I'm Probably Preaching to the Converted Here But...

4Xcut

1)You don't have a choice and so there is no point bitching about it.

2)It is true that forcing it on us is not making it more popular but if it was optional you wolud have to do a second europen language. And having experience in irish, french and german i can say that irish is much less technically challenging from a gramatical point and also easier in general if people would just get over the mental thing of "i don't wanna di it cos dere makin' me".

3)The major problem is the poor standard its thaught to in primary level education. I am the only person i know that has a good foundation in irish. I aced my junior cert on my primary school irish, in 5th year it still carries me a good chunk of the way through the honours course. A better standard in primary school would ease so much pressure in 2nd level.

4)Its your F**KING language you ungrateful, americanised, undererving of the title of being irish, petty, small minded people.

4Xcut wrote:

1)You don't have a choice and so there is no point bitching about it.

2)It is true that forcing it on us is not making it more popular but if it was optional you wolud have to do a second europen language. And having experience in irish, french and german i can say that irish is much less technically challenging from a gramatical point and also easier in general if people would just get over the mental thing of "i don't wanna di it cos dere makin' me".

3)The major problem is the poor standard its thaught to in primary level education. I am the only person i know that has a good foundation in irish. I aced my junior cert on my primary school irish, in 5th year it still carries me a good chunk of the way through the honours course. A better standard in primary school would ease so much pressure in 2nd level.

4)Its your F**KING language you ungrateful, americanised, undererving of the title of being irish, petty, small minded people.

1) Wow! Great view on oppression, there. Good luck with that.

2) Yes, god forbid we learn a useful language instead. German is not as complicated as Irish. I've learnt to speak it fluently and it's a walk in the park in comparison.

3) I agree, the way it is taught is pathetic.

4) Not everyone in Ireland is Irish, but they still have to learn Irish (especially if they plan on third level education here. you need irish for some courses).

So what if it is "our" language? It's not coming back.

CoffeeFreak

I think it should be optional. Yes, I know it's part of the culture, but how can you love a language when it's stopping you getting the points you need? I'm crap at irish because of a bad foundation at primary school and up to junior cert, but I really need to get an A in it. If I had the option of doing a second european language I'd probably get an A and not have to spend so much time studying it as I do Irish. Personally, I think the only purpose of the leaving cert is to decide your career, not an oppertunity to force your culture on you :mad: .
Oh yeah, and for most of the people studying it it's usless because they'll never speak it again. English isn't useless, maths isn't useless, that arguement doesn't exist for the other cumpulsory subjects! Sure some people will use it, but the majority won't.

johnnyq

Defo Irish should b compulsary, but it should be taught just like French/German. No stories,poems etc.. Dere should b a compulsary Oral for Junior Cert 2.
To Simi: If we got ourselves copped on we could actually use it. There should b Irish clubs in schools just to speak Irish, cos it would b a laugh and it would help 4 da oral.

Simi

Defo Irish should b compulsary, but it should be taught just like French/German. No stories,poems etc.. Dere should b a compulsary Oral for Junior Cert 2.
To Simi: If we got ourselves copped on we could actually use it. There should b Irish clubs in schools just to speak Irish, cos it would b a laugh and it would help 4 da oral.

Not on my ship! Do you know how much money is pumped into forcing Irish down our throats by the government every year? In excess of €500million. Don't we have a useless health service that could use a bit of cash? Is forcing thousands of students to learn Irish in the hope that maybe a dozen of them will actually use it when they leave school a little less important than making sure old people don't have to spend days on end lying in trolleys in hospital hallways.
The government has to wake up and get its prioritys straight. Maybe channeling some of that money into renovating schools might be a good idea, so we don't have to sit in buildings that if were not for the fact they are school buildings would be condemed and demolished.
And finally a friend of mine can't do Arabic for his leaving because its on at the same time as Irish paper 2. Surely the board of education after forcing him to learn Irish would schedule the Arabic exam at a later date, but no, in their infinite wisdom they have decided that no1 could possibly be doing Irish AND Arabic. Thats my rant for tonight.

