[article] Gerry Adams Addreses the IRA

mike65 · 06-04-2005 5:00pm #1

from http://www.sinnfein.ie/news/detail/9106

I want to speak directly to the men and women of Oglaigh na hEireann, the volunteer soldiers of the Irish Republican Army.

In time of great peril you stepped into the Bearna Baoil, the gap of danger. When others stood idly by, you and your families gave your all, in defence of a risen people and in pursuit of Irish freedom and unity.

Against mighty odds you held the line and faced down a huge military foe, the British crown forces and their surrogates in the unionist death squads.

Eleven years ago the Army leadership ordered a complete cessation of military operations. This courageous decision was in response to proposals put forward by the Sinn Fein leadership to construct a peace process, build democratic politics and achieve a lasting peace.

Since then despite many provocations and setbacks the cessation has endured.

And more than that, when elements within the British and Irish establishments and rejectionist unionism delayed progress, it was the IRA leadership which authorised a number of significant initiatives to enhance the peace process.

On a number of occasions commitments have been reneged on. These include commitments from the two governments.

The Irish Republican Army has kept every commitment made by its leadership.

The most recent of these was last December when the IRA was prepared to support a comprehensive agreement. At that time the Army leadership said the implementation of this agreement would allow everyone, including the IRA, to take its political objectives forward by peaceful and democratic means.

That agreement perished on the rock of unionist intransigence. The shortsightedness of the two governments compounded the difficulties.

Since then there has been a vicious campaign of vilification against republicans, driven in the main by the Irish government. There are a number of reasons for this.

The growing political influence of Sinn Fein is a primary factor.

The unionists also for their part, want to minimise the potential for change, not only on the equality agenda but on the issues of sovereignty and ending the union.

The IRA is being used as the excuse by them all not to engage properly in the process of building peace with justice in Ireland.

For over thirty years the IRA showed that the British government could not rule Ireland on its own terms. You asserted the legitimacy of the right of the people of this island to freedom and independence. Many of your comrades made the ultimate sacrifice.

Your determination, selflessness and courage have brought the freedom struggle towards its fulfillment.

That struggle can now be taken forward by other means. I say this with the authority of my office as President of Sinn Fein.

In the past I have defended the right of the IRA to engage in armed struggle. I did so because there was no alternative for those who would not bend the knee, or turn a blind eye to oppression, or for those who wanted a national republic.

Now there is an alternative.

I have clearly set out my view of what that alternative is. The way forward is by building political support for republican and democratic objectives across Ireland and by winning support for these goals internationally.

I want to use this occasion therefore to appeal to the leadership of Oglaigh na hEireann to fully embrace and accept this alternative.

Can you take courageous initiatives which will achieve your aims by purely political and democratic activity?

I know full well that such truly historic decisions can only be taken in the aftermath of intense internal consultation. I ask that you initiate this as quickly as possible.

I understand fully that the IRAs most recent positive contribution to the peace process was in the context of a comprehensive agreement. But I also hold the very strong view that republicans need to lead by example.

There is no greater demonstration of this than the IRA cessation in the summer of 1994.

Sinn Fein has demonstrated the ability to play a leadership role as part of a popular movement towards peace, equality and justice.

We are totally commited to ending partition and to creating the conditions for unity and independence. Sinn Fein has the potential and capacity to become the vehicle for the attainment of republican objectives.

The Ireland we live in today is also very different place from 15 years ago. There is now an all-Ireland agenda with huge potential.

Nationalists and republicans have a confidence that will never again allow anyone to be treated as second class citizens. Equality is our watchword.

The catalyst for much of this change is the growing support for republicanism.

Of course, those who oppose change are not going to simply roll over. It will always be a battle a day between those who want maximum change and those who want to maintain the status quo. But if republicans are to prevail, if the peace process is to be successfully concluded and Irish sovereignty and re-unification secured, then we have to set the agenda - no one else is going to do that.

So, I also want to make a personal appeal to all of you - the women and men volunteers who have remained undefeated in the face of tremendous odds.

Now is the time for you to step into the Bearna Baoil again; not as volunteers risking life and limb but as activists in a national movement towards independence and unity.

Such decisions will be far reaching and difficult. But you never lacked courage in the past. Your courage is now needed for the future.

It won‚t be easy. There are many problems to be resolved by the people of Ireland in the time ahead. Your ability as republican volunteers, to rise to this challenge will mean that the two governments and others cannot easily hide from their obligations and their responsibility to resolve these problems.

Our struggle has reached a defining moment.

I am asking you to join me in seizing this moment, to intensify our efforts, to rebuild the peace process and decisively move our struggle forward.

When I heard of this speech earlier today I was wondering if he'd actually say "time for peace time to go" to the PIRA. And he has I think...intersting to see what follows..if anything. The last thing SF or indeed anyone needs is for the PIRA not to respond and pretty quickly.

Mike.

Squaletto · 06-04-2005 5:14pm

It is brilliant to hear Mr Adams tell us all what had to be said to those who doubted Adams in the past.
Bravo Gerry, now lets get down to the real work of uniting the island through peaceful means.

colster · 06-04-2005 6:17pm

Squaletto wrote:

It is brilliant to hear Mr Adams tell us all what had to be said to those who doubted Adams in the past.
Bravo Gerry, now lets get down to the real work of uniting the island through peaceful means.

