SKYPE a few questions

LegacyUser

who uses skype?

can landlines, mobiles, ring your skype phone?

how much are calls to irish landlines and mobiles?

is there any advantage of having an eircom landline as aposed to skype?

Blaster99

See their site for rates. You can't receive calls in Ireland with Skype. There's another thread on VoIP and check out Blueface.ie. I think they offer the best deal in Ireland and you'll get a phone no as well.

Blaster99

The benefit with a landline is that the sound quality is guaranteed and the uptime on a phone network is extremely high.

Zombrex

paperclip wrote:

who uses skype?

Mostly home users. Businesses would tend to go with a more professional VoIP set up.

Skype isn't technically a VoIP service as it does not use any of the standard VoIP protocols, it uses it's own proprietory protocol that is based on Per to Per (p2p) connections rather than client/server connections (the people who make Skype started with Kazza, a P2P filesharing program). Skype claim that this improves quality of the call (which is true) but this means that Skype is some what limited compared to the "big boys" of VoIP.

Calls to other Skype computers are free, but you cannot call people who are using other VoIP services, even ones using open standards. Because Skype is P2P there is no central server so all your account information (such as address book, call information) is stored on your own machine, which means if you log on somewhere else you lose all that information (not such a big deal for a home user with on machine, but not a useful service for business with multiple machines and users moving around a lot). Also, because Skype does not store any geographical information on where you are services such as 999 are not avalible, which would be one reason why Skype, at the moment, is not a viable replacement for your normal phone in the way other VoIP packages are (www.blueface.ie as far as I know has 999 and other emergency numbers).

paperclip wrote:

can landlines, mobiles, ring your skype phone?

Not at the moment. Skype currently have a service called "SkypeOut" which allows you to make outgoing calls to landlines and mobiles all over the world using your computer and Skype software. You put credit on your account in a similar way to a pay as you go mobile phone. For some places (like calls to USA mobile phones) the price is a lot cheaper than making a call from a land line.

Skype plan to launch a service called "SkypeIn" which would give you an international number and allow people to call you using landline service, but as far as I know that has not been launched yet.

paperclip wrote:

how much are calls to irish landlines and mobiles?

Rate/Minute (inc. Vat)
Ireland € 0.020
Ireland - Mobile € 0.218

The real benefit of a product such as Skype is not local and national calls because if you are in the country they are pretty cheap anyway, but international calls because that is where the Internet can be cut cost the land line phone system doesn't

paperclip wrote:

is there any advantage of having an eircom landline as aposed to skype?

Like I mentioned, Skype at the moment isn't really a viable alternative to your normal phone in the way a proper VoIP service would be.

You can't make emergency numbers.
You can't recieve calls.
No information is stored on you so if log in from a different machine all your contacts etc are lost.
You cannot make "free" calls to other VoIP services, only to other Skype users.

Skype is not really for people serious about VoIP as an alternative to land lines. It is more for people who don't want the hassle of signing up for a VoIP package, who just want to call Aunt Mabel in the US, or a girlfriend in Germany, cheaply and don't really care about other stuff because they still have their Eircom phone line and would never dream of getting rid of it.

tck

Wicknight wrote:

Because Skype is P2P there is no central server so all your account information (such as address book, call information) is stored on your own machine, which means if you log on somewhere else you lose all that information (not such a big deal for a home user with on machine, but not a useful service for business with multiple machines and users moving around a lot).

from site

Windows Version 1.2 Delivers User-Requested Portability and Personalization Enhancements
Luxembourg 23 March 2005 - Skype, the Global Internet Telephony Company™, today launched Skype for Windows version 1.2 (v 1.2) with enhanced user benefits including a centralized Contacts list, which allows users access to their list of contacts from multiple devices from wherever they connect to Skype, and a new 'Getting Started Wizard,' which makes finding friends, importing contacts and making test calls even easier.

LegacyUser

thanks lads.

well my gf lives in london, so skype will certantly save me cash.

but, i'm moving into a new home, and would like a landline.

how about, smart telecom broadband. free line rental, so i can receive calls.

LegacyUser

actually, i'm still a bit confused...

which is better

skype or http://www.blueface.ie/

i take it you need bb to use both ye? or just skype?

