:

Right, looking at surface power I cannot find a single manufacturer name (Brand) OR specification for any of their equipment. There isn't so much as a technical datasheet on-line (that I can find).
In the absence of these I would advise against this turbine. It is possible that they are available, if so then apologies, but why are they not on-line??

Further more, having seen this I have serious doubts about their attention to safety- http://www.surfacepower.com/pdf/utility_connect_solar_brochure.pdf

On a point of safety and having seen the above picture on sp's site.
The idea of somebody tying into the grid using a male 3-pin plug is not the message to be sending out to people for alternative energy. What if somebody looks at this and decides to use the same approach with a generator (wind or other) to reduce their domestic bills. Where will it leave the whole notion of safety?

I'm an engineer and I CANNOT believe that anybody could consider using a male 3-pin plug to feed power to be safe.
Why?
A solar panel is ON and live - if its bright, its on. You pick up the plug and the male pins could potentially be live. Even if there is a built-in safeguard, safeguards can and do fail making this system inherently unsafe in my opinion.

Is this system approved by the ESB?

rockbeer

Thanks for the info, no time for a proper rep,ly right now - have to take the old girl out for her birthday... however:

Boggle wrote:

Right, looking at surface power I cannot find a single manufacturer name (Brand) OR specification for any of their equipment. There isn't so much as a technical datasheet on-line (that I can find).

SP have a so-called datasheet for the SP800 turbine here

http://www.surfacepower.com/pdf/SP800_Turbine_3_page.pdf

hth,
Bruce

Boggle

Cheers for that. Didn't find that myself...

Right so, based on their (incredibly detailed) datasheet, their turbine would provide (at 5m/s avg wind speed) : 0.1kW * 24 *30 = 72kWh per month
Still not happy with the datasheet. When I see terms like silent but without dB levels I worry. Define silent.

Now: I may be wrong but their special 4 (this) package has a production limit of 800w apparently. And this from a 400W turbine and 3x100W panels(??700W??). What am i missing?

Also, what PV panels are they using? Their installation/spec sheet shows what looks like monocrystalline cells but the "special 4 page" shows what may be at best polycrystalline. (You can tell by how they look) Thhere is a difference between the 2, but of course there is no mention of which they provide. What are the efficiency levels of the cells? Who manufacturers them?

As far as I am concerned (as an engineer) you deal in specifics. If your datasheet is not immediately at hand then I wonder why...

rockbeer

Boggle wrote:

Now: I may be wrong but their special 4 (this) package has a production limit of 800w apparently. And this from a 400W turbine and 3x100W panels(??700W??). What am i missing?

Glad I wasn't the only one mystified by this

Boggle wrote:

Also, what PV panels are they using?

The spec for the SP601 Solar PV is at

http://www.surfacepower.com/sp601.html

They certainly don't make it easy...

Boggle

Rockbeer - your a legend! I seriously struggle with the layout of their site.

Again for those who know little about PV cellls:
Polycrystalline cells such as these are a cheaper type of cell. Given the Irish conditions, I advise people to buy the most efficient cell they can. They don't even give the efficiency rating.

And working out their prices, they are nearly E7 a watt! (Thats allowing for the charge controller)

FYI, system size depending, you can buy monocrystalline panels from under E5 a watt!! Shop around folks...

regards,
Ken

miser

rockbeer, heres a quick guide to a system and the payback time,

Here is a quick practical application to a system, if anyone needs any further information feel free to open up the issues.
Currently my energy consumption is 13000 kwh PA., yes I need to reduce my usage but I also need to have a close look at where this energy issue is heading. Prices are certainly not going to ease off unless somebody knows something I don’t.
So here is the situation.
I use 13000kwh pa……35kwh a day……scary.
1) Electricity costs this year will be (inc new increase) Euro 2210.00
2) My costs to year 2020 inc 10% increase per annum Euro 61824.00

The question now is what do I need to install to offset the cost and how long will it take for me to achieve payback. A simple enough question;
3.3kw wind turbine, 8672kwh
from my calculations I’m estimating 30% efficiency over the year.
2000 watt solar, 3504kwh
(monocrystalline) I’m assuming a 20% efficiency over the year.
My total requirement for the year is…… 13000kwh
My total production for the year..... 12176kwh
I’m not concerned about the - balance at the moment:
Conversion efficiency loss, (inverter) 6% Total; 11811kwh

