No Day of Mourning?

billy the squid

why dont they do the same for the pope's funeral as they did for ireland matches during italia 90. allow people to leave work to attend religious services or watch the funeral on television with their families, and let them work up the couple of hours either on the friday or spread the owed hours over the five days of the following week.

this would of course be optional meaning that those uninterested in the funeral would be unaffected.

Im still at a loss as to who they expect to mind these kids who are off school friday while the parents have to go to work.

The Corinthian

The government actually set a precedent with that idiotic day of morning that Ahern instigated for the WTC tragedy - even the US didn’t have a day of morning. So it’s perfectly consistent with past government policy to call for a similar day of morning for either the tutsami disaster or the death of the Pope.

Or maybe we can only have a day of mourning if the Vatican invested a bit of cash in industry here.

Kimbot

folks, if 9/11 got a national day of mourning just to keep america sweet I think the pope should get one because alot of people want to show their respect for the late Pope JP.

SCULLY

The Corinthian wrote:

The government actually set a precedent with that idiotic day of morning that Ahern instigated for the WTC tragedy - even the US didn’t have a day of morning. So it’s perfectly consistent with past government policy to call for a similar day of morning for either the tutsami disaster or the death of the Pope.

Or maybe we can only have a day of mourning if the Vatican invested a bit of cash in industry here.

I totally agree.

Sleepy

Ireland winning the World Cup would be a far better reason to give people a day off work as it's something that would apply to the country as a whole.

I'd say the percentage of the country that are actively practicing Catholics has dropped to about 10 - 20% at this stage with maybe another 40% claiming to be catholic without actually adhering to most of it's teachings.

Methinks that governments will be regretting the "day of mourning" for Sept 11th for decades to come as every notable death will now see calls for one.

Sleepy

jonny24ie wrote:

folks, if 9/11 got a national day of mourning just to keep america sweet I think the pope should get one because alot of people want to show their respect for the late Pope JP.

That's a ludicrous statement. The natural death of one privilidged old man cannot be compared to the murder of over three thousand.

The Corinthian

Sleepy wrote:

That's a ludicrous statement. The natural death of one privilidged old man cannot be compared to the murder of over three thousand.

Why not?

The WTC tragedy was a momentous, but ultimately foreign, event that invoked emotion and meaning in many Irish men and women because there was an indirect relationship to Ireland (a number of the dead were Irish).

The death of a pope is also a momentous, but ultimately foreign, event that invokes emotion and meaning in many Irish men and women because there is an indirect relationship to Ireland (most Irish are Roman Catholic).

Just because it doesn’t hit a cord with you hardly makes it ludicrous.






As an aside and a bit of trivia, the equivalent expression to “every blue moon” (i.e. exceedingly infrequently) in Italian is “every death of a pope”.

Glenman

In reply to Yoda and other who mentioned the contraception issue, he just thought that there should be a need for it, people shouldn't be having sex outside marriage, it is a sin. Sex is not for pleasure.
The Pope's had huge faith in Jesus Christ and the fact that if we believe in him and admit to our sinful nature and try to be like him we will enjoy ever lasting life. That is the way it is. If people want to follow their own idea of faith, a lifestyle solely based on the false pleasures this world has to offer then that is up to them.

Memnoch

Glenman wrote:

we will enjoy ever lasting life.

hahahahahahahha... wait wait.... hahahahahaah....

That is the way it is. If people want to follow their own idea of faith, a lifestyle solely based on the false pleasures this world has to offer then that is up to them.

if people want to follow their own idea of faith, a lifestyle based on blind ignorance based solely on the false promises a political institution (religion) has to offer than that is up to them

MrPudding

If they decide to not have a day of mourning then fine, I would be happy for the day off. I would not be doing too much mourning though. What is annoying is that schools will be closed. Do they have no comprehension how much trouble short notice school days off cause working parents? Very inconsiderate.

MrP

Gilgamesh

imo I think that a day of mourning is fine, but no a day off for mourning.
Mother Theresa did more for the world than the Pope and they did diddly squat for her.
Ireland is also going by the saying 'Mexico is having a week of mourning, boohoo and we can't have one' this gets back to my point, Mexico is not closing everything for this, as Ireland was considering.