Blaster99

If you want to accept inbound phone calls without a phone line, then you want Blueface. If you're only interested in talking to other people who also use computers then Skype is better. You need BB to use both of course. Skype is free to download, free to use to other Skype users, and very easy to install, so why not give it a go? With either you'll need a headset to get anything resembling quality.

robinph

paperclip wrote:

thanks lads.

well my gf lives in london, so skype will certantly save me cash.

but, i'm moving into a new home, and would like a landline.

how about, smart telecom broadband. free line rental, so i can receive calls.

You can now buy a SkypeIn number in London for 30E a year so you could receive incoming calls from that number. There are a few other places you can buy numbers too now.

This would then just be a local call from London as long as you had your PC on at the time, but they also now have a voicemail setup that will take calls for you when your offline also.

Blaster99

Actually I'm not sure you technically need BB for either. A dial-up line should have sufficient bandwidth for voice. I suppose the fact that you either have to pay per minute with dial-up or pay for a minute bundle that costs as much as alway on BB means that dial-up isn't worth it. And you can't do any browsing while you're talking.

Cabaal

robinph wrote:

You can now buy a SkypeIn number in London for 30E a year so you could receive incoming calls from that number. There are a few other places you can buy numbers too now.

This would then just be a local call from London as long as you had your PC on at the time, but they also now have a voicemail setup that will take calls for you when your offline also.

Skype is certainly usable in this situation, shame the voicemail costs extra but for incoming and outgoing calls Skype+skype-in would be your best option.

WhatsGoingOn

paperclip wrote:

thanks lads.

well my gf lives in london, so skype will certantly save me cash.

but, i'm moving into a new home, and would like a landline.

how about, smart telecom broadband. free line rental, so i can receive calls.

You could try UTV Talk, free off peak phone calls to the UK. I know UTV get a lod of bad press around here, but I've never had a problem with them.

Zombrex

tck wrote:

from site

Windows Version 1.2 Delivers User-Requested Portability and Personalization Enhancements
Luxembourg 23 March 2005 - Skype, the Global Internet Telephony Company™, today launched Skype for Windows version 1.2 (v 1.2) with enhanced user benefits including a centralized Contacts list, which allows users access to their list of contacts from multiple devices from wherever they connect to Skype, and a new 'Getting Started Wizard,' which makes finding friends, importing contacts and making test calls even easier.

Well kiss my grits ... shows how much I know

paperclip wrote:

which is better
skype or http://www.blueface.ie/

Depends on what you mean by "better"?

Which service you would need/go for depends on what you are looking to do. If you just want to make the odd random call to someone in another country cheaper than Eircom than Skype is all you need. If you are looking to replace your phone line then a VoIP service from someone like Blueface would be better.

The advantage of Skype is you can try it out right now (so long as you have an internet connection and a microphone). Just download it, create and account and if you want to use Skype Out put some credit on your account.

Maybe if you told us what you were thinking of doing it would be easier to tell you if Skype is suitable or not.

paperclip wrote:

i take it you need bb to use both ye? or just skype?

Skype is rather famous for working quite well over 56kbps modem (because of its P2P technology), where as proper VoIP is better over a BB connection.

Gone West

I also use skype, and I find it works grand, even from my 56k.

LegacyUser

Wicknight wrote:

Maybe if you told us what you were thinking of doing it would be easier to tell you if Skype is suitable or not.

i'd like to have bb internet and be able to ring the uk, cheap or free, so skype seems like the one to go for.

which bb is the best deal?

is smart telecom a good deal? the free line rental would be handy i suppose.

€35 a month.

or is there better deals out there

Blaster99

You can call the UK at local call rates with Telestunt (see www.telestunt.ie) with any phone line. Just dial 1890 943123 and follow the instructions. No catches, I use it all the time.

Smart seems to be the best deal, yes. If you can get it.

LegacyUser

i've no land line, i use a 1520 number from my mobile. works out 30c a min.

:mad:

Blaster99 wrote:

You can call the UK at local call rates with Telestunt (see www.telestunt.ie) with any phone line. Just dial 1890 943123 and follow the instructions. No catches, I use it all the time.

Smart seems to be the best deal, yes. If you can get it.

Dr_MalPractice

Blaster99 wrote:

If you're only interested in talking to other people who also use computers then Skype is better. You need BB to use both of course.