My largest energy draw is for electric showers, 9kw. So there is no point in fitting an inverter smaller than 10kw, and it needs to be a full sine wave as I want to use it as my primary energy source, this is because I can achieve conversion efficiencies of 93% +, and I will have low distortion rates, suitable for all my appliances. Take good advice in selecting your inverter as they are varied and expensive and need to be sized correctly.
(With modified sine wave inverter my conversion efficiency will only be in the order of 60/75%, this is a huge loss of energy over the year).
Storage;
I will need batteries to store my electricity so I will try to adequately size my requirements. I want to have the smallest watts applicable to my needs.
My daily requirement = 34kwh, so I need 34000 watts of batteries – well actually its more complex than that, lets see if we can do an example.
98% of my energy is going to be used during the day, 7am to 12pm, no matter how good we design our system we are after all dependant on mother nature and she is not quite as predictable as we would like. There is also another issue when it comes to batteries, they don’t like to be discharged below 60 to70% of their storage capacity; ie you have only 40% of the power available, of course you can discharge them well below this level but the more frequent you do it the faster they die.
If you read the spec sheets for any of the good battery manufacturers you will see that the life of the battery is directly related to the number of times you discharge them below a certain threshold, therefore to get the maximum life from your battery assume that you have only 30% – 40% capacity that you wish to discharge. Now; even though I have 34000 watts battery storage, in reality I only have 14000 watts I really want to use at any one time; except in the case of an emergency, and every emergency will shorten the life of your cells.
If you use your power during 16 hours of the day but you are depending on 24 hrs to charge your batteries you will have a shortfall. This is why solar is a positive advantage as it will compensate for this difference to some extent. Ask me for clarification if you need it.
So with 34000 watts of battery I have 14000 watts available to me, but I need 34000 watts during the day.
We have to assume that our AE system will deliver 10kwh usable power during the day, well below its expected target. This gives us 24000watts of reliable power; our shortfall is therefore 10000 watts so we need to find this extra capacity in our battery storage. So; if we select 50000 watts of batteries, this will allow us to cover a days requirements without depleting batteries more than approx 45% of capacity, thus extending the life of the batteries to the maximum.
To manage my system I will use one of two possible alternatives, 1) I will use night tariff electricity to replenish any shortfall in battery capacity overnight (not my preferred option), or 2) I will use a Biodiesel generator to offset any deficiency in my system whenever I need it.
This is the point where system design gets important, do I use a combined solar/wind or do I use combined wind/Biodiesel.
Given that solar is the most expensive option, wind is next and biodiesel is the cheaper of the three options to install. Which system should I use? All these options have pros and cons and this is why off the shelf systems cant fit all. After all if you are spending money it should be targeted at self dependence, as a most suitable system can be modular and expanded as you decide.
I could go on but it is best to for you guys to open any questions you feel are appropriate.
Alternative energy is viable with highly and correctly spec’ed equipment particularly if you can buy it at the right price.
For your info the wind/solar option stated above would cost as follows, no name ..so no plug. If you want the supplier …Ask.
Specification;
2kw Monocrystalline Solar,
3.3Kw Wind Turbine
50000 watts Deep Cycle Battery
10kw Pure Sine Wave Inverter, 2% dist.
18 Meter mast.
5 year guarantee.
Price Euro 26,000.00
Full Payback Period 8 years.

It does pay.

Mactr3

Wow i cant believe the information ive been lookin for is in one place. A detailed argument for the real financial benefits rather than a tree hugger approach tellin me to help save the world.

KNO3

Yes i have been reading through this thread with interest as well and coincidentally I was up in B&Q Liffey Valley last week and noticed they had a wind turbine setup in the store, it was an AEG Windsave 1 Kw turbine with inverter, dont know the full spec, not that well up on these matters yet, it just has a sign on it saying "Coming soon" so no idea on price, if you go in the main entrance, its straight ahead on the right about 50 feet or so inside the shop.

gizbon

Can anybody who has bought the systems from Surface power tell me what type of panels did they get Polycrystalline or monocrystalline
I have bought the system and i got polycrystalline but was under the impression that i was getting mono
They did change the supplier that they where getting there panels from as when i got my panels they where a different size and had to reorder my aluminium solar mounts
The size on there web site was different to the panels supplied
When i called them they did say that they had to change there supplier because the price of the panels had gone up and that is why i am asking the question,did they switch to poly from mono because of cost if so i got a little less for my money (Surface power did make good the difference in cost to me with no bones)

KAGY

Voyager II wrote:

Unless you have a recirculating hot water system, now that aint cheap

Don't bother with these unless you have free hot water. Our plumber installed one without us knowing (he said free of charge), but what we found was that it just cooled down our hot water as it was circulating in a relatively cool place!