*Angel*

Dublinstiof&#225 wrote: »

I dont think it should be an optional subject at all.There are very few speaking it at the moment anyway only for the good owl west of Ireland it would be gone all together. The only reason were speaking English is because of the damn english in the first place. We were sorted at home here with our own language until they invaded, murdered pillaged and plundered ya know how the story goes. Its the only ****in thing we have left of our own and im tired of students sayin they dont want it.Cop on will yous? its a novely! How many other countries around the world can say that they speak the most spoken language in the world (english) but also have their own language to speak amongst themselves. It sucks that so many are takin it for granted ya have to do it anyway so why not enjoy it?
Shure its the handiest thing ever when your on holidays and there is some nosy person listenin into your conversation. Flick into Irish mode and your sorted. Even if your just sayin your name and address to each other ya will prove that ya know theyre listenin and they will either **** off or get pissed off listenin to what they cant understand .....mission accomplished!

I'm in total agreement, well said! and johnnyq is right we shouldn't have to bother learning the stories and poetry.

BTW there was quite a long thread on this subject in After Hours bout a month ago.

Lantis

4Xcut wrote:

1)You don't have a choice and so there is no point bitching about it.

And you don't think it possible we might want to save future students the stress?

4Xcut wrote:

2)It is true that forcing it on us is not making it more popular but if it was optional you wolud have to do a second europen language. And having experience in irish, french and german i can say that irish is much less technically challenging from a gramatical point and also easier in general if people would just get over the mental thing of "i don't wanna di it cos dere makin' me".

How do you know? Loads of people sit the LC without even doing one European language, what makes you think they'd have 2 forced on them?

4Xcut wrote:

3)The major problem is the poor standard its thaught to in primary level education. I am the only person i know that has a good foundation in irish. I aced my junior cert on my primary school irish, in 5th year it still carries me a good chunk of the way through the honours course. A better standard in primary school would ease so much pressure in 2nd level.

Good for you.
It depends on the teacher. It always depends on the teacher. You can't generalise for something like primary school, because each one has its own syllabus.
I went to two primary schools, the first was a small school where one teacher covered 4 classes at a time, and the standard of Irish taught was excellent. The second was a large school, and luckily the class I ended up in had another high standard of Irish, although I'd been told one of the other teachers was absolutely crap at teaching it.

4Xcut wrote:

4)Its your F**KING language you ungrateful, americanised, undererving of the title of being irish, petty, small minded people.

Speaking of petty...
Anyway, like I said before, if it's our language we should be learning to speak it, not learning literature and poetry as we would a dead language. At least the JC course was more practical than that.

Shyster

Has anybody ever even been to the Gaeltacht?? I dont mean a summer course for three weeks where u speak irish when theres a ceannaire around, i mean has anyone ever been to Spiddle or an Daingean?
We went there last summer in fifth year and it was the best laugh ever, the pride people have in their heritage is unreal.
Fair enough if you say WHO CARES ABOUT OUR HERITAGE? but i dont think that students realise that we need to keep up this "image" to bring tourists to the country ie. money.
I hate putting it down to the material things but when people are so ignorant about their patriotism, its the only way to get the point across..
Its an easy honour in the leaving so why complain?? If we dropped it for the leaving its a waste of 11years learning it up to junior cert. and you have to keep up another subject and learn it in detail.
Orals on monday, easy a, so why complain??
oh....this might have something to do with the fact that Im in a gaelscoil...

the smiley one

<Jonny> wrote:

4) Not everyone in Ireland is Irish, but they still have to learn Irish (especially if they plan on third level education here. you need irish for some courses).

So what if it is "our" language? It's not coming back.

