Unfair NCT failures

Seth Brundle

Recently a friend filed their NCTfor (amongst other reasons) having one headlamp dimmer than the other. A few years ago this also happened myself (but fail/advisory) where a new OEM light failed for being 'too bright'.
I contacted the NCT and have since been told that they don't check this so how did I and my friend get the failures?
Has something similar happened anyone here and for what reason?
[I would rather keep the discussion to your own experiences.]

RicardoSmith

I got failed on a registration plate light. I went off and got a bulb, but then realised it was a iffy connection. Tapped the bulb with my finger and it stayed on. Passed the 2nd time. There was so many things wrong with the car, I was delighted that they only reported the bulb. They failed to notice that the main beams came on when you pressed the brake pedal and the car didn't stop running when you removed the ignition key. Lots of other stuff too. They also missed 4 bald tyres on my Dads car.

BrianD3

As regards one light being too bright, I cannot find any mention of this in the NCT tester's manual in relation to headlamps/dipped beams. However, it is there in relation to side lamps - both lamps must be of the same intensity. Seems a bit nonsensical to apply this only to side lamps. Are you sure that your friend didn't fail on side lamps? They are part of the headlight unit in almost all cars these days. If a car were to fail on side lamp intensity, the visual defects section of the NCT report would say something like:

ITEM: Side Lamps (Front Position Lamps) (29)
DESCRIPTION: Side Lamps (6)
REASON: Not of the same dimensions and intensity

The 29 and 6 refer to the section and paragraph in the manual. The reference to the manual means that it isn't really possible for the tester to "make up" something that isn't in the manual in order to fail a car. The manual is not a legal document but it is an official publication by the DOT so there should be no ambiguity.

Personally, I have always found the NCTS to be professional, competent and transparent. And it's not as if every car I put through the NCT sails through, quite the opposite, I've had numerous failures but all have been fair.

TBH I am often suspicious when people complain about the NCT. People will make up all kinds of excuses/lies/exaggerations as to why they failed the NCT. They wil try to convince others and even themselves that the tester was out to get them, there is a quota, they never pass anyone on a friday etc. etc. Very similar to the misinformation that people spread about driving testers after they fail their driving test. People don't like to accept that they failed their driving test because of their crap driving or that they failed the NCT because their car is an unroadworthy ball of sh1te

People can be such dumbasses. Last time I was in getting my NCT there was a woman in reception who was in for a 2nd full test on her car. It had previously failed on emissions but she hadn't brought it back within 30 days so had to get a full test rather than a retest on emissions only. Of course she was moaning about this and blaming NCTS even though she had only herself to blame - NCTS clearly state that all retests must be done within 30 days. Anyhow, her car goes in for its full test and it fails on emissions again. On hearing the news, she goes bananas at the tester and again starts blaming NCTS and moaning about the terrible injustice of it all :rolleyes: I wasn't surprised that it failed though. I had earlier asked her what she had gotten done to the car to try and pass emissions and all she'd had done was a new airfilter which was fitted by her busband. In other words she spent about a tenner on the car. Obviously too tight to bring it to a garage and get some proper diagnosis done on it. Only has herself (and her husband) to blame.

"Sob stories" like this are commonplace. Sit in any NCT reception for a while and you'll hear loads of them.

BrianD3

lomb

BrianD3 wrote:

all she'd had done was a new airfilter which was fitted by her busband. In other words she spent about a tenner on the car.

lol, it and new plugs/ valve timing/lift can work where the emissions are marginal but anything else means new valves, or rings.
probably another poorly looked after irish car thats never had an oil change meets its maker, good ridance i say.

Tivoli

are you allowed to drive the car for those 30 days???

edit....
oh and anyone know if you have front fog lights, do they have to work?
cause i never use them, and 1 lense is cracked,

RicardoSmith

BrianD3 wrote:

....Personally, I have always found the NCTS to be professional, competent and transparent. And it's not as if every car I put through the NCT sails through, quite the opposite, I've had numerous failures but all have been fair.

TBH I am often suspicious when people complain about the NCT. People will make up all kinds of excuses/lies/exaggerations as to why they failed the NCT. They wil try to convince others and even themselves that the tester was out to get them, there is a quota, they never pass anyone on a friday etc. etc. Very similar to the misinformation that people spread about driving testers after they fail their driving test. People don't like to accept that they failed their driving test because of their crap driving or that they failed the NCT because their car is an unroadworthy ball of sh1te ....

...likewise its as unresonable not to accept that its possible for someone to get a bad tester or bad NCT test...in life nothing is impossible.

Hate to say it, but personally I've noticed the quality of the NCT has improved now that theres more non nationals doing it.