Actually, depending on how good your dial up is, skype can be used. I was talking to a mate of mine yesterday who had just tried it on dial up (from castleisland co. kerry), and the quality of the call was as good as the broadband to broadband calls i make to wales.

i'm not sure how close he is to an exchange exactly, but it'd be a couple of Ks. He was well pleased to get it workin.

causal

Wicknight wrote:

The advantage of Skype is you can try it out right now (so long as you have an internet connection and a microphone). Just download it, create and account and if you want to use Skype Out put some credit on your account.

Umm, you can signup for a free trial with blueface and you get €1.00 free credit - that's about 50 minutes free talktime.
Signup for trial - download free sipphone - install - talk to the US/UK/Canada/etc on landline... for 50 mins - free

Also blueface have a pay-as-you-go option - no monthly rental, just buy credit as you need it, and you can buy as little as €2 (with Skype you have to buy €10 !!). And with blueface you can call Irish 1800-, 1890-, 1901, etc. numbers - you can't do that with Skype.
Plus with blueface you can call other VoIP users free - you can't do that with Skype.

If I was going for pay-as-you-go - I'd go with blueface, not skype,
If I was going with subscription - I'd go with blueface*, not skype+in/out,
If I was going for PC-PC calls - I'd go with any VoIP, not skype.

* I am on a blueface monthly subscription

causal

oscarBravo

Blaster99 wrote:

The benefit with a landline is that the sound quality is guaranteed

Have you called anyone in Crossmolina recently?

Blaster99 wrote:

...and the uptime on a phone network is extremely high.

Unless some tool digs up your line. :mad:

Blaster99 wrote:

If you're only interested in talking to other people who also use computers then Skype is better.

In what way?

Blaster99

Crossmowhat? Come on now, I'm talking about civilised areas here. But seriously, Eircom does actually guarantee voice quality.

I outlined the benefits with Skype in another thread and but in summary it's easy to install, it works through any [real] firewall configuration I've ever come across unlike anything else I've tried, it's P2P so the underlying line speed is as good as it gets, you can tell who's actually online, you can text chat with people, you can do conferencing, you can swap files, you can run multiple instances of it and answer the call wherever you happen to be, and it's free. I use most of these features on a daily basis so it's not a theoretical argument.

oscarBravo

Blaster99 wrote:

Crossmowhat? Come on now, I'm talking about civilised areas here.

Cheeky monkey.

Blaster99 wrote:

But seriously, Eircom does actually guarantee voice quality.

"Eircom" and "guarantee" in the same sentence. Ha.

Blaster99 wrote:

I outlined the benefits with Skype in another thread and but in summary it's easy to install, it works through any [real] firewall configuration I've ever come across unlike anything else I've tried,

I'm not sure I consider "works through firewalls" to be a Good Thing.

Let me explain. Before there were computer networks, there were firewalls in the real world. Still are. They are physical barriers designed to prevent fires from spreading from one place to another. Randomly punching holes in firewalls is a good way to get burned.

Blaster99 wrote:

...it's P2P so the underlying line speed is as good as it gets

I'm deeply uncomfortable with the whole P2P concept. The Internet wasn't designed to work that way. P2P applications break the Internet, and make Vint Cerf cry.[1] As I understand it, Skype circumvents firewalls by using port 80 for voice traffic. That's the HTTP port. Hypertext. Not voice. Bad, bad Skype.

Blaster99 wrote:

...you can tell who's actually online

You can figure that out pretty quickly with SIP when the other party doesn't answer the phone.

Blaster99 wrote:

...you can text chat with people

I can do that with Jabber/MSN/ICQ/...

Blaster99 wrote:

...you can do conferencing

GnomeMeeting/NetMeeting.

Blaster99 wrote:

...you can swap files

Email/FTP.

Blaster99 wrote:

...you can run multiple instances of it and answer the call wherever you happen to be

Also true of SIP, I believe.

Blaster99 wrote:

...and it's free.

As is SIP software and as are SIP-to-SIP calls.

I'm not necessarily as down on Skype as I appear to be (although I do have an aversion to closed, proprietary protocols and P2P in general), but I think a lot of people are being blinded by the no-brainerness of Skype, and very possibly missing the big picture.

[1] May not be true.[2]

[2] The Vint Cerf crying bit, I mean.