This clearly shows that you know nothing about the subject you are discussing. There are such things called "examptions" which you get get, yes to have it, to be exempt from Irish. For example a friend of mine from the middle east who lives here, doesn't have to do it and doesn't need it for getting into college. This is a subject I feel really passionately about because I think it is ridiculous and immature the way people my age are constantly complaining about the fact that it is compulsory. First of all it is our national language (which is currently in the process of trying to be recognised as an official european language, i think). Now I don't know if all these anti-Irish are up for a monoculture but I see making it uncompulsory as a step in that direction. Also people are constantly complaining about how useless it is and how they will never use it. I could have got by in life with primary school 4th class standard maths but yet I am still forced to do it for my LC - where's the sense in that? on top of all of this Irish is a beautiful language which is much more expressive than english, and maybe if people actually went to the bother of learning it then they would realise how important it is

Kevo wrote:

Not everyone is good at languages. Im only good at mathematical/memory based subjects. Same applies for most of the people in my class. So its not just laziness!!!!!

How exactly do you think you learn a language if not through memory???!!!!!

randomfella

the smiley one wrote:

How exactly do you think you learn a language if not through memory???!!!!!

Through application of memory. i find it easy to remember words but sentence construction and grammar lets me down a bit. My intelligence isn't linguistically based. try here maybe if you spend a few minutes on this u will see what im talking about.

the smiley one wrote:

This clearly shows that you know nothing about the subject you are discussing. There are such things called "examptions" which you get get, yes to have it, to be exempt from Irish. For example a friend of mine from the middle east who lives here, doesn't have to do it and doesn't need it for getting into college.

In my school, if you are exempt from Irish you just sit at the back of the class.

Isn't that unfair? Shouldn't those students be doing a different subject instead? They don't even have the option.

Scarinae

<Jonny> wrote:

In my school, if you are exempt from Irish you just sit at the back of the class.

Isn't that unfair? Shouldn't those students be doing a different subject instead? They don't even have the option.

Huh? Can't they just go to supervision or something? that's what they do in my, same if they have a free class

No, there's no "supervision" in my school. If a teacher is absent, a supervisor is assigned to the specific class.

That still leaves them with one less subject than everyone else.

the smiley one

<Jonny> wrote:

In my school, if you are exempt from Irish you just sit at the back of the class.

Isn't that unfair? Shouldn't those students be doing a different subject instead? They don't even have the option.

That is just particular to your school - in my school they take these as supervised "free" classes which doesn't imping on their school work First of all (I'm taking my school again because it's all i know...) in my school we do 8 subjects and many students drop a subject anyway so they only have 7. Also the foreign students could do an extra subject on top of this outside school. And on top of all of that, they should know before they get here that that is the way the system works. getting slightly off topic........

randomfella wrote:

Through application of memory. i find it easy to remember words but sentence construction and grammar lets me down a bit. My intelligence isn't linguistically based. try here maybe if you spend a few minutes on this u will see what im talking about.

I'm kinda getting what you are saying but grammar and sentence structure is linked in with matematical apptitude, so technically you should also be giving out about the fact that maths is a compulsory subject for the LC as well as giving out about irish. If one why not the other?

Oh, i see! CEAD MILE FAILTE! YOU'RE ALL WELCOME HERE! We're a multicultural society! Actually, if you want a decent and untroubled education you had better **** off.

randomfella

the smiley one wrote:

I'm kinda getting what you are saying but grammar and sentence structure is linked in with matematical apptitudeQUOTE]
No sorry your wrong there. Its lingustic intelligence, mathematical apptitude is quite different. see?

the smiley one

<Jonny> wrote:

Oh, i see! CEAD MILE FAILTE! YOU'RE ALL WELCOME HERE! We're a multicultural society! Actually, if you want a decent and untroubled education you had better **** off.

actually we have one of the best education systems in the world. And I never said anything about us being a multicultural society; when foreigners come here to live they have a certain responsibilty to know what they are getting themselves into in the first place i.e.that irish is a compulsory subject for all LC students; thats all (again we are grossly off-topic)

randomfella wrote:

No sorry your wrong there. Its lingustic intelligence, mathematical apptitude is quite different

ok ok so, lets go on the premise that linguistic ability has absolutely NOTHING to do with mathematical aptitude (even though it doesn't say so on the link, it does say that they are different, not necessarily independant) why are you then not arguing that english should also not be made compulsory for the LC. and that it too, along with irish, is useless? (or could it be because you just couldn't be arsed learning the language.................)

exiztone

The Irish syllabus should be drastically changed or permanently removed from the Leaving Cert. As far as I'm concerned, it's the biggest waste of time during my school day.