2 stroke

Hi everone, just found this forum. looks like what i need to compare systems. I was seriously considering purchassing a surface power system until i met the guy that runs the show. I didnt like him and i got the feeling he was not to be trusted,though i could be wrong about him. on paper his system seems to make most sense. can anybody tell me who is the manufacturer of his solar cells. i am most worried about the little things i cannot find out about this system.

Voyager II

2 Stroke

I met the surfacepower guys in galway and got the same impression as you.
But if you still want to go with the turbines these guys have for sale for a fraction of the cost check out this guy in germany http://www.prevent-germany.com/ Way cheaper than surfacepower. The site is in german obviously just use google to translate it.

Boggle

Surface power claim to manufacture their own solar modules.

Generally, solar cells will be okay if they have IEC61215 certification and a performance guarantee.

on paper his system seems to make most sense.

You haven't done much looking if you think this and you definitely must be looking at different spec sheets than I am. I am most concerned about the poor turbines they provide. Who makes their turbines, what kind of bearings, what kind of windings have they,... Too many things they wont tell you.

Did you ask about the batteries? What kind they offering? Did they explain when sizing batteries that you cannot discharge below 70-80%?

In short, I reckon their systems are a joke so I'd recommend looking around. There's a list of alternative companies you can look at like westwind, energy-liberators, airoption, ...

Is there a sticky with a list of these renewable companies so that people can shop around?

Voyager II

Boggle

What is the best turbine that you have come accross in your travels. At a resonable cost of course

Boggle

When looking at a turbine look at a few things:

Power curve: Details the performance of a turbine across varying wind speeds. If its poor at low wind-speeds then forget about it as it will almost half the expected output.

Cut in speed: Again too high and it'll do nothing most of the time. Windsave wont generate until 4.5m/s. (Average wind is 5-7m/s.)

Bearings: Look for sealed bearings to minimise maintenance.

Windings: Generally double insulated is considered reasonable. Triple insulated (vacuum impregnation) is ideal as it will work trouble free in marine climates.

There are several other spec's but these should give the jist (spell?!?) of how to find a reliable and high preforming turbine.

Good Turbines:
I would only recommend two turbines at this point and they would be proven and Unitron. Of the 2, Unitron offer the higher spec but the proven is a downwind system which some may prefer.

Of all, I would recommend steering clear of bergey systems as I just don't like the performance spec's.

(Ask anyone who knows about standard generators/motors to look at the winding spec if you are unsure about this)

2 stroke

Surface power claim to manufacture their own solar modules.

I read this as they assemble solar cells into aluminium frames. I'd like to know if there is a manufacturer that can be relied on if this guy disapears or goes bust. And my comment

on paper his system seems to make most sense.

please notice the word seems.

2 stroke

voyager. Thanks for link to prevent, very interesting pricing Has anybody dealt with them? Also thanks for the education, I didn't know google could translate.

Gurgle

miser wrote:

Specification;
2kw Monocrystalline Solar,
3.3Kw Wind Turbine
50000 watts Deep Cycle Battery
10kw Pure Sine Wave Inverter, 2% dist.
18 Meter mast.
5 year guarantee.
Price Euro 26,000.00
Full Payback Period 8 years.

It does pay.

5 year guarantee on everything?
I'm guessing a 50kW battery is a good chunk of the total cost, and I'm not aware of anywhere you can get any battery with a 5 year guarantee.

Also - 8 year payback vs 5 year guarantee. 8>5

2 stroke

Elecsol give a 5 year guarantee on their batteries. Found them at www.unlimited-power.co.uk
looks like the same batteries used by Surface Power.

Lissavane

CJhaughey wrote:

Miser
Don't even reply to Lissavane it is just a troll,it never contributed anything useful to this thread apart from snide comments.