Blaster99

When you're sitting inside a company that has blocked practically every outgoing port other than port 80 and the firewall policies are defined by some guy in the States who couldn't care less, you don't really give a toss about the badness of port 80 tunnelling. You just want stuff to work. If P2P delivers better performance, I don't really care too much about your feelings on the matter either. SIP is based around a telephony concept, Skype is based around the Internet. I'm not convinced SIP is going to win. I was when I was working with SIP products but after having used Skype extensively it offers so much functionality that blows standard telephony away that once you've gotten into it you'll view telephones as completely archaic.

Sure there are lots of apps that do bits of what Skype do, but none of them do it all. I don't want all that other crap installed on my machine. Nor do the people I talk to.

Blaster99

I should add that the conferencing aspect of Skype isn't as good as person to person. For some reason there's fairly serious lag on conference calls. It's possible the P2P concept doesn't work with conference calls.

oscarBravo

Blaster99 wrote:

When you're sitting inside a company that has blocked practically every outgoing port other than port 80 and the firewall policies are defined by some guy in the States who couldn't care less, you don't really give a toss about the badness of port 80 tunnelling.

I know you don't, but he does. There are reasons for the way firewalls are set up. You may not agree with those reasons, but then it's not your firewall.

We could argue it around in circles indefinitely, but the bottom line for me is that I'm uncomfortable with the kind of thinking that will write a program that works hard to circumvent all the security measures a network manager has put in place.

Blaster99 wrote:

You just want stuff to work. If P2P delivers better performance, I don't really care too much about your feelings on the matter either.

If it delivers better performance to you at the expense of other users on the same network, you may not care - but they probably will.

Case in point: KCN, our local community network, was working nicely until a few people discovered P2P filesharing. In a short space of time, everyone was experiencing dialup speeds on their broadband connections. Worse, the DSL router that provides the backhaul was locking up periodically, because of trying to keep track of three and a half thousand open ports. I asked everyone on the network to throttle their P2P usage. They didn't. Now P2P filesharing doesn't work at all on this network, and the vast majority of the users - the ones who use the applications designed to respect the structure of the Internet - are happy campers.

Blaster99 wrote:

SIP is based around a telephony concept, Skype is based around the Internet.

Two things: first, we're talking about telephony. Second, P2P applications are not based around the Internet; they're built on top of Internet protocols, but with no respect for the way the Internet works. I draw your attention to RFC 3261, a 270-page description of the Session Initiation Protocol and its relationship with other Internet protocols. Where's the RFC for Skype?

Blaster99 wrote:

I'm not convinced SIP is going to win. I was when I was working with SIP products but after having used Skype extensively it offers so much functionality that blows standard telephony away that once you've gotten into it you'll view telephones as completely archaic.

Only time will tell. Bells and whistles don't impress me all that much. I want my phone to be a phone. If I want to transfer files, I'll use a file transfer program. If I want coffee, I'll use a coffee maker.

Blaster99 wrote:

Sure there are lots of apps that do bits of what Skype do, but none of them do it all. I don't want all that other crap installed on my machine. Nor do the people I talk to.

I kinda see where you're coming from, but I find it a strange attitude, to be honest. You're saying, in essence, that rather than having a multitude of programs to communicate with others, you just want one. AFAIK Skype doesn't do email, but if it did - would you use it instead of your current MUA? Maybe I'm old-fashioned, but I like a program to do what it does, do it well, and do nothing else. I also like to be able to choose my own applications, confident that they will work with whatever applications my correspondents want to choose. I can send a mail from Thunderbird or Evolution, and know with confidence that anyone with any MUA will be able to read them. I can ring someone from any SIP client, or indeed a SIP-compliant hardware phone, and be guaranteed interoperability with any SIP-compliant softphone, hardware handset, ATA or PSTN gateway out there. That's what's important to me.

That, and stopping people from breaking my network.

Blaster99

P2P is a technology that implements peer-to-peer communication that removes the need for centralized servers which cuts down costs. Yes? The fact that it's used by people who like to share files with each other is a totally different topic and I understand your pain. The Skype folks can basically deliver free telephony because beyond the software development costs, it doesn't really cost them anything. Not saying that the software development costs are nil, but unlike a SIP provider they don't need to run much of a service. So they can spend their money on giving me a decent client and they also give me the best possible connection between myself and the person I'm talking to. SIP providers can't.