"It's our heritage, you HAVE to identify with your culture!"
No, it's really not. Irish has been bastardised so much, what's left is not a nice (nor practical) result [N.B. I'm talking in terms of the Leaving Cert here]. They're trying to revive a dead language into the modern world and making it appear more appealing by mixing it with pop culture. For my LC mock, I had an essay on Eminem... I seem to recall words like 'rapadóir' which made me cringe. Then there was a Junior Cert aural which started "Is mise Bart Simpson!" and spoken by some crazy Irish fella... that is NOT our culture... besides, I'm not exactly going to run and do things just because my forefathers did it... let's see, wasn't Druidism the common religion before Christianity took over. I don't remember learning about that aspect of our culture in my religion class... why not? Isn't that our heritage too?

"But you're Irish and it's our first official language!"
Actually, to be fair, my surname sounds more Anglo-Saxon to me, and as far as I know, the family migrated here during the Cromwellian Plantation. That doesn't mean I'm not Irish or anything, I'm just saying most people have Anglo roots. And if by logic, you assume we should speak Irish because the people here spoke it before us... shouldn't every school in the United States make Hopi and other native languages compulsory to learn? After all... it's the heritage of the true Americans... even though the American population would have mostly Caucasian Anglo-Saxon roots...

Irish wouldn't bother me as much if it was approached properly... but a mix of a disgusting course and clueless teachers just doesn't help. French was taught to me starting from the basic grammar, then through rules and exceptions... I can speak it extremely well now; I could have a good genuine conversation with a francophone. Irish... okay, I seem to recall in third year learning about 11 irregular verbs, bar that, they expect you to be able to speak it fluently when they slap a book of bad poetry and short stories in front of you.

What do I do about the problem? Well, naturally I go to my Irish teacher and ask her politely "Miss, could you please help me understand how to make the simple past, present and future tenses?" to which she replies "Ummm, well, I err... I don't know... what do you want to say?". Yes, that's it... just what we need, a human translator that we can't bring into the exams with us *clap clap*. Reminds me of that proverb, "Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish, and you feed him for life."

My teacher and many others are lacking at understanding the language and its structure themselves. I lodged a complaint and had a long talk with my guidance counsellor about her incompetence. What did he tell me? "I'm sorry, she was the only substitute we could find because Irish teachers are so hard to come by!"

So really, the problem is that we need more Irish teachers... but wait? Who is going into teaching these days? It's one of the worst paid jobs ever and looking at what some of the teachers at my school have to put up with every day, I honestly don't think it's particularly rewarding. So that's tracing back to what... the minister of finance or the minister of education, the budget... and thus the state. It's the state that wants us to identify our language, not me... if I had the choice, I wouldn't learn it (that's saying a lot, seeing I don't actually learn it anyway)... so.. if the state is forcing me to do something I don't want to do... and then don't do it properly... of course I'm going to resent it.

I promise the day my exams are over, I won't touch it with a ten-foot pole...

Shyster

I agree, a lot of student's problems with irish stem from the lack of good quality irish teachers in school. Thankfully Im lucky enough to have a cainteoir dúchais teaching me irish who understands it's place in our world today.....basically it wouldnt be in many teenagers top 100 things to do, to speak a language that "isnt their own"...

The only problem with saying that we dont learn irish "properly" is that it cant possibly be taught to us like a foreign language ie. the way we learn french through grammar and then progress to vocab.
It wouldnt work. Most of us have been learning irish since our first day in primary school and by the time we've reached an age where we can learn grammar in the ... 'mathematical way' {for want of a better word}, we're more than halfway through primary school and already have a fairly good grasp of the irish language. At that stage no one wants to sit through hours of grammar classes in a language they can speak coherently already.