I don't know the precise definition of "troll" but if, as I think, it describes a poster who purports to be other than what they are, then I think these posters on this topic may fulfil the criteria: xonecentral, cuauhtemac, miser.

I suspect that all three have vested interests - I may be wrong.

I'd like to get an update on xonecentral's experience with suppliers of alternative energy sources - he seemed to be enthusiastic about a company called Surface Power. Recent postings here seem to indicate a negative sentiment towards that company.

Overall, I'd advise new readers of this forum to exercise caution - posters may not be what they seem.

Cuauhtemoc

I'd just like to clarify that i am in no way linked to any companies i've mentioned in this thread, or any thread for that matter.

I've learnt a lot from these forums and probably wouldn't now buy from surface power. A lot due to Air's calculations on wind power generation and other peoples knowledge and experience.

The more appealing options to me for various renewables would now be Kerry biofuels or Ecostoves for wood pellet.
Airoption.com for Wind/solar pv package.
Rvr.ie do what looks like a very reasonable solar Water package with tank etc. Don't know too much about them yet but seems quite reasonably priced.

Anyway if the mods would like some proof that i have no vested interests they can pm me.

C.

2 stroke

Likewise, I would like to confirm I have no business link to any company or individual selling alternative energy products.
I am however inclined to think surface powers system makes a lot of sense although I dread to think of putting my money in that guys pocket.
What I like about this system is that it is neat and tidy, seems well thought out, appears foolproof. Keeping in mind that I may wish to sell my house at some time in the future or that the system may outlive me, I consider it important that all components come from one supplier and are sold to be compatible with each other because sombody else might need to make sense of it. .
What worries me is this guys ability not to give a straight answer, the lack of brand names and the fact that a very similar looking turbine and controller with similar specs is being exported from china at a much cheaper price. Can we realy believe claims that surface powers system has been designed for Ireland and Scotland's unique and challenging wind resource when it appears to be for sale as far away as New Zealand?

JosephQ

Loved reading this thread as i'm building a house in a very wind spot and was thinking of a wind turbine but after reading this i was wondering maybe i should go down the wind turbine and solar power as well. I am also going to install a pellet boiler that can burn as well corn and other husk material.

Doe any one know what happened to xonecentral he seemed to know his stuff. I found this web site of a scottish company still trying to find out prices as i am away a lot and when i get in they have gone home. but you may want to take a look at it and answer the my question would these be legal in ireland and would you need planning permission

www.renewabledevices.com

Look at the video clips from the BBC

miser

Gurgle wrote:

5 year guarantee on everything?
I'm guessing a 50kW battery is a good chunk of the total cost, and I'm not aware of anywhere you can get any battery with a 5 year guarantee.

Also - 8 year payback vs 5 year guarantee. 8>5

Gurgle, I'm at a loss as to what point you are trying to make, I suggest if you want to make some kind of valid argument you should do so in some form of english because then I,m absolutely confident I can provide you with an argument that even you might be able to understand.
In case you did't know, since this post things have moved on somewhat as now we can have the luxury of grid tie and the batteries are even less of an issue.
you find me better value than we can now offer and I will eat my hat.
What point are you really trying to make??????

miser

Lissavane wrote:

I don't know the precise definition of "troll" but if, as I think, it describes a poster who purports to be other than what they are, then I think these posters on this topic may fulfil the criteria: xonecentral, cuauhtemac, miser.
Overall, I'd advise new readers of this forum to exercise caution - posters may not be what they seem.

I think your reading of the matter may be partially correct, I believe we all have a vested interest in this topic. I have a dual interest in the matter, a) i have a passion about the way this whole industry has been fleeced by and crippled by people who have an interest in only making a quick buck.
I believe good product can be brought to the market at prices that will generate a realistic expectation of satisfaction, this can only benefit the consumer and by benefiting the consumer, it will be good for the whole renewables industry.
I think what is much more important is the fact that this forum could be used to have a serious debate on the real issues, and those issues are ensuring that others on this forum get the best technical advise in choosing thier systems. Giving people the information one has aquired over many years is free, how they use it is thier choice.
I believe that this post is displaying a serious level of personality bashing instead of focusing on getting good sound info into the public domain, isnt that what it is supposed to do!

Gurgle

miser wrote:

Gurgle, I'm at a loss as to what point you are trying to make?