Also, I personally do not see why any Religion should have such an impact on everyday business, if the catholics are allowed to then let's got through all of the religious groups and implement a day of mourning for those crazy buggers who do mass suicide after a while.

BANZAI_RUNNER

well i think its a disgrace that this government is goverened by money, they should give a day of mourning on friday , i'm sure if Bertie died in office we would have a national day of mourning rammed down our throats, but we would accept it out of respect for the man , even if we did not agree with his policies, so in the case of the Pope , it should be given as a matter of respect , but it appears that respect in this case has a price tag on it....E 600 million, i look forward to when those FF weenies come calling to my house in the future.

MrPudding

Why don't we just have a day of mourning on Sunday? Makes more sense really, Sunday being religious already and all. It would be a super religious day of mourning. We could close all the Churches as a mark of respect.

MrP

rubadub

mike65 wrote:

If the pious want to take a day of offical holliday or an unpaid days leave then fine go ahead but let the rest of us get on with our lives.

Amen to that.
Somebody else said they would take exception to a "mandatory" day off, I presume they meant it would be taken out of their holiday entitlements, this cannot be done by most employers since most have to give 1 months notice by law. I know a few people who were forced to take good friday off with only a few days notice, it is not allowed though.

bonkey

BANZAI_RUNNER wrote:

well i think its a disgrace that this government is goverened by money, they should give a day of mourning on friday

Whether or not the government is or isn't ruled by money should have (and probably has) nothing to do with whether or not a day of mourning should be declared.

Would you insist on a day of mourning for the Dali Lama? What about Queen Elisabeth (given that she's the supreme head of the Church of England)? Any other religious leaders? Are there any religious leaders you wouldn't insist on a day of mourning for?

Why is this significant? Well, vecause people seem to be attaching some significance to the fact that the majority of the island and/or the Republic of Ireland (depending on which is less likely to cause you to pick an off-topic fight) is Catholic, whilst ignoring the fact that 22 years (and some change) ago we passed a constitutional amendment which removed the Catholic church's "favoured" position.

A national day of mourning would be just that - a declaration that the nation is in mourning. If we're not going to consider it for every religious leader who dies, then there is no argument for considering it for any. Indeed, to do otherwise would be unconstitutional.

i'm sure if Bertie died in office we would have a national day of mourning rammed down our throats,

Perhaps, but we do recognise the leader of our nation to have a higher position within the State than that of the leaders of all other nations.

We do not recognise any such supremacy for the leader of any single religion, nor should we.

but it appears that respect in this case has a price tag on it....E 600 million,

I don't care about the price-tag. We are constitutionally bound not to elevate one religion above others, and there is no way any Irish political party should consider acting in contradiction to that. Unless, as I said, they will give the same consideration (whether or not they also give the day of mourning) for every religious leader of every religion who dies.

i look forward to when those FF weenies come calling to my house in the future.

how you get yoru jollies is your business, but berating a political party for not acting unconstitutionally would be - in my opinion - a tad stupid.

Gilgamesh

I know I know,

let's have a day of mourning about not having a day of mourning ROFL.
this coul dbe extended sofar that we can all stay at home for the rest of the year

The Corinthian

bonkey wrote:

A national day of mourning would be just that - a declaration that the nation is in mourning. If we're not going to consider it for every religious leader who dies, then there is no argument for considering it for any. Indeed, to do otherwise would be unconstitutional.

Yet the precedent of holding a day of morning for a foreign event of limited relevance to Ireland has already been set and is a matter of government policy rather than constitution.

Would you insist on a day of mourning for the Dali Lama? What about Queen Elisabeth (given that she's the supreme head of the Church of England)? Any other religious leaders? Are there any religious leaders you wouldn't insist on a day of mourning for?

Given the precedent that was set I’d probably say all of the above, as well as a few of the more choice disasters, such as the tsunami, should be included too.

how you get yoru jollies is your business, but berating a political party for not acting unconstitutionally would be - in my opinion - a tad stupid.