Should have said this a long time ago. Better late than never I suppose.

Villain · 06-04-2005 6:31pm

I welcome this speech, I just hope the IRA repsond in a positive manner and we can move forward.

cdebru · 06-04-2005 6:40pm

not much alternative the leadership of the republican movement have known since the beginning of this process that the IRA would have to go away they hoped to hold onto it for the greatest political advantage they could achieve by making them go away

the threat of the PIRA is gone so there is no political advantage in holding on to it the Brits the unionists the Irish government all know the IRA cannot go back to war so there is no incentive on them to make any further compromise to achieve an end to the IRA
at this stage the IRA is holding up an agreement so they have to go

as ted said time to hold and a time to fold

cdebru · 06-04-2005 6:43pm

irish1 wrote:

I welcome this speech, I just hope the IRA repsond in a positive manner and we can move forward.

well there are only two possibilities

1 the IRA respond positively which is what i would imagine is going to happen
probably to be announced just in time to convince middle class nationalists for the election

2 the IRA refuse at which stage there is a seperation which i dont believe is possible but might also play well for middle class nationalists

colster · 06-04-2005 6:46pm

irish1 wrote:

I welcome this speech, I just hope the IRA repsond in a positive manner and we can move forward.

I'd be very surprised if they didn't.
I think Adams is setting the tone for the disbandment and maximising the potential electoral gain.

bonkey · 06-04-2005 8:47pm

Just saw the tail-end of an interview with a Sinn Fein bod on CNN....the comment I found interesting was that he hedged when asked what he thought the IRA reaction/response would be.

He basically said "we expect there will be a response, in due course". When pushed, he claimed that this wasn't an election tactic, but also said that he couldn't say whether it would be before or after the election when the IRA would give their response.

This just rings a bit hollow to me. I hope I'm wrong, and it is a signal that we'll move on to the next stage of the game (where someone else will hold up significant progress for some other reason) but I've a feeling that any answer will not be anything more than a placatory statement which will then be pointed at by some saying "empty words", and by others saying "this is exactly what you asked of them, and now they've given it, it yet again gets dismissed as insufficient" and that we'll start singing a Del Amitri track....

jc

Sand · 06-04-2005 9:00pm

Im sorry, it sounds like pure waffle to me and on top of that a dire case of multiple personality disorder. When or if SF/IRA decide to disband their military and demonstrate through 0 punishment beatings and 0 paramilitary activity, then Ill believe it. Until then its only the same old "historic moment" ****e warmed up and served up. SF/IRA havent even stopped recruiting given the age profile of O Snodaighs punishment gang. That for me demonstrates the truth behind the soundbites.

And theres no worries about any reaction from the Army Council. I really really doubt Gerry does his politicking on the Council via the media. There are two ways this will play out:

A) The Army Council issues some waffly statement in return. Everyone hails SF/IRA for their heroic decision not to kill people officially. Meanwhile, they just keep going on doing what theyre doing already. Punishment beatings continue, criminal activity continues, recruitment continues, training continues. The same wilful ignorance on the part of the media and commentators continues as they desperately strive to convince themselves the IRA really has gone away you know.

The Army Council denounces Adams. A crisis is stage managed and SF is officially decoupled from the IRA, which insists it is still going to keep to the ceasefire. Meanwhile, they just keep doing what theyre doing already. Punishment beatings continue, criminal activity continues, recruitment continues, training continues. Only now SF can pretend it has nothing to do with the IRA, which theyve plenty of practise at.

cdebru · 06-04-2005 9:54pm

Sand wrote:

Im sorry, it sounds like pure waffle to me and on top of that a dire case of multiple personality disorder. When or if SF/IRA decide to disband their military and demonstrate through 0 punishment beatings and 0 paramilitary activity, then Ill believe it. Until then its only the same old "historic moment" ****e warmed up and served up. SF/IRA havent even stopped recruiting given the age profile of O Snodaighs punishment gang. That for me demonstrates the truth behind the soundbites.

And theres no worries about any reaction from the Army Council. I really really doubt Gerry does his politicking on the Council via the media. There are two ways this will play out:

A) The Army Council issues some waffly statement in return. Everyone hails SF/IRA for their heroic decision not to kill people officially. Meanwhile, they just keep going on doing what theyre doing already. Punishment beatings continue, criminal activity continues, recruitment continues, training continues. The same wilful ignorance on the part of the media and commentators continues as they desperately strive to convince themselves the IRA really has gone away you know.

The Army Council denounces Adams. A crisis is stage managed and SF is officially decoupled from the IRA, which insists it is still going to keep to the ceasefire. Meanwhile, they just keep doing what theyre doing already. Punishment beatings continue, criminal activity continues, recruitment continues, training continues. Only now SF can pretend it has nothing to do with the IRA, which theyve plenty of practise at.

it does not matter if they still recruited before/if they decide to disband they are on ceasefire that does not mean they can not recruit or even train neither of those would be abreach of ceasefire

if they announce they are disbanding and they are still active recruiting or anything else that would be different

logonapr · 06-04-2005 9:59pm

Considering that Gerry Adams & Martin McGuiness are both on the IRA army council wouldn't it have been nice if he went on to answer his own questions that he posed to himself, McGuiness, Ferris etc.