I dont think there should be as much poetry and literature on our leaving cert course, at least not the old fashioned ones anyway but there we go again with the culture and heritage thing...
So if ur one of the ones who just plain hates irish-be thankful you're nearly finished with it now. In case you hadnt noticed, Im not one of them!

exiztone

Shyster wrote:

At that stage no one wants to sit through hours of grammar classes in a language they can speak coherently already.

If that were even slightly true, there would be absolutely no need for threads like this... unfortunately that's false. If anything, it's my French class where I can enjoy a good conversation en francais...

As Gaeilge? No chance...

Shyster

Well then again, it just comes down to the teacher's ability/enthusiasm because in my school irish is the only class that we can sit there and speak in irish for the class. Then again its an irish school, prob should have mentioned that earlier, but it doesnt affect how other languages are taught...ie.grammar
Im starting to lose sight of people's points at this stage or why im even posting this...basically irish is great u have to learn it, for now anyway, so get on with it!

randomfella

exiztone wrote:

They're trying to revive a dead language into the modern world and making it appear more appealing by mixing it with pop culture.

Well isn't that what young people identify with nowadays pop culture? I'd certainly prefer something on Eminem than some **** story that i get in german.

exiztone wrote:

Druidism the common religion before Christianity took over. I don't remember learning about that aspect of our culture in my religion class... why not? Isn't that our heritage too?

you couldn't have made a more stupid point if u tried. U learn about that in history u idiot!

exiztone wrote:

"But you're Irish and it's our first official language!"

Your living in Ireland, you're irish and thats the language of ireland. So stop mentioning irrelevant facts about history, were living now and not in the past. Yes the Irish has a wealth history attached to it, and is part of our culture but its a language in use now and thats what were talking about.

exiztone wrote:

Irish wouldn't bother me as much if it was approached properly...

I see where you're coming from, agree that the some poems and stories are far outdated.

exiztone wrote:

My teacher and many others are lacking at understanding the language and its structure themselves.

Obviously having a poor teacher will only curb interest in the subject and hinder u from actually developing your competence in the language.

exiztone wrote:

but wait? Who is going into teaching these days? It's one of the worst paid jobs ever

really? round page 55, plus i heard something today about it costs 5million due to a suplus of teachers in ireland.

Shelga

I despise being forced to learn Irish. I sit in a classroom for 3 hours a week, not listening to a word because it simply doesn't interest me. I could not care less about boring poems that have no bearing on my life whatsoever (and why are the poets always from some godforsaken island? Perhaps because these islanders are the only ones who speak this practically dead language?) All I'm aiming for is a D3 in pass, just to get into college. I could probably sit the exam tomorrow and get my D3, yet I am forced to sit there day after day and learn a load of pointless, useless crap. I'm all for freedom of choice, and I actually do think we should have to learn a bit of Irish, just definitely not the way it is 'taught' at present, and we definitely should NOT be forced to study it after the Junior Cert.

X-SL

I'm doing pass because I only need 6 honouor subjects.. but I'd probably do better in honours because of my teacher for pass. The only reason I don't move up is because Irish is a very big subject and requires alot of time

Assmaster_Kronk

Just to put a different spin on the whole deal, consider this:
The government recently banned 'magic mushrooms'.
The ancient Celts took them before going into battle, and they all spoke irish as well.
So if the sole reason for keeping irish alive is for cultural continuity, then why did the mushrooms have to go!! why do we have to speak the crappy language if they just took away the fun part of old traditions!:D

Thats one way of lookin at it anyway

exiot

As others have said, other countries learn 3 or 4 languages fluently, I am no where near fluent in French but I am Fluent in Irish and obviously English.. Theres no reason why people cant learn Irish. Its part of your culture, without we would be just another America except greener.

I cant believe politicans are even thinking about this matter, its a pure shame.