I think the issue is not that the government is acting unconstitutionally, but inconsistently.

simu

As others have said, if we had a day of mourning for the WTC attacks, why not for the Pope? JP II meant a lot to many Irish people, older ones especially and as a non-believer, I don't find it offensive that such a day should be held. No one will be forced into Mass at gunpoint!

If people really are that worried about the separation of church and state, there are more important issues to tackle like the fact that most of our schools are still very much in the hands of the church.

GuanYin

simu wrote:

As others have said, if we had a day of mourning for the WTC attacks, why not for the Pope?

As TC said, did we have a day of mourning for the Tsunami victims?

Did we have a day of mourning for the death of any other non-irish head of state?

Did we have a day of mourning for the death of Yasser Arafat?

JP II meant a lot to many Irish people, older ones especially and as a non-believer, I don't find it offensive that such a day should be held. No one will be forced into Mass at gunpoint!

The pope was head of the catholic church, which is important to many people. But religion and state should be separated. I'm sure Yasser Arafat's death meant alot to some residents of Ireland but there was no day of mourning.

What about the non-catholics, when headsof their various religious belief systems die, will the country get a day of mourning?
Will we have one when Ian Paisley dies, will the country have a national day of mourning for Presbyterians in Ireland.

If people really are that worried about the separation of church and state, there are more important issues to tackle like the fact that most of our schools are still very much in the hands of the church.

Well conceeding to the chruch isn't going to rectify that.

I'd be more concerned about the message it would sendto minority faiths.

simu

Meh, have one for all those other religious leaders' deaths/tsunami-type events etc too if it keeps people happy. Personally, I don't care about days of mourning and such stuff. It's empty symbolism to me but others read more into them.

And if it turns out there are so many days of mourning going on that it's ruining the economy, the format of days of mourning could be changed to make them less intrusive.

Well conceeding to the chruch isn't going to rectify that.

I don't see it as a concession at all. Many people seem to be getting a buzz out of how "enlightened" this country is for not having a day of mourning and they see it as proof that Ireland isn't under the control of the church anymore and then they ignore concrete examples of where the church does exert considerable, undue power.

The Corinthian

psi wrote:

As TC said, did we have a day of mourning for the Tsunami victims?

Did we have a day of mourning for the death of any other non-irish head of state?

Did we have a day of mourning for the death of Yasser Arafat?

No, however given the precedent created by government policy we probably should have. This policy has never been properly defined and recent fudging over certain civil servants getting a day off - or not - continues this ambiguity.

Unfortunately, I would suspect that were the government to properly define the policy that gave us the WTC day of mourning it would be forced to admit that it was a once off event designed to kiss American ass. As such, the ambiguity will remain and people will remain quite entitled to demand such a day for other events.

The pope was head of the catholic church, which is important to many people. But religion and state should be separated.

Religion and State are divided in Ireland but not entirely, which is not unusual in the most countries. Most western countries will still give funding of schools administered by religious groups or coincide national and religious holidays. The reason for this is that religion is whether we like it or not often a component of ethnic or national identity and so full separation does not exist outside of totalitarian regimes.

Well conceeding to the chruch isn't going to rectify that.

Who’s conceding anything? Seriously - some people really do have to get over their Christian Brothers education. I get the impression that the majority of objections here are more about anti-Church sentiments rather than the principle of a day of mourning.

GuanYin

The Corinthian wrote:

.Who’s conceding anything? Seriously - some people really do have to get over their Christian Brothers education. I get the impression that the majority of objections here are more about anti-Church sentiments rather than the principle of a day of mourning.

Nope, not quite what I mean. I'm less in favour of it on the grounds that the catholicism isn't the only religion in Ireland (is it even the one most adhered to these days?) and as such I think picking and choosing who you have your days off for and who you don't isn't the way to go.

I'd say all or none on religious leaders for being religious leaders and seeing as they aren't going to do all, then I would think none is the option.