Interestingly he makes no mention of the whole criminality issue so presumably it will still be OK to rob banks, kill people for alleged insults in bars, run protection rackets, run smuggling rackets etc.

Nobody seriously thinks the IRA have the appetite to return to military action and considering that much more lucrative occupations have been found by many of the 'volunteers' I can confidently predict that Gerry will respond positively to himself.

cdebru · 06-04-2005 10:00pm

bonkey wrote:

Just saw the tail-end of an interview with a Sinn Fein bod on CNN....the comment I found interesting was that he hedged when asked what he thought the IRA reaction/response would be.

He basically said "we expect there will be a response, in due course". When pushed, he claimed that this wasn't an election tactic, but also said that he couldn't say whether it would be before or after the election when the IRA would give their response.

This just rings a bit hollow to me. I hope I'm wrong, and it is a signal that we'll move on to the next stage of the game (where someone else will hold up significant progress for some other reason) but I've a feeling that any answer will not be anything more than a placatory statement which will then be pointed at by some saying "empty words", and by others saying "this is exactly what you asked of them, and now they've given it, it yet again gets dismissed as insufficient" and that we'll start singing a Del Amitri track....

jc

well i would be shocked if adams does not already know what the answer is going to be of course sinn fein are not going to say what that is or upstage the IRA by hinting at what it is going to be

i would expect the answer before the 5th of may possibly in the last week of the election for maximum impact

if the answer is going to be negative i would expect it sooner to allow SF to decouple as sand puts it before the election

and it is most definitely an election tactic
perhaps not one they would have wanted to play but events have forced them to

Villain · 06-04-2005 10:08pm

IMO there is 2 angles on this, maybe more, there are the people who believe that Gerry Adams is not a member of the Army Council but has a strong influence over the members, then you have the people who can't seperate Sinn Fein and the IRA so they believe Adams & McGuinness control both organisations.

If you believe the latter you will think why is Adams talking to himself and your sure that the IRA will respond by supporting Adams call for peaceful and democratic means to be the only way forward.

However if like me you believe that while Adams has influence over the Army Council he doesn't sit on it or control it, and so wonder what the IRA will do, IMO it really depends on the leading members of that organisation. Will they refuse to decommision and cease all activites until they have a complete deal in front of them? or will they take this step to bring the peace process back on track.

I believe that the IRA will give a commitement to put all arms beyond use and cease all activites but only in return for certain things, I really can't see the IRA giving up all their bargaining chips until they are certain of something in return. IMO the IRA would know that if they do that Paisley will be on every news channel declaring the Unionists have won and the Republicans have lost and while that will not only make the IRA sick it could lead to a major split where large members of the Provos could join the RIRA or CIRA.

If the IRA could make sure the killers of Robert McCartney are brought to justice (through the crown courts) and put 50% of all remaining arms are put beyond use with a commitment to decommision the other 50% within a certain time frame then I think we could see an historic deal being brokered.

I think it's interesting that Mr McDowell hasn't being shouting down Sinn Fein after this statement, perhaps Bertie has for once managed to control his Minister.

Villain · 06-04-2005 10:12pm

logonapr wrote:

Considering that Gerry Adams & Martin McGuiness are both on the IRA army council wouldn't it have been nice if he went on to answer his own questions that he posed to himself, McGuiness, Ferris etc.

In Your opinion! there is no factual evidence to support your claim.

Sorry to be so exact but it just bugs me that people try and pass these claims off as a fact.

logonapr · 06-04-2005 10:51pm

irish1 wrote:

In Your opinion! there is no factual evidence to support your claim.

Sorry to be so exact but it just bugs me that people try and pass these claims off as a fact.

The weight of circumstantial evidence is collosal. Bottom line is that given a choice between believing Adams & our police & government (despite their faults) I know which I would tend towards.

Its not as if Adams has a record for being truthful.
As recently as the NI bank raid he has no doubt that IRA/Sinn Féin were not involved despite some of the traceable money being located with his fellow travellers.

I also cannot prove that Robert McCartney was murdered by IRA thugs. Perhaps it was suicide seeing that all the Sinn Fein people saw nothing that night.
Despite all the rhetoric & posturing not one has given a detailed statement of events. They either saw nothing or alternatively present themselves for questioning and then sit in silence not answering any questions.