My point about SIP vs Skype is that SIP is designed for POTS-like applications. Skype embraces what is possible on the Internet. I think the latter will win. But who knows.

bminish

Blaster99 wrote:

The benefit with a landline is that the sound quality is guaranteed and the uptime on a phone network is extremely high.

I am about 5 miles from Castlebar Co Mayo, So far this year my Phone line (an ISDN line) has been down for twelve days. I have on average (over the 10 years or so that I have lived here) at least one week with no phone service every year.

.Brendan

oscarBravo

Blaster99 wrote:

P2P is a technology that implements peer-to-peer communication that removes the need for centralized servers which cuts down costs. Yes?

As with all things, the answer is "sorta". It cuts down someone's costs, but there ain't no free lunch, and someone's paying for something. Skype save on costs by using the processing power and bandwidth of random Skype users' computers instead. If you have a PC with a fast, relatively open connection to the Internet, and you install Skype, you may have just volunteered - whether you realise it or not - to become, in effect, a Skype server.

Blaster99 wrote:

The fact that it's used by people who like to share files with each other is a totally different topic and I understand your pain.

I really have relatively little issue with the users. If anything, I'm hacked off at the developers, because anyone clever enough to develop something that works as well as Skype does ought to know that they're subverting the Internet. The 'net grew from an experimental academic network to an unimaginable worldwide phenomenon through careful planning and research. P2P thumbs its nose at all that careful architecture. My point is: a house of cards doesn't have an architect either.

Blaster99 wrote:

The Skype folks can basically deliver free telephony because beyond the software development costs, it doesn't really cost them anything. Not saying that the software development costs are nil, but unlike a SIP provider they don't need to run much of a service. So they can spend their money on giving me a decent client and they also give me the best possible connection between myself and the person I'm talking to.

They don't give you anything at all. They have designed a subversive (and closed, and proprietary) protocol to make random other Internet users provide you with a service. It seems to work - for the moment - but I can't see it lasting.

Blaster99 wrote:

My point about SIP vs Skype is that SIP is designed for POTS-like applications. Skype embraces what is possible on the Internet. I think the latter will win. But who knows.

I think you misunderstand what SIP is all about. SIP doesn't care what you use the connection for; it simply negotiates a connection between you and another party, using protocols that are open, well-designed and well-understood. What you do with that connection is the subject of a raft of different protocols.

SIP doesn't carry phone calls. SIP is a session initiation protocol.

As to Skype winning: if Skype does to my network what Limewire & co. did to my network, it will be the next thing blocked at the firewall. Not because I've anything against Skype per se, but because I've a network to run.

Peanut

The great innovation of Skype is that it works so well behind an address translation firewall without having to forward any ports etc. for incoming calls.

It does this by some clever use of p2p techniques, which makes it a lot easier for the average user to install without fecking about with connections to their DSL modem etc.

If you are worried about non-http traffic being encapsualted over port 80 then I would say it's a bit late to be concerned about that kind of thing...

oscarBravo

Peanut wrote:

The great innovation of Skype is that it works so well behind an address translation firewall without having to forward any ports etc. for incoming calls.

SIP can do that too. It's called a SIP proxy, and it plays nice with firewalls instead of ignoring them.

Peanut wrote:

It does this by some clever use of p2p techniques, which makes it a lot easier for the average user to install without fecking about with connections to their DSL modem etc.

Your clever P2P techniques are my major network stability headache. Did you read the thread?

Peanut wrote:

If you are worried about non-http traffic being encapsualted over port 80 then I would say it's a bit late to be concerned about that kind of thing...

On the contrary, if it becomes a problem on my network, I'll prevent it.

Peanut

oscarBravo wrote:

SIP can do that too. It's called a SIP proxy, and it plays nice with firewalls instead of ignoring them.

Which more than likely needs the firewall admin to install.

oscarBravo wrote:

Your clever P2P techniques are my major network stability headache. Did you read the thread? On the contrary, if it becomes a problem on my network, I'll prevent it.

I read most of the thread, for what it's worth I think there are far greater problems on a network than managing Skype.
Saying that it's "subverting the internet" is a bit over the top to say the least, the Internet must have been "subverted" many times over at this stage!