BolBill

Its a disgrace, and just another in a long list of Ahern f**k ups IMO

bonkey

The Corinthian wrote:

Yet the precedent of holding a day of morning for a foreign event of limited relevance to Ireland has already been set and is a matter of government policy rather than constitution.

It depends on the nature of the event, surely. There is nothing in our constitution which says we cannot nor should not commemorate significant events. What there is says that we cannot elevate one religion above another.

Declaring a national day of mourning for the religious leader of one religion arguably does that. Considering the religious leader of one religion for commemoration and not the others would almost definitely do that (in my opinion - I am not a High Court Judge).

Given the precedent that was set I’d probably say all of the above, as well as a few of the more choice disasters, such as the tsunami, should be included too.

Again - stuff like the tsunami is not an issue. There is nothing in our constitution which would say that we cannot nor should not commemorate such events.

However, the Pope was - religion aside - just a guy. Other than his religious position there isn't a single reason why we would declare - or consider declaring - a national day of mourning for his passing.

If we do that, then every single other religious leader who dies must be accorded the same due consideration, or we have acted unconstitutionally by the State not treating religions equally.

Incidentally, this also means that should any religious leader have died since 1973, then considering the Pope's passing as reason would (again, IMO) immediately imply either a previous lack of consideration was unconstitutional, or the current one was.

I think the issue is not that the government is acting unconstitutionally, but inconsistently.

I don't see the inconsistency you refer to, unless you decide not to distinguish between religiously-related and non-religiously-related issues, which immediately ignores the entire religiously-relevant Amendment that I'm referring to.

jc

The Corinthian

bonkey wrote:

It depends on the nature of the event, surely. There is nothing in our constitution which says we cannot nor should not commemorate significant events. What there is says that we cannot elevate one religion above another.

Which is why we get a bank holiday for Easter and two for Christmas, and why our national day is a Saint’s feast day :rolleyes:

Declaring a national day of mourning for the religious leader of one religion arguably does that.

Arguably.

Considering the religious leader of one religion for commemoration and not the others would almost definitely do that (in my opinion - I am not a High Court Judge).

I would agree.

Incidentally, this also means that should any religious leader have died since 1973, then considering the Pope's passing as reason would (again, IMO) immediately imply either a previous lack of consideration was unconstitutional, or the current one was.

No because the legitimacy for such an event is largely as a result of a government policy first enacted in 2001.

I don't see the inconsistency you refer to, unless you decide not to distinguish between religiously-related and non-religiously-related issues, which immediately ignores the entire religiously-relevant Amendment that I'm referring to.

Only if you elevate one religion over all others.

Sleepy

MrPudding wrote:

If they decide to not have a day of mourning then fine, I would be happy for the day off. I would not be doing too much mourning though. What is annoying is that schools will be closed. Do they have no comprehension how much trouble short notice school days off cause working parents? Very inconsiderate.

MrP

That's what happens when the church is let have a say in the running of the country and to this day the church still holds an enormously powerful position in the field of education, arguably the area in which they can infect most people with their belief system.

I still think the government missed it's opportunity to seize back the education system from the church as reparition for their abuses of the last century.

ArthurDent

MrPudding wrote:

If they decide to not have a day of mourning then fine, I would be happy for the day off. I would not be doing too much mourning though. What is annoying is that schools will be closed. Do they have no comprehension how much trouble short notice school days off cause working parents? Very inconsiderate.

MrP

I wonder how many schools will close? Its up to individual boards of management to decide if schools will close or not. In the case of our school - a multidenominational one, we won't but many parents have told us they will be keeping their children home on Friday to go to services. In school we are marking the fact that a world leader has died in the same way as we would mark the passing of any other - a discussion at assembly on the role he played in the world. A talk from one of the parents from the RC faith (and polish too) and a book of condolense should people wish to sign it. we have also said to staff that if they want time off to go to mass we will do our best to accomomdate it.

if my kids were in a catholic school i think I might find the school being open and having a mass and spending some time discussing the impact of JPII a more approipriate way to mark the day. JMO

daveirl

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GuanYin

daveirl wrote:

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Practicing or non practicing?

daveirl

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