I have no problem in admitting that I do not differentiate between the leadership of the IRA & that of Sinn Féin and fear for my country if we were ever to see these thugs in power and running their rackets & intimidating people.
I simply do not want to share their vision of a Free Ireland if freedom to speak as exemplified by the citizenry of Short Strand is what we can all aspire towards.

flogen · 06-04-2005 11:52pm

All I read there was something from a master of realpolitiking. If the IRA were to come out and agree to Gerry Adam's wishes, what would that mean? He hasn't asked them to disband, decommission or anything, just support the peace process (ok, that would involve decommissioning). So where would we be? Well to me we'd be no further than we were before P O Neill told us the IRA were pulling out of the decommissioning process. We'd have the IRA saying they support the peace process but aren't happy with the details and Sinn Fein trying to argue their point with whoever will listen (and if soundings from Bertie and Paisley are to be taken as gospel it won't be anyone important).

this line: "That agreement perished on the rock of unionist intransigence. The shortsightedness of the two governments compounded the difficulties."
Interests me. He's basically saying that the Unionists were the unreasonable ones, and the two governments were no help either. Fair enough, so where now? The Unionists have out-done the Republicans in shifting blame, and while they did have some weight on their shoulders over the pictures issue the following events showed that their scepticism (however genuine) was well founded.
If the IRA and Sinn Fein had any sense they'd realise that agreeing to Paisleys demands would be the best thing to do, they'd have the higher ground and the DUP would either have to stick to their word and deliver power sharing or else retreat and show themselves to be liars.

aidan_walsh · 06-04-2005 11:54pm

mike65 wrote:

"time for peace time to go"

Until I realised that there was a comma missing, I was wondering where you got a declaration of war out of it

Whoops...

BuffyBot · 07-04-2005 12:04am

He basically said "we expect there will be a response, in due course". When pushed, he claimed that this wasn't an election tactic, but also said that he couldn't say whether it would be before or after the election when the IRA would give their response.

To me, at this moment in time, it's just more empty (but amazingly well timed considering the proximity of the elections and continuing media coverage of the McCartney issue) piece of SF fluff. Lovely sentiments, but little substance. The most interesting piece of this all will be the response of the IRA itself, and what that will contain.

I hope that I'll be surprised, but I'm not holding my breath

Sand · 07-04-2005 1:08am

if they announce they are disbanding and they are still active recruiting or anything else that would be different

No, it would be typical of them. Their ceasefire declared an end to all military activity. More importantly, because military leaves a lot of scope for wordplay (Id argue that the word military doesnt cover any of the SF/IRA actions afterall), they specifically said

It is our desire to significantly contribute to the creation of a climate which will encourage [inclusive negotiations]

The continuation of recruitment, training, punishment beatings and killings is a breach of their undertaking to contribute to the create of a climate which will encourage negotiations. In the GFA they signed up to decommissioning within 2 years of the GFA being accepted. We're still waiting. Hence, the dominance of the DUP over the more moderate UUP.

SF/IRA are near pathological liars. They cannot be trusted in the slightest. In any deal every stage of it will have to be definitly and clearly linked to scheduled action on their part. That includes 0 punishment beatings and 0 paramilitary activity over an extended period of time after they claim to have disbanded. Theyve demonstrated what their word alone is worth, nothing.

If you believe the latter you will think why is Adams talking to himself and your sure that the IRA will respond by supporting Adams call for peaceful and democratic means to be the only way forward.

Irish1, you do not credit Adams and co with the proper level of deviousness. Why is SF/IRA getting slammed these days? The actions of the IRA. It would be difficult to disband the IRA without alienating a large group of heavily armed scumbags. What to do, what to do. I know, lets declare that SF and the IRA are seperate! Wait, no one believes that. Darn.

Wait, lets stage manage an argument and a lovers tiff. I think its quite possible well see SF and the IRA trading unfriendly statements , and eventually declaring their mutual dislike. Hooray, now when SF says they dont have anything to do with the IRA theyll be able to point to all the bitter statements.

But in reality, it will be same old, same old. SF/IRA will still have the ability to embrace thuggish violence, but they wont have to take responsibility for it.

put 50% of all remaining arms are put beyond use with a commitment to decommision the other 50% within a certain time frame then I think we could see an historic deal being brokered.

Oh yeah, like the promise they made before to do it within 2 years. Sure why wouldnt you trust their word? Nah, dont even bother with the 50% upfront. Im sure theyre good for it.
Seriously, do you expect Unionists to accept that as the basis of a deal?

In Your opinion! there is no factual evidence to support your claim.

There is plenty. You refuse to accept or counter it. You simply try to pretend it doesnt exist. I have posted it several times and you have never, ever been able to counter it.

DapperGent · 07-04-2005 1:23am

I wonder how long he'll wait before drafting the response.

cdebru · 07-04-2005 1:47am

Sand wrote:

No, it would be typical of them. Their ceasefire declared an end to all military activity. More importantly, because military leaves a lot of scope for wordplay (Id argue that the word military doesnt cover any of the SF/IRA actions afterall), they specifically said .

actually they said

there will be a complete cessation of military operations

Sand wrote:

The continuation of recruitment, training, punishment beatings and killings is a breach of their undertaking to contribute to the create of a climate which will encourage negotiations. In the GFA they signed up to decommissioning within 2 years of the GFA being accepted. We're still waiting. Hence, the dominance of the DUP over the more moderate UUP..

it is your opinion that recruiting training punishment beatings etc are a breach of its ceasefire

IMO military operations would be attacks on crown forces and loyalist paramilitaries
armies dont stop training and recruiting because they are on ceasefire or not engaged in a war

the unionist people are quite capable of voting for whoever they like it is also true that if the UUP had been a more pro agreement party than a weaker than the DUP anti agreement party things may have been different as well

Sand wrote:

SF/IRA are near pathological liars. They cannot be trusted in the slightest. In any deal every stage of it will have to be definitly and clearly linked to scheduled action on their part. That includes 0 punishment beatings and 0 paramilitary activity over an extended period of time after they claim to have disbanded. Theyve demonstrated what their word alone is worth, nothing..

the IRA did not sign up to anything all the parties agreed to use their influence

All participants accordingly reaffirm their commitment to the total disarmament of all paramilitary organisations. They also confirm their intention to continue to work constructively and in good faith with the Independent Commission, and to use any influence they may have, to achieve the decommissioning of all paramilitary arms within two years following endorsement in referendums North and South of the agreement and in the context of the implementation of the overall settlement.