I thought it was pretty clear - The investment will take a minimum of 8 years to be financially covered, but the guarantee is for 5 years. Where did I lose you?

miser wrote:

you find me better value than we can now offer and I will eat my hat.
What point are you really trying to make

Thats my point, they're not available in this country at a worthwhile price.

And now that you've made it entirely clear that you are a supplier not a 'satisfied customer', maybe you can answer my question

How much of the 26k is for the 50kW battery, and what are the chances of it lasting the 8 years ?

davidoco

JosephQ wrote:

I found this web site of a scottish company still trying to find out prices

www.renewabledevices.com

Look at the video clips from the BBC

Adding in the VAT and the payback on their stuff is about 16 years. You'd be better off investing the £5500 pounds in the post office. Got it from here

http://www.s-e-c.co.uk/renewables/swift_turbine_faq.pdf


Unit and Installation Costs
The indicative costs for the Swift Rooftop Energy System and Standard
Installation are detailed below, without prejudice. Any additional requirements
identified from the Stage 1
Site Feasibility Report will be in addition to these costs.
Product or Service
Unit Cost (ex VAT)* in UK pounds (£)
Swift Rooftop Wind Energy System 3,500
Standard Installation of Swift 1,250
Total 4,750

payback
Electricity used on site 2,000 kWh @ 9 p/kWh = £180
Electricity exported 1,000 kWh @ 3 p/kWh = £ 30
ROC's 3 ROC’s @ £40/ROC = £120
Total = £330

riccol1966

Here's my 2 cents: I do have the SP system. That's where my SSIA profit went!

I don't care about payback period, but I do care about being independant and reducing my ongoing bills. The reason I went with them was a) they were the only Irish company to ALWAYS email you back, everytime. b) their field sales guy ALWAYS phoned me back, whenever I had a question or concern. c) anything goes wrong, they fix it. This was the easiest decision I ever made; other Irish companies won't get a cent of my money unless they are prepared to put me first.

Before you ask no, I don't work for them!

By all means make up your own mind. My view is: what's the point of getting a system from Germany or China, when you have no support for it?

On the components of the system, I have seen the same turbine elsewhere (energyliberators.com, running at 24V), and here also as a 'vortex 400': http://www.sunpipe.co.uk/other-products/international/turbines.php). Also I believe the pv panels are Kyocera polycrystalline, they look almost the same.

miser

Gurgle wrote:

I thought it was pretty clear - The investment will take a minimum of 8 years to be financially covered, but the guarantee is for 5 years. Where did I lose you?

Ok I see where you are going; I would have thought that offering 5 year warranty was a fairly generous confidence in a product.
Now, because it takes approx 8 years to achieve payback, why or how should this indicate that the warranty should run for 8 years. If you pay 30K for a new car and you get 2 year warranty, does it imply any connection with the payback period?

Gurgle wrote:

Thats my point, they're not available in this country at a worthwhile price.

Everything is available at a worthwhile price, all you have to do is research your needs, and by worthwhile price I mean ''Good Quality''

Gurgle wrote:

and now that you've made it entirely clear that you are a supplier not a 'satisfied customer', maybe you can answer my question

I am a supplier but I dont deliberately promote my site here, is this site for people who have already been screwed or is it for the benefit of those trying to sus out what they need. If it is for the latter then we should try to offer as much info as possible so that people are equiped to make informed decisions, whatever supplier they choose to use. I dont force anyone to buy from me. what I do offer is good technical advise for others to do with as they please.

Gurgle wrote:

How much of the 26k is for the 50kW battery, and what are the chances of it lasting the 8 years ?

I have already submitted a detailed article on sizing and maintaining batteries earlier, but to answer your question directly. the batteries will cost approx 25% of the package price. as for the life of the batteries this will depend on the manufacturers spec and how well designed the system is. check the spec for any chosen manufacturer and you will see the life expectancy for the battery. It will last much longer than 8 years if the system is designed and managed properly.

riccol1966

I am expecting my Elecsol 270amp batteries to last me at least 15-20 years, if averaging around 50% discharge, with occasional dips down to 30%.

Gurgle

miser wrote:

I would have thought that offering 5 year warranty was a fairly generous confidence in a product.
Now, because it takes approx 8 years to achieve payback, why or how should this indicate that the warranty should run for 8 years.