Seth Brundle

My E30 320i failed on May 8th 2002 for the following (amongst others):-
Item:- Head Lamp Condition (30)
Description:- Intensity(4)
Reason:- Ineffec./insufficien
Location:- Offside Front(right)
This light had been replaced about two weeks prior to the test due to a stone smashing the original one. It was OEM, had correct branded bulb in it. It was however not faded like the other sides light.
Now, after hearing of a friend who suffered the same fate I had contacted info@ncts.ie and got dealt with by someone within SGS (who run the NCTS). Anyway, below is the conversation:-

me wrote:

Im trying to seek some clarity on light intensity within the NCT.
Is there a recommended light intensity range from front headlamps for cars and if so what is it?
Is there a recommended light intensity range from rear lights for cars and if so what is it?
If yes, how is the intensity measured?
Is it a failure to have one light (on front or rear) brighter than the other?
Similarly, is it a failure to have one light (on front or rear) dimmer than the other?
If yes, how is the difference between the two measured?
Thanks
Killian Bannon

SGS Customer Service Dude wrote:

Dear Killian,
Thank you for your e mail. If you could please forward me your address I will happy to sent you our information regarding the light testing.

Kind Regards,

I promptly recieved some nicely printed off but useless rubbish

me wrote:

I received your factsheet this morning - thanks.
However, I am still confused by the methods used by NCTS personnel in evaluating light intensity and how they manage to fail cars over it. The factsheet does not refer to this are at all.
Some cars fail the NCT due to having one light brighter than the other.
Why is this and how is the light difference calculated?
What is the maximum difference allowed between lights?
What is the recommended light intensity for lights?
What are the minimum and maximum allowable amounts of light from a headlamp?
Thanks

SGS Dude wrote:

Dear Killian,

Thank you for your e mail. I have spoken to our Technical Manager who in return has advised me that we are not measuring light intensity at all.

I trust this clarifies the matter for you,

Kind Regards,

So apparently they don't fail people over dim headlamps! Hmmm...
In that case how did my friend fail?
And how did I get a fail/refusal for having a brand new headlamp that was according to the tester 'too bright'!

BrianD3

kbannon, I'd say that the correspondance you received from NCTS is technically correct but not very helpful. It would be true to say that they don't "measure" the intensity of your headlights. There are no limits set down for intensity and no equipment is used. However the tester will look at your lights and will fail them if it appears to him that the "intensity is obviously weak" This is in section 30 paragraph 4 of the testers manual.

However, this still doesn't answer why you were failed for too bright a headlight as opposed to too weak. It was definitley the bright headlight you failed on? Perhaps the tester made a mistake with the location. Maybe he meant to fail you on your weak light but when producing the report put down the wrong location, confused himself and then told you that you failed because your headlight was "too bright"

BrianD3

Seth Brundle

BrianD3 wrote:

However, this still doesn't answer why you were failed for too bright a headlight as opposed to too weak. It was definitley the bright headlight you failed on? Perhaps the tester made a mistake with the location. Maybe he meant to fail you on your weak light but when producing the report put down the wrong location, confused himself and then told you that you failed because your headlight was "too bright"

BrianD3

I was talking to him - definitley 'too bright'.
Anyway, going by the SGS guy's last mail where he states "I have spoken to our Technical Manager who in return has advised me that we are not measuring light intensity at all.", if this is the case then it would also apply to visual checks. Anyway a visual check still needs an acceptable range limit surely?

Banjo013

All "Irish Ripoff" stuff aside, I really do think at this stage that the NCT is now a money generating scam for NCTS. Why else would they have done away with the "Fail/Advisory" category if it wasn't for the purposes of getting you back in for a re-test and paying €27 ?

I failed a few weeks ago because the rear centre seat belt was wedged between the seat back and the seat base. Unbelieveable.

Anyway I suspect the testers are being told to make sure something is wrong with cars, to ensure they're back for a re-test. A serious accusation by me I know - but think about it. In the last year or so, I don't know of a single person who has passed the NCT first time. And it's all for reasons which in fairness do not make the car unsafe on the road.

Friend of mine for example, was failed for having the words "Baile Atha Cliath" on a KE reg car. He had the rear plate replaced and the maker screwed it up.

But I mean come on - how does that make the car unfit for use on public roads ???!

BrianD3

kbannon wrote:

I was talking to him - definitley 'too bright'.
Anyway, going by the SGS guy's last mail where he states "I have spoken to our Technical Manager who in return has advised me that we are not measuring light intensity at all.", if this is the case then it would also apply to visual checks. Anyway a visual check still needs an acceptable range limit surely?

They're not measuring it at all, but they are checking it I still maintain that there is a difference between the two terms. Also, there are lots of things that are subject to checks in the NCT which don't have any limits written down and are based on the tester's opinion. The checks are subjective and different testers might have different opinions but they should be broadly the same if they have received the same training.