Sand wrote:

Irish1, you do not credit Adams and co with the proper level of deviousness. Why is SF/IRA getting slammed these days? The actions of the IRA. It would be difficult to disband the IRA without alienating a large group of heavily armed scumbags. What to do, what to do. I know, lets declare that SF and the IRA are seperate! Wait, no one believes that. Darn.

Wait, lets stage manage an argument and a lovers tiff. I think its quite possible well see SF and the IRA trading unfriendly statements , and eventually declaring their mutual dislike. Hooray, now when SF says they dont have anything to do with the IRA theyll be able to point to all the bitter statements.

But in reality, it will be same old, same old. SF/IRA will still have the ability to embrace thuggish violence, but they wont have to take responsibility for it.

Oh yeah, like the promise they made before to do it within 2 years. Sure why wouldnt you trust their word? Nah, dont even bother with the 50% upfront. Im sure theyre good for it.
Seriously, do you expect Unionists to accept that as the basis of a deal?

There is plenty. You refuse to accept or counter it. You simply try to pretend it doesnt exist. I have posted it several times and you have never, ever been able to counter it.

I suggest sand that we wait and see no point making up your mind now what is definitely going to happen

as i have already pointed the IRA never promised nor did anyone else to decommission within 2 years it was a fudge on using influence and it was up to all parties to use influence

and just for the record the GFA was not just an agreement on decommissioning although it is the only aspect that seems to interest you

we are still waiting for the full implementation of the
patten report on policing
removal of security installations
normalisation of security
the reduction of the numbers and role of the Armed Forces deployed in Northern Ireland to levels compatible with a normal peaceful society
changes in the justice system
prisoner releases

the institutions set up by the GFA

we need the whole GFA implemented not just the parts that apppeal to you

Mighty_Mouse · 07-04-2005 11:57am

Lord god!

- Movement on agreed decommissioning procedures,
- Movement on the release of certain prisoners
- Movement on support for policing
etc

- and now effin disbandment!!

The above in the context of NOTHING been given on the other side!!!

Yet people can still come in here and crib!

Gerry Adams has move the IRA to the brink of disbandment in a situation where, no political pressure is put on Loyalist parimilitaries to disband, investigations into police collusion, MI5 Executions are being obstruction, policing reform is incomplete, unionists support of the GFA is zero, political support of the GFA from Brits and Republic is based on public opinion, demilitarisation is incomplete etc etc etc

At this stage I can honestly say, I dont know what more Sinn Fein can offer at the negotiation table.

Tar and Feathers anyone?

Sherlock · 07-04-2005 12:24pm

DapperGent wrote:

I wonder how long he'll wait before drafting the response.

I'm sure hes already agreed the reply with the lads, its a question of when they release it.

SF/IRA have had all their prisoners released (except the McCabe killers), military towers have been taken down all around the North, not all but then the CIRA and RIRA are still active. The PSNI has been established with the requirement that all new recruitment will include 50% catholics. Cross border bodies were set up, something unionists always opposed.
And what have SF/IRA given in return?...they've stopped killing people, great...well unless you don't count drug dealers or people who cross them in some way. Still recruiting, why unless they plan on returning to full scale violence. Still keeping observations on politicians here and drawing up dossiers of their movements, why?.
Loyalists paramilitaries have no elected politicians representing them hence they can have no sanction imposed on them by Governments and must be dealt with by the police.

Blub2k4 · 07-04-2005 12:24pm

Mighty_Mouse wrote:

Lord god!

- Movement on agreed decommissioning procedures,
- Movement on the release of certain prisoners
- Movement on support for policing
etc

- and now effin disbandment!!

The above in the context of NOTHING been given on the other side!!!

Yet people can still come in here and crib!

Gerry Adams has move the IRA to the brink of disbandment in a situation where, no political pressure is put on Loyalist parimilitaries to disband, investigations into police collusion, MI5 Executions are being obstruction, policing reform is incomplete, unionists support of the GFA is zero, political support of the GFA from Brits and Republic is based on public opinion, demilitarisation is incomplete etc etc etc

At this stage I can honestly say, I dont know what more Sinn Fein can offer at the negotiation table.

Tar and Feathers anyone?

You're spot on, I think some people here wish to see a "pythonesque" scene of every sympathiser out on the street with a plank hitting themselves in the head and with each blow shouting " we were wrong to ever stand up for Irish rights, we were wrong to ever stand up for Irish rights...." ad infinitum.

Mighty_Mouse · 07-04-2005 1:28pm

I'm sure hes already agreed the reply with the lads, its a question of when they release it.