Please bear with me, this might get confusing.

There is a reason I'm focusing on the battery.

Most of the components are electro-mechanical. Product lifetime (bathtub curve) is a low slope as the device ages. A 5 year guarantee for an electro-mechanical device is indicative of an expected minimum lifetime of 5 years, an average lifetime of maybe 10-15 years and a maximum lifetime of maybe 20 years.

On the other hand, an electro-chemical device (generally a battery) has a much steeper slope at the end of it's bathtub curve. Its lifetime does not end with failure of a component, it ends with the (predictable) end of the useful chemical reaction. In this case, you cannot reasonably expect to get 10 years out of something guaranteed for 5.

miser wrote:

Everything is available at a worthwhile price, all you have to do is research your needs, and by worthwhile price I mean ''Good Quality''

And what you're selling may well be the best quality on the market and the best price for that quality. I'm not claiming otherwise.

My entire point is that I do not believe it is yet economically viable to generate your own electricity. To do it is unarguably good for the environment, and its great that environmentally aware people are putting these things in, but to sell a system on the basis that it will pay for itself is questionable.

miser wrote:

is this site for people who have already been screwed or is it for the benefit of those trying to sus out what they need. If it is for the latter then we should try to offer as much info as possible so that people are equiped to make informed decisions, whatever supplier they choose to use. I dont force anyone to buy from me. what I do offer is good technical advise for others to do with as they please.

I appreciate that, and its good to have that kind of info available as a baseline for anyone looking into renewables. I'd quibble over the way you presented the info; might have been better to pop up and say 'I sell this stuff, here's a quote'. I suggest you get yourself over to the Commercial Interaction forum and contact the mods there. You could generate a lot of business through boards but theres nothing the people here hate more than someone trying to subtly pimp their stuff.

miser wrote:

to answer your question directly. the batteries will cost approx 25% of the package price

So about €6.5k for a 50kWh battery with a 5 year guarantee? Thats surprisingly cheap.

Can you link (or PM) details & specs for the battery?

miser

Gurgle wrote:

Please bear with me, this might get confusing.

There is a reason I'm focusing on the battery.

Gurgle wrote:

Most of the components are electro-mechanical. Product lifetime (bathtub curve) is a low slope as the device ages. A 5 year guarantee for an electro-mechanical device is indicative of an expected minimum lifetime of 5 years, an average lifetime of maybe 10-15 years and a maximum lifetime of maybe 20 years.

I'm an electrical engineer with an additional 3'rd level qualification in science. I dont want to get into a statistical debate as statistics can be used or abused.
you seem to infer that when someone offers something for sale and offers a guarantee that somehow this guarantee is indicative of the life of the product. I offer a good guarantee because I believe that we offer well engineered product. I suggest that you go to the Saft batteries website and analyse the data from thier site and apply various methodologies so as to assess the life of products under differing opperating conditions. I'm sure you will arrive at whetever conclusion you choose.

Gurgle wrote:

My entire point is that I do not believe it is yet economically viable to generate your own electricity. To do it is unarguably good for the environment, and its great that environmentally aware people are putting these things in, but to sell a system on the basis that it will pay for itself is questionable.

This is the part of the debate I prefer best. I dont claim anything unless it can be achieved. When people use terms like ''questionable'' without the use of data to support thier point of view is reason enough to doubt thier ability to justify thier position. This is gone way beyond the environmental argument as the whole issue of energy is now a financial nightmare for many people. example;
From january 07, use of 8000kwh PA, will cost approx 1200.00 EUR.
An average 10% increase PA, by 2013 will have a cost of 2125.00 Euro.
By this time they will have paid 11384.00 for thier energy usage.
a 3.3kw wind turbine @ 30% efficiency will produce 8500kwh PA.
I can sell a state of the art grid tie system today for 11200.00. every year you wait, you lose money. This is my argument for wind - what is your argument against???? bear in mind we will be lucky to see only 10% PA increase in electricity costs, average over the past 4 years has been around 14%.


.

gurgle wrote:

I suggest you get yourself over to the Commercial Interaction
I why should I leave the forum, I have a point of view the same as others. If you check through this thread you will find every company in the country being promoted by somebody, in fact all you see is plugs instead of questions and answers related to the technology it is supposed to promote.

jobrok1

HI! All...