Rockerette

i got through most of this thread.. but am in a hurry so had to skim through some of the last longer comments...


i can honestly see both arguments, and i think that people who say its pointless are justified in their... anger towards it! based on the way its forced onto us.


Personally, im a hopeless cultural and patriot though...
i love the language, did my Mocks Higher level Paper 1 today, and even as i was doing a comprehension i didnt comprehend, i was still laughing through it...

if i could speak any language fluently, twould be Irish..

im also doing higher French, but damn it i hate french.. its such a... BLEUGH... language...

im not aiming for an A in irish.. hell no... a B3 will be lucky...


the whole "heritage" argument has been put forward a lot already, so i wont start, but i would be so disappointed if this language died out.





my opinion - completely change the way its taught.

katiegordon

I can see both sides of the argument here, but at the end of the day its one of the few things we have “left” if you could even say its left that are truly part of our own culture.
My dream is that someday everyone in Ireland will be fluent in irish. We may not have to use it as our first language but itd be great to be able to use it when we feel. I personally love the “buzz” of speaking it. The sad thing is I rarely get the chance but when I do I find that I know a lot more than I would have thought. For me anyway, reading big long poems of ancient irish makes me feel like I don’t have a clue, but on we should be concentrating on using the language on a day today basis. So basically im agreeing with other people saying the teaching process needs to be changed. Ive been learning Irish for twelve years its unbelievable that im as competent in it as I am in French which ive been doing for 4.

NADA

I would just like to give you a reason why irish is stupid.

• Firsty no matter what,it is a linguistical fact Irish has got a MAXIMUM of 3 generations of left. It is expected to last to more. So what is the point in learning it when it will be gone anyway
• People argue that we are losing a part of our culture anyway. For 99% of the population of this country it has never even been a part and never will be a part of our culture. It's the 21st century. We are going to become more homogenous with the English and Americans due to globalisation. Learning Irish aint going to save it. Get over it!
• If you think that you are going to look stupid in the future by not being able to answer your future kid's homework(as somebody points) you wont. You will be intelligent. The stupid people are the people who waste 13 years of quality education time acquiring something that is utterly useless!
• Don't be fooled by the REVIVAL in Irish. There is none. Viewership of TG4 is going up>TRUE. Is is a fact that this is due to the showing of GAA and Films in English.
• With present rates on immigration it is an absolute certainty that Irish will die out
• We shouldn't be forced to learn anything
• Teaching us about Martin O direan and all the other losers like him ain't doing anything for the language
• Irish is definately dying. In the KErry gaeltacht last year only four families qualified for the deontas( see wikipedia serach gaeilge)
• Is would be much more practical to do a subject with material that we will actually need in out lives or learning another european language especially seen as we may at some time become fedal states
• People who say you need Irish in College are wrong. It is merely an entrance requiement. A tiny fraction have Irish in there content.
• There are people starving in this world and our Government are investing in a DEAD investment. We need to prioritize!
• Irish is the first official language of the State according to the constitution. Dont be fool. This is only a document and if it really were though we would be having this whole debate through Irish
• Life is all about sex and money. Irish can get you money but not as much as any other language
• WHy would I want to learn Irish when all public entertainment is done through English. I can see a decline in the amout of Irish literature do to authors writing throught English to make more profit
• For the minority that do speak Irish good for you. I shouldn't have to learn it for 13 years just as an acknowledment of your existence and the fact that you speak English anyway means I wouldn't need to.
• Did you ever think of the money wasted on translating all the officail documents into Irish that are never going to be read.
• In an age dominated by computer we should be learning programming languages

And those of you who say its our culture. We have no culture. None of us have. It can see it or feel it. It doesn't exist.Its all in our heads. We are all fundamentally the same. everyone is just one big load of biological cells. Where does culture come into it

4Xcut

leggo wrote:

...somebody PLEASE try and justify Irish being mandatory for the Leaving Cert. I just wanna get some thoughts on this matter.

For the love of jesus if 14 years of education is not enough to get yoiu through the ordinary level paper then God help you in later life.