You now have a problem with Gerry Adams sounding out the IRA's thoughts on disbandment!!

SF/IRA have had all their prisoners released (except the McCabe killers),

Are the Castlerea IRA men no longer in prison? Were they not convicted before 1998.

military towers have been taken down all around the North, not all but then the CIRA and RIRA are still active.

as opposed to full normalisation as promised. THE CIRA, RIRA !!! give me a break.

The PSNI has been established with the requirement that all new recruitment will include 50% catholics

Bravo, now wheres the rest of the requirements.

Cross border bodies were set up, something unionists always opposed.

Um!! Oh! so the unionists have had to give also. Your point?

Loyalists paramilitaries have no elected politicians representing them hence they can have no sanction imposed on them by Governments and must be dealt with by the police.

So you dont want to see senior unionist politicians actively calling for disbandment of loyalist paramilitaries?

bonkey · 07-04-2005 1:29pm

Mighty_Mouse wrote:

- and now effin disbandment!!

Where?

Yet people can still come in here and crib!

Yes. They can, and indeed have very valid reasons to do so.

This is far from the first time that SF or the IRA have made statements that stop short of what is being demanded, but which are billed as significant. Time after time after time after time after time we find out that what was said was never meant to be taken at face value, but rather should be tested against whatever happens, and if the words can fit, then thats clearly what was meant.

Gerry Adams has move the IRA to the brink of disbandment

I'll believe that when there's actual disbandment. Until then, thats nothing more than an unsubstantiable claim.

Although its interesting to see that a sentence ago it was "disbandment", and now its already only "the brink of disbandment". What next?

in a situation where ...

Lets shorten that. What you're basically saying is "in a situation where the Republican's aren't solely to blame", and asking "why should Republican's right their wrongs when no-one else is doing likewise".

See - if you cut away all the pretty wording, and ask it that way....the answer (to me, at least) seems self-evident.

Besides...no-one has claimed the Republicans aren't solely to blame. They are root cause of the most significant stuimbling blocks at this point in time, which is why they are getting the focus.

If someone is dying of a severed carotid, and has hypothermia...which do you deal with first? Does dealing with the horrific neck wound mean that you're saying hypothermia isn't a problem, and doesn't need to be dealt with?

At this stage I can honestly say, I dont know what more Sinn Fein can offer at the negotiation table.

An example that would show that they're no longer willing to be one of the hypocrites alongside everynoe else, but rather are actually going to do what they set out to....thus putting everyone else on the back foot?

Lord no...that would never work. They should demand everyone else's hypocracy is dealt with first before they do anyth....oh, hang on...that what's happennig. Its what you're effectively insinuating in your post!

Tar and Feathers anyone?

No thanks. I'd rather one party or faction - and I'll be honest, I don't care whether its Republican, Unionist, the Irish government or the English government - actually start actively setting an example for all the others by showing that it is willing to move forward and fulfill its obligations without requiring that everyone else do so with theirs first.

Hell, I'd settle for anything that showed that anyone involved in the entire process actually showed they understood the real meaning of the word compromise.

jc

Blub2k4 · 07-04-2005 1:31pm

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Northern_Ireland/Story/0,2763,1454255,00.html

The Guardian wrote:

12.15pm
IRA responds to Adams appeal

Mark Oliver and agencies
Thursday April 7, 2005

The IRA said today it was giving "due consideration" to the appeal by the Sinn Féin president, Gerry Adams, for it to fully embrace politics and abandon the armed struggle.

In a brief statement released to the Press Association news agency under the IRA's pen name of P O'Neill, the Republican group said: "The leadership of the IRA was given notice of the appeal by Sinn Féin president Gerry Adams. We have noted his comments. The IRA will give his appeal due consideration and will respond in due course."

In a speech yesterday in west Belfast that was described as extraordinary by analysts, Mr Adams said that, while in the past he had defended the IRA's right to engage in armed struggle, there was now an alternative in "building political support for republican and democratic objectives".

He appealed to the IRA "to fully embrace and accept this alternative", but did not go as far as calling for the IRA to disband.

Republican sources said last night the Sinn Féin leader was attempting to urge the IRA to consider its own future ahead of any negotiations which could start up after the general election, possibly in the autumn.

However, unionists have responded sceptically, noting the statement was delivered on the second day of a general election campaign in which Sinn Féin hopes to assert its dominance over the rival nationalist party, the SDLP, which it has eclipsed in recent elections.

The SDLP's leader, Mark Durkan, questioned whether Mr Adams's statement was sincere and today said his was the only party in the province with proposals that would bring a quick end to direct rule in the province.

The Stormont power-sharing assembly, which was created after the 1998 Good Friday agreement, was suspended in October 2002 after claims about a republican spying ring at the Northern Ireland Office.

Today Mr Durkan told the ePolitix website: "If people want to return to the agreement then they should return the SDLP in greater strength. History shows that when the SDLP vote goes up then we all make progress and that when the more extreme problem parties make gains we all stay stuck."