I'm new to these bords! But I've been reading through a lot of the posts about this subject.

I've recently set up one of Surface Powers systems in my home.
I still have to get the turbine put up, but I have got the solar panels mounted on my roof and I've wired up the charge controller, batteries and inverter.
I've let the solar panels to charge the batteries for the last week or so. There are no faults registering on any of the equipment. But when I went to test the system with a load(a small 46W circ. pump), the pump worked normally, but with a fairly load buzzing sound coming from it.
The voltage was read at 224V and the frequency was at 50Hz, and the load was read at 46W.
I tried a couple of other electrical loads to see if it was just the pump and it was the same with all of them. A TV, DVD player, Sky box! They all emitted a buzzing sound.
Needles to say! I disconnected everything immediately.

I was thinking it could be harmonic interferance, but have no way of checking this.
Another reason I was thinking it could be is that the batteries are still not fully charged. It has been only about a week. The panels are 300W combined. And the batteries are large 270Ah. Fully charged there should be a voltage of over 14V across the battery terminals. At the moment it is still only at 12V.


I've been in contact with SP's technical support. They said they are looking into it and will contact me soon. but I thought I might check here to see if anyone else has come across this problem.
So! Does anyone here have any idea what the problem might be?
I'd really appreciate it if someone could help me out.

air

You are probably averaging no more than 1 hour of sunshine a day over the last week - given the time of year and the *hite weather.
Assuming 1hr of peak output (25A for 300W panels @ 12V) , that would add up to 175Ah of charging (25A x 7hrs) so your bank should be reasonably full if the cells had a decent float voltage when they arrived.
However if the voltage is only 12V without load then they've a lot more charging to do - based on this document (http://www.homepower.com/files/battvoltandsoc.pdf) they are only 25% charged at present.
The buzzing you describe is typically caused by modified sine wave inverters, you'll likely need to invest in a more expensive one to eliminate it.
Still I'd give the current one a go when the bank is fully charged before writing it off.

Edit: I missed the bit about the bank voltage on first reading

riccol1966

The buzzing you got was exactly the same problem that I had with the msw inverters, I can guarantee that if you test with a psw inverter then the results will be fine.

Here's my notes on testing the equipment.

http://www.richardcollins.net/winsol_inverter.html

jobrok1

Excellent! Thanks for the quick replies.

I'm thinking that it's the batteries are not fully charged alright, but I won't know for a good while yet if that's the case. If I could get the turbine up they would charge a lot quicker, I know! But finding the time between work and the miserable wet and windy weather I don't know when I'll get a chance.

And thanks to "riccol1966". What an excellent website you've set up.
Very helpfull indeed.

Just out of curiousity. What size cable did you use to connect the 3kW PSW inverter from the batteries.
I had a similar problem with the cabling to the 2kW SP inverter. But my problem was distance. I have the batteries stored outside my back door with the controller and inverters inside my utility room. The cables supplied from SP were 35mm.sq. and 1m in length. But the distance I need is around 2.5m for both cables. I did a cable calc and worked out that a 50-70mm.sq. would be OK, so I went with the 70mm.sq.
Although I'm doubting that it is 70mm.sq. It looks really big. I wouldn't be surprised if it's a 95-120mm.sq.

riccol1966

Never checked the specific cable thickness on the 3kw inverter; looks like 50mm2, but there are 2 of them joined together for pos & neg, to allow for a potential surge of up to 9kw. The cables come with the inverter, but because of their size they are very awkward to work with.

You are probably safest in going one size bigger than you need if the cable run is longer than a metre, especially if you are intending to draw full loads at any point, otherwise the inverter will shut down as current won't be available, even if the battery is fully charged.

Be careful of batteries kept outside, you don't want them to corrode. Also, extreme temps are not good either. If at all possible try to house them somewhere.

jobrok1

I have the batteries in a large plastic storage box, with a flip top lid.
Got it in Atlantic Homecare. It is plenty big to store 3 x 270Ah batteries and looks big enough to squeeze in a 4th.

It will do until I can sort out something a bit more permanent. We have future plans to extend onto the utility(whenever that will be). :rolleyes:

miser

jobrok1
dont know if you ever seen a battery to explode, storing in a plastic container inside a house is not a smart option, in fact no battery should be located in an unventillated area. caution!!

jobrok1

HAhaaa!!