Banjo013 wrote:

Why else would they have done away with the "Fail/Advisory" category if it wasn't for the purposes of getting you back in for a re-test and paying €27 ?

Fail advisories were never supposed to be in the test. The NCT was watered down with fail advisories for the first few years in order to make it easier and to reduce the outcry/political fallout. I welcome the abolition of the fail advisories - headlamp aim used to be a fail advisory yet badly aligned headlamps are a major cause of annoyance and danger on the roads. It goes without saying that most owners ignored the "advisory" part of Fail/advisory

BrianD3

Banjo013

Come to think of it, when I was in for my test (Fonthill) there was a car up on the ramp, an Octavia I think it was. Was an '05 reg. and it really looked like it had just rolled off the production line. Story was the owner was going to be using it as a taxi, and apparently they all get tested regardless of age.

I don't have a problem with that really .... some taxis out there are years old and it's only right to make sure they're not a death trap if the public in general are going to be travelling in them.

But a car that's brand new and looks like it's never even been driven ??

I'm starting to slide off topic there, sorry !

Seanie M

My future brother-in-law recently had his '99 Audi A3 in for the NCT. Failed because he didn't have "Gailiamh" on the front number plate as well as the emmisions (but only just). Can you beleve that? As if your county of registration would safe you in a crash! But its true, it was marked on the form along with the emmissions.

He just got a label machine, printed it out, and stuck it to the number plate. Passed the second time.

:rolleyes:

magpie

oh and anyone know if you have front fog lights, do they have to work?
cause i never use them, and 1 lense is cracked,

No, my car passed despite having one front fog light cracked and filled with water (!) and neither of them working. Fog lights are not something that is tested either way apparently.

Hate to say it, but personally I've noticed the quality of the NCT has improved now that theres more non nationals doing it.

Agreed. I had an East German mechanic the morning I went in. He gave the car a very thorough going over, which is the whole point of the exercise. Who wants to drive an unroadworthy car?

blastman

That ****e with the county name in Irish above the registration makes me laugh. There's a big letter or two telling you what county the car is registered in, what's the point of the little Gaeilge crap and what has it to do with the roadworthiness of the car?

Seth Brundle

In fairness blastman the litle Gaeilge crap is down to the fact that the NCTS is checking for road-legal plates.
However, this isn't really what I wanted to discuss in this thread.

frodi

blastman wrote:

That ****e with the county name in Irish above the registration makes me laugh. There's a big letter or two telling you what county the car is registered in, what's the point of the little Gaeilge crap and what has it to do with the roadworthiness of the car?

I heard that you do not get any penalty points if you speed as gaeilge!

blastman

kbannon wrote:

In fairness blastman the litle Gaeilge crap is down to the fact that the NCTS is checking for road-legal plates.
However, this isn't really what I wanted to discuss in this thread.

I know, but they aren't even consistent in that. I got a FAIL/ADVISORY once because my rear number plate didn't have the Gaeilge beag. Two years later with exactly the same plate, I pass.

When those plates were introduced they didn't have to have the lettering at all.

Anyway, sorry for going off-topic.

DubTony

Staying off topic.

blastman wrote:

That ****e with the county name in Irish above the registration makes me laugh. There's a big letter or two telling you what county the car is registered in, what's the point of the little Gaeilge crap and what has it to do with the roadworthiness of the car?

The reason the Irish name was added to the reg plate was because some Irish speakers took offence that the county on a reg plate was identified by the first letter of it's name in English.

As a result, there were quite a few cars going around Dublin with a BAC instead of a D in the middle of the plate. Some even went as far as adding a fada on the A (BÁC) These idiots should have been prosecuted off the road and into jail for changing the identification number of a roadgoing vehicle . Instead their whims were pandered to and now we have the situation where you can fail a roadworthiness test if your car doesn't have Irish on it.

Ironically, when the Year - County - Number plates were introduced, dealerships were banned from putting their name onto the reg plate as had been common practice up to the end of 1986. This was to ensure that reg plates would be clear and easy to read. Only in Ireland.

Anyway, why is it that when you get a car registered, you aren't given the "proper" reg plates for the vehicle by the government, as in the USA. We sure pay enough to cover it.

Tony

Banjo013

Think at the end of the day the NCT is one of the best things that ever happened to Irish motoring.

But with something like NCT, it's important to not alienate the customers and make them buy into it, so everyone feels like they're actually getting something out of it.

It's when these stuid failures come about that people get pi**ed off with it. The test should be about roadworthiness - making sure the car is safe to use in a public place around other cars and other people. This number plate thing for example is not necessary.

Fair enough - improperly aligned headlamps, damaged tyres, bad emissions, ineffective seatbelts .... while they may seem insignificant, they do effect the performance of the car and may effect others on the road. But when things start to get silly, well it just comprimises public opinion towards the whole process.