The Democratic Unionist party leader, Ian Paisley, yesterday dismissed Mr Adams's speech as a "political stunt". He said: "There must be a complete and total abandonment of IRA/Sinn Féin and that's not going to happen. The DUP won't be back in any negotiating table. "

Northern Ireland's peace process stalled at the end of last year over whether the IRA would allow weapons decommissioning to be photographed. The republican movement was then thrown into crisis by allegations the IRA carried out December's £26.5m Northern Bank raid in Belfast and was involved in the murder of Catholic man Robert McCartney in January.

Pressure has been mounting on the IRA to abandon violence and crime and disband. Last month Mr Adams had a cool reception during his annual St Patrick's Day trip to boost support in the US, where Mr McCartney's sisters were, in contrast, welcomed by the US president, George Bush, and other leaders.

Earlier today, Sinn Féin's vice-president, Pat Doherty, said Mr Adams's speech had prompted debate within the movement. Speaking in London, Mr Doherty said: "This is a huge issue ... everybody who has lived through the conflict in the north knows the reality of violence [from] the British army and the unionist death squads. Many republicans and nationalists see the IRA as their defenders.

"There will be a rational intellectual debate but there will be an element of emotion in all of this and it will take time for all of that to work its way through."

He denied that Mr Adams had made his statement in an attempt to shore up support for Sinn Féin among nationalists following the murder of Mr McCartney and ahead of the general election on May 5.

Yesterday, Mr Adams said he had defended the armed struggle in the past because, at the time, "there was no alternative for those who would not bend the knee, or turn a blind eye to oppression, or for those who wanted a national republic ... [but now] the way forward is by building political support for republican and democratic objectives across Ireland and by winning support for these goals internationally."

Downing Street said the statement was "significant" and hoped it was the way forward "to peaceful and democratic means".

However, the Irish prime minister, Bertie Ahern, said: "Nothing less than a complete and decisive end to all IRA activity and capability will be acceptable if there is to be any prospect of achieving inclusive politics in Northern Ireland."

Well there you have it the IRA are considering a response to Gerry Adams appeal, let's hope the outcome is positive.

Lemming · 07-04-2005 2:48pm

cdebru wrote:

it is your opinion that recruiting training punishment beatings etc are a breach of its ceasefire

All of the above are "operations", ie. they are planned, focused, and carried out over a duration of time to achieve a desired result.

Whilst recruitment could be considered a grey area, training & punishment beatings are most definitely black and white.

IMO military operations would be attacks on crown forces and loyalist paramilitaries
armies dont stop training and recruiting because they are on ceasefire or not engaged in a war

Actually, military operations would be any operation carried out in the name of the entity in question. A punishment beating is carried out in the name of the IRA and all involved are threatened with reprisals by the IRA, just like a bomb blast is carried out in the name of the IRA. There. Is. No. Difference.

I suggest sand that we wait and see no point making up your mind now what is definitely going to happen

That is the only thing so far that you have ever written that I would agree with. I will, to quote the phrase, believe it when it happens. Until then, it's the same old sh*t swallowed and expelled time and again.

as i have already pointed the IRA never promised nor did anyone else to decommission within 2 years it was a fudge on using influence and it was up to all parties to use influence

Ummm, would you care to point out the clause in the GFA where that was stated?

and just for the record the GFA was not just an agreement on decommissioning although it is the only aspect that seems to interest you

Interested in because it's highly relevant and a core area whicha great deal many parties are interested in seeing resolved sooner rather than later.

we need the whole GFA implemented not just the parts that apppeal to you

Which would you consider the more serious .... a body to be implemented, or disarming an active private army accountable to nobody and shouldn't exist in the first place?

Would you negotiate in good faith with someone whilst they're pointing a gun at you? Or would you tell them to lose the gun first?

Sand · 07-04-2005 2:51pm

it is your opinion that recruiting training punishment beatings etc are a breach of its ceasefire

As I already noted, the term "military" leaves a lot of scope for wordplay. It can mean whatever SF/IRA find it convenient to mean. There is certainly no definition of it that I would feel applies to any action undertaken by SF/IRA so it could technically be absolutely meaningless.

This is the sort of evasiveness and non-commital attitude towards the peace process that has led to the provos squandering whatever creditibility they might ever have had. If SF/IRA can interpret an undertaking to maintain a *complete* cessation of "military" operations, and a wish to contribute to an atmosphere aidding negotiation as allowing them to continue recruiting, training, procuring arms, engaging in punishment beatings, murdering people who cross and various criminal activities then whose to say what their interpretation of disbandment will allow them to carry out?

the IRA did not sign up to anything all the parties agreed to use their influence

Again, another example of SF/IRA's attitude to commitments and agreements - they cannot be trusted and any concessions to them will have to be linked to specific, verifiable actions on their part. The GFA shows that creative ambiguity such as the above is not tolerable anymore.

we need the whole GFA implemented not just the parts that apppeal to you

Yeah, so SF/IRA should decommission, disband, engage with policing, and wholly commit themsevles in *deed* to peaceful legitimate politics! All other participants have done far more to fufill their obligations under the GFA than the provos have. For them to whinge about others inactivity when they are the worst offenders by far is surreal. Dont they recognise that the proccess has died because of them, not anyone else?