Thanks for the concern! But don't worry! I have no intention of keeping the batteries inside the house.

The storage box is weather proof and is outside the back door of our house.
When we do extend the utility room, I plan to include a small storage shed also! This is where I'll keep the batteries in the future. But it's a good way off yet.


I've also been trawling the internet for Pure Sine Inverters. They're certainly not cheap. There are a few on eBay, but it's a lot of money to risk on an auction site. Plus they're mostly from Asia.

air

Go with a good brand name like Xantrex, Sunny Boy, Victron or similar and you wont go far wrong from ebay or elsewhere.

jobrok1

I've just ordered an analog battery monitor. Found it cheap on eBay. Should be able to give me a good idea of the state of charge of the batteries and how the solar panels are doing also!
I really hope I can get the turbine up soon, though!
We're supposed to get pretty sh**ty weather again, so doesn't look like it will be this week.

I've also ordered a new multimeter that can read DC amps. The one I have can't do that so I can't tell how many amps are coming from the panels.

2 stroke

I came across this tonight check it out http://www.esb.ie/esbnetworks/downloads/microgen.pdf

pjbrady1

For Wind installations to be more efficient if you have a largish turbine and very Windy conditions and are away at work during the day. Then the ideal is that you sell Electricity to the ESB. However from the following language it almost looks like the ESB are waiting for Micro generation industry (thats a paradox) to setup a mechnism for metering.

"At the time of writing no mechanism for the sale and export of excess electricity from micro-generation is in place for micro generation in Ireland. Therefore no change in Net metering is envisaged due to the installation of micro generation Should such a mechanism come into being this will be reviewed."

Hello, you own the network, and don't tell us well actually "ESB Networks own the network". They are the body responsible for bringing this mechanism into place. Are they seriously presenting this kind of stuff to Noel Dempsey and getting away with it. As we all sit at work today even in urban Dublin the wind is serioously howling all day. There is thousands of euro of electricity units being wasted every hour as there is not metering policy.

riccol1966

My only comment on the tubines is, having had one for 6 months, that smaller is better. For three reasons: 1) small turbines will invariably result in more acceptance from a neighbour/planning/visual point of view. 2) the small ones typically have lower cut in wind speeds to take advantge of lower level wind and 3) having more than 1 provides you with some form or redundancy should one fail. Believe me, you won't be too happy if your single 2Kw Proven turbine has to be taken down for servicing and you miss out on 3 weeks of good wind.

jobrok1

riccol1966 wrote:

The buzzing you got was exactly the same problem that I had with the msw inverters, I can guarantee that if you test with a psw inverter then the results will be fine.

Here's my notes on testing the equipment.

http://www.richardcollins.net/winsol_inverter.html

I was speaking to one of the lads from Surface Power about the buzzing with all the appliances.

I explained the that I hadn't actually wired the system up to the house yet! That I was just plugging the different equipment directly into the inverters socket to simply test that everything was working OK!

He explained to me that the earth from the household equipment isn't carried through the inverter itself. That these should be grounded from the distribution board to an earthrod. The same way that a house is normally grounded.
The earth connection on the inverter is just for protection of the inverter itself.

He said to finish the installation and see if the buzzing still occurs. But that this should solve the problem.

If it doesn't! Then I think I'll be asking for a refund on the inverter.

Crispy Duck

Hi, this is my first time on boards, have spent time reading this thread and thought someone might know answer to my question. I am interested in the Surface Power "Total Electricity Rural System 2", A 3Kw turbine, 600 w of panels etc..., Has anyone got one of these that can advise me? Also, is it legal yet for the 2m blade turbine Dick Roche was talking about?, Thanks.

Gurgle

Whats the deal with Surface Power anyway?

According to the blurb on the Sustainable Ireland website (Not to be confused with SEI)here:

Irelands Largest Renewable Energy Company: manufacturing and supplying state of the art professional wind turbines and solar photovoltaic electricity solutions, solar vacuum hot water and under floor heating systems to the whole of the EU. All products designed for Irelands unique conditions.

But they don't appear either on the SEI's registered products/manufacturers list or the installers list for solar panels.

And their website is dead as a doornail atm.

Do they actually manufacture their own stuff?
Do they trade under another name?