You're spot on, I think some people here wish to see a "pythonesque" scene of every sympathiser out on the street with a plank hitting themselves in the head and with each blow shouting " we were wrong to ever stand up for Irish rights, we were wrong to ever stand up for Irish rights...." ad infinitum.

SF/IRA never, ever waged their terrorist campaign for Irish rights. Never, ever, ever. It was the civil rights movement that attracted attention to the plight of Northern Catholics and forced reform that was was far faster accomplished than after SF/IRA started leaving bombs in pubs and throwing nail bombs into resteraunts and kidnapping families to force fathers/husbands to drive truck bombs to check points on suicide missions.

SF/IRA piggybacked on the civil rights movement, but it has never been interested in anything other than a United Ireland - civil rights are inconsequential to them. All that has ever been important to them is destroying the border no matter how much blood is shed.

Stabshauptmann · 07-04-2005 3:14pm

Sand wrote:

Im sorry, it sounds like pure waffle to me and on top of that a dire case of multiple personality disorder. When or if SF/IRA decide to disband their military and demonstrate through 0 punishment beatings and 0 paramilitary activity, then Ill believe it. Until then its only the same old "historic moment" ****e warmed up and served up. SF/IRA havent even stopped recruiting given the age profile of O Snodaighs punishment gang. That for me demonstrates the truth behind the soundbites.

And theres no worries about any reaction from the Army Council. I really really doubt Gerry does his politicking on the Council via the media. There are two ways this will play out:

A) The Army Council issues some waffly statement in return. Everyone hails SF/IRA for their heroic decision not to kill people officially. Meanwhile, they just keep going on doing what theyre doing already. Punishment beatings continue, criminal activity continues, recruitment continues, training continues. The same wilful ignorance on the part of the media and commentators continues as they desperately strive to convince themselves the IRA really has gone away you know.

The Army Council denounces Adams. A crisis is stage managed and SF is officially decoupled from the IRA, which insists it is still going to keep to the ceasefire. Meanwhile, they just keep doing what theyre doing already. Punishment beatings continue, criminal activity continues, recruitment continues, training continues. Only now SF can pretend it has nothing to do with the IRA, which theyve plenty of practise at.

So there is no "C" where the IRA eventually disbands and the remains (criminal thugs) are destroyed by state agencies since they no longer have any support

Mighty_Mouse · 07-04-2005 3:20pm

Where?

Is that not what we are talking about here?There is currently talk of disbanding the IRA in a situation where many MAJOR issues still remain for republicans. ie. policing republican areas, democratic representation in a working lasting government. Rather than minor side-issues which can be sorted out once the IRA disbands.

Yes. They can, and indeed have very valid reasons to do so.

Did I say different? I have a problem with constant criticism of republicans in the light of statements like last night.Your bloody right I'm gonna criticise people who dont attach relevance to it. A lot different than saying they dont have a right to dismiss it though.

This is far from the first time that SF or the IRA have made statements that stop short of what is being demanded, but which are billed as significant.

Do you actually believe that the answer to the norths problems lies in Po'Neill reading a statement written by Tony Blair or Ian Paisley! Never gonna happen. The IRA will use their own words if the time comes.

I'll believe that when there's actual disbandment

Fair enough. I'll believe the norths problems are been resolved when I see a maintained government and the british soldiers leave. When people in both communities feel the same about contacting the police etc

Although its interesting to see that a sentence ago it was "disbandment", and now its already only "the brink of disbandment". What next?

Take it in it's context bonkey.

why should Republican's right their wrongs when no-one else is doing likewise

Suppose it depends on perceptions of what is wrong.

If someone is dying of a severed carotid, and has hypothermia...which do you deal with first? Does dealing with the horrific neck wound mean that you're saying hypothermia isn't a problem, and doesn't need to be dealt with?

I disagree with your analogy bonkey. I would see the issues I outlined as being equally important. Because in reality they are, to both communities. You can't solve one before the other. The premise of the GFA was to have "new beginnings" together, at the same time.

It's the whole decommissioning situation again. Whats stopping the IRA "reinstating" tomorrow, even if they agree to disband?
Does the solution to the north not lie in providing the conditions for guns not firing again - decommissioning, military action - disbandment.

What are we gonna have next, "making sure they're gone" periods or something.

An example that would show that they're no longer willing to be one of the hypocrites alongside everynoe else, but rather are actually going to do what they set out to....thus putting everyone else on the back foot?

"
If we have a ceasefire, the unionist will have no excuses..............if we decommission, the brits will have no excuses, ..........if we disband, everyone will have no excuses.........."""

same repeated crap. I'm happy for the IRA to disband if it was part of developing a society that was going to cultivate lasting equality. <apologies for the pretty words> rather than continual persecution of republicans.

I want unionists to feel welcome in a United Ireland. So the IRA could never exist in the politic struggle for the above ideal. At disbandment republicans have nothing to bargain with. They will have give away all their chips.

In this situation the ball is completely in the hands of the unionists/brits. If they fail to deliver within a decade or so......................there will be a new batch of 20 yr old republicans with ideals of having a say in social and economic issues. (and a united Ireland). I just can't trust the brits or the unionst to prevent that situation happening by pro-actively developing a lasting government.

[article] Gerry Adams Addreses the IRA

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